"You have talent. I hate you."

Oceanborn · 04-04-2006 08:19 PM

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I see stuff like this on these boards all the time. Am I the only one bothered by it?

Honestly, what the heck kind of compliment is this supposed to be? And where does this attitude even come from? Do people think that "talent" is some kind of elusive thing that is bestowed upon the chosen ones? Don't people realize that anyone can learn to draw? The reason that the best people on this board are the best is that they WORK at it. So it's like you're insulting their hard work.

Take one of my favorites, Jomaro Kindred. Now, I've been drawing a long time, have a degree in it, etc. But I don't think my super hero drawings are as good as Jomaro's. Why? Because the drawing gods have smiled upon him and not to me? NO! Because he DRAWS MORE THAN I DO. He has more patience with his artwork than I do. I pick at a drawing for a half hour and then move on to a 3d model and then I try to level my Mind/Psy Dom and then I watch Spongebob with my kids and then I might come back and pick at my drawing for another half hour. While I was doing all this, Jomaro was DRAWING. I try to tell this to my students all the time: being successful is mostly about how much you work. "Talent" accounts for a very small portion of your results and has more to do with how quickly you get better. It doesn't affect your "upper cap" as it were.

So let's cut the crap with the "You have talent. I hate you." stuff. If you REALLY want to draw, go get some pencils and paper, do a Google search for "drawing tutorials," go to the bookstore and get some books that look like they'll teach you what you want to know, and GET DRAWING!!! If you don't want to devote the kind of time that Jomaro and Doug Shuler and others devote to it, then just accept that you're not going to be as good as they are and stop hating on them for their hard work.

Seriously, what do others think about this? Am I overreacting?

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IMHO, not everyone can draw.

I go to an art university, and not to be boastful, but not everyone can draw...well. Everyone can draw to a certain degree, but it depends on what people would be looking for. Everyone can draw, but some are just better than others.

I'm only speaking on a professional standpoint, and out of honesty. Some have it, some don't.

But as an artist, one should not limit theirselves as to what they can or cannot do. Art shouldn't be about or have rules whatever your media may be.

The_PMD · 04-04-2006 08:43 PM

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IMHO, not everyone can draw.

I go to an art university, and not to be boastful, but not everyone can draw...well.

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Nobody is saying that every person can actually draw. The point many of us is making is that everyone is capable of LEARNING to draw. Whether or not you learn is a matter of how interested and dedicated you are to it, and where your talent level puts you in terms of how much work is required. Some people learn faster.

Take Rowr. Im not ready to say that her drawings are on a Jomaro level yet, but it's clear she has talent. Why? Well, one, how quickly she's improved. Two, I posted pencils of my villain and she gave me an excellent critique of it. Usually the first step of learning how to draw is learning how to see, and she obviously sees drawings very clearly. That's talent. On the other hand, I had a student in a 3d modeling class this past quarter who, I realized, lacked the ability to conceptualize in 3d, which is a skill a lot of people come into my school with. We would look at a source picture of, say, a statue, and this guy had no idea whatsoever what was on the hidden side of the statue. So, that's a low talent level. But I still think he'll be able to model in 3d if he really wants to. It's just going to require a lot more work out of him than almost everyone else in the class.

Kenny_Z · 04-04-2006 08:44 PM

I'm not so sure about "talent" not playing a large part in it. I was heavy into 3D art and aquired a fair amount of fame on the next with my NX-01 model. I worked with that day in and day out for years, but I do have a small talent for 3d programs. Then, a new guy gets hired on at work. This guy can draw, better than anyone I've ever seen to this day. The thing is, he's always been able to draw. I've seen pictures of his childhood sketches. While I was making stick figures and triangle cars this guy was sketching portraits of anything that would sit still. Granted, he's a heck of alot better than he was then but still, the way he could capture angles, shading, and perspective was beyond anything I can do outside a 3d program. His 5 year old crayon drawings are better than stuff I've seen else where (I don't get to look around these forums much so please don't take offense.)

Yeah, hard work does pay off but natural talent figures in to be more than just a way to advance faster than the next guy.

Kenny_Z · 04-04-2006 08:48 PM

Oh, and I've been on the receiving end of the "You have talent. I hate you." line a few times. I've always taken it as a compliment in the highest degree

Writer_Tina · 04-04-2006 11:32 PM

I'm going to have to come down on the side of there being such a thing as talent as well as skill.

I say this because I don't have it. There was a point at which I was sketching endlessly, and while I did improve, I never got to a point where I could consider myself more than moderately able to draw. I don't suck; I'm not all that good.

This is fine by me, since I still find it fun, but if you compare my best drawings to what some people here turn out regularly, there's still a VAST difference.

So while I agree that drawing is one of the many things anyone can learn to do to some extent (along with any artistic pursuit), I still think there's such a thing as inherent talent. I don't really buy into the idea that all people are born with identical ability for all things.

Please note: this is not the same as saying that everyone with talent learns to exercise this talent. I'm well aware the really good artists also have to practice to get there. But where 'there' is can differ from person to person.

That having been said, I would say to anyone who doesn't feel they have talent: never let that possibility discourage you. You do not have to be able to turn out perfect drawings to turn out good ones, or have fun doing it, any more than you need to be able to play Mozart in your sleep to be able to play some songs on the piano.

Besides, if I had a nickel for every person who thought they had no talent or their work sucked who I thought was utterly wrong, I would have enough money to replace my computer with something that can actually run CoV well.

One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.

The_PMD · 04-04-2006 11:39 PM

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I'm going to have to come down on the side of there being such a thing as talent as well as skill.

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Just for clarity's sake, I don't think anyone ever said there was no such thing as talent. My original contention was not that it doesn't exist but that it played a more minor role than hard work. My opinion is that talent reduces the amount of work that one has to do to be good, and sets the upper limit of how good you can be. But I believe that everyone can learn to draw to some extent. And that learning to draw is a better use of one's time than sitting around wishing you had talent. Unless you want to become Alex Ross, chances are you have enough talent to make drawings that will please you if you're willing to work at it.

Mary_H · 04-05-2006 05:45 AM

I lurk here a lot, admiring the art.. I strongly disagree with the notion that art is a magical gift. It downplays the artist's hard work. I'm not a fan of fuzzy Carebear hang-it-on-the-fridge comments, but if you're going to attribute a successful piece of art to a God-given gift, a simple "you're blessed" is better than "you're blessed and I'm not." How do you even respond to that?

Greymist · 04-05-2006 05:56 AM

In art like in all thing there is talent and there is work.

Take sports, lets say golf the very first time I played golf I had difficulty hitting the ball off the tee. I played 180 or so. After a few years of playing a few times every summers I generally play around 120 That is lack of talent and lack of work. I would love to play golf better but I will not invest the time to do so.

My brother on the other hand (who by the way has always been good at any sports) Played passably the first time he ever tried (110) and after a few years of playing very irregularly he plays in the low 90s That is talent without work

I have a cousin who actually work in a golf course (he is the grounds keeper) because of that he gets to play most everydays he plays in the high 70s that is average talent with some work

Now a player such as Tiger Wood Hits loads of balls , Plays most days , actually analyses everything he does and beats regularly other players who do the same. That is talent and work together.

Art is the same some poeples will never be any good at it because they have little or no talent AND will not work at it. SOme will be passable without effort but will not work at it and never will get any better. Some have some talent AND pick it up as a hobby they will become good but by no mean "Artists" (By the way this is where I would put myslef) And finally some have talent AND work HARD at it. Those are the true artists and we do have a few here who's work I envy.

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rscott6666 · 04-05-2006 06:21 AM

Right. What some may not realize, is that saying "I hate you" can be taken wrong, even when the artist in question knows that the other doesn't really hate them.

Is the person jealous of the artists talent, or the years of work in developing the talent? The artist may take it to be the former, while the person may mean the latter (or both).

And as being born with a gift is nothing to be proud about (imho), the artist may view this as shallow, even demeaning praise. hereas the person saying it may not realize the negative implication it may have.

(edit: Its especially easy for the artist to take it wrong when the quote mentions talent, which i forgot while writing this reply).

Escher · 04-05-2006 07:54 AM

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The problem for most of us is that we honestly don't want it bad enough to do the work needed to achieve it. Other things in life are more important to us than learning how to draw - so we do those things instead of drawing.

But boy, oh boy - are we impressed with those of you who DO draw.

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Figured Cuppa and others might get a kick out of a similar story. Back in 2001, there were two "Roller Coaster Simulation / Designers" that came out. One of them, called NoLimits was essentially a 3D CAD program for Roller Coasters. Now, I had NO experience with CAD, the program had a VERY steep learning curve, and I never did get "good" enough at it to really be a competant designer. Why? Well, to be honest, I simply did not have the combination of time and desire to get that good... but I sure enjoyed watching OTHER people create amazing coaster designs.

What I did find was that now when I go to a park and see a new coaster, I have a new level of appreciation for the amount of design work that goes into making these rides... because I've at least attempted to do it myself.

-Escher
I STILL WANT MY RESCUE THE ROLLERCOASTER MISSION CUPPA!!!

"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
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Ashes_NA · 04-05-2006 10:47 AM

Shhh. Keep it down. Don't let the people know they can have talent too. There are already too many artists in the world for anyone to make any money at it. Like one of my writing profs used to say: "If you can be discouraged, you should be."

Plasma · 04-05-2006 12:29 PM

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Here at NCsoft we share an office with Destination Games, the development house working on Tabula Rasa, and I often run into a concept artist who spends a large portion of his time drawing concept art for the game in a common area of our building. People will often walk by and gawk at some of the most amazing pencil drawings they have ever seen and chat with Brad as he casually fleshes them out. The thing I have heard him say over and over again is the same as some other people here have mentioned, "almost anyone can draw decently - if they are willing to work at it."

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(1) He said "decently", and you said, "most amazing pencil drawings you have ever seen". Those are not the same.

(2) "Anyone could do it if they worked at it" is pretty standard modesty at work, and taking it as something else is like assuming that someone who says, "How's it going?" as you pass them in the hall is genuinely concerned about how you are and would like to hear the story of your joy or misery, as the case may be.

The_PMD · 04-05-2006 10:59 PM

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Shhh. Keep it down. Don't let the people know they can have talent too. There are already too many artists in the world for anyone to make any money at it. Like one of my writing profs used to say: "If you can be discouraged, you should be."

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I'm an art teacher. I understand what you're saying, but you're barking up the wrong tree!

The fact is that most people will choose not to put in the time to become good at it, so I think there's little to worry about. And to the couple that are inspired by the artists on this thread telling them to give it a try, I wish them the best. Most of them aren't going to be trying to get paid for it, but may discover something new about themselves and have a more enriched life. I've been drawing since I was 4 and it has always been something that gave me comfort when I needed it. If I can help a couple of people find that in themselves, I can go to sleep happy at night.

Great Briton · 04-06-2006 01:41 AM

Alright... if I wanted to give it a go, where would I start? Any books or tutorials I should look at?

Tenryuu · 04-06-2006 07:04 AM

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I completely disagree. There is no such thing as the inherent ability to 'draw well'. Nobody just picks up a pencil and knows how to draw hands correctly, even the good artists.

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I could never draw real people. I still can't, even after taking quite a few art classes over the years. However, my ability lay in the region of animated characters. That's fine with me. I know I'm good at what I can do, so having a limit doesn't bother me. You can't learn everything laid in front of you, whether you want to believe it or not. Time and experience can solve a few things. Not everything.

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Simply put, everyone starts off at crayon drawings. A few kids might be a bit more coherent in what they draw with crayons, but from a practical standpoint nobody starts out ahead. There's no magic gene that lets someone immediately draw the Virtuvian. Someone with "lots of talent" still has to start from scratch and learn the basics of anatomy the hard way; they start at 0 the same as non-artists.

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It's not a matter of starting out at different points. It's a matter of growth and potential. I believe that everyone has the potential to be 'good,' but only a few have the potential to be 'great.'

Like singing or fighting. Some people just... won't ever be able to sing, due to lack of control, no matter how long they practice. Some people could take self-defense classes for years of their life and never perfect it, due to a lack in reflexes or body strength. While you can always gain/refine muscle or practice your reflexes, you won't be able to achieve the same level as someone else... because we're all born with different flaws and perfections. It's the exact same with drawing/painting/etc.

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The kids you knew in school who were better at drawing were so because they wanted to draw, and had tons of drawings back at home to show for it.

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Back in school, I was one of those kids.

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If any talent is involved, it's only in realizing how much you suck at X, and having the drive to improve yourself until you are really good at X.

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Unless, of course... you just can't get the hang of X and the closest you can get is W.

The_PMD · 04-06-2006 11:44 PM

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Alright... if I wanted to give it a go, where would I start? Any books or tutorials I should look at?

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I'm going to go with a couple of classics here:

Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...Fencoding=UTF8

Dynamic Figure Drawing (Hogarth)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082...F8&s=books

Great Briton · 04-07-2006 01:56 AM

You star, cheers. I'll look into 'em over the weekend.

I'm now galvanised into action!

....of course, I know I'll suck..... LOL

Minimal · 04-07-2006 06:54 AM

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I'm not a fan of fuzzy Carebear hang-it-on-the-fridge comments, but if you're going to attribute a successful piece of art to a God-given gift, a simple "you're blessed" is better than "you're blessed and I'm not." How do you even respond to that?

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The proper response to that is "No [censored]. I've noticed."

I know what my skills are and art isn't one of them. ((I have others though )) Mostly due to a lack of hard work.

Rowr has talent and is willing to put in the hard work. ((and you're not half bad now tiggeress))

Poison has talent and has damn well put in the hard work. It shows.

However I've seen many artists who did not have the 'talent' but put in a hell of a lot of work and produce gorgeous pieces. Artistic talent is like being good at math. It helps but if you're willing to work twice as hard, you too can add 3 and 5 and get 9. With even more work you can get 8.

Rowrsie · 04-07-2006 06:56 AM

2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2. *nods*

deadmeat_NA · 04-07-2006 07:02 AM

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Alright... if I wanted to give it a go, where would I start? Any books or tutorials I should look at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go with a couple of classics here:

Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...Fencoding=UTF8

Dynamic Figure Drawing (Hogarth)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082...F8&s=books

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I havent ever had any art books, with the exception of a Blue Line Art perspective book...but I am very left brained and draw as such. You think either of these books could expand upon whatI know, or do you think theyd screw me up?

sample* http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/2...rlfinal9wy.jpg

Dark Pontiff ~ lvl 50 Dark Armor / Spines scrapper
Herd the World ~ lvl 50 Fire/Ice Tank
Glorified Violence ~ lvl 50 Dark Melee / Energy Shields brute
Redheaded Avenger ~lvl 50 fire/kin Controller

Great Briton · 04-07-2006 07:59 AM

You so don't need any tutorials....

Thor's Assassin · 04-07-2006 04:36 PM

Ok how did I miss CuppaJo coming into my section of the forums.

I'm slackin!

*gets CuppaJo a coffee*

there you go!

coldfire_kaiser · 04-07-2006 05:36 PM

It only bothers me that my art system and scanner suck, or else I could show some of my awesome work on here...

Thor's Assassin · 04-07-2006 05:39 PM

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It only bothers me that my art system and scanner suck, or else I could show some of my awesome work on here...

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Okay now that bothers me too.

I wanna see....

The_PMD · 04-07-2006 07:58 PM

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Alright... if I wanted to give it a go, where would I start? Any books or tutorials I should look at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go with a couple of classics here:

Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...Fencoding=UTF8

Dynamic Figure Drawing (Hogarth)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082...F8&s=books

[/ QUOTE ]

I havent ever had any art books, with the exception of a Blue Line Art perspective book...but I am very left brained and draw as such. You think either of these books could expand upon whatI know, or do you think theyd screw me up?

sample* http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/2...rlfinal9wy.jpg

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I disagree with the idea that any book with knowledge in it can "screw you up." You just have to learn what to take and what to leave. (Which may be a skill in itself)

But if you're interested in improving your ability to draw stylized/heroic human characters from your imagination, that Hogarth book is tremendous.