Two things...


Aaron123

 

Posted

Well, maybe it'll help curb the yelling about how defiance and vigilance are useless at high levels, particularly against av's


 

Posted

Actually, I think Defenders get a bigger boost from Vigilance if you're dead.

So... this could really be seen as a nerf to Vigilance!

/e protest

Vigilance < Everything


 

Posted

Err.. I don't think the boost from Vigilance between 1% and Dead is that large. And honestly, I didn't think Vigilance could -get- any lower. Then again, if it takes a nerf to Vigilance to buff Defiance, I'm all for it!
Please note the light hearted nature of this post... please...


 

Posted

I get the feeling it's only the Stalkers complaining about one-shotting being nerfed. Surprise guys, now you'll need to develop better tactics than "eat 12 reds, stab the guy, then run". Any competent Stalker will be able to squeeze in that follow-up attack, but it should help insulate people from the bottom-feeders who seek out every concievable abusive tactic in lieu of actually learning how to stalk effectively.

Also, I'd suggest people just quit arguing with Hellfire. Statesman can do no right by him. He is firmly comitted to hating Statesman, the dev team in general, and every last decision they make that doesn't buff the AT that he personally plays, as do a number of others in the vocal minority. No rational argument is going to reach these people; just stop feeding the trolls.


Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball

 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.



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what's going to be really fun, and something that no one has mentioned as of yet (here anyway).....

Hero/Villain loading areas are now going to be fair game, so long as you can get past the drone before it can fire at you the second time

"If anything occurs within a fraction of a second"

includes the one shot kill from drones


 

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Ohhh, hadn't thought of that! But don't forget, the Drones have a pretty high magnatude Hold / Immoblize attached to their attackes, so you might survive one shot (though I'm not sure about this because it doesn't do damage, so much as just... kill you), but you probably won't be going far.


 

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Ohhh, hadn't thought of that! But don't forget, the Drones have a pretty high magnatude Hold / Immoblize attached to their attackes, so you might survive one shot (though I'm not sure about this because it doesn't do damage, so much as just... kill you), but you probably won't be going far.

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ah yes, but note that he does not specify a damaging attack....just says "anything that reduces a player from 100% to 0"

just pop a breakfree and charge past the drone


 

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We'll have to see how that plays out then! If nothing else, it's interesting.

I wouldn't say it makes the "Safe Zones" free game though, because with the absolute best, you have 1% hp and there are still other drones, and even players who could take you out. Now what if you pop a bunch of greens to get back to 100% hp? Now you're out a lot of inspirations too, and there are still hostiles everywhere. It may not be as good as first thought... Though I would like to be the one who watched someone do that (assuming it's even possible) so I could run around and brawl them!


 

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I've been reading the dev digest since around issue 2's release. I've never had a problem with any dev conduct that I have seen.


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So you had absolutly no problem with the fact that Statesman said 'No more major power changes'. And then they went and implimented ED. That may not be a major power change, but it is a fundemtal change to how the powers act.

So you had no problem when Statesman stated that 'We are going to be making some minor tweaks to regen' and they have been making changes in the set in almost every issue since?

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Or, I agree with the changes made?
I have personally found it to be the case that with nearly every change this game has seen, the end result has been a more fun play experience for me. Therefore, when States says they're looking into it, I trust him.


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How many of those changes have directly affected you besides ED? You have one hero listed and he is a BS/SR scrapper, how many times have you felt the sting of the nerf bat?

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They can care what we think. That means they ask for our opinions, and give us info, and then a place to respond to said info (like this thread for instance). They can even prioritize their development schedules based on what we say.

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They have not once asked for our opinion on any matter. Any time a question about some power has come up they look at the datamine, come to a decision and then look at the boards as an afterthought.

Demo of scrappers taking on hordes of critters and laying waste to them and using that as their baseline. Only after players crying foul did they take a closer look and relize 'Oh.. sorry.. that was an internal build that has a few differences from live'

Stealth Nerf. Was all set to go live when we had to raise the point of how easy it would be for someone to grief a team with an AoE stealth. The didn't impliment that change to live.

The KB Ragdoll caper. They put in ragdoll and thanks to an unintended bug KB actually has POWER now. Forum goes had been quite vocal about their pleasure with Ragdoll and I saw a few KB related posts. They then IMPLIMENT the fix ignoring the howls of anger and the complaints that KB is even worse then it was before (KBd critters standing up while IN the air). It then takes the better part of a month for a code reversion to come back to live with the 'buggy' ragdoll.

Defiance. The only compliments I've heard about it have been from low level characters. It's as if they didn't bother to test it with higher level blasters who simply can NOT take the risk of running in the yellow or red to get the boost. They even had to come back after the fact and change the point in which bonuses accrue because it wasn't being used, after we the forum community raised holy hell about it.

Please point out to me an incident where they 'Asked our opinion' about a matter.


 

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We'll have to see how that plays out then! If nothing else, it's interesting.

I wouldn't say it makes the "Safe Zones" free game though, because with the absolute best, you have 1% hp and there are still other drones, and even players who could take you out. Now what if you pop a bunch of greens to get back to 100% hp? Now you're out a lot of inspirations too, and there are still hostiles everywhere. It may not be as good as first thought... Though I would like to be the one who watched someone do that (assuming it's even possible) so I could run around and brawl them!

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But, you're thinking of one person trying to do this

how many times have you seen the hero or villain area camped by one or more groups?

okay, now with this new rule, move those groups inside the safe area.....

fun huh?


 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.

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I don't see this helping at all. 1% of Controller/Defender/MM HP is nothing. A follow up attack with brawl would practically kill them. This won't buy someone enough time to pop multiple greens or receive a healing buff. Very poorly thought out solution.

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In Siren's Call, my level 38 Controller has 693 hit points. She was one-shot last night by an energy Stalker. After this change goes in place, she would be left with 7 hp and only a second (Brawl has 1 sec. activation time) to respond with 3 Health Inspirations or 3 Defense Inspirations or a Break Free (if stunned) and then the Health/Defense inspirations. It just won't help.


 

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1. We're looking into the tweak to Endurance for mobs that's affected Endurance Drain abilities. Sorry about that!


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much appreciated.



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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.

That's all for now.

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I'd suggest something that's slightly below 100% for the threshold, maybe 95%, and maybe experiment with thresholds in the 1%-5% range.

I assume this is to allow a player to always have some chance, no matter how small, to respond to a threat. There are times where just dropping down from a certain elevation causes a few points loss, making it unlikely that SJ'ers landing in changing elevations will ever really be at full 100%.... but they'd likely be above 97%.

Then there are fast-ticking DOT's (caltrops, rain of fire/ice etc) that might still appear to cause instadeath- the person is dropped to 1%, then the DOT ticks past that almost instantly.

If this is intended to hinder the "2-shotter" (don't know if it is) of an AS+followup in rapid succession, we have some attacks with very fast activation time and some with very long activation times, but the "to hit" calculation is done at initiation (if the foe moves away, they're still hit). Is the "fraction of a second" enough to affect such 2-shotting, and if it is, are long-activation powers counted at the point of activation or the point of damage delivery?



---
Finally, for people wondering if this is PvE or PvP, in previous _castle_ posts, this was a player-only defense, but it would stop players from being 1-shotted by PvE baddies as much as 1-shotted by PvP.


 

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So you had absolutly no problem with the fact that Statesman said 'No more major power changes'. And then they went and implimented ED. That may not be a major power change, but it is a fundemtal change to how the powers act.

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I take everything the devs say at face value. So no, I wasn't upset. I can see how many would feel it was misleading, but I also remember when Statesman not only explained why he made the error, but then also apologized. Since he's just a person, I can't really expect him never to make mistakes. Beyond that, since he has clearly learned from said mistakes (hence the apology here), I hold no ill will towards him for it.

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So you had no problem when Statesman stated that 'We are going to be making some minor tweaks to regen' and they have been making changes in the set in almost every issue since?

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My regen is still my most powerful scrapper defensively (50 BS/SR, 31 BS/SR, 37 kat/reg), and is without a doubt in my mind still better off than any of my other scrappers. So since after the continued changes the set is still really powerful relative to the other sets, I can't say I have a problem with it at all.

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How many of those changes have directly affected you besides ED? You have one hero listed and he is a BS/SR scrapper, how many times have you felt the sting of the nerf bat?

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Well, my /SR used to run perma-elude.

My Ice/Mace (48 now) used to be a stellar herder. One time I herded so many of Bobcat's minions that my computer couldn't render them all.

Not to mention the issue 5 defense reductions.

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Defiance. The only compliments I've heard about it have been from low level characters. It's as if they didn't bother to test it with higher level blasters who simply can NOT take the risk of running in the yellow or red to get the boost. They even had to come back after the fact and change the point in which bonuses accrue because it wasn't being used, after we the forum community raised holy hell about it.

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You mean they listened to the feedback and changed the power based on said feedback? Jerks!

My blaster (at level 42) uses defiance very effectively roughly every third spawn when soloing. It's not my fault if the majority of the blaster community can't stop complaining long enough to try to use it strategically. Or maybe I'm just really good. But I tend to think the former is more likely.

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Please point out to me an incident where they 'Asked our opinion' about a matter.

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Just one incident? Developer Response Threads


 

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1. We're looking into the tweak to Endurance for mobs that's affected Endurance Drain abilities. Sorry about that!

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Thank you for looking into this! It's kinda hard not to take issue with this one, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was disingenuous to have labelled this change as a "tweak" in the first place, as it was a huge increase to the MOBs' endurance. Secondly, the fact that this change would significantly impact endurance drain powers is very obvious, which causes folks to wonder how that could have been overlooked.

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.

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1-shotting isn't the problem. The problem is being defeated so quickly there is no chance to react. With that in mind, a huge alpha strike followed by a queued attack that defeats the target is little different in practice than a 1-shot alpha strike.


 

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Let's not forget that it was on test for like, 6 minutes before it was jammed through to live.


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I know being an irrational ranter is your schtick, but the patch that included the changes to endurance for bosses and LTs was on test for over a week, actually longer than most patches have been on test that have included far more than that patch did.

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And for the duration of that week, it was thoroughly documented how it gutted endurance drain strategies unnecessarily, several alternatives were offered -- all within the span of the first 36 hours, I might add -- and yet nothing could be done about it before it went live. You can leave buggy or over-nerfing code on test for a month or a minute, if it goes live in the same state, it's still buggy/over-nerfing and wasn't on test long enough to get it fixed/adjusted to a level that's worth pushing live.

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There is a profound disconnect between testers in the Training Room and this development team. As we learned from the HO nerf, & ED, offering suggestions nicely or through flames had the same effect on the devs - they mostly ignored them. The Training Room is supposed to be used to identify problems with code before it goes live. To this team, the only problems worth adjusting before taking the client live is if you can't log in or you can't stay connected - and that's pretty much been the rule ... not the exception.

Tweaks MIGHT happen later after the update goes live - if they conform to the Vision(tm) and time is available before the next marketing meeting in Austin.


 

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What kind of bizarro world do you live in? Did you read my post? Your own even intimates that you yourself are under the impression that he was aware that it was the wrong move and pushed it through anyway.


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No, it was a move that had to be made for other reasons that unfortunately affected endurance draining heroes and villains.

But, carry on. How would you like Statesman to rectify this situation? What would be better for you than a verbal apologize? 40 lashes?

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He can save his apologies. I reserve judgement until a fix is instituted. IF a fix is instituted. If one is I'll gladly clean and press Jack's cape.

After all he said he'd LOOK into the issue. He may very well say "working as inteded yadda yadda and get on with his life."

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Yup ... as he's already done with Flight and Hover speed issues post ED.


 

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I take everything the devs say at face value. So no, I wasn't upset. I can see how many would feel it was misleading, but I also remember when Statesman not only explained why he made the error, but then also apologized. Since he's just a person, I can't really expect him never to make mistakes. Beyond that, since he has clearly learned from said mistakes (hence the apology here), I hold no ill will towards him for it.


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Aye, no one is perfect and even the great Statesman makes mistakes. I can live with that. However some of their mistakes were on test, we pointed it out to them and they did not allow it to go live.

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My regen is still my most powerful scrapper defensively (50 BS/SR, 31 BS/SR, 37 kat/reg), and is without a doubt in my mind still better off than any of my other scrappers. So since after the continued changes the set is still really powerful relative to the other sets, I can't say I have a problem with it at all.


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I find it hard to believe your level 37 regen scrapper who doesn't have access to his level 38 Moment of Glory is better off defense wise then your level 50 Super Reflexs Scrapper with access to Elude. If that is the case then perhaps their Regen tweaks are not complete yet?

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You mean they listened to the feedback and changed the power based on said feedback? Jerks!


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Feedback is not an asked for opinion, feedback is asked for player made data.. or facts.

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My blaster (at level 42) uses defiance very effectively roughly every third spawn when soloing. It's not my fault if the majority of the blaster community can't stop complaining long enough to try to use it strategically. Or maybe I'm just really good. But I tend to think the former is more likely.


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Soloing 3 (lets say your good enough to run on invincible) red con minions is vastly different then trying to handle the aggro from 5.. 6.. maybe even more yellow+ con critters in a mid to large team spawn. Every defender except a Force Field and Trick Arrow has some kind of heal other power. Short of being suicidal and doing what Statesman said ('Want to build up defiance? Maybe run in and get some aggro before the tank does. Or perhaps tell the defenders NOT to heal you.') Every one of those defenders is going to do their damdest to keep you out of the yellow or red.

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Just one incident? Developer Response Threads

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I quote Cuppa,
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Good, constructive feedback from testing the changes. Including any testing data you have gathered. Do not respond to other posters - let your post stand on its own.


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No where in there is it asking for an opinion. In fact they don't want it hence the request to not respond to another poster, our post has to have the strength to stand on its own. They are asking the million other monkeys to write Hamlet because they only have 25 chimpanzees who are making the quills. They are asking us to find the problems and point them out. They will then make their own fixes.


 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.


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Isn't this going to have an adverse effect of hamidon raids? I.E. No one dies during the mito phase.

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This wouldn't necessarily be true ... but let's argue that it is. So what?

Answer is to buff Hami & his Mitos after all the song and dance with the HO nerf, I5, and ED? Are you on crack?


 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.

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Statesman:

If this is the extent of the one-shot solution, it won't do much to make the PVP zones more palatable for those who like PVP but aren't enjoying the gankfest those zones can be today.

<ul type="square">[*]Under this plan, the tiniest amount of damage will be an invitation to gankdom. People will be afraid to jump off roofs in those zones for fear that the 2 HP loss will turn off the one-shot protection.[*]Under this plan, people will likely not have time to react to the incoming damage before the second blow falls. That first tic of DoT or an unslotted, level 1 attack (with its teeny, tiny animaiton time) will defeat the person before they are likely to be able to even click a respite, let alone actually engage their foe.[*]Under this plan hit-and-run tactics (that don't really allow the attacked a chance to participate in combat) remain the highest-gain, lowest-risk method of PVPing. I acknowledge that the most eggregious of these (AS &amp; run) will be stopped, but things like TP foe into tripmines, AS+Followup &amp; run, and other "frontloaded damage on an unsuspecting foe" techniques will remain the absolute best way to PVP. Unless there sufficient danger of retribution, hit and run will remain the primary style of PVP.[/list]
I would recommend the following changes:
<ul type="square">[*]Chance 100% and 1% to 95% and 5%. "If anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 95% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 5% Hit Points". This will decrease the fear of minor damage and increase the probability of being able to react.[*]Open an option where people can set their inspiration tray to automatically consume a respite (if one is available) when their HP fall below a certain level. This will also increase the probability of being able to react.[*]If one awekens or is rezzed post a PVP kill, instead of x seconds of debt immunity, they get the same number of seconds of PVP immunity. This will allow people to follow the hit and runner and seek retribution, making hit and run much less safe as a technique.[/list]


 

Posted

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I find it hard to believe your level 37 regen scrapper who doesn't have access to his level 38 Moment of Glory is better off defense wise then your level 50 Super Reflexs Scrapper with access to Elude. If that is the case then perhaps their Regen tweaks are not complete yet?

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Maybe not. I dunno.

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Feedback is not an asked for opinion, feedback is asked for player made data.. or facts.

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Feedback is anything you decide to tell them.

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Soloing 3 (lets say your good enough to run on invincible) red con minions is vastly different then trying to handle the aggro from 5.. 6.. maybe even more yellow+ con critters in a mid to large team spawn. Every defender except a Force Field and Trick Arrow has some kind of heal other power. Short of being suicidal and doing what Statesman said ('Want to build up defiance? Maybe run in and get some aggro before the tank does. Or perhaps tell the defenders NOT to heal you.') Every one of those defenders is going to do their damdest to keep you out of the yellow or red.

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I tend to run unyielding actually, so groups of 5 yellow/orange. And sonics don't have heals either. But that's not the point. If the defender wants to keep me out of the red, that's their perogative. The point is that the inherent ability can be used strategically, and very effectively.

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I quote Cuppa,
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Good, constructive feedback from testing the changes. Including any testing data you have gathered. Do not respond to other posters - let your post stand on its own.


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No where in there is it asking for an opinion. In fact they don't want it hence the request to not respond to another poster, our post has to have the strength to stand on its own. They are asking the million other monkeys to write Hamlet because they only have 25 chimpanzees who are making the quills. They are asking us to find the problems and point them out. They will then make their own fixes.

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So they're asking you to test the changes, and tell them what you think. Feedback can be data, it can also be an opinion. However, opinions that are based on data (as opposed to anecdotal experiences) have more weight when the data is shared. The reason they want your opinion to stand on its own, and not just respond to other posters is because they were trying to limit the number of responses per poster, and prevent arguments. They had other threads for discussion purposes, which is where inter-poster discussions were supposed to stay.

So it didn't work out as well as hoped. But the point is they went through the effort to organize a place where everyone could leave feedback for them. If you really think that asking for feedback is completely different from asking for an opinion, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.


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I'm more interested in a fix like this for NPCs. This also doesn't say anything about a player that's been hit with a -res debuff.

My "Two things..."

1. This doesn't really change a thing.
2. The whiners will want more.


Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.

Truedusk - Human Rogue

 

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I tend to run unyielding actually, so groups of 5 yellow/orange. And sonics don't have heals either. But that's not the point. If the defender wants to keep me out of the red, that's their perogative. The point is that the inherent ability can be used strategically, and very effectively.


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So when your running the razors edge and in the red, how do you handle the critters when you pull the aggro (and you will sooner or later) of a boss or LT (or minions if you drop a big AoE on them)off the tank or scrapper? By the time you see them turn and pull out their gun its already too late, their attack is qued and resolved your just waiting for the animation to finish.
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So it didn't work out as well as hoped. But the point is they went through the effort to organize a place where everyone could leave feedback for them. If you really think that asking for feedback is completely different from asking for an opinion, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

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Dev: Miri, whats your opinion on Defiance?
Me: It sucks, dump it.

Dev: Miri, can we get some feedback on Defiance please?
Me: It sucks, heres why. Blah blah blah. Perhaps change it to do bleh bleh bleh.

Opinion doesn't have supporting data, and anything you try to prove without data backing it up as fact I will take as 'your opinion' Hence why I included Statesmans quotes about the various changes.


 

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.


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I'm more interested in a fix like this for NPCs. This also doesn't say anything about a player that's been hit with a -res debuff.

My "Two things..."

1. This doesn't really change a thing.
2. The whiners will want more.

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Wow that is just brilliant, you say it doesn't change a thing and that whiners will want more. Why is that because it doesn't change a thing?


 

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Either say it or don't say it or just have the balls to tell us "Hey, this is our game, we're gonna do what we want with it. Period". If they said that I'd shut up.

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I'm giving 10 to 1 odds that you wouldn't. Any takers?

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Give me 10,000 to 1 and I'd think about throwing a buck your way and splitting the cash with him on the condition that he close his account and start a new identity on the boards.

But 10 to 1? Forget it!


 

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I really don’t get some of these viewpoints.

People are complaining because DoT elements are going to take that little 1% away. Or, more commonly, people are complaining that all it will take is for someone to Brawl them after that initial shot. What on earth do people want? A little bubble where nothing can hurt you in any way, shape or form, and you roll over your enemies like a trapped hamster of death?

I also see some concern over Fire Dominators and Corrupters laying out one-shots. What? You must be joking. I’ve had my Fire Corrupter Fulcrum Shifted twice over and ~still~ couldn’t one-shot. The DoT on their attacks should hardly lead to a panic-induced riot. I suppose Fire Blasters might be able to do it, but I don’t have much experience with them.

The one-shotting issue is something most squishies have had to deal with for a long time. As an avid squishie-player, it’s infuriating, but I can understand the concept behind it. It can be difficult to challenge the more robust AT’s without it. In all honesty, I haven’t dealt with all that many one-shots. I’ve dealt with two or three-shots that happen so quickly you couldn’t possibly click on a Respite in time. I rather doubt that’s ever going to cease being a hazard in the future, regardless of what caps they put on damage percentage.

~Khenti, Pinnacle
Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Crey Cryostorm – Lvl 40 Ice/Storm Controller
Hound of Belial – Lvl 36 Fire/Kinetic Corrupter