[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scrapper Regen = Stalker Regen (minus QR of course)
In other words... Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers have the same base values.
[/ QUOTE ]
The regen value for stalkers and scrappers is the same because regen is based off your total health. (with stalkers having less health).
Hence you can use the same regen values for both ATs and still have stalkers at 76% effectivness of scrappers.
The actual numbers for defense and resistence powers are not a function of your health, hence they need to have different base values across the ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't quite how it works. Regen scales differently than other types of mitigation, so direct comparisons are tricky, but the most congruent way to compare them is by looking at adjusted regeneration rates for regen and an alternate mitigation set, such as SR.
Looking strictly at SR's defenses, we'd compare SR to regen by looking at the defensive mitigation of SR, using that as an effective regeneration multiplier for base regeneration, and comparing that to regen's regeneration rate. Since that comparison factors out health, to a first order approximation health is not a determiner for balance.
If it was, then regeneration scrappers from level 38 to 50 would increasingly get stronger relative to defensive and resistive scrappers, just because of the increasing health levels. To a first order approximation, they don't.
What does happen at lower levels of health is that regen's margin for error gets lower: the range of damage between being virtually indestructible and quickly dead, relative to other mitigation types.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking (hoping) he looked up the Stalker numbers and the Brute modifier is actually 0.1.
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle PM'd me again:
"I looked in the Brute spreadsheet and Brutes and Stalkers have the same AT mode for Defense skills. "
"Sometimes you have to roll the Hard Six." -- Adama
Teabagging Ms. Liberty - http://kk-comics.com/allmmproject/rsf21.jpg
[ QUOTE ]
15% is nothing to sneeze at, atleast post-I5... S/L is awfully low, but nothing you can't patch up with Weave and whatever else you get.
For Stalkers and Brutes though... atleast in PvP anyway, it *feels* like SR and Nin Stalkers have more DEF to EVERYthing than */EA Brutes... infact they(SR stalkers) seem pretty similar to, fighting against SR Scrappers, atleast to me... EA stalkers... though fairly uncommon, didn't seem to have any less DEF than the EA brutes I've fought. ...But then I run builds that can see these stalkers and start attacking them before their Hide and Stealth is dropped. One of their sheilds seems to give extra DEF against my Repel as well when combined with their Hide AoE defense.
I guess what this all means to me is, EA Brutes, even after I7 changes DEF calcs, will still be behind the game. They should really get their bread and butter utility powers(Drain, CP) earlier before Stalkers and move the rinky dink Auto-Powers up the chain(and boost their Bases some).
It's also a little silly that Brutes get energy cloak and Stalkers get repulse... isn't that just being contrarian?
[/ QUOTE ]
ILR, wanna hear really contrarian? Brutes are basicly the aggro magnets of the game while stalker are supposed to be the Anti magnets.
Yet Brutes get an EC that stealths them (NP there) but then does not really drop allowing them to control their aggro while Stalkers get Hide and when it drops everyone in the room sees them and comes running. On a toon that needs aggro mitigation more than any other in the game of CoV and they give the best aggro mitigation to the one AT that needs it the least. I mean......How contrarian is that?
So does that mean the shields don't have any special AT modifiers but different values, or no AT modifiers and have the same values? 
Was Brute EA boosted before because it was the same as Stalkers or because there was an error and it was lower than Stalkers?
[ QUOTE ]
On a toon that needs aggro mitigation more than any other in the game of CoV and they give the best aggro mitigation to the one AT that needs it the least. I mean......How contrarian is that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yes, thats what I was referring to thuogh. My Kins with Repel can pull the Aggro off of Tankers somtimes ...so that's what I'm saying, Brutes should get Repulse and then can use it instead of having to always take Taunt(maybe even allow it to be slotted for Taunt duration like tanker AoEs are). ...give the Stalkers the Cloaking power with the DEF buff that doesn't suppress.
But MAINLY, give EA Brutes the Typed Defense numbers that will put them Above all Stalkers, even stalkers who take Powerpools for extra DEF. Wanting to remain "under" the radar while standing in the middle of the fight and attacking is just stupid and anti-conceptual, your Stalker's DEF should only allow him just enough time to retreat behind something and break line of sight while your teammates regain aggro control. I do it all the time. But overall, a second layer of -PER right in the secondary would still be a useful "utility power" for a stalker too, not just another DEF buff that they shouldn't need anyway if they're playing correctly and letting other folks work up aggro(instead of making a 1/2 dead boss really PO'd at them as soon as the fight starts. 
)
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only the stealth suppresses on a stalkers hide not the deffense
[/ QUOTE ]
no, the defense on hide does suppress. they specifically posted about this in beta and i've never seen a post that said it changed.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I would only want Repulse on a Brute if the knockback scaled according to your Fury level.
[ QUOTE ]
i'm just gonna test against that same even con luddite again. i'll let him get set up with the crossbow and let it record over night. that will let me figure out his acc bonus, though I have a feeling it's 15%.
[/ QUOTE ]
For mere superbeings, the Archery attack accuracy modifier is 10% (As in it has an accuracy of 1.1). I believe it was Geko that posted this.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
I would only want Repulse on a Brute if the knockback scaled according to your Fury level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would depend on my build, my DM/EA would skip repulse, it's hard enough to keep them together in a team with knockback for the high efficiency of things like SM, DC, SD, and ED
4 powers that rely on closely packed mobs for max effectiveness means no repel for me thanks. Maybe on other combos it would be a better choice though.
I haven't fiddled with my /ea stalker enough to tell - but you'll notice that none of the stalker sets have stealth aside from Hide. If /EA for stalkers had EC, it would be the de-facto set for staking Hide+EC+Stealth to avoid perception.
Conceptually, EC is a better fit for stalkers, but they get Hide as one of their signatures - replacing the stealth power made the most sense for balance.
That said, don't expect to see cloak of shadows in DA for stalkers either.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only want Repulse on a Brute if the knockback scaled according to your Fury level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would depend on my build, my DM/EA would skip repulse, it's hard enough to keep them together in a team with knockback for the high efficiency of things like SM, DC, SD, and ED
4 powers that rely on closely packed mobs for max effectiveness means no repel for me thanks. Maybe on other combos it would be a better choice though.
I haven't fiddled with my /ea stalker enough to tell - but you'll notice that none of the stalker sets have stealth aside from Hide. If /EA for stalkers had EC, it would be the de-facto set for staking Hide+EC+Stealth to avoid perception.
Conceptually, EC is a better fit for stalkers, but they get Hide as one of their signatures - replacing the stealth power made the most sense for balance.
That said, don't expect to see cloak of shadows in DA for stalkers either.
[/ QUOTE ]
EC doesn't stack with other stealth powers, so removing it from the stalker set was presumably less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely worthless power in the stalker set.
[ QUOTE ]
EC doesn't stack with other stealth powers, so removing it from the stalker set was presumably less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely worthless power in the stalker set.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think it was more of a "removing repulse from the brute set was less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely useless power in the brute set".
Stalker EA predates Brute EA. and Havind Hide and another stealth power in a stalker secondary would be absolutely huge for stalkers. no more dipping into concealment for stealth to stack for pvp. EA would be FOTM.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only want Repulse on a Brute if the knockback scaled according to your Fury level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would depend on my build, my DM/EA would skip repulse, it's hard enough to keep them together in a team with knockback for the high efficiency of things like SM, DC, SD, and ED
4 powers that rely on closely packed mobs for max effectiveness means no repel for me thanks. Maybe on other combos it would be a better choice though.
I haven't fiddled with my /ea stalker enough to tell - but you'll notice that none of the stalker sets have stealth aside from Hide. If /EA for stalkers had EC, it would be the de-facto set for staking Hide+EC+Stealth to avoid perception.
Conceptually, EC is a better fit for stalkers, but they get Hide as one of their signatures - replacing the stealth power made the most sense for balance.
That said, don't expect to see cloak of shadows in DA for stalkers either.
[/ QUOTE ]
You misinterpreted what i was saying. I never meant to convey the idea of giving Stalker EC as well. I was saying that the feature of EC being that the stealth never supressed in Def and also always mitigate aggro very effectively is what SHOULD be in Hide. A Brute really does not need this feature. A stalker NEEDS it badly for PvE. And why they gave Brute this feature in EC but not Stalkers in Hide absolutely baffles me. I mean then at least it would make up for the fact that when stalkers need to run from a battle and they slip into hide the enemy can still see and tgt you knocking you out of hide. With an EC feature built into it? This would almost be acceptable. Right now? It is not.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC doesn't stack with other stealth powers, so removing it from the stalker set was presumably less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely worthless power in the stalker set.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think it was more of a "removing repulse from the brute set was less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely useless power in the brute set".
Stalker EA predates Brute EA. and Havind Hide and another stealth power in a stalker secondary would be absolutely huge for stalkers. no more dipping into concealment for stealth to stack for pvp. EA would be FOTM.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's right, I forget stalkers got EA before brutes. I stand corrected.
Well, I ran that log file all night,
I've tested with power shield. on vs. flame.
The log file is a monster, some 650 pages, and I'll have to wait untill this evening to even try and make heads or tails of it. In the meantime, I'm testing with the shield off.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
i just ended my demo too. i started an hour or so later than last time(pvp in sirens) so it's only a 16MB file this time.
since you were doing fire attacks, i'll assume there was a dot involved with each attack? if so, when you first start, simply find where it reports the first tick of damage, ususally the largest, and use that one.
also, it should show data in 3 columns. the first is the timestamp. each number tells how many millseconds passed between the line it is on and the previous line.
the second column is a number signifying what entity performed an action or had one performed on it. your character is ususally 1.
last column with the words is the decriptions and data of the movements and animations.
so when lookin for successful attacks against you, look for floatdmg 1 xxx with the x's being the dmg.
if you have msword, you should be able to just highlight when you see it and then word count will count how many times the phrase appears.
same for the attack animation.
attacks have entries like this.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>25 15 FX OneShot 220 WEAPONFX/HANDCROSSBOWBOLT.FX 0
0 15 FXSCALE 10.000000 10
0 15 ORIGIN ENT 0 0
0 15 TARGET POS -142.347122 8.819954 -503.994690
33 15 MOV 2ND_PISTOL_SHOOT</pre><hr />
in my case, this is the crossbow attack. so for the word count, i'll highlight MOV, 2nd_pistol_shoot. count those and you have the total number of attacks. then you're set.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Great, thanks. I'll work with that. Those DOTs make the file rather large...
Just as I ran out the door this morning, I noticed the telltale red letters in my chat box that informed me of impending server maintenance, so my second test (with no shield) may be somewhat too short. If so, I'll need to re run that tonight. sigh.
Still, I'm sure I'll have plenty to do with that one file.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
damnit. i can't retrieve the stupid file from my online storage for some reason. i'll keep trying but i'll probably have to wait till tomorrow.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only want Repulse on a Brute if the knockback scaled according to your Fury level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would depend on my build, my DM/EA would skip repulse, it's hard enough to keep them together in a team with knockback for the high efficiency of things like SM, DC, SD, and ED
4 powers that rely on closely packed mobs for max effectiveness means no repel for me thanks. Maybe on other combos it would be a better choice though.
I haven't fiddled with my /ea stalker enough to tell - but you'll notice that none of the stalker sets have stealth aside from Hide. If /EA for stalkers had EC, it would be the de-facto set for staking Hide+EC+Stealth to avoid perception.
Conceptually, EC is a better fit for stalkers, but they get Hide as one of their signatures - replacing the stealth power made the most sense for balance.
That said, don't expect to see cloak of shadows in DA for stalkers either.
[/ QUOTE ]
You misinterpreted what i was saying. I never meant to convey the idea of giving Stalker EC as well. I was saying that the feature of EC being that the stealth never supressed in Def and also always mitigate aggro very effectively is what SHOULD be in Hide. A Brute really does not need this feature. A stalker NEEDS it badly for PvE. And why they gave Brute this feature in EC but not Stalkers in Hide absolutely baffles me. I mean then at least it would make up for the fact that when stalkers need to run from a battle and they slip into hide the enemy can still see and tgt you knocking you out of hide. With an EC feature built into it? This would almost be acceptable. Right now? It is not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well a Stalker's Hide power isn't Stealth class stealth power it's an Invisibility class stealth power. Very few things can see though it. IF you stack Stealth with it virutally nothing can see though it. The big reason for "everyone in the room come running" for Stalkers comes from their massive burst damage from AS and Crits. In beta this problem was much, much worse than it is now. The players discovered it, the devs finally were able to duplicate the problem and the put in a fix for it. The issue is that the massive damage acts like a huge provoke/taunt. My guess is that it affects a bigger area then the general aggo/perception range when damage is huge. I for one would love to have Stalker level damage for my /EA Brute, but then why would be need Stalkers in that case. 
It seems to me that the unsupressed Stealth (and DEF) for EC for /EA brutes is to make up for no Health boost or self-heal powers in the set. Limiting the number of mobs that aggro on a Brute is as effective as Dull Pain or self-heal. And it's limited in that doesn't work all of the time. (A wanderng mob of another spawn an aggro on you if it get's close enough).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EC doesn't stack with other stealth powers, so removing it from the stalker set was presumably less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely worthless power in the stalker set.
[/ QUOTE ]
i think it was more of a "removing repulse from the brute set was less of a balance issue and more about not wanting a completely useless power in the brute set".
Stalker EA predates Brute EA. and Havind Hide and another stealth power in a stalker secondary would be absolutely huge for stalkers. no more dipping into concealment for stealth to stack for pvp. EA would be FOTM.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally would still pick Nin for the untyped defense, heal and resistance to fear. But that's besides the point.
Didn't Castle just comfirm that stalker /DA will retain Cloak of Darkness?
[ QUOTE ]
Great, thanks. I'll work with that. Those DOTs make the file rather large...
Just as I ran out the door this morning, I noticed the telltale red letters in my chat box that informed me of impending server maintenance, so my second test (with no shield) may be somewhat too short. If so, I'll need to re run that tonight. sigh.
Still, I'm sure I'll have plenty to do with that one file.
[/ QUOTE ]
If the file is multimegabytes long, it probably isn't DoTs, its the fact that you're likely testing by using a mission, and using the first mob(s) in it. The file is big because its tracking the motions of every other mob spawned in the mission. If you don't care how big the file is, no problem. If you do care, maybe because the tools you're using to search the file don't like jumbo files, you could sweep the mission and leave just one thing behind, then test with that. The files will be a whole lot smaller. Of course you have to make sure you don't accidentally shoot the last thing.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Actually I made a point of murdering the other mobs for fear of some flakey patrol thing happening, however, I only did the one floor I was on.
That said, I don't really like these numbers. They just seem wrong, but here goes:
I searched for the text
FX OneShot 1729 WEAPONFX/GUNFIRE_FLAMETHROWER_MEDIUM.FX 0
with wildcards after OneShot, for that number, highlighted, copied, and wordcounted. I came up with 2845 shots fired.
I then looked for the dot ticks.
Each and every hit had exactly messages. No variation in the 20 random samples I checked,
These wereall inticated by:
floatdmg 1 13 ""
I counted these with wordcount and got exactly 8208 dot tics.
divide by 8 and we get exactly 1026 hits (if it hadn't divided evenly by 8, I would have been concerned).
This is with my shield on, and that shield has 2 +1 SOs and 1 even SO, that should add about 56.3% more than base according to my enhancement sheet
And with that, he's getting about 36% hits.
No wonder this feels like the squishiest brute I've ever played.
Now, all this said, I can't get a def number from this untill I've done a test with no shield, to figure out his base acc, but consider:
EA shields may be very poor
or
The numbers are not too bad, but there are so many acc bonuses in the game that the reality is far worse than those numbers suggest.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I know the Fire Breath has buffed accuracy from practical experience with my Fire Blaster (20% or so) and I think Flamethrower does too. The power description is
[ QUOTE ]
Spews forth a cone of flames setting foes on fire. Accurate and deadly at medium range.
[/ QUOTE ]
which to me indicates better than normal accuracy.
On a side note about feeling squishy: that is the inherant nature of defense builds. Resistance builds are more predicable than defense builds. So, if you repeat a given scenerio, the amount of damage taken by a defense build will vary much more than the amount of damage taken by a resistance build even if the average values are the same. What this means is that you are much more likely to be surprised by a defense build either by taking more damage than you expected or less. The net result is that they are more squishy in a practical sense because the times when you take more than you expect have dire consequences. I have a spreadsheet I developed which demonstrates this pretty clearly that I plan on posting at some point.
ok, I ran the no shield test last night.
Same council vertex cor leonis fire (well, same type of minion, something unfortunate happened to the last one)
2668 shots
1649 hits with no shield
Thats a wicked 61.8% accuracy from an even con minion, although I'm sure that with a reltively small sample (under 3000 shots) it could easily be 60% I may actually have time to figure out the probablility of that, on the weekend, but no promises. I havn't done stats in 12 years.
perhaps the apparant def of 14 that I saw in my first test is closer to 25.
Certainly the fully socketed value is much higher than the minimal value I measured last night, but does that really help?
Just about everyone has a drawn weapon, most of these have an additional accuracy bonus. A def of 30 may translate into something closer to 20-25 in a game where every mob has a 5-10% bonus.
Add this to a modification for +2s
That's some seriously soft protection.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
So when they fix the def versus higher conned mobs in I7, Def still has to worry about an abundent supply of mobs with +ACC from weapons. Does this skew the old 1 def = 2 res formula still? From what I understand that only works when most mobs have a 50% chance to hit.
With the data so far it sounds like EA has about a MAX of 25% S/L/F/C/E/NE def. with both shields. Energy should be higher because both shields provide protection, but we have no data yet. That should be about the same as 50% resistance. But versus a mob with an accuracy boost that comes out to more like a 30-40% resistance depending on the boost.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
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Castle PM'd me again:
"I looked in the Brute spreadsheet and Brutes and Stalkers have the same AT mode for Defense skills. "
"Sometimes you have to roll the Hard Six." -- Adama
Teabagging Ms. Liberty - http://kk-comics.com/allmmproject/rsf21.jpg