A Plea - COV and COH Costume Pieces
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2005-10-20 13:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Oh and before I forget..
Do the dance..
..for the No-Pants!
:
ances::
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OK - here's the most likely outcome...
If you own both games, you get all options - the new CoV sets will be accessible for your heroes.
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Heh.. glad I saved some of those free costume changes from awhile back! Whoot!
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OK - here's the most likely outcome...
If you own both games, you get all options - the new CoV sets will be accessible for your heroes.
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Heh.. glad I saved some of those free costume changes from awhile back! Whoot!
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So am I, I have at least 3 maybe more characters who will be going in for a costume redesign if this goes in. 
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Hehhe... all my characters will be getting at least one CoV piece. One will even be getting a new face from CoV.
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Hehhe... all my characters will be getting at least one CoV piece. One will even be getting a new face from CoV.
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Similar thing here...I'm planning out a hero already with sewn-shut eyes and mouth, as a part of his backstory and the origin of his powers. Kind of a warped magic Dr. Mid-Nite thing...
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Isn't there a hero called Ghost Rider with a skull head ?
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Yep, plus the Punisher and The Phantom have skulls. Liquid pointed out that they are vigilantes, but nearly all superheroes are vigilantes. Yes some do "get a pass" from the authorities, or have been officially "ok'ed" by the authorities, but a lot of them fight crime because they want to, not because somebody gave them the authority to.
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The thing about the Punisher is that he's not really what you would call a hero. Yes, a guy like Batman (Who's often referred to as a Vigilante) acts outside the law. The key difference between the two, however, is that Batman brings down villains to have them tried in a court of law. The Punisher, however, doesen't care about "Justice". He's a killer. He's Judge, jury, and Executioner all in one.
In the end, the Punisher is as close as you can get to a villain without crossing that delicate line.
...But yeah, I realize I'm kind of nitpicking with Semantics here.
It would be nice if the people objecting to costume crossover would come out and admit that they just want to tell other people how to make their character.
We're basically seeing two kinds of arguments.
1) Heroes and Villains should look different.
- Seriously, why should they?
2) I don't want to see Heroes with skulls/chains/barbedwire/horns/etc...
- Why should we have our options limited because of what YOU want?
There are all kinds of character types and names that I can't stand seeing in CoH. I'm not going to bother mentioning which ones, because it's my problem if I don't like them. It's not my place to tell other people how to design their characters and how to have fun. And it's not anyone else's place to tell me what my characters should look like.
I can understand if the art department doesn't have the time or motivation to make all the costume items I'd like to see in this game (there can never be too many options), but when the items are already made and on my system, I'll be damned if I want to be prevented from using them.
"And texting? 'How R U?' Wow! English is just getting its [censored] kicked. In two generations, that's going to be on chalkboards. And do you know what you get from that? You don't get Ernest Hemingway."
- Henry Rollins
Well, like I said before, saying heroes/villains can/cannot wear something is no different from saying Tanker class heroes can only be male and Huge body type.
I mean, after all, thats the most common expectation for a tank when you think about it.
Sounds ridiculous right? I think so too. Now tell me how thats different from giving my hero a dress code. He's not a member of Hero/Freedom Corps last I checked, he can wear what he wants.
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It would be nice if the people objecting to costume crossover would come out and admit that they just want to tell other people how to make their character.
We're basically seeing two kinds of arguments.
1) Heroes and Villains should look different.
- Seriously, why should they?
2) I don't want to see Heroes with skulls/chains/barbedwire/horns/etc...
- Why should we have our options limited because of what YOU want?
There are all kinds of character types and names that I can't stand seeing in CoH. I'm not going to bother mentioning which ones, because it's my problem if I don't like them. It's not my place to tell other people how to design their characters and how to have fun. And it's not anyone else's place to tell me what my characters should look like.
I can understand if the art department doesn't have the time or motivation to make all the costume items I'd like to see in this game (there can never be too many options), but when the items are already made and on my system, I'll be damned if I want to be prevented from using them.
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I have no idea if you are singling me out, or just everyone who suggested that perhaps heroes shouldn't get all villain options. I certainly wonder why you think it's okay to put words in my mouth though. No where did I say I wanted to "control" what other people could do or wear.
I merely stated my reasoning behind keeping some options unique to CoV and CoH to create some visual distinction between the two games' characters, especially for when we start being able to complete the crossover trial.
No where did I say heroes shouldn't wear this because it's not heroic. I merely stated that it was MY opinion that certain things should be specific to each game. I'm sorry if you automatically assume that means I'm telling you that you can't wear something. I could care less what people wear if they are given the choice. I merely weighed in with my reasoning and opinion for not allowing a full crossover of costume options.
But apparently my opinion on the matter automatically means I'm trying to repress your personal creativity.
If and when it happens as Statesman says it might, I won't be campaigning to have it changed, nor will I really care. Hell, I certainly will use some of the costume options myself.
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OK - here's the most likely outcome...
If you own both games, you get all options - the new CoV sets will be accessible for your heroes.
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I don't like it, I don't hate it but I don't like it.
I loved the fact that it was pretty easy to tell just from looks if a character was a villain or hero. Sure there are more reasons to allow this than not to but, I don't know, I just liked it the other way.
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I have no idea if you are singling me out, or just everyone who suggested that perhaps heroes shouldn't get all villain options.
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Not singling you out. It's just the nature of this board that you have to reply to someone.
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I certainly wonder why you think it's okay to put words in my mouth though. No where did I say I wanted to "control" what other people could do or wear.
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Yes you did. In fact, you say it again right here:
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I merely stated my reasoning behind keeping some options unique to CoV and CoH to create some visual distinction between the two games' characters,
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and here:
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I merely stated that it was MY opinion that certain things should be specific to each game. <snip> I merely weighed in with my reasoning and opinion for not allowing a full crossover of costume options.
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If you want to place restrictions on what costume options are available to Heroes or Villains, then you ARE trying to control what other people can do or wear. It's like saying "I don't want you to have any food, ever, but that doesn't mean I want you to starve to death".
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But apparently my opinion on the matter automatically means I'm trying to repress your personal creativity.
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Your opinion IS that my personal creativity should be repressed. X = X. There is no question of my personal interpretation in this whatsover. You want my options limited. You've said so repeatedly. I haven't put any words in your mouth. You put them there yourself.
"And texting? 'How R U?' Wow! English is just getting its [censored] kicked. In two generations, that's going to be on chalkboards. And do you know what you get from that? You don't get Ernest Hemingway."
- Henry Rollins
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I don't like it, I don't hate it but I don't like it.
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I loved the fact that it was pretty easy to tell just from looks if a character was a villain or hero. Sure there are more reasons to allow this than not to but, I don't know, I just liked it the other way.
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The only problem with your argument is that it isn't currently like that. That's just your perception.
The only reason it seems to you that it is "pretty easy to tell just from looks if a character is a villain or hero" is due to the CoV players' choices NOT because of the costume creator's restrictions. Villains look like villains to you because most of the players are choosing at present in Beta to use the new "villainous" costume options.
The fact is, basically anything you can currently create in CoH you can create in CoV. Every hero I have in CoH I can make in CoV. In fact, I played around with it and made evil versions of some of my heroes (exact duplicates but for the colors). Any CoV player who chooses can make his or her villain look like any hero currently playing on the Live servers. And, that's very "comic bookish" anyway. Frequently villains look just like heroes, and vice versa. In some specific cases their costumes are even the same. Professor Zoom (a.k.a "The Reverse Flash") has a costume like The Flash except for the colors. In the case of Superman and Bizarro, even the colors are the same. Hero and Villain costumes are all over the place in comics. Stereotypes are broken all the time.
So far I have yet to see any logical reason put forth why heroes should be forced to look different than some certain types of villains but not different than others.
I want the costume bits added to CoH as well since if the specs are correct those of us still laboring with 98 *yeah i know get a real OS* can not play CoV since its only for the higher OS specs. I would love to make a heroic *police dog* or a reptillain *swamp critter* since we see so many barbie and ken heros going around the change would be rather refreshing. That and i want a evildoer to try.. try and live down getting his can kicked by *fluffy the wonder dog*
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I will agree.
There are some costume pieces that don't make sense for heroes, like chains, skull heads, zombie skin, and the like, but there are some very nice hats, coats, patterns, and masks that would fit in with the heroes.
Plus we'd finally get the fishnet stockings that are blatantly displayed on the box cover.
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Maybe it's been said, I dont have time to read every page, but havent you ever heard of Ghost Rider or Spawn?
I say bringem all over.
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Ghost Rider, Spawn, Vengeance to name a few of the Skull and Chain heroes.
As for Monstrous heroes? Sasquatch, Venom (when he decided to be Lethal Protector), Toxin, Feral, Sabretooth (he was a 'good guy' for a while), Vengeance...
As for the zombie-skin? Spawn, Deadpool....
Remember, though a lot of those have been termed villains for some time they were or are heroes.
Why should you have to wait for the Hero-Villain crossover trial for costume options?
Hmm? Ghost Rider didn't have to start evil and redeem himself. He started off 'good'.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
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It would be nice if the people objecting to costume crossover would come out and admit that they just want to tell other people how to make their character.
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It would be nice if the people who want costume crossover would come out and admit that they just want everything from CoV in CoH and make both games as similar as possible that there's no distinction between the two and that heroes and villains are identical in every way.
I can play the broad generalization and baseless assumption game too.
(And before anyone quotes that and think I'm serious about that in regards to people in support of the crossover. I'm not.)
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I will agree.
There are some costume pieces that don't make sense for heroes, like chains, skull heads, zombie skin, and the like, but there are some very nice hats, coats, patterns, and masks that would fit in with the heroes.
Plus we'd finally get the fishnet stockings that are blatantly displayed on the box cover.
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Maybe it's been said, I dont have time to read every page, but havent you ever heard of Ghost Rider or Spawn?
I say bringem all over.
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Ghost Rider, Spawn, Vengeance to name a few of the Skull and Chain heroes.
As for Monstrous heroes? Sasquatch, Venom (when he decided to be Lethal Protector), Toxin, Feral, Sabretooth (he was a 'good guy' for a while), Vengeance...
As for the zombie-skin? Spawn, Deadpool....
Remember, though a lot of those have been termed villains for some time they were or are heroes.
Why should you have to wait for the Hero-Villain crossover trial for costume options?
Hmm? Ghost Rider didn't have to start evil and redeem himself. He started off 'good'.
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Actually most of your examples are flawed:
Spawn- Was never a hero, not even in his human life. He was a mercenary and then ended up becoming a minion of hell. He fought both Heavenly and Hellish forces and killed quite abundantly. At best you can call him an amoral anti-hero which is kind of redundant.
Ghost Rider- Possessed by a demon and punishes criminals. He too is judge,jury, executioner. Not a hero, but a supernatural vigilante at best. Other MU heroes do not consider him to be one. Vengeance falls into this category more or less as well.
Venom/Sabertooth/Feral- all bad guys who were on the side of good momentarily for the sake of sales. Can't really use them as examples in this. Feral was with heroes first before they discovered she/her sister murdered their family. This went back and forth for awhile.
Spawn/Deadpool- neither one is considered a hero. DP is a well known merc. He kills for money. That pretty much puts him into the villain category.
Out of all the examples you listed, the only one I would consider to be a hero is Sasquatch. Though Toxin is from what I've heard, I'm not reading his title. I know he is a cop or something though. Most of your skulls, leather-wearing, monster types fall into the anti-hero crowd not the hero crowd. So somewhere between CoH and CoV. But if you had to pick a side, most would be on the CoV side in most heroes eyes. You think Superman would allow Spawn to kill someone in front of him?
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It would be nice if the people who want costume crossover would come out and admit that they just want everything from CoV in CoH and make both games as similar as possible that there's no distinction between the two and that heroes and villains are identical in every way.
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No. I don't want that.
I just want some new costume options in CoH.
As far as I'm concerned, CoV could keep some of the more villainous faces and costume options (such as exposed brains and spikes), but there are quite a few new options that could be used by heroes or villains. Some of the supernatural faces, the new jackets, fishnets, the new color patterns, etc would all be perfectly fine in CoH.
I'd like to keep them seperated for the sole reason of feeling like I didn't waste my money on an upgrade that anyone could have gotten anyway by owning one or the other.
The costume options in CoV are for people who PAID for CoV.
Now, if what Statesman says about making them be available to people who own both games, that's fine with me. I just don't want people who didn't buy one or the other to be able to benefit from the one they didn't buy. I think that's fair.
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I'd like to keep them seperated for the sole reason of feeling like I didn't waste my money on an upgrade that anyone could have gotten anyway by owning one or the other.
The costume options in CoV are for people who PAID for CoV.
Now, if what Statesman says about making them be available to people who own both games, that's fine with me. I just don't want people who didn't buy one or the other to be able to benefit from the one they didn't buy. I think that's fair.
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That's what was said basically. If you have both, then eventually we may get all costume parts from both. You only get the costume options from one or the other if you only own one though.
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Now, if what Statesman says about making them be available to people who own both games, that's fine with me. I just don't want people who didn't buy one or the other to be able to benefit from the one they didn't buy. I think that's fair.
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Oh, well I'll agree with that. I'll be happy if I can get the CoV costume options in CoH only if I buy CoV.
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Most of your skulls, leather-wearing, monster types fall into the anti-hero crowd not the hero crowd. So somewhere between CoH and CoV. But if you had to pick a side, most would be on the CoV side in most heroes eyes. You think Superman would allow Spawn to kill someone in front of him?
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They would fall on the CoV side on most heroes' eyes, sure. But from the eyes of a player? Which types of missions sound more like what Ghost Rider, the Punisher, or any of the other "anti-heroes" would do:
A) Break up a gang war, save an office building from rampaging criminals, stop criminals from distributing a new drug.
or
B) Kidnap the daughter of a crime boss and turn her over to a rival crime family, rob a bank, steal a bunch of drugs and sell them for your own profit.
A is clearly the more appropriate mission set - and since that's the type of mission you get in City of Heroes, it makes a lot more sense to play characters in the mold of Ghost Rider or the Punisher on City of Heroes than it does to try to play them on City of Villains.
J
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I have no idea if you are singling me out, or just everyone who suggested that perhaps heroes shouldn't get all villain options.
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Not singling you out. It's just the nature of this board that you have to reply to someone.
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I certainly wonder why you think it's okay to put words in my mouth though. No where did I say I wanted to "control" what other people could do or wear.
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Yes you did. In fact, you say it again right here:
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I merely stated my reasoning behind keeping some options unique to CoV and CoH to create some visual distinction between the two games' characters,
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and here:
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I merely stated that it was MY opinion that certain things should be specific to each game. <snip> I merely weighed in with my reasoning and opinion for not allowing a full crossover of costume options.
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If you want to place restrictions on what costume options are available to Heroes or Villains, then you ARE trying to control what other people can do or wear. It's like saying "I don't want you to have any food, ever, but that doesn't mean I want you to starve to death".
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But apparently my opinion on the matter automatically means I'm trying to repress your personal creativity.
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Your opinion IS that my personal creativity should be repressed. X = X. There is no question of my personal interpretation in this whatsover. You want my options limited. You've said so repeatedly. I haven't put any words in your mouth. You put them there yourself.
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Look, I can't repress your personal creativity since the options don't currently exist! If they existed and I was saying, get rid of them, or you can't use these because I said so! Then I would be repressing your creativity. Saying I'm trying to control what you do in game is also ridiculous.
I'm not trying to "control" it, I already said that if the option existed, I wouldn't go about trying to get it repealed. I merely stated that I had reasons for not wanting it implemented to keep some unique visual boundary between the two games, so sue me.
Bringing food and starvation into this is ridiculous, you don't NEED costume options to play the game, especially costume options that aren't even available yet in CoH and might NOT be. If you want to bring in food, this entire thing could be summed up as such: A chef says he might cook a 10 course meal, I suggest that perhaps 8 is enough, and then I get told that I'm repressing and controlling people gastronomically...awha?
I'm suggesting that because they are seperate games, SOME visual distinction should be made between the two for the sole purpose of making the crossover trial have the ability to create unique heroes and villains in more than just AT. I think that villains and heroes who crossover should get ALL options, but heroes and villains who start on one side or the other should have SOME unique costume pieces. I already said tha most of the new stuff from CoV should be carried over, I just don't see the reason to have a hero covered in barbed wire, or a heroine who's rotting away, or some giant wolf festooned with skulls...unless they are reformed villains. Yes yes, I know, I'm sure there are tens of people who there who've been waiting for barbed wire for their heroes since they started CoH!!
Seriously, if I suggested that an in-game power should do something other than what it does, would that mean I'm also repressing you creatively and "controlling" what you did in game? Or perhaps if I suggested that an emote should do something a little different, am I also controlling what you do in game? You should check out the suggestions and ideas area, after all, there are tons of people trying to control what you do in-game over there, what with all their ideas and suggestions and such.
And let's face it, if the Dev's are trying to use the Golden Age of Comic Book Culture as some kind of archetypal basis for this game, then in most cases there most certainly were very black and white visual distinctions between villains and heroes.
I'll stand by my opinion that not all the options should be immediately available for both villains and heroes. Like I stated in my original post, I think 2/10 should be unique to CoV, 2/10 to CoH, and then 6/10 crossover. When and if it does get implemented, fine, I certainly won't whine and complain about it.
But I really don't like getting demonized and told I'm "repressing" and "controlling" for suggesting an option that doesn't even exist in game right now not be carried through fully. It's ridiculous. If States doesn't go through with this, are you going to start telling him that he's "repressing" and "controlling" you?
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Most of your skulls, leather-wearing, monster types fall into the anti-hero crowd not the hero crowd. So somewhere between CoH and CoV. But if you had to pick a side, most would be on the CoV side in most heroes eyes. You think Superman would allow Spawn to kill someone in front of him?
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They would fall on the CoV side on most heroes' eyes, sure. But from the eyes of a player? Which types of missions sound more like what Ghost Rider, the Punisher, or any of the other "anti-heroes" would do:
A) Break up a gang war, save an office building from rampaging criminals, stop criminals from distributing a new drug.
or
B) Kidnap the daughter of a crime boss and turn her over to a rival crime family, rob a bank, steal a bunch of drugs and sell them for your own profit.
A is clearly the more appropriate mission set - and since that's the type of mission you get in City of Heroes, it makes a lot more sense to play characters in the mold of Ghost Rider or the Punisher on City of Heroes than it does to try to play them on City of Villains.
J
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To be quite honest, if you were truly going for that "anti-hero" Spawn, Punisher type fellow, I doubt he/she'd be doing any of the missions, if you wanted to keep true to the character. They are street vigilantes, generally taking down thugs mugging people, or thugs who have done harm to either them or their close loved ones. Played like that, they could be played in either game, just street-hunt and aid those people who need your help in their missions.
That's disappointing.
I think villains should have some options solely for them, and the same for heroes.
If all options are available to both sides, and eventually you can swap sides so all ATs will be on both sides, what makes them different? Nothing. It'll just be one big city of...sameness.
Poop.
I am of the type that NEEDS to be flooded with SO many options that it is utterly overwhelming and seemingly impossible to decide before I can actualy make a decision I am 100% confidant in.
Bring them all!