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This makes zero sense -- why do we become resistant to damage as we get hurt? -- and I can't see the numbers possibly even beginning to make up for what we're going to lose to ED.
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Except everyone loses to ED. This isn't supposed to make up for ED, just make us competitive with other scrapper secondaries.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I don't want resistance. If I wanted resistance I would have rolled up an */Invul scrapper, or taken Tough from the power pool.
The whole point of SR is to not get hit. If your testing has finally realized that SR scrappers are underperforming, just add more defense. It's not rocket science. If you really want to use the 40% and 20% sliding scale then do it for increased defense, not resistance.
When a reflex scrapper gets hit, he should get hurt. The balancing point should be that the SR scrapper gets hit less often.
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I don't want resistance. If I wanted resistance I would have rolled up an */Invul scrapper, or taken Tough from the power pool.
The whole point of SR is to not get hit. If your testing has finally realized that SR scrappers are underperforming, just add more defense. It's not rocket science. If you really want to use the 40% and 20% sliding scale then do it for increased defense, not resistance.
When a reflex scrapper gets hit, he should get hurt. The balancing point should be that the SR scrapper gets hit less often.
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In reality, if a Super Reflexes scrapper gets hit, his +DEF should go down for a period of time because he depends on his superior reflexes. The easiest time to hit a really fast guy is right after you just slugged the hell out of him. He won't be moving so quickly for a second or two then.
So, you really wanna argue concept? Cuz if you do, he oughta have us get guarantee-stunned for about 2 seconds after every blow we take.
Let's try to be grateful for something instead of arguing semantics?
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
I honestly don't care about theme anymore. Rolling with a punch IS damage resistance. Dodging the blow completely IS defense.
The ONLY thing I truly care about is getting SR's time to die against a mob of +2s to be equal to the other secondaries when ignoring the scrapper's primary and ancillary pools.
When that happens, regardless of how it happens, I'll be ok.
Yes, that goes the same for Ice Armor.
Until there is intra AT equality, this game is broken.
Be well, people of CoH.
This isn't about gratefulness; I'll probably be able to play just fine without this sliding scale resist power thing, and after ED nerfs our defense. I just don't believe SR scrappers should be forced to have resistance; it's part of my character's theme to avoid getting hit, not to resist the damage that hits.
I've got an even simpler fix; for ED give class B enhancements the same caps as class A (70% and 100%). There, done, and we didn't have to fool around with adding resistance because the ED caps end up nerfing our defense.
If you want to add resistance to SR, then add it as a power, not laid throughout three powers that you should take to be reasonably effective.
One thing I heard mentioned numerous times is the whole "glancing blows" thing added to SR as a killer suggestion. Sometimes the scrapper evades the attack, sometimes the scrapper gets hit, but sometimes these hits are just glancing and wouldn't do much damage. I don't think having resistance scale with HP is a great way of doing this though.
It's really dangerous playing a /SR scrapper as it is. I think I may shelf my /SR character until defense is worth using again simply because of how unfun he is to play now compared to either my /invuln and /regen scrappers. I've even had groups turn down my /SR scrapper in a group because they thought he wouldn't be able to effectively deal with red caps. Lame.
Regards,
Captain Head Explody
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This isn't about gratefulness; I'll probably be able to play just fine without this sliding scale resist power thing, and after ED nerfs our defense. I just don't believe SR scrappers should be forced to have resistance; it's part of my character's theme to avoid getting hit, not to resist the damage that hits.
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Don't take your auto powers. No one forced you to take them. I don't particularly like resistance in my /SR, but I dislike having trouble surviving 3 spawns in a row even more. Please, don't take us down with your sinking ship.
Eh, I'm not here to try to convince any of ya'll of anything. I'll continue to have fun playing my /SR scrapper whether he gets buffed or not, and I get requests to get my scrapper even when I'm on alts. If ya'll don't like it, don't play it. Either way, become appreciative of SOMETHING. This whining is just making me glad that I argue against most of you /SR scrappers instead of with you.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
wow this is genius, and will solve a lot of problems with SR. Thx States!
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Don't take your auto powers. No one forced you to take them. I don't particularly like resistance in my /SR, but I dislike having trouble surviving 3 spawns in a row even more. Please, don't take us down with your sinking ship.
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You forgot to quote the part where I suggested two different fixes that don't involve changing three powers (though the 'add resistance as its own power' suggestion would probably require melee and ranged passives to join, making space for a resistance power).
I've said my piece with regards to the addition of resistance to SR and have suggested an alternative. I don't like it as it doesn't fit the SR theme as much as increased defense does.
Thank you.
I actually enjoy the concept of after we get hit hard we start taking less damage. Does it fit in with the secondary, imo, yes.
The way I plan on 'playing' with it in character is as the following. Sometimes you go into a fight, you think have your opponent sized up, and begin. A couple of seconds into his jab turns into a hook from the other hand an you go Holy Smokes. You get that adrenaline boost and focus just a tad bit more so when that same punch comes through you roll with it a bit and it does less damage. You've adapted to that first attack and can 'see' it coming the next time around. You still get hit, but not a solidly as the first time.
So I may enjoy this 'buff'... (geesh are we allowed to say that, it's been a while). though I'm still ticked off about that other thing that's happening.
Victory:
Guen W. Var - Lvl 50- Mut Scrapper Claws/SR/Body (671 hours)
Lady Sherwood - Lvl 50- Mag Defankster Emp/Rad/Dark
Lady Camelot - Lvl 20- Mag Defender Rad/Son
Proud Leader of the Monks of PalSidae
I love this idea but an even better step to bring SR inline with all the other secondaries would be a self heal. Regens and Invuls get dull pain and regens also get reconstruction, and DA gets Dark Regen i think it is. I think that this would go a long was in evening out the set...However the resists is a great idea (even if I am an all toggle build 
)
This is a good move in the right direction along with the resistable defense debuff. It is fundamental to martial artists that if you can't dodge an attack, you can still use reflexes to lessen the damage through various methods. But I feel that it wont be enough unless the damage RES is acutally quite HIGH. This still leaves the main problems that still needs to be addressed to those passive:
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Since I5, they dont really give enough of a boost because of the smaller base. And ED will make it worse even if you add RES Enhancements since its situational.
We HAVE to take them inorder to get this new buff, which leaves players with taking the whole SR secondary and the heavy slotting. This still leaves the same builds of just about every SR build. (This problem is what made elude great alternative)
If a SR gets one shotted or shotted close to death, it still means the same thing for him since the RES wont kick or not enough to withstand the next hit.
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When I think of a SR scrapper, I think of a martial artist. This is because they use reflexes to dodge attacks, lessen damage of what cant be dodged, counter attacks, and strengthen attacks through momentum while dodging. So dodging was always in the game and now we are finally getting resistance. Next I would like to see SR get a small damage increase with each dodged attack to immulate counters and/or momentum attacking.
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Hmm lets see ED lowers you by 40%++ and everyone says thanks Statesman for throw you the smallest of bones?
He is pulling stuff out of his backside now to appease people.
Look what we heard to appease us and throw us a bone:
1. SR gets a SMALL boost when nearly dead
2. Debt cap cut in half! Because you will die more.
3. End usage reduced!
And not one damn thing else.
He is distracting you with minor crap buffs and stealing more than 40% from you and you THANK HIM??????
He is the master of damage control and DO NOT let him off the hook. Make him explain how a 40% loss of powers is not a POWER NERF?
Statesman you are NOT escaping this one. This is garbage.
I will tell you whats next Suppression is dropped. Why? Because it will make you all say thanks Statesman you listened!
He has had someone scour the boards to give you CRAP to appease you. That is what this is a SNOWJOB.
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No one said SR is as powerful with ED, even with this buff. But everyone gets hit by ED. SR is still behind the curve as compared to other scrapper power sets and this still has the potential (gotta see the numbers before I decide) to even the secondaries a bit. And that's good. ED has nothing to do with it.
The End buff is an attempt to appease the ED crowd. This is not. This is a much needed scrapper secondary balance that has been needed for a long time - only the brief time of perma-Elude were SR scrappers equals to peers and even that's questionable.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I dont get it . How resisting blows is related to Super Reflexes ? While that solution could make the powerset better , i really dont see how that is making sense .
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Easy: dodge and get mostly out of the way, getting grazed by the bullet. Roll with the punches. Leap and make it most of the way out of the explosion.
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Sure, because it's much easier to get partially out of the way of a bullet, an explosion, or a punch AFTER you've already been shot, blown up, or punched a few times.
This makes sense to some degree, but again, it appears to be a band-aid used to try and staunch the bleeding from an amputation.
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It's easy to get out of the way of a bullet or explosion at any time? Look at what you are arguing. It's a superhero game. Explain it anyway you like. With no change to the special effect I can't see how taking slightly less damage will ruin your in game suspension of belief. There are a billion ways to justify taking less damage.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I just figured out the reason why SR get's this buff but not Ice Armor.
It's because of SR being one of the powersets in CoV but Ice is not.
I bet a lot of Stalkers have complained (and rightly so) that they are dying to much but since there are no Ice Armor in CoV no one can complain about that set...
I thought the devs had a better overview then this but with the recent changes it's pretty obvious they dont.
I don't think this is a very good solution, honestly. I'd rather see Dodge and Agile both get +def to AE (combined amount equallying Lucky) so SR can actually have some defense to AE before lvl 28/35. In the place of Lucky put in a passive power that gives +res to smashing/lethal/energy which would be simular to Resilience from the Regen power line.
Or just boost SR passive +def to levels that make the powers worth taking once again. As is now the majority of auto powers in teh game provide such small benifits that there isn't much of a reason to take them.
Statesman, I appreciate that you're trying. I honestly do. And on behalf of my poor /SR scrapper, thanks for giving him something to protect him when he gets hit (which is happening more and more often lately).
But just as many people (including myself) on these boards are tired of constant sweeping changes to the game, frequent respecs and trying to hit a moving target, I have to ask: why can't our powers work the same ALL THE TIME? Why do we need power-up bars, visible or invisible, for everything? Why can't our powers just WORK?
And while we're on the subject of throwing Defense-based charactes a bone, I also would like to know what you're going to do to help my main, an FF defender. She's already seen her primary powerset severely weakened by I5, and it will soon be further weakened by ED; those six Defense slots in each of my three useful bubbles will count for even less. I asked Positron how you guys want me to slot this character - I haven't heard back from him.
Finally, IMO, adding Resistance to a pure Defense-based powerset muddies things and blurs concepts and boundaries, just as forcing one of the classic Resistance-based sets (Invulnerability) to rely much more on Defense did.
Thank you for your time.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
All I got out of that was blah blah blah we're still going to kick your teeth in with the ED nerf blah blah blah blah I'm a HUGE liar blah blah blah blah pass the Cheetos blah blah blah blah
Better than nothing imo. Though they should really just up the base % for all Defense SR powers, make them actually do what they are supposed to... DODGE BLOWS!
why not give practiced brawler a dull pain effect or maybe a defense buff added to it. I always thought that a skill called practiced brawler would make someone tougher, other than just having resistance to mezzes and kinda goes with the theme =]
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I dont get it . How resisting blows is related to Super Reflexes ? While that solution could make the powerset better , i really dont see how that is making sense .
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Easy: dodge and get mostly out of the way, getting grazed by the bullet. Roll with the punches. Leap and make it most of the way out of the explosion.
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Its easy if you want it to be easy. Its not so easy if you actually think about it impartially. Take a bullet. You can *imagine* "mostly dodging" a bullet, but in actuality, given the side of a bullet, the side of the target (you), and the number of different options involved in either getting, or not getting hit, it is vastly more likely that you'll either get hit, or dodge completely.
You can imagine getting hit for less. But its hard to imagine someone *just fast enough to get hit for less* that doesn't just cause the attack to miss altogether.
Having said that, the devs are treating Def and Res as pure numbers, not as conceptual entities. Their many changes to the game - including ED - clearly demonstrate that their grasp of the fundamental differences among how the different attributes in the game interact is, if not faulty, then severely different from mine. So long as thats true, its just not worth it to advocate keeping SR conceptually pure, when the devs are unwilling to protect the concept. "Just don't slot it, or slot it but get very little benefit" does not come from the voice of someone intent on protecting SR's singular concept.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Let's play the if/then game...
IF:
Statesman said, "We've decided to increase all of SR's DEF numbers to a new amount. Toggles will be a base 100% increase to your defense and passives will be a base 50% increase to your defense,"
THEN:
The replies would be, "But that doesn't stop the chance of being one-shotted! We need some resistance in the set!"
IF:
Statesman said, "We've granted you 50% resistance to all dmg except Psi as long as you take your passives ebcause, in the theory that you have superior reflexes, you would not get smacked full-brunt with that alpha strike,"
THEN:
The replies would be, "That doesn't make any sense with the set! Increase my defense, not my resistance!"
IF:
I were Statesman, I would probably say, "You'd complain if they hung you with a new rope."
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IF:
This concept was monotonic resistance, and not defiance-like scaling resistance
THEN:
You might have a point
IF:
The devs ever considered increasing SR defenses to make them properly balanced with the other scrapper sets
THEN:
Your post wouldn't be a nonsensical strawman.
IF:
SR was actually materially balanced with the other scrapper mitigation sets
THEN:
There'd be a lot less people complaining about changes they perceive to make less sense than other alternatives
IF:
this was relevant to the discussion
THEN:
I'd be forced to craft a more detailed rebuttal.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
As I see it, super reflexes and regeneration have problems that stem from a similar source. Regeneration has too many powers that are meant to be used in special situations, and super reflexes has one. Regeneration only has two or three, arguably one or four, powers that are meant to be used in any combat situation. This means that those powers have to be very good for regeneration to be a valid set, meaning that regeneration players would be able to attain a satisfactory defence with fewer slots and powers than other players, making the set impossible to balance as the powers are simultaneously too powerful and too weak. Super reflexes, on the other hand, has elude and quickness as its only situational/nondefence powers. Players have to take many of those 7 other powers to have an effective build since the set has to be balanced with the possibility of someone taking all of the powers. This means that super reflex players have to spend more slots to achieve a defence similar to that of other players. Improving super reflex powers so that players can take less slots and be as good as other power sets would cause the players that kept those slots to be better than everyone else.
I hope somewhere in there I came close to getting my thoughts across, because there were places in there that I didn't know what I was getting at. My suggestion is to remove one or all of the passive melee/ranged/area triad powers, buffing the toggle versions of the removed passives, and replace them with maybe a utility power or two and a passive power that resists smashing/lethal damage under the rationale that you're so good at dodging that even attacks that hit you are glancing blows that do lessened damage. Since this is a passive power, the resistance wouldn't be very high, meaning that super reflexes would thematically remain a dodging set.
Well lets see.
Hmm.
I5 guts my defences.
ED slams them again.
I5+ED+=SR scrappers in a world of hurt.
Now you add in some damage resistance for when our "defence" falls down on the job and l know that is going to be very, very often.
My guess is that unlike defiance, this damage resistance is going to get a huge workout.
I seriously doubt this is enhanceable.
Normally when someone gives me something I say "Thank you" but after gutting my defence and making this game feel like its been a year long beta I will view all changes with extreme scepticism.