[ QUOTE ]
The toxic resist is in Hoarfrost and Earth's Embrace because that's where they put the toxic resistance in all the tanker sets: the HP boosting power. It seems just as wierd in Healing Flame, and Dull Pain for that matter, but for a lot of sets where would you put it?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not even true. Stone gets it in EE and in Granite. Invuln gets it in RElements and in Unyielding. And Fire gets it in Healing Flames. Only 3 of those powers ever get slotted for RES.
And I'm quite upset over this, and a few other things, and have emailed Statesman accordingly.
I do have the specifics on the Hibernate change, but they also left me with some questions on it, which are also in the email to him.
In general, I feel secure that, for the most part Ice Tankers will remain the mediocre Scrappers that they are, as I don't see real change being effected, which disappoints me.
I really think that permafrost should get some smash/lethal resists as well.
Permafrost makes the ground really hard, like stone skin 
Maybe less res than stone skin.
What's the current res to cold and fire on live and test?
While that's OK... Hibernate still isn't a great power by any stretch (now, if it dropped a big taunt when you turned it on, maybe) and Permafrost is still kinda sucky unless its a HUGE slow resist that can overcome forrests of Caltrops.
The core problem still remains: that the other sets are WAAAAAY better than Ice. Invuln and Stone and even Fire all have better defenses. The math bears out what conventional in-game wisdom states.
Statesman, why don't you do this: Make an I5 granite tanker and an ice tanker of, say, 35th level. Put them against some +1 Council spawns for, say, six people. Time how long each of them can tank before they die.
Then tell me Ice doesn't suck.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that the defense/defensive set is being tweaked for ice tankers can SR scrappers and FFers get some attention or at least some feedback on why ice tanker's defense isn't ok but their defense is?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. In many respects FF and SR still exceed Ice. Ice can achieve around 55% DEF vs S/L/E/N, but this requires 14 mobs surrounding the character to do so. FF with SOs and fully slotted can buff to around 55% DEF vs most things for all players on their team. SR can 50% of the time (with Elude slotted for Recharges) floor the accuracy of anything in game now, that incidentally makes it blow Ice away for that 50% of the time.
What about swarms??
With August slipping away fast and now even Circeus is sounding despondant even after the communication channell opened upo with Statesman, I starting to think that us VERY FEW ice/ice tanks are going to have to tough out I5 until the devs decide in I6 to finally take a proper look at the set and actually make us the Defense leaders.
It does seem that this magical 55DEF seems to be the target that they are aiming for but its logic still evades most of us and despite Statesmans increased activity in this thread and the couple of minor tweaks I really feel that it is going to be some weeks/months before the devs appreciate the actual performance of resistance and some defense against the Defensive only sets.
I can not honestly see anything happening now that will give us back some of the defense we so desparatly need and we will be rendered almost obsolete in I5 purely because apart from theme or RP reasons there really is no solid argument to play an ice/ice tanker.
I really hope that Statesman or some of the devs have/are currently testing some Ice/Ice tanks in there internal environment to test them against the other tanker sets, and I would really like them to issue a statement saying how their alternatives fair beacuse if they BELIEVE that what they are currently doing is balancing tankers then WOW I want to play the versionof COH that they are playing! because it sounds a hell of a lot different to the one we are playing.
I look forward to the continued tweaks that we will get in the run up to I5 and I suppose for those I need to be thankful but I am still disapointed that we have to keep discussing Ice/* weaknesses over and over again seeminly to no real outcome.
As a slight aside I must warn you all that my record in COH at picking the AT's that get nerfed is currently running at 100%, I even started playing the builds that aren't popular in the hope that they would eventually get a buff but thats never happened so I will need to start posting on the boards to let people know what I'm creating so you all know to avoid them!! :-P
Claws/Regen
Katana/SR
Storm/Rad
Inv/SS
Ice/FF
Ice/Ice (tanker)
Its a sad list really :-)
[ QUOTE ]
Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
Protection against Slow is in Wet Ice and in Energy Absorption. Why a third power with the same status-effect protection? It does not make Permafrost more attractive at all 
[ QUOTE ]
Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yay. The toggle droppage seems completely random from character to character (although consistent to each character). I tried to follow this up with the new QA liaison, but I didn't hear anything back.
Glad to see it go.
Edit to add: I'd like the slow resists in EA and WI to work properly at higher levels, before adding even more.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
The toxic resist is in Hoarfrost and Earth's Embrace because that's where they put the toxic resistance in all the tanker sets: the HP boosting power. It seems just as wierd in Healing Flame, and Dull Pain for that matter, but for a lot of sets where would you put it?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd put toxic defense (which sadly doesn't exist) in Frozen Armor.
I'd put toxic resistance in Brimstone Armor, Fire Shield, and Resist Elements + Unyielding.
This isn't rocket science.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Is it safe to say that whole one reply rule and don't reply to each other's posts isn't in effect for this topic?
Just wondering before I get into it about defense...
Actually, the change to Hibernate is pretty sweet. You can send out some taunts, get some aggro, and if you take too much damage, just slip into Hibernate for a few moments to get your health back up. You can come out of it quickly to regain aggro without having to worry about your defenses being down.
That's pretty darn sweet!!!!
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
This is not a Dev Response thread. CuppaJo in fact appologized to me in PM for mistakenly removing some of my posts from this thread before she realized that it was in fact not a Dev Response thread.
What would help if they came out and said an Ice tank should be x. Then, we could all contribute with ideas getting us there. We're just kinda all over the place atm with the powers and goal of the primary. A clean hard definitive glacial definition to build our primary on would be nice. The nickel and dime, herky jerky, approach is killing me.
This is just starting to feel like the "Why Change Energy Absorption" thread to me.
Please give me water. *cough*
Here, have a stapler.
I am extremely happy to see the ice armor set looked at, but I don't see any logic to some of the changes. Yes, I am happy that various toggles aren't going to be dropped in hibernation. I don't want to be negative about good changes. I'm very happy about not getting one-shotted from AVs (if it ever makes it to the test server) I would like some information though and explain why we underperform our primary role as tanks.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Sweet! Well for starters force fielders don't get 55% defense they get around 18% max, the other bubbles only to other people. We get no sleep nor damage debuffs and the only way to really protect ourselves is to cut us off from helping our team and remove our mez resistance(think original hibernate but it's your job to keep people alive).
Anyway it's Friday and I'm going home, I'll post more later.
To be fair, lets just run down the current state of affairs (quoted from another thread I posted in):
[ QUOTE ]
Smash/Lethal: Invuln takes 18% of Ice's damage (or Invuln is 92% more effective)
Energy/Negative: Ice takes 91% of Invuln's damage (or Ice is 9% more effective)
Fire: Invuln takes 41% of Ice's damage (or Invuln is 59% more effective)
Cold: Ice tanks 44% of Invuln's damage (or Ice is 56% more effective)
Toxic: Looks dead even, but most Toxic attacks are ranged. Take Chilling Embrace out of the picture, and Invuln takes 75% of Ice's damage (or they appear to be equal, but really Invuln is 25% more effective)
Psi: Ice takes 70% of Invuln's damage, but again, like Toxic, Psi attacks are mostly ranged, meaning that its more like Ice is taking 92% of Invuln's damage (or Ice apears to be 30% more effective, but is more like 8% more effective)
And those margins are only worse compared to just Granite Armor alone. Or an Eluded SR Scrapper.
So I'd still say we're a fair margin from being balanced especially vs Smashing and Lethal damage.
We should also be stronger vs both Cold and Fire still, the extra 5% Fire RES, only half of which is enhanceable is not enough. And the RES for Toxic in Permafrost was wholly needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
As for Hibernate, I did a brain dump of the basic problems with the power, and I understand a bit of why it worked as it did, but at the same time I think Statesman realized I wasn't going to accept those reasons either, so I think in theory the Hibernate changes will be good, not great, but definitely better - but I also was asked not to comment on the complete changes either.
My general feelings (and me general concensus in talking with Statesman is that feelings are more important to him than the numbers are) resulting from the conversation with Statesman are as follows...
I've suggested a number of things and tried more than a few times to impress upon Statesman the importance for melee sets, and especially a defensively oriented AT like the Tanker, of the concept of sustained defenses. And how important they are.
Along that line, I've acutally pushed to have the DEF removed completely from EA, folded into Wet Ice and allow Wet Ice to continue to be enhanceable. This would not close the gap for Ice completely by any means, but it would help tremendously more than 15% DEF broken over 14 mobs. 15% constant DEF is much more needed.
I've also suggested alternatives where EA worked vs 3 or 5 mobs, and had the DEF folded down accordingly. I also suggested a version of EA where its End Transfer continued to work vs maybe only 10 mobs, but if even 1 mobs was hit the full DEF from EA would be provided for the duration.
My preference? Wet Ice getting the DEF from EA folded in.
I've been pushing for a good answer on the Smash/Lethal gap, in almost every email I've sent to Statesman, and still not gotten a response on this topic.
I've been pushing to have the End cost of Icicles reduced by at least half, to make it measure up better to Blazing Aura, and still not gotten a response here either. (note: my testing on the Test server demonstrates to me that the End Cost of Icicles basically prohibits active gameplay for an Ice Tanker when running all its other armors, including Tough which is a practical requirement due to the S/L gap, and even if using EA every 25-30 seconds).
Statesman is also very concerned that the spreadsheet has 29 defensive slots for Ice and 32 for Invuln. He keeps asking me to bump Energy Absorption to have 6 slots of DEF. I keep refering him back to my point about sustained defenses being of the utmost importance, especially to a DEF based melee character. And he tells me that with 45s duration on EA that we're covered as most in game battles last only 45s (this is according to him a number from datamining).
I remind him that datamining should demonstrate that in the absense of Hasten, there is not an Ice Tanker who doesn't have at least 1 Recharge in Energy Absorption. I also point out that the length of most Defender/Controller buffs runs completely contrary to the 45s mark. And that it would mean that Ice only had its best defense 75% of the time, as opposed to Invuln having it 100% of the time, which is the purpose of the 1 Recharge enhancer and only 5 DEF slots for EA on my sheet.
Then I remind him that its even less because Wet Ice will not need to be slotted live, and he says that's good because then more slots can be spent elsewhere. Like Tough which is practically required? is how I respond. I also tell him that Ice tankers would love to have more places to spend slots for Defense if he'd just be willing to provide them.
I then question why something like Granite Armor is allowed to completely defy that logic. After all for penalties that are far less steep than dying, complete immobilization/inability to act, or an End Crash, the also get back tons of slots and even powers because powers and slots are what Stone tanks drop when they respec around Granite. And that 1 power fully slotted completely eclipses Ice, and mostly eclipses Invuln.
I also question why for about 50% of the time (on average, depending on slotting) an SR Scrapper is allowed to completely overcome the defenses of an Ice Tanker.
Again these are just things I don't get, understand, or follow, and that I feel require explanation.
And generally we keep going back and forth. But for every inch less frustrated with the whole thing I become, I become 10 inches more frustrated when I don't see any real progress.
So that's where I feel things stand, and how I generally feel.
[ QUOTE ]
Sweet! Well for starters force fielders don't get 55% defense they get around 18% max, the other bubbles only to other people. We get no sleep nor damage debuffs and the only way to really protect ourselves is to cut us off from helping our team and remove our mez resistance(think original hibernate but it's your job to keep people alive).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but the point of FF is to buff other people, not yourself. The point of a tanker is, in fact, to buff themselves. I'm sorry you don't like that, but I wouldn't hold your breath on FF ever getting more than that 18% DEF for itself, said as someone who has a bubbler.
[ QUOTE ]
Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
That is great to here that you are looking into this for us, but can you also decrease the endur cost of icicles?
I posted this in the suggestions and ideas forum, where it quickly got buried in a myriad of other suggestions and ideas...go figure. In any case, on with the show:
So, the way I see it the tanker primaries are as follows: Invuln is the top dog for straight up resists (should be, was, might be?), Stone is a jack of all trades, mixing in the defense with the resistance, Fire trades in some resistance for pure offense (past tense...god knows what they're supposed to do now), and then there's the red-headed stepchild of the Tanker sets that always gets left out in the cold (couldn't resist..sorry) with straight up defense...
The way I see it, if they are going to base a set solely around defense, it needs some way of boosting said defense. We have the beginnings of that in Chilling Embrace, which in and of itself a very good power in my estimation, and conjures up what the Ice Armour set SHOULD be set around: cutting down on the incoming attacks and then having a good chance of dodging the attacks that do make it through. So, instead of offense a la Fire Tanks to supplement their shortcomings, we would get a measure of control.
This is all leading up to a very simple idea that simply requires the swapping of two powers and some number tweaking: Simply put, swap Icicles for Ice Patch. Icicles would help the Ice Melee set out with a bit of extra damage (up the damage to match the end cost) and Ice Patch would provide Ice Armour tankers with that extra pure defense they so desperately need. It wouldn't require overhauling the set, nor adding new powers, just a simple swap. Tweak both powers (end, rech, etc.) as is seen fit.
Seriously, I could tank before to a certain extent, but after I picked up Ice Patch, I actually felt like I was able to pull closer to the levels of performance I've seen other Tanker sets perform.
In summary, if you want to build a power set solely around defense, you need to supplement it with something to augment that defense. I sincerely believe that a combination of CE and Ice Patch would go a long way to making Ice Armour viable in the Tanker lineups. And it makes sense (to me), the two elementally opposed Tanker armours would be polar opposites: Fire is resistance and offense (one laid down patch, and one PBAoE) and Ice would be defense and control (one laid down patch, and one PBAoE).
Basically what I'm saying is that as a tanker, who's supposed to take alot of agro, and take a beating, pure defense without any real way to mitigate incoming attacks will ALWAYS come up short because it's a numbers game, you can tweak the numbers till the cows come home and they still won't be as reliable (or perform as well) as a resistance based tanker on a regular basis because you simply don't know what Lady Luck will hit you with, will that AV hit you twice in a row despite your defense, you simply don't know.
Ah well, 2 cents, what the hell else was I gonna spend it on?
It is great that you are looking into tweeks for us Ice Tanks
Now can you also decrease the ENDURANCE cost for ICICLES ?
[ QUOTE ]
Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I'm not sure States really understands the whole concept of static defense vs. dynamic defense. For an Ice Tanker static defense is key. EA is great and all, but it's terribly prohibitive in its use. Great, 14 mobs? So you want me to a) gather up 14 mobs in one area (which probably includes at least 1 boss and a few lts) b) get them all in a fairly tight pattern around me and THEN c) fire off EA so I can get that extra defense I need to survive against those 14 mobs? Come again?
Seriously. EA has always been a Catch-22 of sorts, and it just gets worse when it gets factored in as a necessary means of defense.
I need EA to survive in that group of bad guys!, however, I need to survive in said group of bad guys before I can get the benefits of EA! Oy.
EA should simply be another one of those controllerish powers used by an Ice Tanker to turn the tide of battle, not a lynchpin of our defensive countermeasures. It's silly. There I said it, relying on EA to balance our static defenses is just downright silly.
That's 4 cents so far today, better bust open the piggy bank.
The changes to Hibernate are nice, but permafrost is still not very attractive.
Again I must continue to push for reasons why Early level Ice tankers are left with abmisible defenses? With the removal of def to Wet Ice there is not much protecting my lvl 14 Ice Tanker. I tested today 5 minions, 1boss, +0 had me run after killing only one, while I was in the red. I tried 3 +2 minions and barley killed one before I ran because I was in the red. When I can do better with scrappers and the other Tankers. I find this makes Ice Tankers not playable at lower levels.
The - damage reduction will be nice but will only prolong the combat only maybe 5 more seconds. While any mob outside still will do full damage. This is not going to solve the issue.
The main issue not being addressed is compensating the removal of the defenses from wet ice for early Ice Tanks. I don't thin anyone will try a new Ice Tank, when every other tank and scrapper is so much better. As well as running out of endurance constantly. Early levels don't have stamina, they don't have tough, Wet Ice made it so Ice tankers could at least help a team while a low level.
My main concern is lower level Ice Tanks, which hasn't even begun to be address from what I've seen.
This is getting very fustrating, since I5 will probably be realesed soon. My Ice Tanker will go on hold I guess. Or removed, if these are all the changes that will be made.
kk, Here's another thought.
When I use 'Hoarfrost', I think of it as an Ablative Ice Armor that breaks off in chunks as it absorbs damage. When the extra hit points are gone, weather due to damage or time, the armor is all gone.
But Ice is hard. If you don't hit it just right, it doesn't crack. So what I see is missing is some extra Defence to reflect this hardness. Maybe +7.5% that lasts only as long as the 'extra hit points' do. That would give the Ice Tank a non toggle defence, albeit a low one.
Conceptually it makes sense. And even if you were to raise the end cost a bit, it would still help the Tanker Tank...
I think the main problem is we are looking at numbers of our defense shields, while the devs are looking at those and the ability to use ice patch and drain end as defenses too.
The probelm with combining ice patch and end drain into the equation is it doesn't help on range, doesn't help on flyers and definetly doesn't work on AV's and Monsters. I wish my ice tank could sap the end of an AV, then maybe I wouldn't die against them.
You have giving us good tools to fight groups of guys but you have giving other set even better tools to fight groups and AV's.
With powers like this PvP is even worse. Ice patch is useless there, EA doesn't drain enough or give enough def to matter. Sure 1 v 1 isn't balanced but teaming doesn't help unless I got an invuln taunting them off me....
Actually unyielding and unstoppable have toxic resistance.
I suspect it may have been easier to put it in the heal powers because of coding issues. It may have been extremly difficult to put it in say Brimstone armor or Permafrost because those codes are so restricted since the armors initially only resisted one or two things trying to put the toxic resistance in was problematic.
I would much rather they had waited to put in toxic dmg till they had gotten all the kinks worked out such as no inherent defense to the dmg type. Fire resist and defense was a passable substitute.