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Not only does Ice Patch offer the already mentioned benefits and doesn't need a to-hit role *cough* and can be powered out three at a time (with recharge slotts)...
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Yeah, but Fault slotted with disorient and I can leave stuff disoriented for more than a minute. And it only takes 20s to get the power back. And it can work on Bosses with a single application, which I'm pretty sure Ice Patch can't.
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Yes it does. The only mobs that a single Ice Patch can't knockback are AVs and some mobs with knockback/down/up resistance (And even the later will get knockback once in a while. Example: Wolfs). By the way, Ice Patch can even knockback must flying mobs...
Not that any of that is related to the problems Ice Armor has, after all the devs shouldn't balance a primary based on the secondary! I'm just saying.
One thing is for sure: Disoriented mobs can't atack. All Ice Patch does is reduce their atack rate (I think of Ice Patch as a PBAoE Fear w/o the accuracy debuff)
Y'know, putting in the toxic resistance might've made it worth taking....but now that that's been removed and slow resistance in its place...I don't know...still seems like an underpowered power...especially since we get slow resistance in great quantities elsewhere (such as energy absorbtion I believe unless I've completely lost my mind).
Now, if permafrost was to make your skin so cold that you became resistant to smashing/lethal (i.e. you just don't feel lit), then it'd make for an interesting decision.
I kinda like the idea of Permafrost being switched to slow, and here's why!
1) I still was never going to slot it even if it gave Toxic resist, it's just not worth the slots.
2) If this's a BIG Slow Resist boost, then Ice tanks are in the unique position of being the only ones pretty much unaffected by those POS Earth Thorns and Artemis.
I personally will take the ability to chase down and pimpslap Earth Thorns over a little Toxic resistance any day. Thorns are Ice killers, this at least lets us catch the bastards so we can hack em up with a Greater Sword.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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I kinda like the idea of Permafrost being switched to slow, and here's why!
1) I still was never going to slot it even if it gave Toxic resist, it's just not worth the slots.
2) If this's a BIG Slow Resist boost, then Ice tanks are in the unique position of being the only ones pretty much unaffected by those POS Earth Thorns and Artemis.
I personally will take the ability to chase down and pimpslap Earth Thorns over a little Toxic resistance any day. Thorns are Ice killers, this at least lets us catch the bastards so we can hack em up with a Greater Sword.
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Uh? Ice as it is right now has no problems against slows other then the ones comming from caltrops, and that is only true past level 40. Both WI and EA offer slow resistance.
The only way things are going to slow you down is if you get more then 4 applications on you (Think crey radiologist, CoT's mages, swarm, BPs).
Not saying that more slow resistance is not nice, just saying that giving permafrost slow resistance is not making that power any more desirable. Specially since we're going to be stuck fighting 1-2 groups of even level mobs at the time... Under those conditions the only slows we need to worry about is ninjas and KoA, and that is true only if they don't fix whatever is wrong with those things.
All that of course unless they are thinking about removing WI's Slow resistance. I can see the devs doing something like that, after all that has been the whole idea behind I5: "Nerf the hell out of good/cool builds/powers so the weaker/lame builds/powers look good"
My bad! I assumed Earth Thorns were still bastards, but forgot they no longer stack their Quicksand effects anymore. Hmm... Now you guys are right. Slow Resist on Permafrost IS kinda lame.
Maybe if they lowered the Resist on the other armors so you need Permafrost to cap your Cold Resist. And maybe if they added a hell of a lot more enemies that chuck out Cold damage. I mean, they've got three archetypes using Cold to steal powers from. Where the hell's all the ice enemies?
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
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Oh, goodie.. so we get no protection from toxic... still.. and protection from slow.. that we already had with Wet Ice (according to the description) and EA (according to the description) and our toggles don't drop in hybernate... that should have already been there since day one. So you gave us.. yet again.. jack squat. How stupid do you think Ice tanks are? Why do you even TRY to make it sound like you've done us a favor? Thanks for nothing. Again. 
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
I'm happy to see any anything given to Ice after the Devs Nerfin.' I'm starting to think the devs want to make all the Tanker primaries as useful as Ice, so the other sets better watch out for future nerfing.
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Robot_Lawyer,
If I5 goes live with the current changes, including the changes Statesman has offered so far, here is my planned respec.
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I notice you have Steam (Counterstrike) running...I'll see you in Dust_2 with my Deagle
Also, you need to hit the yellow "update" icon
As long as States played a Tanker and there was just CoH, there was no need for Balance. As soon as The Arena bombed and CoV neared it became a priority? A Priority to the point that they are implementing changes that people take one look at and either mutter in disguse or post negetive comments here in vain??
All the test results I have seen say that while soloing will still be possible in I5, you will be a Debt-Monger if you try to team. NO WONDER THEY HALVED THE DEBT IF YOU DO MISSIONS!!!
They also removed debt until Level 10?? Well, I sure as heck am not going to team with any idiots below level 10 who don't care if they die and take the team with them!!!
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All the test results I have seen say that while soloing will still be possible in I5, you will be a Debt-Monger if you try to team. NO WONDER THEY HALVED THE DEBT IF YOU DO MISSIONS!!!
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I have heard this a lot too. But have you actually played on test? Most people haven't. "People" are right saying that this is a massive nerf. But this game is still very playable in teams on test. Don't start falling for something because everyone is saying it. Actually go play on test. You'll notice a big difference...but you can still team and win.
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
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I'm not a fan of this particular permafrost modification, but eh... I do appreciate the extra fire resist. Regardless, since this is your Plan, I have two questions:
1) Does slow resistance also include -recharge resistance? It seems they're repeatedly demonstrated as two different properties (since you can enhance slows, but not -recharge effects), so are we also getting this - assuming we aren't already?
If not (in any of the three powers we have that will offer slow resistance), this would be a HANDY addition to improve the survivability of the ice tanker. Not immediately apparent, but from what has been said about -recharge previously... it'd be a nice, 'under the radar' boost.
2) I'm glad hibernate is being tweaked in this fashion. It also seems to activate MUCH faster on test, but that could be my imagination (i haven't measured it, just going by 'feel'). I was curious though, is there any way you can, while modifying this, adjust things so you can ALSO actviate toggles while hibnernating?
One of the chief problems I have with building a strategy around hibnernate is that if I go under with all my toggles on, I can't deactivate them to keep myself from running out of endurance (or simply winding up very low), and then turn them back on when I'm ready to emerge.
It would be nice if you could at least have the same functionality as the pool-based phase shift power while you're under. I can see several arguments against this being quite sensible (I'm not a complete meanie), I just think that would add to the versatility of the power.
As would being able to teleport like those guys in granite form... heh.
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
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Why does Ice need More Slow Protection? Sheesh might as well give it more Cold Resistance.
Tweaked Hibernate: You mean you finaly fixed a Bug?
Yay, I guess.
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I notice you have Steam (Counterstrike) running...I'll see you in Dust_2 with my Deagle Also, you need to hit the yellow "update" icon
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Already did the updates. I hate them, though. They're practically daily.
And yeah, I just picked up Half-Life 2. Lots of fun, and I really should finish it.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
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Hey gang, we've made tiny little changes that won't really help you at all! Seems like they always skirt the issue with the problems, never wanna make the changes required to fix them. I guess we should all be happy that they fixed hibernation, el yay.
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But that's no reason to talk about ice patch (or any other Ice Melee power) as if it's joined at the hip with Ice Armor.
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<sigh> Look. Ice Armour is not terribly viable when put side to side with the other Tanker sets. Yes that is part opinion and part personal experience. It just doesn't have the resources necessary to make it a reliable tanker. Tweaking defense numbers just doesn't seem to really make any of the problems go away. Perhaps the damage debuff in CE will make a difference, I personally don't know.
I also never "kept on talking like Ice Patch was attached to the hip with Ice Armour". I merely stated my opinion that I believe Ice Patch would increase an Ice Armour tanker survivability (moreso than other tankers in similar situations) and still remain consistent with the rest of the set and provide a patch for some of the gaps that a defense oriented set tends to leave wide open.
I am also speaking from my own personal experiences, which is as a, as you put it, "kneecapped" Ice/Ice Tanker. I can't dish out damage as well as Stone, or Axe, or EM, but the addition of Ice Patch sure does make a helluva difference in my teams survivability. Sure, my xp/hour sucks, but hey, that's not how I rate the effectiveness of a power.
If I had my way, Ice Armour would be a completely different frozen novelty. I seriously don't even know what I can say to the Devs that Circeus and others haven't already said. The Devs seem oblivious and it's terribly disheartening. So many good ideas presented, and so many bad ideas implemented. In any case, I shall trudge forward with both my low xp/hour Ice/Ice and because misery loves company, an Ice/Mace tanker.
If nothing else, at least I'll leave enough shaved ice in my wake to put all of Paragon City's ice cream trucks out of business. Anyone else like blue raspberry syrup on their slushies?
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All the test results I have seen say that while soloing will still be possible in I5, you will be a Debt-Monger if you try to team. NO WONDER THEY HALVED THE DEBT IF YOU DO MISSIONS!!!
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I have heard this a lot too. But have you actually played on test? Most people haven't. "People" are right saying that this is a massive nerf. But this game is still very playable in teams on test. Don't start falling for something because everyone is saying it. Actually go play on test. You'll notice a big difference...but you can still team and win.
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I have. And in my experiences, which I have quite a lot of, an Ice Tank on a large 7-8 hero team is a walking disaster waiting to happen.
It's "playable" in the sense that I'm logged on and "playing," but it's certainly not fun and it's definitely not tanking.
I can honestly say, to my dismay, that (unless he has his own full-time Defender tagging along) I would rather not have an Icey as the lead tank if I'm running large team missions.
Yes, IMO, it really is that bad.
Hey, I've got an idea I'd like you all to consider.
Disclaimer: I don't have a high level Ice tank, but I do have a high level tank, and I do frequently team with an Ice tank. Also, I haven't read every post so I don't know if this idea has already been discussed.
So after reading many posts, looking at the numbers, and watching a 35+ Ice tank on test, I think I have an idea. Energy absorption has been a hot topic of discussion, and it's no wonder. In the best case scenario, with the maximum number of targets and 6 slotted for only defense its still less then a small inspiration. This is unacceptable for a tank. So if the developers intend to keep the numbers as is, then I would propose this change:
Increase the duration of EA effect for another 30 or so seconds and reduce its recharge enough for it to be stackable. This would increase a tanks survivability without requiring it to constantly be surrounded by enemies, and allow a nice bonus to the tank who is actively... errr ...tanking. I would think that this would be ideal for the team where the team makeup is devoid of 'buffs.' Should the team be heavy in damage and not in defense, it would be all the more important for the tank to get 'aggro' first before the team went in. Without outside buffs, this situation on test can very easily result in an Ice tanks death. This suggestion would allow for a bonus to defense in heavy damage team makeups since the first EA would not have worn off by the time the mob was dead, and the Ice tank could then run to the next mob and hit the max # of targets to get an even bigger buff.
I say this because of this: My friends and I play in a lightly themed group. Our composition is such:
Ice/Nrg Tank
Ice/Nrg Blaster
Storm/Elec Defender
Ice/Rad Controller (me)
As you can see, we have no way to buff our tank before he goes in to take the alpha strike. Our time spent together on test was...less then successful. One notable mob was made up of 4 +4 creys. One Power tank boss, one Vigilante LT, and two minions. Our tank would taunt, run a mere 15' to a (lab-map) doorway, and be killed as the boss rounded the corner. This happened Twice. He stubbornly tried a 3rd time to get aggro and was only saved by our defender running in with O2 boost, and myself laying down an ice patch before the bad guys hit the doorway.
Energy absorption needs a buff, since there won't always be an additional 'buffer' or 'healer' on the team to help the tank out. An easily overlapping EA would add a great deal to the survivability of an Ice tank in a team with high damage and low buffing, while the requirement of baddies to hit with it would encourage active battle.
Anyway, thought I would share this idea. Please please post/PM with feedback.
Energy Absorption appears very problematic to me. It does 4 things: +END, +DEF, Res(Slow), Foe -END. But it can only be used to do one of them effectively.
Res(Slow) is marginal because it's already done by Wet Ice and now Permafrost.
The +DEF is situational, and requires many defence buff enhancements to be effective. It requires that EA be activated at the beginning of a fight when there are many close mobs.
The +End is also situational, and requires foes nearby, which means activiting EA midway through or near the end of a fight. This means that it doesn't work well with the +DEF bonus. Furthermore, to be really effective the endurance gain needs some enhancements, reduce endurance cost, since enhance endurance recovery are not equippable.
Foe -END needs activation at the beginning of a fight, like +DEF. Without endurance drain enhancements its effect is not significant, it doesn't prevent the alpha strike, and foes suffering from the -Recharge of Chilling Embrace won't miss a small endurance loss. Enhancing for endurance drain is effective, but at the cost of making +DEF ineffective, and making the -Recharge effects of CE irrelevant.
This shows that it is not possible to effectively use Energy Absorption for more than one of its primary effects. One conclusion is that EA is a weak and difficult to use power. But I'll work with the alternative, and more interesting, conclusion that it is a versatile power, which can be used in different ways by different heroes, and which achieves the goal of having several different and viable slottings.
Since only one of the effects EA can only be effectively used, calculations for balancing the Ice Armour set cannot assume that all of the effects are being used.
Additionally, some problems with EA remain:
<ul type="square">[*]The Foe -End and Chilling Embrace's Foe -Recharge are redundant.[*]The +DEF choice supports the primary focus of the set, defence, which means that the other choices are probably suboptimal.[*]The +DEF is very difficult to use and often will be low. Tough and Weave provide a more dependable defence.[/list]I conclude that EA needs some serious changes. Some ideas follow.
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Circeus:
My preference? Wet Ice getting the DEF from EA folded in.
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I think this is an excellent idea, it solves the second and third points above. But it does reduce EA to an endurance transfer power which makes it even more marginal.
Foe -Recharge and Slow could be added, or used to replace the Foe -End, addressing my first point. Since Foe -Recharge is unenhanceable, I would welcome the ability to stack it with CE.
The +DEF could be increased in recognition that if it's being used for defence, then the Endurance transfer is no benefit.
It could be made a toggle power. This would be useful with +DEF and with Foe -Recharge and slow. Making it work with Foe -END, and +END would be tricky, but interesting. A toggle power that recovers endurance for foes in range is an interesting idea.
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<sigh> Look. Ice Armour is not terribly viable when put side to side with the other Tanker sets. Yes that is part opinion and part personal experience. It just doesn't have the resources necessary to make it a reliable tanker.
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Heh. Well, as someone who's played Ice/Stone, Ice/Mace, Ice/Energy, and Ice/Ice, I'd say you really need to try out some other combos. I never particularly felt that any one was more viable than the other (I didn't care for Mace, but not because it wasn't viable). Remember that "clever" is all in how you use the tools.
And this thread is *specifically* about the Ice Armor powerset.
For future reference, an "Ice Tanker" is one who has Ice Armor primary. Just like a "Stone Tanker" is one with Stone Armor primary, "Invuln Tanker" has Invulnerability primary, and a "Fire Tanker" has Fiery Aura primary.
So keep the secondaries out of it.
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Most people who play Ice/ or /Ice tankers seem to reroll them after they get the idea that the primary or secondary is subpar. Taking both is like kneecapping yourself.
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(looks down at knees) 
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
I can always count on Statesman to find an excuse for me not to take a power. I was worried that I may have to fit Permfrost into my build, well not anymore. Thanks Statesman.
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
I can always count on Statesman to find an excuse for me not to take a power. I was worried that I may have to fit Permfrost into my build, well not anymore. Thanks Statesman.
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What?? You are speaking as if no one takes Permafrost or Temp Protection for that matter because they are useless. Say it ain't so please! Anything but that.
States,
It is a good thing that you've slightly increased the amount of resistence to fire damage in Permafrost and while others bring up good points (points that I mostly agree with) about the need for at least some static defense (in addition to resistence) to fire, I think a great deal of the issue would not be so sensitive to us if the amount of Cold and fire damage were closer to being balanced in the game.
Villian groups that use fire: Hellions, Council, Outcasts, CoT's, Nemesis, Vahzilok (I believe their toxic spit is actually registered as a fire attack with toxic damage)...am I forgetting any?
Villian groups that use cold attacks: Outcasts, Crey...am I forgetting any?
AND, let's not forget that there is an entire end-game AV, Infernal, who uses fire along with his minions. Add to that a new fire-themed event in Steel Canyon which has the Hellions burning down buildings.
I think that part of the gripe that the Ice Tanker community has is that there just isn't balance in the game and part of it is not in the powersets, but in the villians. Yes, we have by far the highest resistence to cold damage... but so what...there is hardly any cold damage to contend with anyway. It would be easy to swallow our low ability to survive fire if our high ability to survive cold meant something.
Because of this, I would really like to see a dramtatic increase in the amount of cold-based attacks in the game, perhaps even a villian group who uses almost exclusively cold attacks...and it would be really nice to have an end-game AV whose entire theme was bent around ice as well.
Every powerset has something that they can have as their claim-to-fame. In used to be that Ice was the defense set. But now with the lowering of our defense and the reality of purple inspirations, the only thing that Ice has a total advantage over other tanks is in cold resistence and its secondary effect slow resistence (although a stone tank with granite is a defacto equal to ice in cold resistence with Granite)...so really the only thing that ice is superior in is resistence to slow.... We don't even own cold damage resistence.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I hope so. Dramatically increase the presence of cold damage in the game... make it meaningful... and I think some of the "problem" with Ice tanks would be solved without having to change the set.
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Most people who play Ice/ or /Ice tankers seem to reroll them after they get the idea that the primary or secondary is subpar. Taking both is like kneecapping yourself.
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(looks down at knees)
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I have one. I like the concept and the look, but she has problems.
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Whats EA with full slotted End Drain like?
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On Test? Same as it is on live.