[ QUOTE ]
7.5% base DEF on Wet Ice vs S/L/E/N/F/C, leave it enhanceable for DEF.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I wanted to add that this generally indicates that Ice would have been fine, and at roughly the same balance point that I presented above had they just left the defenses on Frozen Armor, Glacial Armor, and Wet Ice alone and removed DEF from Energy Absorption completely. Which is something I think I posted before, and I know I've mentioned to Fuzun.
It basically comes down to the 6 Ps: Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an Ice Tanker, but I'm following this because I'd like to see all the sets be equally viable. I feel the need to post, however, after seeing this:
[ QUOTE ]
So: Any clue how y'all can set it up so that you can absorb Alphas and still be at risk from the rest of the spawn?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to say that I am disappointed at the goal of being at risk every single spawn. I really like variety of difficulty in games, and I'd rather not be challenged 100% of the time. I would, however, like to be challenged every session, at varying levels, as well as having some reinforcement that I am a superhero on the level of Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Storm, Jean Grey, or Colossus, every session.
I think it is reasonable to assume that a single mission might be the reasonable minimum for a single play session-- the kind of thing that a working parent might have time for once a night. So, I'd rather they focused on trying to make 1-2 encounters a mission put you at serious risk, and 2-4 encounters putting you at moderate risk, with the rest putting you at minor to no risk.
Serious risk might feel like the live equivalent of a level 10 Regen Scrapper fighting a Lost Aberrant Boss and a minion, or a full 40+ team facing a room with 2 groups of +3 Carnies that include 2 Dark Ring Mistresses and 2 Master Illusionists. I'm not saying this is what they should provide, but the feel should be that way-- serious risk means there very well could be a team wipe if everyone isn't really on the ball.
Moderate might be that same level 10 Scrapper facing a Tesla Knight and two sprockets, or a full team facing one of those (+2 or +3) 5-LT Nemesis spawns within eyeshot of a couple Snipers with more LTs in their group, and with a Fire Tanker without Tough as the tank. I've been in the latter situation, and while I hate the crazy stacking Venegance that cuts through +Def like mad, and causes tons of accuracy issues, the situation could definately be described as a moderate challenge. I've had team wipes from it, but they could have been avoided if people were careful about when and how they killed the LTs.
Minor-no risk would be a live group facing the average +2 Malta Spawn with a Sapper in it, or the level 10 Scrapper facing the typical 3-minion Clockwork spawn.
Anyway, I PMed Statesman twice about variety in difficulty within a single mission, and both times he misunderstood me. First he seems to have thought I meant variety in aesthetics, citing new group types being added in I5. Then he thought I meant variety in difficulty among groups (like, Vahzilok being harder than Skulls), citing Sappers being added in Issue 1. I tried to clarify in a third PM, but he didn't write back, meaning he either was too busy to respond to me a third time (understandable), or he just thought I wasn't listening to him. Maybe he will read this thread, and maybe this post might make more sense than the PMs I sent him.
Regardless, I suppose I should give up on that, as I think he disagrees, and thinks every single spawn should give a feeling of overcoming a difficult task.
As a side note, I'd like to say that Circeus is exactly the sort of poster I wish I was, but unfortunately I find my motivation just won't hold up long enough to do the kinds of things he has, as it seems fairly random as to whether the developers will come to the same conclusions or not. Good job, Circeus.
[/ QUOTE ]
I quite agree with Liquid's main point, in that risk should vary not only depending on which villain group you're facing but also within missions. I'm always one for more challenge in the game, but not all the time. Sometimes I want it to be hard and sometimes I want it to be easy, and I enjoy it when missions provide this range of experience. (Specifically missions rather than picking-and-choosing street-hunting areas, because I prefer missions over hunts.)
Seems to me that the way maps are designed now, the "crossroads" sections provide fo those hair-raising moments. If heroes are downgraded to such an extent that each spawn is a challenge for the hero group, these crossroads areas will be deadly indeed.
Tanks need to be able to handle almost the maximum impact of one of these combined spawns rather than the average spawn. That provides the ebb-and-flow from "challenge" to "cakewalk." I think the problem comes in because CoH is being balanced with CoV PvP conflicts in mind, and that's messing with our powers and abilty to deal with the game as-is. Personally, I've never even gotten an Ice Tank into the low teens because I just don't enjoy playing them. Watching my SGmates struggle with them merely reinforces that notion.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I took my ice/ice to Croatoa for the TF. The TF was pretty buggy (missing map, non intuative missions and mission briefing missing ... but thats another post).
First up my health ... despite having two empaths on the team I died, the whole team died, and that was quite a lot. I was taking a lot of hits.
Secondly, and maybe more worryingly, I found the aggro management to be much harder than normal. When the AV spawns (10 times) with a mob in the first mission I was unable to get the mob aggro before somebody died. I was taunting and running icicles (waste of end but it looks quite nice) but I was still unable to pull aggro of a team mate. With a team of 6 I found it hard to keep the larger ambush mobs on me. In fact I felt like a deadweight on the team at times.
I was exemped to 30 and didn't have chilling embrace (through respec I got this after 30) but I shouldn't have to rely on one power to make my tank work.
I agree strip the def out of EA and leave it primarily as a tool for recovering end and put more def into wet ice. Either that or if we are going to take more hits give us resistance (which goes against what the set is all about, but as a pure def set it isn't working atm).
I think the devs just hate ice tankers. Why else would they give all other tanks and some scrappers (well, the one with a tank secondary) better defense?
[ QUOTE ]
I think the devs just hate ice tankers. Why else would they give all other tanks and some scrappers (well, the one with a tank secondary) better defense?
[/ QUOTE ]
I would argue that SR and Dark Armor have clearly better defenses than Ice, and Regen isn't too badly off, either.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
I would argue that SR and Dark Armor have clearly better defenses than Ice, and Regen isn't too badly off, either.
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, with Elude, an SR Scrapper will exceed an Ice Tanker vs most mobs defensively.
Its just another thing that feels wrong.
I have a question, why did you reduce Ice tankers Defenses at all? I understand the overall defense reduction and agree with it, but you have the data that proves the Ice Tanker was the weakest Tanker, wouldnt it have made sense to leave their defenses alone and see if that brought them inline with the rest of the tankers?
By accepting what is and making the best use of every situation, life can be fulfilled without a constant demand for more.
--Wen Tzu
I figure since at this point Stateman hasn't revealed all the Hibernate changes, and he only asked me to remain quiet on the one point that he already told everyone, I figured I'd post the full details he gave me:
[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please note, that I immediately questioned him on the rate of the Recovery boost and if the Regen boost was changed at all, no response on either of those points. I also wanted to know if we could cancel the power (de-toggle) or if it was now a clicky - I didn't think that part was clear. If its still a toggle, that's cool, because it may, in fact, be the first power that is a duration limited toggle, meaning some new tech.
If not, however, it's arguably a nerf. Making it a clicky you can't come out of on will would be "teh suck," as it were. My gf uses it quite often for less than 45 seconds.
[ QUOTE ]
If not, however, it's arguably a nerf. Making it a clicky you can't come out of on will would be "teh suck," as it were. My gf uses it quite often for less than 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. That's why I had been looking for clarification. Only time I use it for longer than about 25s right now is to take a break, or when I'm logging out. So I want to be able to cut out when I'm ready, not when the game says I am.
I use hibernate for the same reason. It makes a great /afk power.
I'd still rather have it moved down a level and give us something we can use against AV's etc that allows us to be mobile. I am happy to hear the activation time will be reduced.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stranger and stranger...
Ok, so assuming "New Tech", with a limited time Toggle, and what do we gain? Another power that recovers endo. Isn't that what EA does now? Isn't that the only thing EA does now, at all well? And it STILL causes you to stop Tanking. Of course, in light of Issue 5, and the death of our defenses, I'm sure it'll be more useful since true tanking is dead. Tanks can't survive to hold aggro, so I suspect we'll see more "Lone Wolf" types. This saves our rears, tells the rest of the party to scatter or die, and we'll get some additional endo back.
* Woot *
And what if it's a click power now (which I'd bet it really is)? You must stay in, and you can't come out. How can that possibly be better then it currently is. It would become even less effective then it is now.
Circ, I seriously hope that Statesman asked you to keep quiet on other changes to Hibernate. Like the fact that it's been turned into 45 second Granite Armor for Ice Tanks. Or has an unbelievable taunt aura. Or something equally redeeming for the Ice Tanks who still play those toons.
Or shall we start playing a game where we guess how next they will hurt Ice Tanks...? 
- edited for typo -
Well this could be a nice change if it works the way I'm thinking.
{If the new changes ( unannounced) also effects the phase shift of hibernate it would be more effective as well. Meaning the new animation and ability would no longer have the phase shift effect. No that I'm editting this may be difficult to do and still be invun.} Editted change to post.
If it doesn't drop toggles, then you can have CE up and running while you click on Hibernate. This means you still have some pretty good taunting and debuff there rech, damage, and slow them. Hmm, the only draw back is that you are stuck there for 45s while you hibernate. If this worlks this way it could potentially be pretty nice. I wonder if you could TP a Hibernating Ice Tanker?
anyways this still doesn't really do much to the lower level Ice Tanks, which applies to new Ice tanks and up to about level 18 or so. The solutions so far only help out established Ice Tankers. Unless the -damage on CE is greater than normal, meaning kinetics and other -damage debuffs, which I doubt. The lower level Ice Tank in my opionion is still were a big issue is at that still looks ike it's not going to be resolved.
[ QUOTE ]
Circ, I serious hope that Statesman asked you to keep quiet on other changes to Hibernate.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing he had actually said not to mention was it not dropping toggles. The thing I quoted was from a different mesage entirely, and his exact text.
He also didn't answer if we could turn powers back on while Hibernated which was in the list of questions I had sent him as soon as I saw the changes.
I've not gotten an email from him in close to a week now.
[ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't drop toggles, then you can have CE up and running while you click on Hibernate. This means you still have some pretty good taunting and debuff there rech, damage, and slow them.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not quite right... Hibernate is a Intangibility power (like Phase Shift), which means nothing you have running can affect Mobs, while it's active. That means 45 seconds where your toggles are running, but not helping the team.
If they did, Hibernate could be useful, but I'd say they will not change the way Phase Shift powers work. Thus, the power will be an uncontrollable Phase Shift, that lasts 45 seconds.
Sorry JJ_Jason i didn't make myself very clear. I was hoping that the unannounced change to Hibernate would make it different than the current phase shift, which would make it more useful. I'll edit my post so it makes morew sense.
[ QUOTE ]
{If the new changes ( unannounced) also effects the phase shift of hibernate it would be more effective as well. Meaning the new animation and ability would no longer have the phase shift effect. No that I'm editting this may be difficult to do and still be invun.} Editted change to post.
[/ QUOTE ]
While, as was said, Hibernate is a Phase Shift so powers don't interact while in Hibernate, I will note that I specifically asked that Chilling Embrace and Icicles be allowed to work during Hibernate, to make it an Active power.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry JJ_Jason i didn't make myself very clear. I was hoping that the unannounced change to Hibernate would make it different than the current phase shift, which would make it more useful. I'll edit my post so it makes morew sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they made Hibernate an exception to the phase shift rules... I could accept it as a top-tier power. If they changed it from phase shift, kept it a self-hold power, and gave us max defense/resistance (but our auras still work), I'd say it's 10 times more useful then current build.
But from what Circ says (from Statesman himself) the power changes are for Hibernate, that's not their idea. They think Ice Tanks need more Endo Recovery powers, because our toggles are so god-awful expensive... like Icicles.
So instead of fixing our endo costs, they make Ice Tanks the "Endurance Recovery" Kings! Wow... that's just what I need now that I'll be running FA, WI, GA, Tough, Weave and CE. Six toggles, and we'll still be the weakest Tanks of all.
- JJ Jason
does hibernate cancel taunt effects?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
While, as was said, Hibernate is a Phase Shift so powers don't interact while in Hibernate, I will note that I specifically asked that Chilling Embrace and Icicles be allowed to work during Hibernate, to make it an Active power.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it's now going to be a click power, I wonder if that's what they're aiming for? Since it can't be left on forever, we can't just sit in a huge pile of mobs, using Icicles to safely kill all mobs in range. Now the risk would be that at the end of the 45 seconds, things can kick our rears again.
An interesting idea. I might take Hibernate if it works something like that... It would at last allow us to maintain aggro while recovering ourselves.
- Jason
Wow, it just goes from bad to worse. I will reiterate many concerns that I have that others have already posted but must be addressed.
On Sunday I spent an hour or so testing the new changes with my level 40 Ice/Ice tanker on Test.
Hibernate
1. for a level 32 power there isn't a worse Tanker power, some would say that Rise of the Phoenix is worse, but one very important thing to consider is that RoP actually gets you back into the fight (tanking), it does not take you out of the fight.
2. So now its not going to drop all of our toggles, or some of them, but how about allowing us to turn toggles back on or changing them, I sometimes turn off Ice Armour by mistake when trying to conserve end while in Hibernate mode, try coming out of it without IA on, your dead.
3. Ice Tankers are much like blasters full health to zero in zero seconds, making this power situational at best. As an aside, I have gone down many times (live) trying to tank in hot water to save my team mates and this power is never an option, we are suppose to shield our team mates and this power shields me and no one else, I would rather die than use it to save myself at the expense of a team-mate.
Energy Absorption - I don't get this change at all.
1. So many have said it, your encouraging herding with this power to max its defence, which is why your changing the defences in the game
ahhhh
what am I missing here?
2. Your assumption is that everyone uses it at all times and that our defence numbers are based on it going off at max defence (6 slots) and as often as possible ( I don't have hasten and Im damn proud of it, nor do I have it 6 slotted with defence buffs), this power should not be a staple for everyone or what your basing our set on, it should be situational and be an option. It should be there for when you need it, your surrounded by 10 bad guys and you let it off for that extra amount of defence that will get you and your team mates through the fight. The problem with that is, our other armours now do not offer enough of a base for the crappy def buff that EA offers now to make any difference.
3. The Ice set should not be dependent upon one power. Thats what your making here. Make the changes to it, make it only suck end, but make up for the defence somewhere else, dont take it all away, thats what we are, a set that is based on DEFENCE!!!!!!! If you take it all away, we are a set based on what???? Cold damage resistance, come on, throw us a frickin bone here.
Test numbers
I based my testing on Live vs Test, even level mobs of Nemesis on the docks in PI. I did not use Ice slick. Groups of level 40 minions, Lts and Bosses. I didnt change my build, and I only used EA on Live when necessary (health started dropping at a huge rate). I used it on every mob on the test server. On live, I never died rarely dropped beneath 75% health and slowly (should have bolded that) killed all groups. On test, even minions where fine, I took hits at what felt like a normal rate, except I noticed I took a lot of damage from the exploding robots, I seemed to get hit 75% of the time when they blew up, but I still survived with about 50-75% of my health per group.
Bosses on the other hand handed my cold a$$ to me, they hit harder (269 hit points on live vs 317 on test), I am not a number cruncher, I have no idea why they hit harder. They also hit A LOT more often, on live I could eventually take them down, on Test, I always had to run, usually within the first 20-30 seconds of the fight. Yeah!!! This was fun, thank god I wasnt on a team.. oh wait.. as an ICE tanker, I MUST TEAM WITH A BUBBLER, sorry I FORGOT, stupid me. Geesh!
I could kill guys, not bosses mind you, but LTS and minions would go down, but I would not be able to tank effectively. I felt like a very very slow scrapper.
Aggro Kings
I run CE & Icicles at all times, my Icicles currently has a taunt enhancer, because I like to keep the bad guys focus on me and away from my team mates, guess whats gotta go with I5. Whenever I currently team and we take on an AV, guess who gets all the attention, even over my Invuln tank buddy who constantly throws much harder hits and spams the taunts. I always have all of the aggro of the AVs. I will never ever be able to do this with the minuscule defence offered with I5.
Lower Levels
Now that Wet Ice offers no defence bonus, what do Ice tanks do? To tell the truth, I dont care really, I wouldnt start another one for Statesmans life. It was hard enough as it was let alone with no defence other than Ice Armour, its laughable. BUT the set is not going to be gimped
lol.. ok. Play it, PLEASE, play it and tell us its not broken, I dare you!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would argue that SR and Dark Armor have clearly better defenses than Ice, and Regen isn't too badly off, either.
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, with Elude, an SR Scrapper will exceed an Ice Tanker vs most mobs defensively.
Its just another thing that feels wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I had elude specifically in mind when I posted. SR is better without it, though, simply for having Def vs. fire, toxic, and psi.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
I figure since at this point Stateman hasn't revealed all the Hibernate changes, and he only asked me to remain quiet on the one point that he already told everyone, I figured I'd post the full details he gave me:
[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please note, that I immediately questioned him on the rate of the Recovery boost and if the Regen boost was changed at all, no response on either of those points. I also wanted to know if we could cancel the power (de-toggle) or if it was now a clicky - I didn't think that part was clear. If its still a toggle, that's cool, because it may, in fact, be the first power that is a duration limited toggle, meaning some new tech.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like most of the changes, but I don't understand the 45s change.
But I like doing silly stuff like hibernating in a public place - or did like, when I played Maiden more.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stranger and stranger...
Ok, so assuming "New Tech", with a limited time Toggle, and what do we gain? Another power that recovers endo. Isn't that what EA does now? Isn't that the only thing EA does now, at all well? And it STILL causes you to stop Tanking. Of course, in light of Issue 5, and the death of our defenses, I'm sure it'll be more useful since true tanking is dead. Tanks can't survive to hold aggro, so I suspect we'll see more "Lone Wolf" types. This saves our rears, tells the rest of the party to scatter or die, and we'll get some additional endo back.
* Woot *
And what if it's a click power now (which I'd bet it really is)? You must stay in, and you can't come out. How can that possibly be better then it currently is. It would become even less effective then it is now.
Circ, I seriously hope that Statesman asked you to keep quiet on other changes to Hibernate. Like the fact that it's been turned into 45 second Granite Armor for Ice Tanks. Or has an unbelievable taunt aura. Or something equally redeeming for the Ice Tanks who still play those toons.
Or shall we start playing a game where we guess how next they will hurt Ice Tanks...?
- edited for typo -
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it just occured to be that me that there might be another subtle (or major) change to Hibernate. The 45 second time limit is suspiciously the same as Energy Absorptions duration. No toggles are being dropped. And why another End Recovery boost? That got me to thinking...
It might be there is a change to Hibernate that Statesman didn't let out. The Phase Shift aspect is being gotten rid up. Your toggles will continute to work and affect the mobs around you. You aren't taken totally out of the fight, the Health and End boosts give you recovery and help mitigate the mobs beating on you. (And out of the blue they might be some +DEF added also.) But you are frozen, you can't attack nor Taunt. The time limit ensure that you can't maintain that state forever. You've got to come out and face the music eventually. Those changes would make Hibernate worthy of being a 9th Tier Primary Power, in my humble opinion of course
And the above is totally a SWAG (Scientific Wide Asinine Guess). 
Ok,
I decided to see how bad it was for Chilly Chilli on test with I5 (lvl 31 ice/ice tank). I spent about an hour seeing how things would/could go.
It is unbelievable - 1 minion and 3 even +1 level leuts and 3 +2 level leuts ate me for breakfast. Granted I did not use any insps but normally I would be able to pretty much at least stand there and just see down/up health bar in the 75-100 range. I ran in, popped off energy absorption (my supposed top power) and proceeded to get hit 3 times in a row - I knew right then and there I was in a LOT of trouble with I5. EA managed to get 3 mobs; uh, where can I regularly find the other 11!!!!
So it seems for an ice tank anyway, based on my trial run is that the best course of action - don't even bother with EA at all; get tough, weave and health all 6 slotted because it felt like Ice has no defence anymore. What is the point of getting an end boost with a minor hint of defence when I can't last long enough to use the end anyway? So much for defence, it literally felt gone.
Statesman, please, go onto Virtue, grab my toon, head over to founders and run around for a while. Make sure to bring a discount card for the hospital though because they are gonna know you by your first name there.
We need defence back. I mean, EA giving endurance; who cares. CE giving me a damage mitigator - even running tough I hardly noticed any mitigation. There is simply no way I could tank for my supergroup as a main tank on 8 person team, absolutely impossible. Backup tank, sure, but our SG is heavy on controllers not tanks so we are normally lucky to have a tank at all, let alone two.
As I mentioned in my PM to you, this I5 as it stands really makes ice/ice to me feel virtually unplayable. I cannot in good faith use this tank on my SG and expect to actually tank for them - unless that now means trying to pull part of the groups off for EVERY single group. By the time a normal mob came for me and I got close enough to hit EA I would most certainly be pretty close to dead. That encounter I mentioned above - the first one of my run around - lasted about 25 seconds tops. I was down to 50% in 10 seconds - maybe my EA activation was a second late and so they all got a first cheap shot, dunno. But think about what that means, EA if even remotely close to being off in timing or not close enough to enough guys is gonna mean a smack down.
Please please please, do something to get the defence numbers back up!