[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
[censored]
I certainly hope Phase Shift gets this duration treatment as well. And while we're at it, let's [censored] over Granite too. I demand equal opportunity [censored]! 
[ QUOTE ]
Hibernate (Tanker and ancillary): Reduced its End Cost. Your toggles will not drop. It has a Recovery Boost. Fixed(improved) its Cast time. You can only stay Hibernated for 45 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the only change then this represents a major and inexplicable nerf. At least with phase shift we can leave it on as long as needed. On the other hand, if we can continue to taunt or otherwise affect mobs through hibernate it would be a major upgrade.
So the question is, are we being buffed or nerfed here? A bit of clarification would go a long way so we know to be jubilant or despondant. 
I'm sure he forgot to mention the 1000 second recharge it'll get too.
[ QUOTE ]
I like most of the changes, but I don't understand the 45s change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its the only change that I'd really say is PvP oriented. Most every PvP battle I've participated in has resulted in me getting frustrated, kicking of Hibernate and forcing a draw.
Oh if anyone was interested in exactly what my brain dump about Hibernate to Statesman was, this is from the email I sent to him:
[ QUOTE ]
Okay... Hibernate...
Before I get into it there is no denying that the heal on this power is strong, but as a Tier 9 power it just doesn't compare. Its single pro is the heal.
Slotting it for anything other than a single end doesn't play out well either (I've tried several different ways on test). There is no happy balance to be found between recharge, heal, and endurance that so may other powers can find with their enhancements (take Granite Armor above as a perfect example). Its basically slot for End and move on, because nothing makes it significantly better or more useful.
It also costs tremendously more End than a power like Granite, yet (if you could be hit while in it), the heal would not keep you alive nearly as well as Granite Armor will especially when backed up by Rooted.
Then there's the bogus simulated End crash where powers seem to randomly power off when the power is activated. This seems to have something to do with if you have Stamina and/or if you have End Reducers slotted into the powers. There's not actually a real End Crash when activating the power, but yet the powers turn off. And its not only pool powers, there was a whole thread about it on the forums where people had different results with various powers. I don't think anyone saw the same powers consistently turn off when activating Hibernate.
Then there's the loss of functional management while this power is active. By functional management, I mean the ability to turn powers on or activate them while Hibernated. Hibernate is just a Phase Shift, yet the other 3 self Phase Shift powers I know of in game: Phase Shift, Nebulous Form, and Quantum Flight, all allow you to do whatever you like whenever you like while using the power - including movement (heck Quantum Flight is the fastest movement power in game for the most part).
Also the delay in activation is too long and twofold. You get a delay while activating the power and then a delay while waiting for the heal to kick in. During this time you can be hit and you can be killed.
What needs changing?
The power needs, at the very least, to allow for functional management. People need to be allowed to do more than queue up a single power to fire up as soon as you exit Hibernate. They need to be able to make sure they can fire up their powers (same as with the other Phase Shifts) before they turn Hibernate off.
The heal and immobilize should be in better sync. You should not be immobilized until you are already healing. Right now you immobilize then the increased heal goes off seconds later.
Let us do something else while Hibernating. Unstoppable and Granite Armor allow you to continue fighting, and they are both far stronger than powers defensively than the heal on Hibernate is. And they can be used in conjunction with other powers in the set (the ever popular Granite + Rooted for example). Maybe let us use Chilling Embrace while Hibernated. Something. Anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to post this in case anyone though I might have said anything to garner the 45s limitation. As you can see, some of what I said was taken to heart, and some of what I said its questionable if anything got acted upon.
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to post this in case anyone though I might have said anything to garner the 45s limitation. As you can see, some of what I said was taken to heart, and some of what I said its questionable if anything got acted upon.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like there's a disconnect between how Ice works and how Statesman thinks it should work. It's like there's some kind of weird idea that it's actually effective lodged in the devs' heads.
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[ QUOTE ]
It seems like there's a disconnect between how Ice works and how Statesman thinks it should work. It's like there's some kind of weird idea that it's actually effective lodged in the devs' heads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice was effective though I4. It had a lot of quirks, and maybe too much DEF, but that DEF got reigned in too far. I still say had they left all other DEF alone, but removed the DEF from EA and make it a Recovery/Taunt power completely we would have been far more in line with the other Tanker sets for I5 than we are now on Test.
I can tell you right now, I've tried a few different builds on Test, I can't really get anything that feels right for the amount of effort needed to play the build. Its to the point where I'm working on my Peacebringer and my Stone Tank (shhh... don't tell the Stone Tanks who are upset with me) and haven't taken my Ice Tanker out on live but once since I5 hit the test server, and I don't really think I plan to play him after I5 goes live.
Doesn't mean I'll stop being a thorn in the devs side about it.
I signed up to play a Tanker not a low damage Scrapper with a bit more health. That's just how I feel about it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to post this in case anyone though I might have said anything to garner the 45s limitation. As you can see, some of what I said was taken to heart, and some of what I said its questionable if anything got acted upon.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like there's a disconnect between how Ice works and how Statesman thinks it should work. It's like there's some kind of weird idea that it's actually effective lodged in the devs' heads.
[/ QUOTE ]
<resits urge to make a crack about whats lodged in the dev's heads>
Oh wait, I guess I didnt resist strong enough
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to post this in case anyone though I might have said anything to garner the 45s limitation. As you can see, some of what I said was taken to heart, and some of what I said its questionable if anything got acted upon.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like there's a disconnect between how Ice works and how Statesman thinks it should work. It's like there's some kind of weird idea that it's actually effective lodged in the devs' heads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice & SR, I'd say. Pretty much any time DEF enters into it, using Invincibility as further example that the mechanics of defense are (pun intended) eluding the devs.
Hrm, States had a meeting with Geko about Ice armor. Maybe Geko should be our true target of the Inquisition.
I think the proper comment would be about where you think the devs' heads are lodged.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like there's a disconnect between how Ice works and how Statesman thinks it should work. It's like there's some kind of weird idea that it's actually effective lodged in the devs' heads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice was effective though I4. It had a lot of quirks, and maybe too much DEF, but that DEF got reigned in too far. I still say had they left all other DEF alone, but removed the DEF from EA and make it a Recovery/Taunt power completely we would have been far more in line with the other Tanker sets for I5 than we are now on Test.
[/ QUOTE ]
I specifically meant Ice with the I5 changes, not I4 and earlier.
[ QUOTE ]
I can tell you right now, I've tried a few different builds on Test, I can't really get anything that feels right for the amount of effort needed to play the build. Its to the point where I'm working on my Peacebringer and my Stone Tank (shhh... don't tell the Stone Tanks who are upset with me) and haven't taken my Ice Tanker out on live but once since I5 hit the test server, and I don't really think I plan to play him after I5 goes live.
Doesn't mean I'll stop being a thorn in the devs side about it.
I signed up to play a Tanker not a low damage Scrapper with a bit more health. That's just how I feel about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm right there with you.
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Don't mind me, just a casual gamer giving his feedback.
I would say the inherent problem with ice tanks is the reliance on pure defense, (i'm sure other people have made you well aware of this fact :P) but with little else. My suggestion (that most likely has been suggested) is changing Glacial Armour to be +Res Energy, negative and Psychic damage.
This makes Ice tankers more desirable in the late game, gives them some more resistances (Just fire and ice isn't enough), but still gives them a negative quirk (IE they are going to be hurt more then any other tank if hit by smashing/leathal damage.)
Well thats my two cents.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't mind me, just a casual gamer giving his feedback.
I would say the inherent problem with ice tanks is the reliance on pure defense, (i'm sure other people have made you well aware of this fact :P) but with little else. My suggestion (that most likely has been suggested) is changing Glacial Armour to be +Res Energy, negative and Psychic damage.
This makes Ice tankers more desirable in the late game, gives them some more resistances (Just fire and ice isn't enough), but still gives them a negative quirk (IE they are going to be hurt more then any other tank if hit by smashing/leathal damage.)
Well thats my two cents.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was actually thinking about this the other day but if you added resitance like that then they would have to add at least a little bit of defense to fire, like remove Burn and add a passive tough hide like skill.
I always liked the idea of giving equal parts resistance AND defense to the various ice armors. That way an ice tanker could go with a decent amount of defense and a bit of resistance, or vice versa, to whatever. Like with issue 5, the number is what, 17%?
Without energy absorption, with one end reducer in the main armors, that'd give you like what, 17% resist and 34% defense (or vice versa) to negative/energy and smash/lethal with the two armors that aren't actually gutted here.
Or even a middle ground with 3 SOs of each type (and no end reducer thanks to EA) for what, 27.5% resist and defense?
As far as cold resist/defense... meh. Just put that in permafrost. It's not like many villains use it anyway, and you could always make that a high value passive (to make up for it not being in the main armors).
And wet ice... there's always the holy grail of toxic/psi (to leave Fire as ice's one true weakness), or fire/toxic (since the developers seem to think everybody has to have a weakness to psi) or fire/psi (because they're too darn lazy to code toxic defense).
Any one of those could work really.
And if it were also the 17% +res / +def, you'd have a tanker that could attract insane aggro, at least moderately defend/resist against it, and with a good team (this is the IDEA, right?) make them the ubertanker with buffs and such. And still have one glaring damage-type (fire, or toxic, or psi) weakness.
This would also remove the +def 'roll of the dice' weakness, or at least blunt it. Along with the -damage effect from chilling embrace, you could keep your AV damage where it's at on live, allowing those guys to still be the threat they're supposed to be, and at the same time allow an ice tank to actually TANK for a team.
And with energy absorption, you could at least make up for the huge drain from those toggles. All you'd need to do would be to fix the end drain on icicles and, for the love of pete, NOT turn hiberate into a 45 second duration power.
This has been my armchair developer post for ice armor. Enjoy.
Please for the love of God devs give this set back some of its defense or give it some resists or increase the power of the slow on chilling embrace...
Just do something... also please fix force fields, super reflexes, trick archery, the end cost on archery, increase the duration on instant healing to 120seconds, lower the endo cost on teleport so more people take it, fix that stupid burn fear thing, and maybe reduce the recharges on AoE holds a lil bit.
But what we're seeing with Issue 5 Ice Tanks is almost the total loss of our "defining" abilities... In I4, we were Defense masters, but had no Resistance to speak of (cold aside). We could be effective, but had a unique set of issues to overcome.
In Issue 5, our only claim to fame is endo recovery. I've run my Ice Tank, and watched my Wife play her Invulnerability tank. She can take on a spawn with a few minions and a Lt. or two. She takes damage but can manage. She can even go against +1 or +2 mobs.
My Ice Tank got slammed by 4 or 5 white minions, and 2 Lt's. I run 6 slotted Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor, and about 4 defense slots in EA, as well as 6 slotted Tough. I have not yet respec'ed Weave in, so I suppose I still need to try that. But they hit me far too often, and I really notice that Tough has been toned down. I am highly concerned that Ice is going to be unplayable in larger groups.
Did I have a defender attached at the hip? No, but neither did my Wife. Stone Tanks I accept should be total package tankers, because Granite Armor gives up so much. But Invincibility can now give a greater defense boost then all of our defense powers, fully slotted. And have resistances to boot.
Again - One power from Invulnerability can outshine all powers combined from ours, for Defense. They can get more Defense then the Defense only set. Something's gotta be wrong with that...
But should we nerf Invulnerability further? Heck no. I'd just like to see Statesman post that he's played an Ice Tank in the 40's, and can tell us that we're balanced against the other Tanks.
10% Damage Debuff? Let me test it and see... Changes to Hibernate? Hope the Phase Shift is gone, so we'll see on that too.
I agree JJ_Jason. It is like when I walk into the wrong apartment. Sure, it looks similar, but obviously something is wrong here.
Energy Absorption used to be our powerful defensive ability. We would suffer for 26 levels and finally get something that allowed us to tank. Sure, Geko may have been right that it was "too powerful", but it was all we had. We did get stacking armor which is great, but we still need EA to give us the defense to tank especially when we were on teams fighting higher level mobs. I'm fine with bringing the effectiveness of the power down, but shouldn't we get a lot more from other powers as compensation? Circeus has went to a lot of effort to show that we don't match up to other tankers and various scrappers (even the defense scrapper SR). I'm not a numbers guy, but I certainly knew that we didn't match up just playing the game. I've watched repeatedly on teams where various builds (tankers & scrappers) would out-tank my tanker which I always slot for defense any way I can get it.
So now we are presented with Issue 5 where we are masters of endurance recovery. Is this just because Icicles costs so much endurance to run, or is this our new niche? I just feel lost right now after 42 levels of casual ice tank play. I thought we were supposed to be tankers where our powers are defensive in nature. Our primary is armor after all.
I made a concept tank way back in beta, but how it would have been easier to just change him to a broadsword/invulnerable scrapper instead. I hope to make it to level 50, but I keep finding it hard to log in after Issue 5 hit the test servers.
One other point that has been brought up a few times. I really don't like the idea of Wet Ice not accepting more defensive enhancements. This idea of the haves and the have-nots is not good. Of course, this is a minimal amount of defense fully slotted, but I just don't think it is a good idea.
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I got really annoyed earlier and said the devs "must hate ice" which I'm sure they don't, but I just don't understand.
Why can't they just take an ice tank in the 30s or 40s, and play it, an Invuln tank, a Granite tank, and a Fire tank for an hour each? I know they haven't done it or they wouldn't think that ice was just as good as the others....
Its so bizzare. They should know that Ice is gimped on Test. They're devs for [Insert Diety Here]'s sake. But it's like arguing that the sky is blue with someone who thinks its green. At some point you just have to accept that no matter how logical you are you can't convince them. No matter how many independant observers agree with you and no matter how precisely you examine the light waves' frequency to prove that it's blue....
in the end, they still think it's green.
It's simply a fundamental disconnect on the state of reality.
[ QUOTE ]
I got really annoyed earlier and said the devs "must hate ice" which I'm sure they don't, but I just don't understand.
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't hate Ice. They hate *defense*.
Defense has many advantages over resistance. A resistance tanker can be brought down by sappers, by stacked holds, or by resistance debuffs. None of those things matter to a hero with high defense, because none of those things *hit* when your defense is high enough. High defense scares the devs, because they seem to think there is nothing they can do to stop it.
Except...in reality, everything stops it. There are more defense hosers in the game than resistance hosers, by a factor of about 10 to 1. (This is not hyperbole. The only resistance debuffers are Council Sonics. Every mook with an assault gun or handaxe debuffs defense.) There are more things that totally ignore defense (Toxic damage, caltrops and swarms. The only thing that ignores resistance is untyped damage from a couple AVs, not counting the psi vulnerability that defense also has.) Defense-based sets have more vulnerabilities. Defense in PvP is a joke because player accuracy buffs are so incredibly strong. And defense is the only set of powers in the game affected by the streakbreaker, a deus ex machina that swoops down on you every once in a while and declares you naked and helpless by divine fiat.
Defense sucks compared to resistance, in practice. But the devs don't see that -- they look at spreadsheets that tell them 20% defense is equivalent to 40% resistance (with base 50% chance for a minion to hit, 20% defense in theory means you're taking 30% of the minion's damage. To get the same value in theory for resistance, you need 40% resistance.) And with those numbers in hand, they make defense worse by far than any other damage mitigation strategy in the game. In reality, to balance the game, they'd have to make defense much, much stronger than their spreadsheets tell them to, because it has so many vulnerabilities. But they don't see that, and won't do it.
The devs don't know what they're doing and they don't really play this game. That's the only explanation that I can think of for the defense nerfs in I5.
...
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I'm getting pretty depressed by the proposed changes to Ice, too.
I dislike the proposal to let Wet Ice retain Defense slots for long-term players, but not for newcomers. I don't want my level 50 Ice/Axe Tanker to be treated differently from a fresh one out of the box.
I'm waiting for the next round of changes on Test before I comment on speculated changes to Hibernate or Chilling Embrace. I only wish I could say that I was waiting with cautious optimism. I feel that the changes reflected on Test, thus far, have shifted Tankers even further away from the concept of the comic book "brick."
In the spirit of brainstorming and feedback, I offer the following suggestion: Has anyone considered letting Ice deflect a flat amount of damage per attack? Even a small amount would be helpful without breaking the game. For example, an Ice Tanker could subtract a flat 10 points of damage from each hit. This would not provide appreciable help against the powerful attacks of high-level villains, but it would effectively let Ice shrug off Swarms and Caltrops as dealing no damage.
I still don't see any changes mentioned from the devs to keep me playing. If I can't play an Ice tank (yes I wanted to play more then just my level 50 main) I don't see the point in playing.
In effect this is my good bye post. My account will be deactivated on 9/5/05, barring a change that I think will make Ice tanks worth playing.
I don't want to be uber, that's not the point, never has been. But if a tank is suppossed to take the damage for the team, and maintain aggro Ice is not hte power set you choose. An 8 person team facing many AV's is better off with any defender then it is with an Ice Tank.
Anyway I wanted to wish all of you Ice tanks good luck. As well as give another public thank you to Circeus who I hope the devs continue to listen too.
It just seemed like it was time to vote with my wallet, and that vote is no.
I'm still holding out some hope that a change will come in that will change my mind at which point I'll gladly re-up. I'm just not seeing it at this point.
Good luck all, this ice tank is melting into the sunset.
on Virtue:
Darkennedy dark/sonic Def
Lena Slayer NightWidow
Vengeful Woman Energy/Rad Corruptor
Hella Effing Cool cold/sonic def
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't they just take an ice tank in the 30s or 40s, and play it, an Invuln tank, a Granite tank, and a Fire tank for an hour each? I know they haven't done it or they wouldn't think that ice was just as good as the others
[/ QUOTE ]
Because they have different expectations. The designers of a game always have an extremely different perspective. It comes from being too close to the systems, rather than thousands of hours of real-world gameplay experience with all kinds of pick-up groups.
Until (and probably even after) I see some demos (never will), I refuse to believe Statesman's Grav/Storm gameplay reflects what I personally would consider good control. How could it? But he thinks it is, so what can I do? Nothing. Ice Tanks are faced with the same situation.
Has given up,
FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of brainstorming and feedback, I offer the following suggestion: Has anyone considered letting Ice deflect a flat amount of damage per attack? Even a small amount would be helpful without breaking the game. For example, an Ice Tanker could subtract a flat 10 points of damage from each hit. This would not provide appreciable help against the powerful attacks of high-level villains, but it would effectively let Ice shrug off Swarms and Caltrops as dealing no damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds like a job for....permafrost!
[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of brainstorming and feedback, I offer the following suggestion: Has anyone considered letting Ice deflect a flat amount of damage per attack? Even a small amount would be helpful without breaking the game. For example, an Ice Tanker could subtract a flat 10 points of damage from each hit. This would not provide appreciable help against the powerful attacks of high-level villains, but it would effectively let Ice shrug off Swarms and Caltrops as dealing no damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Things like this have been suggested many times--the reason?..it is a sound idea. Or another possibility would be to let Ice literally reflect damage...say, back at the attacker. So 10% of imcoming damage shoots (reflects) off the ice. Call it *gong sounds*..."Reflective Ice".
Man, I just give up.
I was going to go and point out how senseless this is, but I just can't even get worked up over this any more.
Why is this power set even around still?