Not a reply to Yelloducky... but for the newest changes:
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Ice Armor/Hibernate will no longer disable your toggle powers when you activate it. You cannot, however, activate new powers once Hibernate is on, and any of your powers will still not affect anyone else. Hibernate will now also give you an Endurance Recovery boost.
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Ice Armor/Wet Ice no longer accepts Defense Enhancements. Base defense value for Wet Ice was increased (about doubled, as though it had 6 SOs) to compensate. Old Enhancements will continue to work until they expire. This change was done to help prevent players from inefficiently using Def Enhancements in this power.
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Ice Armor/Permafrost now gives resistance to Slow.
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Increased Energy and Negative Energy Defense for Ice Armor/Glacial Armor.
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Slightly Improved Ice Armor/Frozen Armor defense to Smashing and Lethal attacks.
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So, Hibernate still Phase Shifts, and is just as bad as before. More endo, and a timer... just as Circ mentioned it would.
Permafrost does slow resist. Not that anybody takes it.
Wet Ice now has the "have's and have not's". But with the boost at 3%, will anybody really mind?
They've increased the defenses of FA and GA. Circ mentioned 17% and 17%. Since the wording is different, does it stand that they are not equal? And how much better are they now?
And the great Unspoken? Damage debuff... still missing. I guess this is one of those "we'll get it in later" things.
I could test it when I get home. And I can also pretend to care about playing my Ice Tank on live after I5. At least he's already rich, so he can just buy a nice SG base when that comes around.
What happened to the damage debuff that was supposed to come in for ice tankers on the most recent patch?
Looks to me like the Hibernate changes aren't even really on the test server yet...
On one character, Ice Armor Toggles (CE/WI/FA/GA) remained running, but SuperJump, Sprint, and two temp powers turned off.
On another character only Icicles, WI, and CE remained running, Tough, Frozen Armor, Glacial Armor, Combat Jumping, Sprint, and two temp power all turned off when activated.
It appears 100% identicle to the way it was functioning yesterday.
So I'd consider pulling it from the patch notes.
Edit: yes End Drain still looks about the same as always.
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Wet Ice now has the "have's and have not's". But with the boost at 3%, will anybody really mind?
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It's less than you think.
Statesman said the wet ice +def was .5% previously. Doubling that is only increasing it to 1% (though with six even level +def SOs you could conceivably get it to 1.1% before). Same effective difference, so I'm not quibbling about .1%. So the 'grandfather clause' isn't quite as imbalancing as people would like to think.
With six +def SOs in the new value on test, you're getting what, 2.2%? You're still better off six-slotting combat jump (who ever though a level 6 +def pool power would be more effective than a +def primary power by a factor of 3?)
I'm thinking I'm still going to drop an attack and move those slots to Permafrost, in order to at least get some sort of fire damage mitigation. I think I calculated it out to an effective 46% resistance with six slots in perma.
With the upcoming damage debuff of 10% (?) in chilling embrace, you're reducing incoming damage from affected targets to 90%. So say a fire attack dealing 100 points of damage is Chilled, for a net result of 90 points pre-resists.
Then with your unenhanced 12.5% resist in frozen armor added to your 27.5% six-slotted permafrost, you subtract 40% from the 90 for the low low net incoming damage of 54. Which isn't too bad really; it's almost as though ice armor is trading piddling fire +def for not-sucky fire +res.
Now if we could just do SOMETHING about toxic...
But my real question is, just how big an increase did the frozen and glacial armors get?
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Looks to me like the Hibernate changes aren't even really on the test server yet...
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People have mentioned that the changes to Phase Shift are for PVP only. Is our Hibernate change only PVP as well?
- JJ
Well it says "about doubled" and mentions 6 even SOs. Which means its likely fixed at 1.1% not 1.0%. If you have 6 SOs for DEF now in the power it works out to 2.42%, but your right, that's not going to save you at all long term.
With the 12.5% Fire RES in FA and PF, and the fact that you can enhance PF you can net at best, with +3 SOs, 42.25%.
I'd like to know about the Frozen Armor situation, specifically what the value actually is (and if its higher than the 17% that Statesman told me in private), I just won't have the time to test this weekend at all (going to Disney World - they can't nerf that!!!). Because the situation we were in 100% guarantees a need to take Tough, no matter how you slice it. And that's a matter they need to address.
It would have been nice to see the Damage Debuff in action, but you gotta figure this goes live next Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, and that will be the first time we see it. Live. So much for testing.
I figure Stateman considers us "done" since he's cut off contact with me for more than a week now, and there were still many outstanding questions that he never bothered to answer.
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People have mentioned that the changes to Phase Shift are for PVP only. Is our Hibernate change only PVP as well?
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I figure the 45s thing that he told me probably is.
But if the toggle stuff and End Recovery and reduced End that he told me is as well, then he's really very good at not listening at all, even when you're talking right to him like I was.
And well... he posted it here and did not say it was PvP only.
I supposed that doesn't mean it isn't. But if all the changes are PvP only, why even bother.
Doesn't matter... still not going to bother playing Ice for I5.
If I want to play a Tanker, I'll play a Stone Tanker, at least they can survive anything short of a litteral nuclear attack within game when they're in Granite Armor with Rooted Running.
I'll make sure not to even give a crap tomorrow when I'm at WDW, though I may drink a glass of something to complete and utter lack of balance persisting until the day another company releases a competing genre game.
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I just won't have the time to test this weekend at all (going to Disney World - they can't nerf that!!!).
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Um.... what the hell are you talking about? Disney World can't be nerfed 'cause it is nerf. *shudders*.
Robot Lawyer's prediction: Cir comes back from WDW with "It's a small small world" stuck in his head. He then composes a post begging for the name of Hibernate to be changed to "Happy Place".
Umm, I'm just back from the Training Room server...
Did they "not" make the changes indicated? I used Hibernate, but it doesn't indicate endo recovery at all. And with most of my toggles running, I was losing endo, not gaining it back.
So, did they not push to server?
- JJ
Yeah, I figured 1% or 1.1%, negligible real difference from fight to fight, so either way it's sort of blah. I am not keeping those slots in wet ice because that would be foolish. Foolish I tell you! Assuming I even use the set with issue 5 and ... I really don't have it in me. Unless the 'slight' increase in frozen and glacial armor matches the 'slight' decrease Wet Ice got when i5 first went to test.
Either way, have fun on your excursion. I haven't been down that-a-way in years, and I usually enjoy the surrealness when I do. Though since you LIVE there you would know better than I do... heh.
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Umm, I'm just back from the Training Room server...
Did they "not" make the changes indicated? I used Hibernate, but it doesn't indicate endo recovery at all. And with most of my toggles running, I was losing endo, not gaining it back.
So, did they not push to server?
- JJ
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The patch hasn't been downloaded yet.
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I think we should all just delete our Ice Tankers as SOON as I5 hits Live if they don't roll back some of these changes or tweak them a bit more.
I wonder what the datamining would look like if a gigantic drop in Ice Tanker numbers happened within hours of I5 going Live.
It'll be like a giant Ice Tanker strike. After all, not playing an Ice Tanker is the only way we'll be able to avoid attacks given I5's defense numbers. <chuckle>
Oy...that's all I have to say...oy.
My faith is melting away faster than my Frozen Armor at this point.
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I think we should all just delete our Ice Tankers as SOON as I5 hits Live if they don't roll back some of these changes or tweak them a bit more.
I wonder what the datamining would look like if a gigantic drop in Ice Tanker numbers happened within hours of I5 going Live.
It'll be like a giant Ice Tanker strike. After all, not playing an Ice Tanker is the only way we'll be able to avoid attacks given I5's defense numbers. <chuckle>
Oy...that's all I have to say...oy.
My faith is melting away faster than my Frozen Armor at this point.
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Check my I5 respec link in my sig.
Also, I would rather people logged into their ice tankers when it goes live, and get a team of eight, and go tanking without the aid of any defenders that can buff defense or debuff accuracy.
Anyway, check out Statesman's most recent post to the Defender thread for an explanation as to why defense is apparently so good compared to resistance.
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Yes, I would rather people play their ice tanks in I5. Part of the reason we have been overlooked for so long is because of simple economics; it makes much more sense to cater your resources to where the most people are..after all that is where most of your problems/interests are--give the people what they want. (yes yes, i know...the minority has a voice too...I'm just talking about practical application here). So really, it would only serve us better if everyone has an ice tank. Having said that... it would suck to lose that feeling of being unique if there were as many Ice tanks as their are Fire.
As far as Statesman's comments in the defender section... It left me feeling really sad... not that people disagreed with his reasoning but that a FF defender can get such high defense numbers and pass them out to anyone AND have it perma. What exactly am I (an ice tank) here for again? It would seem to me that of all the sets, the defense tanker should have unequalled status in this area.
Which gets me thinking...
If States rationalizes us having less defense than other sets because of us (tankers) having greater hitpoints, inherent taunt abilities and status protection, then what can I (a player) "give up" to get what I want? What do I need to sacrifice in order to get my wish, unequalled defense in this game.
I have been thinking about this for a long time and it is one of the few areas of Ice that I have not settle in my mind. Stone tanks are by far the most survivable (complete) tank in I5. they have maxed resistence, respectable defense and very nice regenerative abilites, making them...well, rocks. To get this though they have to pay a very large price.
So, I ask you, the community, assuming that we would have to pay our price, what would it be to have the best defense in the game, bar none?
I have pondered this for a while, and yes it is all hypothetical, but what would it be--the cost? Say a new 9th-tier click power arrived that provided +50% defense in addition to toggles, doubled chilling embrace, provided 50% damage debuff and healed all of the tanks hitpoints when activated (too powerful, I know...just focus on the cost, not the power). What would this power be worth?
The cost would have to be very steep. Stone pays for their power with -speed, -jump, -fly, -recharge, -damage. We couldn't use these because they go against the nature of ice; ice being built around mobility and resistence to slowing effects. But how about the -damage part? For some uber 9th tier power I don't think taking a substancial -damage hit would be unfair. ... ...but that's as far I have gotten. What other costs could there be. We can't do -movement/recharge because its against the set. We can't have the power end with an End crash like Elude because, again, it's against the end gaining already established in EA. What else is there beside the obvious 1000 recharge?
In fact, for a click power that did all that, I don't think I'd mind having a 90% reduction in my attacking damage output--if it meant I had that kind of survivability. And a 90% reduction would mean I'd only use it on AVs and in large team situations. Heck, make it a 30 minute recharge along with the -damage. But surely you guys can come up with more creative (fun) disadvantages for a new uber power.
*I'm really not interested in ideas for new uber powers, but more in what you'e be willing to pay for a power that would make us, bar none, the best at what we do, our corner of the game*
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Also, I would rather people logged into their ice tankers when it goes live, and get a team of eight, and go tanking without the aid of any defenders that can buff defense or debuff accuracy.
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Say what? There are actually 8 ice tanks on a server? This I've gotta see!
Save the drama for yo' mama.
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Also, I would rather people logged into their ice tankers when it goes live, and get a team of eight, and go tanking without the aid of any defenders that can buff defense or debuff accuracy.
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Say what? There are actually 8 ice tanks on a server? This I've gotta see!
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Actually, if you had a team of 8 Ice tankers... wow, what a nasty force that would be. Anything that you faced would almost immediately be drained of all endurance (and if you could get the team to stagger EA, it would stay drained permanently) and with 8 stacked Chilling Embraces enemies would have an attack rate that was floored. It would be a very potent force.
Of course, you, the player, would most likely have a photo-sensitive seizure because of all that white light on your screen.
Yeah, but who would rezz them all when the team wiped?
On a different note, I played with the new Hibernate change. The "45 second duration" is non-existent in PvE. Don't know about PvP though. Also, the End Recovery is nice. I took the End Reducer out of Hibernate, ran all of my toggles with it on and I gained endurance.
So now we have 2 good End Recovery powers... too bad End Recovery isn't a form of effective damage mitigation.
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Also, I would rather people logged into their ice tankers when it goes live, and get a team of eight, and go tanking without the aid of any defenders that can buff defense or debuff accuracy.
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Say what? There are actually 8 ice tanks on a server? This I've gotta see!
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I know of eight on Champion, but what I mean is getting into a team of eight with Ice as the only tanker, without an FF, Dark, or Rad defender to bolster the tanker's defense.
The purpose of such things is so that if the devs datamine, they can see the horrifying debt fests that result.
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Has anyone tested the latest test server patch 8/19/05 it has the following ice changes
<ul type="square">[*]Increased Energy and Negative Energy Defense for Ice Armor/Glacial Armor.
[*]Slightly Improved Ice Armor/Frozen Armor defense to Smashing and Lethal attacks.
[*]Ice Armor/Permafrost now gives resistance to Slow.
[*]Ice Armor/Wet Ice no longer accepts Defense Enhancements. Base defense value for Wet Ice was increased (about doubled, as though it had 6 SOs) to compensate. Old Enhancements will continue to work until they expire. This change was done to help prevent players from inefficiently using Def Enhancements in this power.
[*]All archetypes will now be able to reach their Max Defense sooner (was level 40, now level 20). Tankers now have a higher Defense cap than Scrappers and Kheldians. Scrappers and Kheldians have a higher Defense cap than all other archetypes.
[*]Ice Armor/Hibernate will no longer disable your toggle powers when you activate it. You cannot, however, activate new powers once Hibernate is on, and any of your powers will still not affect anyone else. Hibernate will now also give you an Endurance Recovery boost.
[*]All Taunts (pool, tanker and scrapper) will now only be effective 50% of the time when used in PvP (not an accuracy decrease, so it cannot be modified with enhancements).
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About to check it out right now.
Looks promising, as long as Wet Ice has been doubled from its I4 value. 
But I don't get this defense thing at all. What is this "Max Defense?" What do these changes mean? It makes me really concerned about what the to-hit floor for squishies are now though...
I did a few quick tests on the new -damage aspect of Chilling Embrace. Here are my numbers as of 8/20/05 on test.
1) Villian=Nemesis Werfer Minion
Damage to Me without CE=120.47 smashing
Damage to Me with CE=110.77 smashing
2) Villian=CoT Guide Minion
Damage to Me without CE=120.47 lethal & 89.15 negative energy
Damage to Me with CE=112.04 lethal & 82.9 negative energy
3) Villian= CoT Behemoth Overlord Lt.
Damage to Me without CE=238.53 lethal & 14.9x4 fire
Damage to Me with CE=221.83 lethal & 14.06x4 fire
As you can see, the percentage of -damage is not 10% but somewhere more in the area of 7ish%. Obviously, further testing is required but I thought you all might like preliminary results.
*all tests were conducted against even level villians--level 50. During the tests no powers were active except the turning off and on of Chilling Embrace and the passive power Permafrost which would affect the incoming fire damage but not the percantage of change caused by Chilling Embrace.*
I got a 7% result as well, Robot.
Here's something I posted in the tanker forum:
Without chilling embrace, an even-level metal smasher hit me for 171.88 smashing. With it, he hit me for 159.85. That's 93%, or about a 7% damage debuff.
I found that I could solo an Unyielding Council mission without pausing. The without pausing was due to the end recovery from EA. I found that if I pulled two spawns together, that things would get a bit hairy, and in one case I had to use Hibernate. After that, I found that I could safely pull 2-3 spawns together without too much trouble if I used two lucks beforehand. Testing with and without icicles, I didn't notice any difference in the time it took me to defeat the villains. I spent less time waiting for EA to pop for the end without it, however.
I'm a bit disturbed about needing to use Lucks to survive two spawns, though. There's no way I can tank for a team without having an FF or Sonic defender to boost my def or resist, or having dark or rad to debuff accuracy and damage.
To clarify the bit about two spawns nearly defeating me - I'm not saying that I want it to not be a challenge. However, as soon as I had two spawns beating on me, after I used EA, my hit points dropped to red very fast. I was lucky to be able to use hibernate to recover from the damage and get back into the fight. I somehow doubt that fire, invuln, or stone, would be on the same knife-edge facing 8 +1 to +2 minions at once.
I find that EA's end recovery makes ice a better soloing set, but the loss of defense damages its ability as a teaming set.
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I did a few quick tests on the new -damage aspect of Chilling Embrace. Here are my numbers as of 8/20/05 on test.
As you can see, the percentage of -damage is not 10% but somewhere more in the area of 7ish%. Obviously, further testing is required but I thought you all might like preliminary results.
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I noticed that the patch notes did not say that the -speed or -recharge of CE has been reduced. If we're getting ~8% -damage from enemies on top of -25% recharge, I think we're in good shape on this power.
CE is the new EA - but it doesn't require any slotting.
--Mr. Strange
I just tested the changes.
Wet Ice looks like it's double the I4 value, so it's not horrible at least.
The damage debuff is somewhere around 7-10%. I wasn't using the combat window, so my numbers weren't as accurate. Also, it felt like the damage debuff had a slightly larger radius than the slow, because two Patrol Guards that weren't affected by the slow (i.e. no animation) actually hit me for debuffed damage when I had CE on and for normal damage when I turned it off.
The improvements make me happy, but I still feel like a little more could be added. I had to fire off EA against eight even cons on top of Chilling Embrace, Wet Ice (no defense buffs), and Frozen Armor before I stopped getting a net loss of HP against them.
I think that the damage debuff on Chilling Embrace should reach 20-30%. I thought the damage debuff was added so that we could stop the problem with AVs one-shotting us (without having to add real resistance); that's something Slows won't do.
With any luck, the devs might actually have meant to give us a 17% or 27% debuff, but simply forgot to type the extra number in. 
I proposed to States how to 'fix' our poor icers in 4 easy steps!
1) cancel all I5 changes
2) move end cost for icicles from 1.5 to 1; throw us a bone!
3) take the damage mitigator in I5 chilling embrace and put it into permafrost
4) reduce defence slightly in a 5 mob version of energy absorption to make him happy it is not too powerful - but keep defence at a measurable and noticeable amount
Net net, we still have plenty of holes/weaknesses. But our biggest end eater has been eased. We would have a reason to take permafrost and the change would help - but not solve - the AV one/two/three shot problem. EA would not encourage us to go on 14 mob suicidal herding sprees to get a bit of defence - no herding, win win right! Finally, to not actually provide nothing but buffs, we eat a bit of defence on our top tier power - you did not honestly think we could get just buffs did you?!
Simple, easy, shuts us up to a certain degree and way better in my mind mind than what is coming down the pipe with I5 - I can't believe I am pondering weave (another toggle!), 6 slotting health and even taking and 6 slotting aid self in order to have a hope with these I5 changes. But we will be the endurance kings (as was pointed out to me last night in a team) for what little that is worth to a tanker. Heck, in my time on test even with EA I was running out of end so even that is a stretch.