I'm pretty sure it was that significant. I'll copy my character over to Test right now and get another feel for it (I've been meaning to see the changes to Burn for my Fire Tanker anyway).
I wouldn't be surprised if Wet Ice was around 17% though. Yes, that would be a pretty significant difference between the haves and have-nots, but I guess the devs are assuming that the best you can keep that up for is five levels. And another 20% would only mean comfortably fighting two levels above normal.
And of course, they must have forgotten how level 50s would be advantaged over the others forever-- either that or they figure that since they're level 50, it doesn't matter anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it was that significant. I'll copy my character over to Test right now and get another feel for it (I've been meaning to see the changes to Burn for my Fire Tanker anyway).
I wouldn't be surprised if Wet Ice was around 17% though. Yes, that would be a pretty significant difference between the haves and have-nots, but I guess the devs are assuming that the best you can keep that up for is five levels. And another 20% would only mean comfortably fighting two levels above normal.
And of course, they must have forgotten how level 50s would be advantaged over the others forever-- either that or they figure that since they're level 50, it doesn't matter anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wha?????? Are you sure? 17%. I will admit that I could tell that defense was increased without even testing the powers... but I seriously doubt that they would give us 17%. If that really is the case then I think we can probably expect a future "fix" to this.
Think of the problems that would cause between ice tanks. There would be some people who actually had defense to fire while most people didn't (Hurry up and powerlevel to 50 everyone and do your I5 respec in I4 so you can grab the grandfather clause on ice tanks). Who knows though. At this point I've stopped trying to understand what's going on.
Also, you mentioned that you think the -damage should be 20-30%. That's a little high, I think. I don't recal States ever saying that the purpose of the -damage was specifically for the AV problem. That's just something that we--players--have attributed it too. Of course, it helps with that (barely) but I think AVs are but a piece of the Devs intent on that one.
-----------------------------
Btw, love the new signature, Cir.
Okay, so my testing was more controlled this time, and my initial impressions were incorrect.
I started by trying to get a number for fully-slotted Wet Ice (with +3s) against a Patrol Guard. I turned Wet Ice off and recorded hits versus a total of 180 Brawls (I was aiming for 200 but messed up). Then I ran away, turned on Wet Ice, and went back to the same Patrol Guard for a total of 200 Brawls. No other powers were on-- I popped two greens on the first attempt and one on the second.
Without Wet Ice: 55.555% (Patrol Guards have a bonus to Accuracy?)
With Wet Ice: 52%
That would put Wet Ice exactly where everybody said it was: 3%. Then again, it was supposed to be 3% when SLOTTED...
Second, I looked for crowds to jump. I first stopped at a crowd of eight yellow Patrol Guards, Riot Guards, and Mob Specialists (I assume they're all pretty much the same) with Frozen Armor (fully-slotted), Wet Ice (fully-slotted), and Chilling Embrace on. They took me down at a decent rate; I estimate that they would've taken me from full to zilch in ninety seconds. Over the course of the test, I popped three Dramatics twice to prolong the fight and see if I was in the middle of a streakbreaker, to no avail.
So for my next group, I came into a crowd of eight even-con Crey (another mix of Riots, Patrols, and Mobs). Used the same powers-- the enemies brought me down to 85-90% and couldn't get any further no matter how long I waited.
Finally, I ripped all of the SOs from Wet Ice and jumped another group of eight even-con Creys-- all Patrol Guards this time. They immediately brought me down to half life and forced me to pop my last green. However, this seemed to be a streakbreaker moment-- after a minute or so, they simply stopped hitting. Typically, they would take me down to 75%, but would eventually miss enough for me to heal back to 85% (one-slotted Health). I felt like I was on the borderline between surviving them and not, so having Wet Ice slotted did change things marginally.
The difference between my first impressions and my second impressions most likely had to do with surprise over the decent boost in Frozen Armor, and the fact that testing was performed in a semi-chaotic fashion the first time around.
So Wet Ice needs to go up. Make it 5% or 7.5% at least so I can floor even-con minions without having to resort to EA.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you mentioned that you think the -damage should be 20-30%. That's a little high, I think. I don't recal States ever saying that the purpose of the -damage was specifically for the AV problem. That's just something that we--players--have attributed it too. Of course, it helps with that (barely) but I think AVs are but a piece of the Devs intent on that one.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's too big a number. I believe Darkest Night and the Radiation damage debuff power (I can never tell the difference between EF and LR) do something in that vicinity, though admittedly I've never observed it that carefully to be sure.
I would like to think that the damage debuff in CE was meant to help stave off one-shotting incidents. Damage debuffs seem to work particularly well in this department-- for small numbers, the debuff is correspondingly small and won't make too much difference in the short run. For large numbers, however, the debuff can mean the difference between barely surviving and not surviving. My Inv sure felt the difference when a Radiation Controller came with us to fight Mother Mayhem (Mother Mayhem is hard? What are you people talking about? 
).
I don't think the Damage Debuff is there to just fix the one-shotting problem although it will certainly help.
Statesman:
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
So hopefully, they have indeed lowered the damage done by AVs. I didn't see it on the patch notes, but what's new, right?
If possible, I will try to test out Shadowhunter again on the test server. Hopefully, I can post some numbers and with some divine intervention, we will see that AV's damage has indeed been reduced.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Ok, hadn't noticed they'd snuck in the -damage on Chilling Embrace. Went back to run some numbers.
First off, I ran Nanoc vs a level 52 Battlemaiden, to see if some kind of "one-shotting" prevention, or overall damage reduction to AV's took place. Running my new CE, her strongest attack hit me for 1270. Assumming the 7% stands for AV's, her initial damage would be around 1375.
** Against an AV, at +2 level, and her best attack, -damage saved me 105 points of damage. **
Her minions (lvl 52 Mace Minion) went from 149 to 140. Approx 9 points of damage saved on a normal attack.
Then I decided to test stacking of CE from multiple Ice Tanks. We'd debated before how it would stack, and now we can find out with a simple test.
Took Nanoc, and had my Wife get to level 2 with an Ice Tank, and take CE. Then I had her Exemplar me down to level 2.
We found a level 2 Hellion Buckshot Lt, in Atlas Park. All damage leathal.
<ul type="square"> [*]Damage with no CE running - 5.95[*]Damage with 1 CE running - 5.53 - 7% reduction[*]Damage with 2 CE running - 5.12 - 14% reduction[/list]
The damage reduction seems to stack. Two Ice tanks get double the -damage effect. I'd like to see if that holds up, with more then just two tanks, but it looks exactly right at the moment.
So, if in ~Bizarro~ World, you had 8 Ice Tanks in a room running CE, you'd get 56% damage reduction. Didn't somebody list Enervating Field at 25%?
Conclusions? 7% is a joke. 33% was my honest wish and hope. 20% was my realistic goal. Am I happy we get something to reduce the amount of damage we're taking? Heck yeah! But if each attack a mob does to a level 50 is reduced by about 10 points of damage, it's just not making much of a difference! I'll have to test this with Circ's spreadsheet, but I remember how bad the numbers looked when I plugged in 10%.
OK, I went up against Shadowhunter on Test. He is level 43 while I'm level 42. My health is 1759.7. 2463.5 with Hoarfrost running.
I turned on Chilling Embrace, Frozen Armor, Wet Ice, Combat Jumping, and hit Hoarfrost before I jumped into battle.
He hit me first with his Stone Fist for 710.55 Smashing Damage.
I hit hibernate to see how much it was for thinking this was his big attack. The text shows that I was immobilized from the hibernate.
Then he followed up with Seismic Smash for 1421.1 Smashing Damage. I guess during the animation/loading time for Hibernate, he snuck in another attack.
I waited until I was fully healed and popped out to see how long I could last. I timed it so I would pop out right after his Seismic Smash. I hit EA grabbing defense from him and two nearby wolves. I then turned on tough.
He hit me with Stone Fist for 518.7. (Smashing)
I hit a +33% defense inspiration.
He hit me with Stone Fist for 518.7. (Smashing)
He hit me with Seismic Smash for 1037.4. (Smashing)
Apparently, AV damage was reduced. Now I'm wondering if their accuracy was reduced. He didn't miss me once. This is a very small sample size, so I will test it some more.
EDIT: I went back and he did indeed miss me some. What really helped was that I herded up 11 more wolves to follow me over to him. That way my EA was getting the full defense from the 14 foes. He still killed me pretty easy, but if I can somehow convince my team to stop using AoE attacks and leave the wolves alone, I might stand a chance to tank SH. Eh, who am I kidding? Maybe I can respec my ice tank into a stone one. Please?
The change to hibernate really does help. Now it essentially gives me another round with an AV if I can turn it on fast enough. It works a lot better now that your toggles don't just randomly drop. Keep in mind that rounds as an ice tank go pretty quick. 3 hits or so.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Jason,
Thanks for testing out the stacking of Chilling Embrace's -damage on baddies. You've saved me some time.
Another thing yall might look into--if anyone is interested--is, "Does the -damage scale with villian level?" Will it do less on a +5 villian than it will on an even level villian. In my earlier post I specifically tested CE against 2 minions and then a Lt. hoping that, if there was a difference, I would notice it. But obviously my little test is far from conclusive. Anyone know for sure?
Finally, I'm a little shocked by all of the posts I've seen in which people say they expected the -damage to be between 20-30%. From the first time I heard that we were getting it, I assumed that at the very most it would be 10%.
Think about it a second... 20-30% would be very ideal for the ice tank vrs an AV. But in regular play that would give the ice tank a huge advantage over the other I5 tanks. If Invulnerability has to use 2 powers, both 6 slotted, to get around 38% resistence to elements and energies, then giving ice tanks a flat 30% resistence (-damage) to everything in melee range (and a little beyond) for the cost of 1 power and NO additional slotting is an I5 uber power. No, I think 7% is right in-line with what I expected. Does it solve the AV problem. Of course not. (And heres the clincher) I don't think it was ever intended too. We've been reading that into it from the moment we heard about it. The -damage, imo, is another small tool to help Ice in the long-term issue of survivability, not the immediate needs presented by an AV.
This move, yet again, demonstrates my previous points made over the last several months that there is a philosophy at work in the Devs decision making that is and has been taking Ice away from being most effective against a single, powerful target, and more effective against many, lesser targets.
Again, I say this is a terrible mistake. There will NEVER be end-game or PvP equity for the Ice set unless an Ice tanker is able to gain the set's maximum defense values from a single target, not a large group of targets.
Give Frozen Armor some minor, unenhanceable resistance to smashing and leathal. I mean, they're covered in a think sheet of ice! Come on! I know we're all playing Superheroes here, but aim for a fraction of realism.
Having armor on doesn't make you get hit less, it makes you get hurt less when you get hit.
It's nothing that would make Ice lose its distinctivness from the other sets, but please give it a little mindful thought.
I'm not going to suggest a % value of resistance. Make it minor if you want, but do this in addition to everything else, not instead of.
[ QUOTE ]
Think about it a second... 20-30% would be very ideal for the ice tank vrs an AV. But in regular play that would give the ice tank a huge advantage over the other I5 tanks. If Invulnerability has to use 2 powers, both 6 slotted, to get around 38% resistence to elements and energies, then giving ice tanks a flat 30% resistence (-damage) to everything in melee range (and a little beyond) for the cost of 1 power and NO additional slotting is an I5 uber power. No, I think 7% is right in-line with what I expected. Does it solve the AV problem. Of course not. (And heres the clincher) I don't think it was ever intended too. We've been reading that into it from the moment we heard about it. The -damage, imo, is another small tool to help Ice in the long-term issue of survivability, not the immediate needs presented by an AV.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a tool meant to enable us to handle AV's on our own? Certainly not.
When I took a look at the Invulnerability vs Ice spreadsheet that Circ put together, I was looking at what % decrease would allow Ice tankers to stand favorably against Invulnerability. Assuming they are strong vs S/L, and we are weak against Fire.
At 33% damage reduction, Ice was "nearly" on par with Invuln. We need that much help to do reasonably for Energy/Negative, and it put us slightly ahead on Toxic and Psi.
Now then, these numbers were created based on spawns of Minions/Lts/Bosses. No AV's.
In my post, I pointed out that level 52 minions lost all of 10 points of damage on a normal attack. Some attacks it may be as high as 12-15. But getting hit 100 times, we'd save what? 3/4'ths of our health bar? 100 times! Most fights, I'd expect to see 20-30 hits, saving us from 200-300 points of damage. Yet we'd be taking (150 dmg * 20 hits = 3000 damage), minus 210 for CE leaving us with 2790 damage taken. And that assumes everything that hits us is in range of CE.
I still fail to see how this helps us with Minions, Lts and Bosses. From my direct numbers above, a level 2 Ice tank will take half a point less of damage. Half a point! What good does that do? This is the only Energy/Negative protection an Ice Tank will have till 18!
Did I hope for more then 10%? Yes. Did I expect much more? Perhaps not. But do we need more? I say yes, absolutely.
And Snorii, how much does that AV do against you on Live? How much less is he doing now?
Don't know if anyone cares about this, but I just logged onto the test server and checked Chilling Embrace in the Blaster line-up of powers. According to the text describing the power, a blaster's version of Chilling Embrace does have the new -damage aspect as well. I am assuming then that Jack Frost's Chilling Embrace does as well.
So, if yall want to up your -damage numbers I recommend teaming with ice blasters and controllers now
time ticking on and by the looks of it no significant or even useful changes on the way I guess its the end of ice tankers as we know it :-(
I think all of the suggestions have been great on here and thanks to everyone who's been fighting so hard to make ice playable in I5 I think it's time we look at the reality of the situation however and realise that the fat lady has finished he warm up and is about to let rip.
As a final note (that will make no difference what-so-ever but I want to get it off my chest)
I'm dead against and significat resistances, Ice is Defense.
Surely an increase of EA to 1.1% would be a balanced level this (6 slotted) would give us 2.42 per mob, giving us a maximum of 33.88 which is better than swallowing a small luck and with 8 mobs around us would give us 19.36. It would make EA an actual defense power worth slotting again (just)
Right thats off my chest now, I'll go back to working out what new AT to roll in my ice tankers spot on Infinity.
[ QUOTE ]
And Snorii, how much does that AV do against you on Live? How much less is he doing now?
[/ QUOTE ]
With Tough five slotted for resistance, he hit me for 1906.64 smashing damage. Sorry, I'll have to check to see what level my enhancements are. Also, keep in mind that the 7% Chilling Embrace damage debuff would be in effect for those last numbers.
Before: 1906.64 damage with 5 slotted Tough
On Test: 1421.1 damage with 7% CE in effect
(I'll go check my slotting for Tough. The character I used on Test has the same slotting that I used before.)
EDIT: Tough has 5 level 40 enhancements in it.
One more post and I'm a Mentor. It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds. 
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
[ QUOTE ]
Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
[/ QUOTE ]
So when are you going to do something constructive.....because I could sit around an office all day and think up a ton of more useless ideas than you ever could.....and then praise myself as the best lead designer ever.... in fact i could even nerf regen more......make quick recovery a click that costs 20 end to use and slowly drains End.....and that would help Ice about as much as any of your suggestions have.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if anyone cares about this, but I just logged onto the test server and checked Chilling Embrace in the Blaster line-up of powers. According to the text describing the power, a blaster's version of Chilling Embrace does have the new -damage aspect as well. I am assuming then that Jack Frost's Chilling Embrace does as well.
So, if yall want to up your -damage numbers I recommend teaming with ice blasters and controllers now
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'know that really irks me - once again what is supposed to be an Ice Tanker change/fix/addition becomes a change that is for more than just Ice Tanks. So again, what might have been a niche change for Ice Tanks, becomes something others can take advantage of.
So what's an Ice Tank's niche again? Oh yeah, that's right its not defense, its not damage mitigation, its to sit in a freakin' ice cube and whistle dixie for hours on end. That's why Hibernate is my Happy Place, its all I've got.
Also, like I said elsewhere, the damage debuff is very likely affected by level (not con) difference, as all debuffs in game are similarly affected already, including other damage debuffs.
[ QUOTE ]
So what's an Ice Tank's niche again? Oh yeah, that's right its not defense, its not damage mitigation, its to sit in a freakin' ice cube and whistle dixie for hours on end. That's why Hibernate is my Happy Place, its all I've got.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blasters can get hibernate in an epic, though.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what's an Ice Tank's niche again? Oh yeah, that's right its not defense, its not damage mitigation, its to sit in a freakin' ice cube and whistle dixie for hours on end. That's why Hibernate is my Happy Place, its all I've got.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blasters can get hibernate in an epic, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Priceless... just priceless.
It seemed like a good cap to Circ's rant. 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
It seemed like a good cap to Circ's rant.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose it might make Circ feel better knowing that the I5 APP version of Hibernate does not have the End boost that the new I5 tanker version does.
Well I can now fight a group of OJ's ok. Had to slot Tough, Weave, Health and use an Ice Patch then drain thier end. Of coarse I have to slowly kill them since all my slots went to the pool powers to help my def. Chimera 2 hit me then danced around and laughed. I'm not sure if my group of 8 can kill him him before I get that second hit.
It sad being a tank and having to invite a real tank so I can finish a mission
All numbers assume that I respec in order to optimize for the current Issue 5 numbers on Test.
These are the numbers for my ice tanker vs. AVs using Smashing, Lethal, Energy, or Negative.
Against a +0 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 5% to 37%
Against a +1 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 5% to 46%
Against a +2 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 6% to 55%
These are the defense numbers for my ice tanker vs. AVs using Fire, Cold, or Toxic. (Assume that the resistance numbers are unenhanced, since I'm not going to waste slots on enhancing them.)
Against a +0 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 38% to 74%
Against a +1 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 47% to 83%
Against a +2 AV, the AV's chance to hit increased from 56% to 92%
Since my ice tanekr is basically defenseless vs. Psychic attacks, his net defense vs. Psychic AVs has improved by 15%.
Several AVs have already demonstrated their ability to kill (or even one-shot) my ice tanker in Issue 4, even when supported by a well-structured team. Chimera, Infernal, Neuron, and Nosferatu were all able to one-shot him without relying on Psychic attacks or big "Nova" type attacks. Envoy of Shadow, Lanaruu, Malaise, Mother Mayhem, Psychic Babbage, and Psychic Clockwork King have also been able to drop him.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if anyone cares about this, but I just logged onto the test server and checked Chilling Embrace in the Blaster line-up of powers. According to the text describing the power, a blaster's version of Chilling Embrace does have the new -damage aspect as well. I am assuming then that Jack Frost's Chilling Embrace does as well.
So, if yall want to up your -damage numbers I recommend teaming with ice blasters and controllers now
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'know that really irks me - once again what is supposed to be an Ice Tanker change/fix/addition becomes a change that is for more than just Ice Tanks. So again, what might have been a niche change for Ice Tanks, becomes something others can take advantage of.
So what's an Ice Tank's niche again? Oh yeah, that's right its not defense, its not damage mitigation, its to sit in a freakin' ice cube and whistle dixie for hours on end. That's why Hibernate is my Happy Place, its all I've got.
Also, like I said elsewhere, the damage debuff is very likely affected by level (not con) difference, as all debuffs in game are similarly affected already, including other damage debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Circeus,
Well for what it's worth, Jack Frost's version of Chilling Embrace doesn't have the new damage debuff. A few of us ice controllers have tested it out to make sure.
[ QUOTE ]
Well for what it's worth, Jack Frost's version of Chilling Embrace doesn't have the new damage debuff. A few of us ice controllers have tested it out to make sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well a saving grace I suppose.
Its also nice to know the Blaster/Controller EPP version of Hibernate lacks the changes.
The thing I don't get is the Blaster version of CE getting the damage debuff then. After all I know that in most cases, powers with the same name in two different sets are equal. I remember learning this with Burn having had a Blaster with Burn.
I would like to use my 1 post to say...nothing..thats all...I just can't fathom a game changing this much after release....you should have just released CoH2 and said that CoH was dead.
Michael, that implies Wet Ice is around 17%. I'm finding that hard to swallow considering how truly imbalanced that would make the "have/have-not" situation with DEF enhancements.
Are you sure of that?