Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
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Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
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Say hello to your Issue 5 Ice Tank! 
- JJ
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Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
[/ QUOTE ]
Say hello to your Issue 5 Ice Tank!
- JJ
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Well, I can't say that it isn't a challenge at least, if that's what this issue was meant to bring 
All I want is to be able to tank a even level boss for a while, when I can't do that I feel pretty bad :P
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Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
[/ QUOTE ]
Say hello to your Issue 5 Ice Tank!
- JJ
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Well, I can't say that it isn't a challenge at least, if that's what this issue was meant to bring
All I want is to be able to tank a even level boss for a while, when I can't do that I feel pretty bad :P
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Wow, thats a powerful statement. What was the boss and what is your build? You should still be able to easily tank an even level boss on test. i do it daily and have yet to die once, or even come close.
An AV on the other hand can be pretty terrible. If you don't have the "right" team then I still maintain my recommendation of bringing 9-15 lucks with you and using three at a time. works pretty good.
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Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
[/ QUOTE ]
Say hello to your Issue 5 Ice Tank!
- JJ
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Well, I can't say that it isn't a challenge at least, if that's what this issue was meant to bring
All I want is to be able to tank a even level boss for a while, when I can't do that I feel pretty bad :P
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Wow, thats a powerful statement. What was the boss and what is your build? You should still be able to easily tank an even level boss on test. i do it daily and have yet to die once, or even come close.
An AV on the other hand can be pretty terrible. If you don't have the "right" team then I still maintain my recommendation of bringing 9-15 lucks with you and using three at a time. works pretty good.
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I admit, I did overexaggerate that a bit, since my enhancements are outdated.
I play with 5def 1endredux in Glacial and Frozen Armour, 5 recharges and one heal in Hoarfrost 2 endredux in Icicles and Chilling Embrace (Hmm, are those even needed?) and tried a group of even level Council, consisting of 1 of them MA bosses, 1lt and 3 minions. No damage enhancements in the attacks (Gash and Swoop), just one accuracy in each. I took out the minions pretty fast, but then my health was down to half, and just continued to tick down, since the boss hit me with every attack, and I had to flee. I'll go over there and test it again when I've updated my enhancements again though, and see how it goes.
Having never experienced well slotted EA, since the changes made me slot the last slots in my Glacial armour instead, I have to say that I like the end that I get from it, even though it should be down instead of Permafrost or something then instead, like Consume is for the Fire/ tankers.
Oh, this was all at level 27.
Edit: Mistake there, GA was only 5 slotted.
Edit2!: Also sixslotted Health.
\\Amateur Icer
Just FYI, I posted about the new ice tanker change to Hibernate in the tanker forum. Change took place on 8/24/05.
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Well, after some quick testing, I found out that I have no staying power at all. Isn't that what the tank is there for?
[/ QUOTE ]
Say hello to your Issue 5 Ice Tank!
- JJ
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Well, I can't say that it isn't a challenge at least, if that's what this issue was meant to bring
All I want is to be able to tank a even level boss for a while, when I can't do that I feel pretty bad :P
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I was able to tank an even-level dark vampyr boss long enough to defeat it, provided I had at least one minion nearby for EA to get endurance. Yes, that was effectively two boss fights in a row, but it was do-able.
Now, throw in a full spawn for a team with that boss, and all bets are kinda off.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Just FYI, I posted about the new ice tanker change to Hibernate in the tanker forum. Change took place on 8/24/05.
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Yeah I saw...
Its about a 1.5s Activation.
Duration is 30s, but it starts ticking from whent he power is clicked, not from when activation is complete - meanding actual duration is about 28.5s
And its new recharge time is 120s.
Overall its a "thank you for this lovely Tier 7 power in a Tier 9 position".
I now more than ever feel this is a power that should not be immobilizing us.
Edit: oh, and welcome to imbalance; PBs and WSs get bys for their Phase Shifting powers
Even though Hibernate is still not everything we want it to be I am much happier with the activation time now. It is a much more viable option when we go red than it was before. It is at a point now where I feel comfortable relying on it when I need it, whereas before I didn't expect to live through the overly long activation time. The change to an endurance boost is also a positive one.
That said, we still need more defense. My solo testing in Brickstown against even level mobs has me capping out at around 7 - 8 opponents before I consider it a loosing battle with inevitable death awaiting me at the end. This is not close to what we are going to need when tanking on a team as mob size will be closer to 12 - 16 per spawn depending on team size. Drawing agro against 16 even level foes WILL require outside healing OR buffs in order to stay upright.
We need to be able to floor even level minions constantly. Either slightly increase the defense buff in EA or remove it all together ( don't like this option ) and move FA and GA to 20% base respectively.
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Edit: oh, and welcome to imbalance; PBs and WSs get bys for their Phase Shifting powers
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Yeah, because it's imbalancing to be stuck in the SAME SPOT for more than 30 seconds while phased, but it's okay to fly around at capped speed while phased indefinitely. Riiiiiiiiiight.
Once again, I think Jack needs to buy a new dictionary, the one where the word 'balance' doesn't have all those typos. Much less 'global'. I like how we're being expected to swallow these changes when they don't even apply to every power set.
Like fortitude not being reduced in effectiveness because it's in their precious empathy set (yay, one power that can now out-do the entire force field set for +def), or kheldian phases not being nerfed because they're the developer's bizarre brain child.
And why is it that my scrapper can slot parry to get more melee defense than my ice tanker now? You know that it will stack twice without hasten or recharges. That means I can cram six defense SOs into it to get +88% melee defense, to everything when my ice tanker can only get, with 14 guys around her, 50-something %, to four types of damage. That seems 'balanced'.
If we're going to have these special powers and sets that are going to be immune to 'global' 'balance' changes, I wish we could get these notated in the character creation screen. That way I wouldn't waste a couple hundred hours with what sounds like an off the wall or creative set only to have it hammered in that I should've just gone with something bland and boring and avoid having to rebuild my character every issue.
So much for those 'informed decisions'.
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Once again, I think Jack needs to buy a new dictionary, the one where the word 'balance' doesn't have all those typos. Much less 'global'. I like how we're being expected to swallow these changes when they don't even apply to every power set.
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Well... I tend to agree. Balance is as much about consistency in design as it is anything else. Its very clear that the powersets now lack consistency, let alone balance.
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Once again, I think Jack needs to buy a new dictionary, the one where the word 'balance' doesn't have all those typos. Much less 'global'. I like how we're being expected to swallow these changes when they don't even apply to every power set.
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Well... I tend to agree. Balance is as much about consistency in design as it is anything else. Its very clear that the powersets now lack consistency, let alone balance.
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There have been inconsistencies in the powersets since launch, and some have taken a long time to redress. Others never have been, and even others have been exacerbated in issue 5. I'm not saying they should exist, I'm saying this isn't new. What bothers me is that the devs are willing to keep things imbalanced.
And to be honest, I really hope that the Kheldian phase shifts don't get changed to match Phase Shift and Hibernate, 'cause it'll hurt them a lot. Nerf them, and they'll die a lot more on large teams.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Problem is, my ice tanker was broken NOW. The end cost to run her powers was ridiculous. Not only have they not indicated they were going to beef ice tankers UP, they have nerfed them down.
There is nothing to lead me to believe that ice is/was/will be getting the LOVE that they need.
I needed the slot, it was the least likely character to be played with any consistency. 'Nuff said.
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I am sorry to say - I used your i5 respec on my 28 ice tank today - no sense wasting a valuable character slot.. 
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You should be.
My respec is tongue-in-cheek, although bitterly so. Also, it's something I wouldn't do unless ice tankers go live in their current state and the devs let them sit that way for a month or so without going, "you know, maybe those forum posters had a clue when they said it SUCKED."
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While I do hate to be the one pouring salt in the wound...
The only REAL difference that matters for an Ice Tank between I5 and pre-I5 is then they will be the butt of many, many jokes whereas now they are only the butt of many jokes. Since beta the Ice primary has been a set you chose just to try and prove it could be made to work.
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While I do hate to be the one pouring salt in the wound...
The only REAL difference that matters for an Ice Tank between I5 and pre-I5 is then they will be the butt of many, many jokes whereas now they are only the butt of many jokes. Since beta the Ice primary has been a set you chose just to try and prove it could be made to work.
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The only sad thing is the fact that Ice Tankers were actually able to do their job in I4. Certainly not to the extent that Invuln and Stone were doing it, but definitely enough to actually tank for a decent sized team. But most of that tanking ability was based mainly around EA, and it's ability to stack. It would allow Ice Tankers to actually BE the kings (and queens) of defense...and it seems no one but the players realize that even flooring to-hit reliably still didn't allow us to perform on par with the resistance based tankers. But hey, defense is sooo much better than resistance, right States?
Now not only has EA been tweaked (understatement of the year) down, but so have ALL our other defensive powers. It's like Muhammad Ali decided that Ice Armour tankers needed the ol' one-two. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.
So in I4 (and before) we were the red-headed stepchildren of the Tanker community. We could do our jobs for the most part, but generally speaking not as reliably as the other primaries. We were golden against sappers, and other things that needed defense, rather than resistance, to nullify the inherent danger.
Now? After 32 heart-breaking, hospital-ridden levels we can be glorified ice sculptures...for 30 seconds anyways.
Go Team Ice Tanker!
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We were golden against sappers, and other things that needed defense, rather than resistance, to nullify the inherent danger.
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I can't think of anything else personally. Naturally, our Energy Absorption gave us really good defense to energy attacks, plus we have glacial armor available to help with the alpha attacks.
(Sidenote... that keeps going)
I always hear about how we are better against sappers and that's great. It is always nice to have something... anything that you match up well with and can do better than other classes. (Cold being our other rare niche) After all, why choose a class if they aren't better in something than other classes. Sappers still do hit us and expect to see them hit you a lot more with I5. I wasn't paying attention to my endurance bar and had a sapper hit me, the other two malta chained stunned/held me and killed me just last night on live. I just wanted to point out that we aren't invincible against sappers. We do match up well against them on live.
Back at (pre-)launch, I didn't create an Ice Tank because I knew one day they would create sappers and I would be the guy to take them down. I didn't struggle through all of these levels and hours of play to herd up them and show off to my friends. I wanted to make a tank and I liked the idea of using ice for my powers. Honestly, it has been a lot of fun playing my tank, but we certainly aren't up to the level of other tanks. We have been saying this month after month after month after month. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. There have been a few tweaks here and there that have certainly helped us (stacking armor, sleep resistance, now AV's shouldn't one-shot us) The thing is that we are still lagging behind.
If you want to say that our special place in the world is Cold damage resistance, why aren't there more cold attacks in the game? Let's take the Crey for instance. Some of them use cold weapons which is great. What happens when you face off against the Head of the Crey? You find out that she uses Psychic powers. Certainly makes sense story-wise, but where is our cold-using AV/Monster? Yep, we had the Winter Lord for a short time and I loved it. I went around and felt like a true tank for as long as the event lasted. He thawed out and most people think negatively of the Winter Lord in regards to Power-Leveling, etc. We have yet to see the Winter King that sent them to Paragon City. Whether it is the Winter King or something else, I would love to have an AV/Monster that used cold attacks. Imagine actually getting invites to be on teams because you are an ice tank. 
OK, so there aren't that many cold villains to fight in CoH. Let's say that our special ability is slow resistance. I'm not sure if I need to continue, but I don't see this as such a great thing. I don't think Wet Ice's slow resistance has ever been fixed, but being able to move around a little faster over caltrops or mudpots really doesn't seem like much to me. This also relates to the villain AI. It isn't a big deal to be slowed. Enemies still race over and stand beside you for the most part. You usually are still able to use melee attacks because they are right there. If the AI was smart enough to throw caltrops (or whatever) down and then stay out of melee range, then slow resistance would be a much bigger commodity. This would make the game a lot less fun for other tanks/scrappers though.
Honestly, now that I've reached the upper level of the game, I know why I used to see all of those signatures in these forums that said their ice tank was retired until fixed. I guess you don't see those anymore because most of those people gave up on their ice tank.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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(Cold being our other rare niche)
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Even then, that's not really true. When you look at it, a Stone Tanker running just Granite Armor does slightly better than Ice vs Cold (taking about 95% of Ice's damage), and when you throw in Rooted on top of Granite its tremendously better (only 50% of Ice's damage). So we're not the kings/queens of taking Cold damage either (and Fire is not the king of Taking Fire Damage, that also goes to Stone).
But that's only in terms of damage not in secondary effects. Because generally, Cold attacks slow. And its being able to eat Cold damage plus Slow Resistance that, if we ever get a Winter Wonderland added, will really shine vs Cold based villains. However, like you said, for the half dozen Cold based villains there are the ability for that combo to shine is few and far between.
If people want to have less issues with Sappers and Carnies now, and their End Drains, they'll call on Dark Armor Scrappers and Stone Tanks - those who have End Drain Resistance. All that said, the drain from a Sapper is likely too large - it always has been. I consider them one of those creations that a developer throws into the game when they feel they've got no other way to beat someone.
Personally I just want to play a Tanker that feels like a Tanker. And that should not be a fight for survival every time you get in the ring with something. Sure, there should be a chance you can die, but you should, as a Tanker, always have a reasonable chance for survival. And now for Ice Tankers that is simply not the case as your chances for dying far outweigh your chances for living.
But we can...
Stop fighting to heal
Sort of ignore slows
Draw Endurance
Slow things
put a minor dent in damage (Damage Debuff)
At the cost of...
3 Weaknesses (Toxic, Psi, and Fire)
Not comparatively strong vs the most common damage types (Smash/Lethal)
Not even on top vs Cold
Actually slightly better vs Energy/Negative than Invuln - until they pop Unstoppable
The most End intensive damage aura in game
requiring at least a half dozen mobs to come close to being able to floor minions on our own
unreliable, inconsistent defenses (EA requires mobs, CE's debuff is resisted)
Just a thought....
It seem sthat the I5 results are showing that solo we are at most adequate but in teams we are useless. Would it be possible for the devs to give Ice tankers some kind of boost based on the number of players on a team, for instance a 3%-5% for each team mate in a leadership sized player based area.
21%-35% extra defense in an 8 man team wouldn't seem like too much of a bosst considering the various luck enhancements. This wouldn't encourge herding as you'd be dragging the whole team around with you.
Not sure whether the game mechanics would allow such a thing and I'm pretty certain that the devs don't even see a need for it but I thought I'd make the suggestion anyway :-) I wont hold out any hope though, instead I'll make sure I have contacts in every zone so I can keep stocked up on purples!!
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Just a thought....
It seem sthat the I5 results are showing that solo we are at most adequate but in teams we are useless. Would it be possible for the devs to give Ice tankers some kind of boost based on the number of players on a team, for instance a 3%-5% for each team mate in a leadership sized player based area.
21%-35% extra defense in an 8 man team wouldn't seem like too much of a bosst considering the various luck enhancements. This wouldn't encourge herding as you'd be dragging the whole team around with you.
Not sure whether the game mechanics would allow such a thing and I'm pretty certain that the devs don't even see a need for it but I thought I'd make the suggestion anyway :-) I wont hold out any hope though, instead I'll make sure I have contacts in every zone so I can keep stocked up on purples!!
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Actually in the testing I have done, solo is where the problem is, teaming has given much better results so far. I've posted these results in the tanker forum.
Ice Tanks won't be fixed for Teams because they aren't broken if a FF or Empathy Defender happen to be around.
Similarly to SR Scrappers, the Ice Tank Armors count as a "pre-buff" to help out when they are buffed by Defenders and Controllers.
I mean, the 40% or so +DEFENSE that Ice can eke out stacks wonderfully with Fortitude (base 30%) and Dispersion/Insulation Shield (base 25%).
The new flavor of "balance" seems to be "get a Team, n00b". If this is actually the case, any time one powerset in another AT allows you to succeed, you're not "broken".
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
It comes back to the idea that Ice has lost any sense of self...
What can an Ice Tank do? What is our benefit?
It was my absolute hope that Damage Debuff would be it. I was really hoping we'd be able to debuff mobs damage on the order of a Rad Defender/Controller. Is that really so much to ask? Rad guides are listing Enervating field at 33% damage debuff. If controllers are less effective, it can't be less then 25%. And ours is 7%! Three Ice Tanks in a room together are less effective at debuffing then a single Controller with Enervating field??
But no... We're 7%. I highly doubt Ice Tanks will be in demand for this ability. And we have no other ability but to take lots of damage quickly. EA was once our god-send, and the only power on an unpopular set that others wished they could have. It made us "close" to other tanks, but left us with a few additional vulnerabilities. And we were Masters of Defense.
Now, Stone and Invuln have better Defense then we do... but they have Resistance too.
I'd never imagined a world with fewer Ice Tanks, but I5 is likely to make that true.
Bogus...
What ever happened to the developer realization that "rooted isn't fun"?
I still vote they scrap Permafrost and move Hibernate down a tier with the new changes. Who's with me? (I think this was Circeus' idea a while back before the I5 changes to the two powers.) Slow resistance in Permafrost still doesn't warrant taking the power.
Circeus, sorry about suggesting that we are the best against cold damage. I'm not sure where I got the idea that a person surrounded by ice would handle the cold better than most. *slaps forehead* 
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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Circeus, sorry about suggesting that we are the best against cold damage. I'm not sure where I got the idea that a person surrounded by ice would handle the cold better than most. *slaps forehead*
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Well... its not you who should be sorry. Its the devs who should be going "Wuh? Ice isn't best vs Cold? Fire isn't best vs Fire? [censored] were we thinking?" Unfortunately, I don't really see that happening any time soon.
Gee, I wonder how things would be if the next Zone added was a winter wonderland... Winter Lords and icy foes. At least we could hide in the snow, and be unseen by the monsters. Wouldn't want to draw aggro, now would we? We'd still have to call up a Stone Tank to help us... 
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we do have resistance to slow but unless u slot it it only helps a tiny bit, Thats what hasten is for anyway, so i don't slot it.
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Ummm... you can't enhance Resistance to Slow. Though I do agree that Hasten offsets slows, just not as much as the Resistance to Slows does.