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I think the main problem is we are looking at numbers of our defense shields, while the devs are looking at those and the ability to use ice patch and drain end as defenses too.
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I hope the devs aren't looking at the ability to use ice patch as a defense, as it's not in the Ice Armor primary and never has been, and why do people keep talking like Ice Armor and Ice Melee are the same powerset?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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I think the main problem is we are looking at numbers of our defense shields, while the devs are looking at those and the ability to use ice patch and drain end as defenses too.
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I hope the devs aren't looking at the ability to use ice patch as a defense, as it's not in the Ice Armor primary and never has been, and why do people keep talking like Ice Armor and Ice Melee are the same powerset?
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Although I hope they aren't balancing around this, I do hope they take a cue and realize that alot of Ice Armour tankers take Ice Melee for Ice Patch. Ice Patch is one of those skills that just makes the Ice Armour tanker that much more effective.
Pretty much everyone I ever talk to just assumes that if yer an Ice Tanker you take Ice Melee, because Ice Patch makes you into a "real" tanker. Sad to say that there is some degree of truth in that statement.
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kk, Here's another thought.
When I use 'Hoarfrost', I think of it as an Ablative Ice Armor that breaks off in chunks as it absorbs damage. When the extra hit points are gone, weather due to damage or time, the armor is all gone.
But Ice is hard. If you don't hit it just right, it doesn't crack. So what I see is missing is some extra Defence to reflect this hardness. Maybe +7.5% that lasts only as long as the 'extra hit points' do. That would give the Ice Tank a non toggle defence, albeit a low one.
Conceptually it makes sense. And even if you were to raise the end cost a bit, it would still help the Tanker Tank... 
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The Ablative idea is interesting. I've actually been typing up a proposal for a separate ablative armor set, but the more I think about it Ice Armor should be an Ablative type of set. I don't know I'll have to think on it some more.
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
And we've tweaked Hibernate so that your toggles won't drop anymore!
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Can we turn our toggles on and off while Hibernating? That's the biggest issue with this power IMO.
Circeus,
I'd personally like to thank you for all the effort you've put into getting Ice looked at... and for opening some unprecedented dialog with Statesman.
The only changes in I5 that "really" bother me are the Ice Armor ones. I seriously believe your interaction with the developers has played at least a small part in getting our beloved set some attention.
Hopefully they'll come around on this whole EA debacle, but we shall survive (I hope)!
So, cheers to Circeus! Our Ice Tank Godfather!
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Gang,
Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...
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I was thrilled when I read about the fire resistance being increased in Permafrost, as well as the addition of Toxic resistance. Permafrost finally was worthy of spending 5 slots on, to boost our resistance to two forms of attack we have no real defense against. The toxic resistance also would help low level tanks fighting Vahzilok. Not to mention high level tanks fighting Kracken in the Abandoned Sewer.
The removal of Toxic from Permafrost hurts. The removal of nearly all Fire Defense from Ice Tanks forces us to 6 slot Permafrost and now this nice, worth-while addition is gone. 
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kk, Here's another thought.
When I use 'Hoarfrost', I think of it as an Ablative Ice Armor that breaks off in chunks as it absorbs damage. When the extra hit points are gone, weather due to damage or time, the armor is all gone.
But Ice is hard. If you don't hit it just right, it doesn't crack. So what I see is missing is some extra Defence to reflect this hardness. Maybe +7.5% that lasts only as long as the 'extra hit points' do. That would give the Ice Tank a non toggle defence, albeit a low one.
Conceptually it makes sense. And even if you were to raise the end cost a bit, it would still help the Tanker Tank...
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The Ablative idea is interesting. I've actually been typing up a proposal for a separate ablative armor set, but the more I think about it Ice Armor should be an Ablative type of set. I don't know I'll have to think on it some more.
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Just apply the concept above to ALL the armours in the set. Make them all reasonably priced/timed/rechargy clicks that provide a certain level of resistance/defense AND an initial HP boost above base when you activate them. I'd say let them keep the defense that the power provides, i.e, each power has a base defense, say a non-ablative portion that will only run out at the end of the power's duration. So for example, you activate Click X, it provides 15% defense and +20% base HPs for 3 minutes. You have 15% defense for 3 minutes, and the +20% HPs for as long as they last (any left over after 3 minutes are subtracted). Having purely ablative armour I think would be much more difficult to code in under the current system, but having just an ablative portion certainly doesn't seem terribly difficult to imp.
It's entirely feasible and certainly keeping in tune with the idea of ice. Of course, no one really likes clicks so much...or at least an over-abundance of them. Heh.
Slow RES instead of Toxic? Wow, that's appealing. For a few days, I was actually considering Permafrost. Oh well.
Anybody know if CE's new Damage Debuff stacks with other Ice Tanks'? Tempted to just team up with a bunch of Ice tanks and put slots into attacks. TP into mob and stack CE. Who needs slotted armors, when the return isn't favorable.
....Yarrr
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kk, Here's another thought.
When I use 'Hoarfrost', I think of it as an Ablative Ice Armor that breaks off in chunks as it absorbs damage. When the extra hit points are gone, weather due to damage or time, the armor is all gone.
But Ice is hard. If you don't hit it just right, it doesn't crack. So what I see is missing is some extra Defence to reflect this hardness. Maybe +7.5% that lasts only as long as the 'extra hit points' do. That would give the Ice Tank a non toggle defence, albeit a low one.
Conceptually it makes sense. And even if you were to raise the end cost a bit, it would still help the Tanker Tank...
[/ QUOTE ]
The Ablative idea is interesting. I've actually been typing up a proposal for a separate ablative armor set, but the more I think about it Ice Armor should be an Ablative type of set. I don't know I'll have to think on it some more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just apply the concept above to ALL the armours in the set. Make them all reasonably priced/timed/rechargy clicks that provide a certain level of resistance/defense AND an initial HP boost above base when you activate them. I'd say let them keep the defense that the power provides, i.e, each power has a base defense, say a non-ablative portion that will only run out at the end of the power's duration. So for example, you activate Click X, it provides 15% defense and +20% base HPs for 3 minutes. You have 15% defense for 3 minutes, and the +20% HPs for as long as they last (any left over after 3 minutes are subtracted). Having purely ablative armour I think would be much more difficult to code in under the current system, but having just an ablative portion certainly doesn't seem terribly difficult to imp.
It's entirely feasible and certainly keeping in tune with the idea of ice. Of course, no one really likes clicks so much...or at least an over-abundance of them. Heh.
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Well, instead of clicks, I was thinking something on the order of pulsing toggles that refresh on the next pulse (say 1-2 seconds) at depletion of the ablative pool. The damage overflow would go to the regular HP as actual damage taken. I think that provides a nice caveat.
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Although I hope they aren't balancing around this, I do hope they take a cue and realize that alot of Ice Armour tankers take Ice Melee for Ice Patch. Ice Patch is one of those skills that just makes the Ice Armour tanker that much more effective.
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Ice Patch provides far more benefit to Fiery Aura than Ice Armor.
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Pretty much everyone I ever talk to just assumes that if yer an Ice Tanker you take Ice Melee, because Ice Patch makes you into a "real" tanker. Sad to say that there is some degree of truth in that statement.
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Pretty much everyone you talk to is pretty silly, then. Tankers have six other secondaries that aren't Ice, and they should all be viable with Ice Armor.
I play an Ice/Stone, and I've teamed with Ice/Energy, Ice/Fire, and Ice/Axe. I've never even seen an Ice/Ice tanker in the game, although I've certainly heard they exist. I've only seen Fire/Ice when it comes to Ice Melee.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Ice/Mace reporting for duty and hoping they realize that people like me are very afraid right now for the future of ICE
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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I've never even seen an Ice/Ice tanker in the game, although I've certainly heard they exist. I've only seen Fire/Ice when it comes to Ice Melee.
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There are a few on Infinity (I've seen 2 at lvl 50), but by and large you're right. I'd approximate about 90% of the Iceys I've come across are anything BUT Ice Melee.
Circeus, Thanks for all the work on ice tanker behalf. Some points that you might not have brought up with states.
1The 32 slots for invul please point out that half of those slots are in passive powers were only six of ice slots are in passive. I truly believe that your build for the spreadsheet is unrealistic on the ice. Even with changes to EA I still had to slot my armors for endurance reduction, were the only builds I have seen an invul do that are invuls with hasten. 3 slots arent that much of a difference any way.
2 know I keep saying this but every other tank set has another form of damage mitigation sitting in their inspiration tray where that cannot be said about ice. I have tested my current live build on test with out running my armors and using just luck inspirations and saw no change other than I had more endurance. The suggested 10% damage debuff from CE isnt enough of another form of mitigation to keep us in line with the other sets. A debuff isnt resistance, debuffs scale horribly, only effect mobs in range and only effect 10 mobs.
3.Adding slow resistance to permafrost isnt going to make people select that power. Most ice tanks that I have met are not casual gamers, while many arent min/maxers either; they do research the powers and builds. In issue 4 ice tanks are the king of aggro with the defense to survive, in issue 5 we are still the kings of aggro but we need a team to survive. If we are in a team of more than 3 and no defenders we can not survive aggro with out a tray of greens.
4.These changes really hurt the lower level ice tanks. I fear most will give up before getting EA or even Glacier to roll an invul or fire tank. Without the defense of wetice or any form of needed resistance from permafrost its going to be every frustrating and difficult. Other than a concept I really cant see anyone rolling an ice tank. If he doesnt want new ice tanks just get rid of the set.
Ill stop there. I have a ton of other points, and couple of ideals I might post later.
I have an Ice/Ice and for 90% of the game, Ice Patch is one of, if not THE, most powerful tool you have to stay alive. I wouldnt be suprised if that one power were a large factor in the decisions that have been made over the last year and a half.
Do I think all primaries are "balanced" with their corresponding secondaries in mind? No... but consider this:
It is quite obvious that some powersets are made around their secondaries. Take Fire/Fire for example. The fire/ version of build-up affects the tankers fire attacks... but not burn. This makes the real use of the power to buff the secondary, not the primary.
And consider an Elec/elec blaster. The endurance drain of elec/ is clearly "balanced", imo, under the assumption that both Elec primary and secondary are taken together. Short Circuit and Thunderous Blast are highly complimented by Power Sink, making the combination far more powerful (for end drain, elec's defacto purpose) than any other combination.
Obviously, people pick whatever primary and secondary they like. But I think Fire/Fire, Elec/Elec and Ice/Ice all make compelling cases for the arguement that the devs do strongly consider secondaries when "balancing" primaries.
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As far as Permafrost goes...
I have seen a lot of people say that it is going to continue to be useless and that they are not going to take it. To this I say, yes, it is a pathetic power but with I5 you pretty much have to take it. In I5, Ice tanks now have no defense to fire damage outside of EA. And I don't think I have to tell you how little defense EA is going to give in real gameplay.
Think of it this way. If you went out to dinner and paid money for a meal and the waitor brought you a steak that was only 1/8 of an ounce (Permafrost), you'd be pissed. But if you are in the wilderness, starving and cold and someone offers you a single bite of steak, you take it greatfully.... We're in the wilderness, people. Guess we gotta take whats given to us, or starve.
Taking the defense out of Wet Ice has not freed up 5 slots for us to reassign, it has actually cost us an additional 5 slots because we have to take Permafrost and because it is so pathetic we have to slot Health too.
perma Hoarfrost and Health are going to be part of my ice tank in I5
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Although I hope they aren't balancing around this, I do hope they take a cue and realize that alot of Ice Armour tankers take Ice Melee for Ice Patch. Ice Patch is one of those skills that just makes the Ice Armour tanker that much more effective.
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Ice Patch provides far more benefit to Fiery Aura than Ice Armor.
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That's debatable, IMHO. It provides a huge benefit to ANY tanker who takes it. Fire gets a huge benefit in terms of Burn to offset the piddly damage that Ice Melee gets for its attacks. However, I feel that Ice Patch actually provides Ice Armour tankers with a tool that let's them actually tank on par with some of the other sets. The difference I saw before and after Ice Patch with my tanker was like night and day. Your mileage may vary.
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Pretty much everyone I ever talk to just assumes that if yer an Ice Tanker you take Ice Melee, because Ice Patch makes you into a "real" tanker. Sad to say that there is some degree of truth in that statement.
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Pretty much everyone you talk to is pretty silly, then. Tankers have six other secondaries that aren't Ice, and they should all be viable with Ice Armor.
I play an Ice/Stone, and I've teamed with Ice/Energy, Ice/Fire, and Ice/Axe. I've never even seen an Ice/Ice tanker in the game, although I've certainly heard they exist. I've only seen Fire/Ice when it comes to Ice Melee.
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I wasn't saying that an Ice Tanker without Ice Melee was NOT viable. I was merely stating my experiences with Ice Patch. The fact that it makes a hugely noticeable difference in my tanking ability leads me to believe it has a great synergistic effect with Ice Armour. Which it does to the point that I actually think it should be included in the Ice Armour set itself.
I'm surprised you haven't seen Ice/Ice Tankers, they seem to be the ones I run into most. Different experiences I guess.
After I picked up Ice Patch, my life as a tanker became easier. I now had a tool that I could actually count on to keep a large portion of the mob group from attacking me OR my teammates. Could I do my job before Ice Patch? Yes. Could I do it much better after Ice Patch? Yes.
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Taking the defense out of Wet Ice has not freed up 5 slots for us to reassign, it has actually cost us an additional 5 slots because we have to take Permafrost and because it is so pathetic we have to slot Health too.
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And Tough slotted out too.
And I'm sorry, Ice Patch is useful, yes. But overall, from the perspective of an Ice Armor Tanker, its as useful as Fault from Stone Melee, and Hand Clap from Super Strength. So I think to claim that a primary is balanced around a secondary is not at all correct. Ice Patch is, in fact, as useful to any primary.
Except handclap and fault need to hit the opponent to have an affect. Then the need to recharge so you can hit it again. Ice patch you lay down and if they are on it they fall and start simulating popcorn. The point is theres something that is causing them from keeping Ice from being the top Def set, which its suppose to be.
Whats EA with full slotted End Drain like?
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Helms: What do you think of the Permafrost change?
ColdFusion: Its good, now we have a 3rd res slow so when we fight the knives we can runaway faster cause we are going to get our beep kicked
Been there sense the first EA change.
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Taking the defense out of Wet Ice has not freed up 5 slots for us to reassign, it has actually cost us an additional 5 slots because we have to take Permafrost and because it is so pathetic we have to slot Health too.
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And Tough slotted out too.
And I'm sorry, Ice Patch is useful, yes. But overall, from the perspective of an Ice Armor Tanker, its as useful as Fault from Stone Melee, and Hand Clap from Super Strength. So I think to claim that a primary is balanced around a secondary is not at all correct. Ice Patch is, in fact, as useful to any primary.
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Let me restate what I said. I didn't say that I thought the Devs did balance the primaries with the secondaries in mind, I said that a compelling case could be made that, in certain cases, they did.
Further thoughts on the combination of Ice/Ice:
Not only does Ice Patch offer the already mentioned benefits and doesn't need a to-hit role *cough* and can be powered out three at a time (with recharge slotts)... But /Ice also has other mitigation/controll in Freezing Touch (hold) and the craptacular power Frozen Aura (AoE sleep). And don't underestimate the slow effect of the melee attacks. Frost's slow lasst somewhere around 10 seconds and Freezing Touch lasts as long as the hold does. If I remeber correctly, the other attacks' chill lasts almost exactly as long as it takes the power to recharge (without Hasten) providing a slight overlap. So, all told, you can stack 5 /ice slows on a target at once. Let's guess and say that the /ice slow effects is a 5% -recharge (this is a total guess...I have not done any testing to produce this number).... thats an additional 25% -recharge.... added to Ice Patch, the hold and the sleep aura.
Again, I don't think that secondaries play a big part in the I5 balancing, but I do think that they are out there somewhere in the back of the Dev's minds as they do things--or at least when they originally created the sets
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To anyone who cares to hear my I5 experiences:
I like to test my Ice tank against Infernal's throne room because it has a lot of fire, our weakness, and because I've done it enough in I3, I4 and on test to keep a mental comparison going. I have always had great fun making builds that can solo this room set for a full team (the room, not the AV) In fact, some of my favorite Ice moments have been watching the Invulnerability tanks drop while I stay standing in this room--its sick of me to enjoy this, i know. It is in considering my ability to do this room that I understand the need for some kind of nerf to be taking place--an ice tank should not be able to take that room...I am just shocked, like everyone else, at how massive the nerfs were. In I5 this room is definately harder than in pevious issues but there are a few things that I have found to be of great value.
--Slot Health. The difference in your regeneration rate is significant. If you dont take Permafrost (or even if you do) this will be your only serious power against fire attacks.
--Yes, take Tough. There has been much debate for a long time in the ice community about Tough. Regardless of where you fall, this power works and saves you pain.
--Consider taking Frozen Arua (notice I say "consider"). At least for Infernal's throne room, this power slotted out is very useful. It negates the spawns and lets you focus on the portal. Unfortunately, I can't find very many other times when this power comes in handy
--Consider slotting out Ice Patch with recharges. Its a heavy cost (the slotts) but having multiple patches around can be a life saver.
--Consider slotting out Hibernate with recharges. I hate the cowardly nature of this power and have, several times, let myself die with the team rather that use this and abandon everyone like that. But, in I5, I find this power to be more necessary, sadly. I think I remember the recharge to be around 16 seconds fully slotted (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and unfortunatley, Ive had to use it back to back in I5 already.
If you'll notice, the above suggestions are following a pattern; they focus on Power Pool and Secondary powers. What a sad state when its my secondaries that make the big difference.
In fact, I have already decided that when I5 goes live I will be making an Ice/Fire tank--a toon with no controll powers in the secondary--and seeing how things play out.
If they've even remotely considered implementing such massive decreases in Defense and Resistance because of one power in one powerset that most tanks don't even have, then we'll all have solid proof that they are officially on dope.
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That's debatable, IMHO. It provides a huge benefit to ANY tanker who takes it. Fire gets a huge benefit in terms of Burn to offset the piddly damage that Ice Melee gets for its attacks. However, I feel that Ice Patch actually provides Ice Armour tankers with a tool that let's them actually tank on par with some of the other sets. The difference I saw before and after Ice Patch with my tanker was like night and day. Your mileage may vary.
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Not debateable in the least. Ice Patch increases an Ice Armor tanker's survivability. Ice Patch increases a Fiery Aura tanker's XP/hour.
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I wasn't saying that an Ice Tanker without Ice Melee was NOT viable. I was merely stating my experiences with Ice Patch. The fact that it makes a hugely noticeable difference in my tanking ability leads me to believe it has a great synergistic effect with Ice Armour. Which it does to the point that I actually think it should be included in the Ice Armour set itself.
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Considering recent changes, it seems that ice patch is more likely to be nerfed. I'd rather see Ice Armor focused on having effective +defense, rather than try to use what will become subpar control.
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I'm surprised you haven't seen Ice/Ice Tankers, they seem to be the ones I run into most. Different experiences I guess.
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Ice Melee is very unpopular for being a one-trick pony. Fire tankers take it so they can use ice patch to keep stuff in the burn patch.
Ice Armor is unpopular for reasons covered in this thread. Most people who play Ice/ or /Ice tankers seem to reroll them after they get the idea that the primary or secondary is subpar. Taking both is like kneecapping yourself.
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After I picked up Ice Patch, my life as a tanker became easier. I now had a tool that I could actually count on to keep a large portion of the mob group from attacking me OR my teammates. Could I do my job before Ice Patch? Yes. Could I do it much better after Ice Patch? Yes.
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But that's no reason to talk about ice patch (or any other Ice Melee power) as if it's joined at the hip with Ice Armor.
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Robot_Lawyer,
If I5 goes live with the current changes, including the changes Statesman has offered so far, here is my planned respec.
Not meaning to sound melodramatic, but I don't see how Ice can be a viable tanker under these conditions. My scrappers - regen and dark - can outtank my ice tanker right now.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Not only does Ice Patch offer the already mentioned benefits and doesn't need a to-hit role *cough* and can be powered out three at a time (with recharge slotts)...
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Yeah, but Fault slotted with disorient and I can leave stuff disoriented for more than a minute. And it only takes 20s to get the power back. And it can work on Bosses with a single application, which I'm pretty sure Ice Patch can't.
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The probelm with combining ice patch and end drain into the equation is it doesn't help on range, doesn't help on flyers and definetly doesn't work on AV's and Monsters.
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Not to mention "doesn't help on non-Ice Melee tankers"... :P
Kam