Hmm...
The 300' range might be long enough, I'm not sure. I'm skeptical, but now that it's only affecting street hunting, it might be that occurrences of people who really participated in a battle not getting XP for it will be rare enough to be acceptable.
I think the one-minute death timer still needs to be re-thought. From a standpoint of losing XP for a battle you participated in, the death timer now worries me more than the range thing.
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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From a standpoint of split teaming, though, this is still a bad change. You're encouraging people to disband if there are members of their team out of range. I don't think this is a good thing to be doing.
Anytime pizza is used as an analogy? Awesome. Course, now I'm hungry and kinda mad at the pizza place
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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So if your soloing some enemies while you wait for your team, or for whatever reason are killing enemies in a seperate area while in a team. You'll get your exp divided up but it wont go anywhere, just detract from your share. Okkaaaay.
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
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About the "dead for more than a minute" XP cutoff: It sounds too short to me. Why do you believe it needs to be such a short time? I can't see how getting XP while waiting for a rez for two to three minutes is a problem. It's not exploitable. In battles where the team is struggling, or there is no rezzer available, that one minute will go past too quickly. Please consider raising that limit to 2 or 3 minutes instead, Statesman.
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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That's not cool dude.
If your team mates are out of range to get any XP then you should get solo XP, since you obviously did all the work.
I love what the devs do most of the time, but even Einstein made mistakes.
What I want from the devs at this point is an explanation. The original idea hurt everyone, and gave some annoyances to all powerleveling.
This second incarnation of the concept still hurts everyone, but gives only a small portion of pling a minor annoyance. Herding missions are still quite viable.
So in the end, what is the point? If this is meant to hurt pling, its not doing that to the best extent and should not be brought live. If its meant to slow the game down a tad for everyone, then it works. But just to slow the game down is a poor reason to implement something like this.
xavi_justice has one of the better ideas so far not talked about:
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If the intention is to stop PLing (patrolling, missions, whereever), then why not restrict these changes only to heroes which must be sked in order to get xp from the team?
e.g. I have a 4 hero team - a lvl 50, 2 lvl 43s, and a lvl 39 in a Praetorian lab mission with elevators. I assume they are all male heroes
The lvl 43s are experienced enough to contribute to the team w/o a sk. They will get xp from any team kill, even if they were sked to the 50 i.e. no change from Issue 3 on live.
The lvl 39 needs a sk to gain team xp. He will have the new xp range restrictions placed on him as he has to actively contribute to the battles in order to 'learn' from his mentors.
Hope my example is clear and sorry if it has been posted before
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Combine this with the current set up, up the death timer and increase the range a little more and we have ourselves an overall ok idea. If they MUST put something like this in the game, this is the way it should be done.
Another thing with this situation is that major pl'ers probably already have one or two (and more) 50's. These are hardcore gamers who probably bought the game at or close to release, and may have quit. If they haven't quit by now, I don't see them quitting in numbers until long after they pl through CoV, which is right around the corner. People who buy the game as total noobs now, are most likely casual gamers. This change just adds something to monitor and worry about.
You know I never cared about some hero buying stuff and getting xp while I killed, because I'm sure at some point the tables would turn. But now that xp is wasted totally, which isn't cool for me. I don't want to work for less gain. And yes I know I still get the EXACT same gain on test and live, but on test the rest of the xp is wasted, so in essence I am working the same for less pay-off when it comes to total xp flow (me and my team).
I didn't like the change in its first form, and I still don't like it now. It's an annoyance in a game that has stayed away from annoyances. The devs now want us tethered to everything we gain xp for, which is no fun at all for a casually aimed, fast paced action RPG.
EDIT: Spelling.
i agree whole-heartedly with Bobartig, what he says makes a ton of sense; and i don't PL to speak of, i have occasional rounds with an alt in my sg, but still enjoy the new content--however, none of these "chains" are remotely necessary
er..sorry i don't post often; thats on page 5, what he said, the whole bit :-) Peace
Victory, Mr. Mighty, 50 Tank Inv/SS
+ various chars i can't get break 30 with cuz alts, alts, alts!
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So, for me at least, visual range was just under 300'. I didn't think to test targeting range.
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I was checking this on live and got about the same range with one of my contacts. An unenhanced teleport is about 300' and, at level 50, a superjump is under half that.
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
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Again I want to bring up the point that this is less time than the maximum recharge of any rez power and may leave one hero without xp in waiting, while another has just been rez'd.
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If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
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Is the death time limit also lifted? (Which would essentially mean that on mission maps, it will work the same as on the live servers?)
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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Is this to prevent someone using team members to boost their own xp rate?
Just wondering because when a team splits on the live servers (by zone/in or out of a mission) the xp is instead divided among the remaining members, and not all of them. Though I don't know which multiplier is being used in that case.
The one minute death timer thing also hurts any team that doesn't have an empathy or radiation defender on their team.
If you die on a team that doesn't have an awaken and doesn't have an empathy or radiation defender on it (and before you got an attack off or hit with an attack) you are penalized. If this is the case the amount of awakens that drop better be increased, I don't want to lose out on xp just because I didn't buy an awaken. Not only that one other poster posted an interesting problem, sinec every rex timer is what? 5min un-enhanced, if 3 members die before doing damage, what if an empathy defender can only get 2 of them up before the fight ends, which 2 does he rez? how mad will that 3 person be? If they are only letting us be dead a minute before we forfiet our xp then rez timers need to be looked at thats for sure.
Jade Pictures
DoIDD
Lady-Jade's Power Suggestion Thread
@Lady-Jade
I've duscussed my thoughts at length so I'll be quick and simple this time.
Just drop this. It's harmful to the entire game simply to humbug the PL crowd. The controllers and defenders who don't deal damage with many of their abilities will be hurt the most.
The death timer is lame, because in a heated fight it can be over a minute before someone can rez you, and without someone like that, you must wait until it's clear to rez safely.
Just drop it States. PLing will still happen, and this will make people want a PL EVEN MORE as xp slows down even further.
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Well..it's much better than before..but STOP TRYING TO STOP POWERLEVELERS! umm..please Don't get me wrong this is much better..but nobody really cares about powerlevelers..this is removing freedom from the game, and adding stress by making you be close to your team when hunting..then again usually you are close when hunting. Sometimes people hunt in spread up groups..but this is better than the other idea...
-edit-
ok, this actually looks like a very good idea..nevermind what I said about stopping powerlevelers...this is not a perfect idea, but there is no possible perfect solution, good job statesman
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I've duscussed my thoughts at length so I'll be quick and simple this time.
Just drop this. It's harmful to the entire game simply to humbug the PL crowd. The controllers and defenders who don't deal damage with many of their abilities will be hurt the most.
The death timer is lame, because in a heated fight it can be over a minute before someone can rez you, and without someone like that, you must wait until it's clear to rez safely.
Just drop it States. PLing will still happen, and this will make people want a PL EVEN MORE as xp slows down even further.
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/beginrant
*cough*
I just wanted to toss in my 2 influence and agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with this... It's really getting to be too much. I really don't understand how some cretinous idgit choosing to PL a character and missing out on all the actual _joy_ of the game affects any of the rest of us in the least. Furthermore, the constant efforts to contain the powerlevelers by gimping the game (removing a lot of that joy factor in case you hadn't noticed, while upping the stress, strife and general dissension tenfold) and screwing it up for those of us who are really just doing our best to come together and have a good time.
I don't condone powerleveling.
I don't flame people for doing it, it's really their perogative in my eyes.
It's not for me, in fact I spent most of the time playing my first level 50 soloing, only teaming when I really needed to or was asked to assist someone.
Now that I feel I've come to truly begin to understand the game a bit, I'm putting myself out there and _really_ joining the community. Many of you have probably seen me running around Virtue as Necronom, Freedom as Blue M 'n M, or Justice as Debtmonkey or tEH nEWBIE...
I still don't see just how in the hell people powerleveling ingame has EVER taken any joy out of the game for me, at least not until you good people decided to take it upon yourselves to do so on their behalf.
Really, it makes so little sense to me. Please, dear players, explain it to me. We're cutting off our nose to spite our face, and we're doing it to try and force people who DON'T want to really PLAY the game to PLAY the game. If they don't want to truly experience what City of Heroes can be, to hell with them! It wasn't affecting me in the slightest, and I for one just want to get back to having a good time. Several of the recent changes seem to be making that a difficulty for a number of us. PLEASE try to consider the entire community here, not just the random gits who tend to clog the Internet anyway.
Thank you.
/endrant
Wount stop pling at all - no impact what so ever.
I agree, if people want to PL let them. Other PL'ing doesn't hurt me personally in the least. However the the cure is painful. I don't smoke, but I don't hound people who do. The PL'ers pay their $15 just like I do. They are free to enjoy the game as they see fit, jsut as I am free to play the game as I see fit. If I want to spend 12 hours in game dancing, who cares? It doesn't hurt anyone at all. If some guy I have never met, chooses to PL his character up to lvl 14 cause he hates having no travel power...how does that in any way shape or form hurt me? You are forcing paying costomers to play the game your way, which really defeats the purpose of an MMO, One of the big draws of an MMO is how open ended it is, that each of us who pay out every month can play how they want to play. I know it was mentioned the Taxi-Bots, who sit in the train station for hours at a time TP people to the train station. That certainly isn't the way I want to play the game but I'd never force these people to play the game the way I want to play.
If Pl'ing was causing harm to other players then certainly i can see putting all this effort into stoping it but as such there is no form of PL (that I know of) that harms any other players in the game (except maybe the lowbies in PI crying to be PL'd but that what the /ignore command was invented for)
I don't think any fix that is supposed to stop PL'ing should hurt the general players and this fix does just that. As many have pointed out, PL'ing is still going to happen I have show that even with this 'fix' you can still PL, and missions arn't altered by this fix and from what I have seen more PL'ing happens in missions then on the street.
Jade Pictures
DoIDD
Lady-Jade's Power Suggestion Thread
@Lady-Jade
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You are forcing paying costomers to play the game your way, which really defeats the purpose of an MMO, One of the big draws of an MMO is how open ended it is, that each of us who pay out every month can play how they want to play. I know it was mentioned the Taxi-Bots, who sit in the train station for hours at a time TP people to the train station. That certainly isn't the way I want to play the game but I'd never force these people to play the game the way I want to play.
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Exactly my point. They're ripping the game apart and for nothing. It's just bringing the rest of us down. As for the Taxi-Bots, watch out, your days may be numbered... 
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Wount stop pling at all - no impact what so ever.
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Exactly my point. They're ripping the game apart and for nothing. It's just bringing the rest of us down.
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It's not meant to stop powerleveling...only one very narrow but visible form of powerleveling that many people FREQUENTLY complain about on the forums and in-game.
This earlier post explains what it is intended to hinder.
This is sort of like some cities that pass an ordinance to get panhandlers or bums off the streets. It doesn't solve the homeless problem or stop panhandling, but it DOES stop people from having to see it. And, ultimately, it appears that's what most people want. They just don't want to have to SEE the powerlevelers...regardless of whether or not they continue to exist.
Think of it as the Paragon City Beautification Project. 
Dwimble
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An unenhanced teleport is about 300' and, at level 50, a superjump is under half that.
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Wrong. my lvl 31 blaster jumps 220 YARDS- that's 660 feet. It's not uncommon for her to leave SJ on when street hunting, and use it to get away quick when things go wrong.
There's any number of legitimate reasons someone could be outside the range of XP. As one person said, I don't mind those who are shopping, or slow getting to the scene getting a trickle of XP from those of us who are fighting, because I know that there will be times when I am that slowpoke, so it all evens out.
That's an argument based on the assumption that we're all HEROES, doing a heroic job. It's unfair, and somewhat rude to assume that all of us who do so are attempting to put one over on the system.
Like I, and many of the other have said before, this isnt going to even show up on most PLs radar, while it going to hose a whole lot of everyday players. This crusade needs to stop before it kills the game. The harder you make it for the average player to progress, the more people you're going to either drive to PL, or just drive from the game.
First of all, I disagree with many of the people here on how big of a deal this change is. I think it's welcome and know that it will have negligible impact on the way I play CoH (keyword, I, me, myself). In my opinion, you should be both actively contributing something and actively risking something if you want to be rewarded. This means that a street cleaning team that splits into two sub-teams should not receive kill XP for kills they didn't "risk and contribute" too, neither should a hero receive mission bonus XP if he doesn't "risk and contribute" to that mission. (Note that the proposed change doesn't actually impact mission XP at all, this is just my opinion.)
That being said, I do have three misgiving with the change:
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
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First, XP shouldn't be based on damage. If I use a power on a teammate who then kills a mob, or if I use a non-damaging power on a mob, I should be eligible for XP the same as a player who did damage that mob. It shouldn't matter if I'm standing in the thick of things or cowering 301 ft. away.
Second, as other's have stated, I can easily imagine several more-or-less legitimate circumstances where a toon is dead for longer than a minute but still contributed (or at least contributed enough to warrant XP). I think the main idea behind this specific change is that a contributing hero--regardless if she's a support or attack AT--will be alive (and nearby) much more frequently than she will be dead (and far away). Alive, the hero will presumably be (a) contributing to the team, and (b) risking death and debt.
- As a positive example of this, we'll use a bubble (i.e. force field) controller. These guys can often just bubble folks up before a battle then drink soda and watch TV. As long as no one's bubble bursts before the fight is over, everyone's more or less happy with the controller's contribution. Assuming, however, that the controller does try to do something else and gets himself one shot early in the fight, he should still get XP for the fight.
- As a negative example, you have the dead hero being teleported to each battle in order to leach XP without risking (further) debt. He is not contributing and not risking, he should not get experience. Note that this example has nothing to do with the corpse power-leveling. Any time a player is being rewarded without taking any risk, there's a problem with the game that needs fixed. The presence of power-levelers is not the problem, it's the exploits they are, um, exploiting that are the problem.
<ul type="square">Suggestion 1: Dead-to-Live
Track how much experience players receive while dead and how much while alive. As long as the ratio of dead-to-live is reasonable, the hero should continue to accrue XP while dead. If the ratio gets too unbalanced the hero stops gaining XP while dead. For example, a hero may only be able to earn 1 XP while dead for every 100 XP he earns while alive--and this ratio can get more divergent the higher the hero's level, etc. It's reasonable to assume that our bubble controller will earn the majority of his XP while alive, so this won't impact him. It will, however, impact the XP-earning corpse very quickly. This is my favorite suggestion because it would probably be easy to implement, is conceptually simple, and seems the most fair.
Suggestion 2: Dead-to-Debt
XP while dead only goes toward XP debt. This suggestion was mentioned by GadgetDon. While it's simple and reasonable (assuming mission bonus XP is exempted) there is the possibility that large XP hauls from AV/Monsters/Etc. may be missed because the dead hero no longer has debt to get rid of. This suggestion is also the most unfair to our bubble controller who (unless he's in a lot of debt already) will be missing out on an entire battle's worth of XP. It's also most... unfair... to our XP-corpse too, which is a good thing. Regardless, this is my second favorite suggestion.
Suggestion 3: Start-to-Death
Reward the player experience as long as he was alive when combat was initiated and would be eligible to receive XP if still alive. The bubble controller example will receive experience for the entire fight because he was alive when combat began. The corpse will receive full XP the first time he does this but will need to be rezed before each fight (and will therefore be risking death and debt, if not actually contributing). This would be my least favorite suggestion if it weren't conceptually more simple than the next one.
Suggestion 4: Total Dead
Give every hero a "total dead timer" (or TDT) in addition to the 1-minute timer. Every time a hero dies, he would be given a full minute during which he will receive full experience from his mates' kills (i.e. what Statesman says will be happening). After this minute elapses, he will then receive experience only if he has time left on his TDT. Unlike the 1-minute timer, the TDT does not reset with each death, but is persistent over a period of time. For example, the TDT could be 5-10 min for every hour played. As long as a hero has time on either (a) his 1-minute timer, or (b) his TDT, he'll receive full XP for kills while dead. Our bubble controller who (hopefully) isn't spending too much time on his back should have a comfortable buffer remaining in his TDT if he dies but can't be rezed for little while. The corpse, however, will quickly eat through his TDT and then only have the 1-minute per death XP. Even though I like this suggestion better than #3, it's my least favorite because it sounds like it would be the most difficult to implement. To work best, you need some way to distinguish combat dead time from just plain dead time; that is the TDT should only be counting down when the player could actually be earning XP, not just when the player is dead.[/list][ QUOTE ]
He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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This is my third misgiving. If you're splitting XP, but the other players aren't getting their split than the bonus should be calculated against the number of players who'll actually get a share of the XP, then divided among those players. I'm guessing that would take a pretty big change to the way experience is calculated though, otherwise Statesmen would be doing it that way already. (Well, that and the bridging PL issue, which is as much a problem with the SK/Mentor system as it is a problem with the experience system itself, and this post is too long already.)
here's an idea for dealing with the inevitable xp loss that this ridiculous Exp Leash will cost you:
keep a rough mental estimate of what you're losing as you go about your usual gaming regimen and then make up the difference on a wolf mission or acting as a bridge for somebody.
And those of you who feel your game experience is cheapened unless you drag every single exp kicking and screaming from the clawed hands of the devs:
Feel free take your Exp Leash losses in stride and use the extra time it will take you to hit 50 doing the same missions over and over and over.
I still support your right to play the game however you want, even though you don't return the favor. =D
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Ok, I just want to clarify something, here. This is to cut out a no-risk yet reward situation, right? Let me point out a hypothetical situation that happens fairly often:
We run in on Infernal (the one with the summoning altar). We manage to get the altar destroyed and all the minions it spawns gone, but someone drops. Now, there are no defenders or controllers in this group (happens alot with my scrapper-heavy SG), so scrapper a that drops in the initial onslaught has 3 choices. Hit the hospital, and pray he can get back in time, wait for the altar to be almost gone, pop a rez inspiration, and immediately die again (so he'll be dead less than a minute) and just accept the extra debt so he can get ANY XP, or just stay dead and miss the xp he got killed trying to get. Now, that situation is over, and we hit Infernal. Scrapper B runs up, and whiffs never hitting Infernal. Infernal swings that big axe of his and one-shots said scrapper. Infernal takes 4 minutes to beat down. Scrapper B is now faced with the same choice scrapper A was faced with.
How is this matching risk to reward? By my understanding of your post, since both scrappers would be dead for over a minute without having done any damage, they miss out on xp. Same deal with the guy that mentioned controller powers.
Couldn't it be changed to be if you affect the villain or the villain effects you? Dead or not? That way if I was already dead, and TPd to Infernal I wouldn't get jack, but if I die fighting Infernal (without getting to do damage to him) without someone to rez me at full life I don't miss out on xp.
Just a thought, but how about a graphical feedback when you are out of range, what would work I guess is the players who are out of the 200" range having the name gray out, sorta half way between the blacked out of in a diffrent zone.
That way you could tell if you are in danger of not getting xp and it would prompt you to move closer.
It would also give feedback to players if one of the party dropped behind, so they could wait for him to catch up, or if he's gone AFK, boot him from the group.
this is ridiculous, it doen't curtail PL'ing in the least, yet it hurts legitimate teams, especially controllers. Were you not looking at "fixing" controller issues? This is adding to one to the list. Couldn't valuable dev time be used to fix the whole pets using elevators issue rather than something so trivial as this? All the nerfing and so called balancing is heading this once fabulous game into mediocrity. My SG and I have literally played every night since july of 04, because the game is just that good at keeping our attention. Changes like this are diverting that attention. Spend the time on content and fixing real issues. Give us long time players a reason to renew with every issue rather than give us more reasons not to. My SG alone has spent literally thousands of gaming dollars on CoH, and I am sure we'd all like to continue. make the decision to leave well enough alone.
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If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
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Thank you for listening.
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Isn't that the point of this change, to get the PL'ers out of the tram station and at least within viewing distance of the fight?
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If changes this profound to the game need to be made so another player whom I don't know- and therefore has never had the opportunity to affect my game let alone the inclination or ability to do so, adversely or otherwise- is encouraged to take the "scenic" route through his daily PLing, then I think this is a change I can do without.
Yes, a bit of the old argumentum ad absurdam I know... Strangely I still feel it's oddly apt for discussing this particular measure.