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Bottom line: if you're not giving someone XP, don't count them in the XP division calculation. The rest of this system sounds perfectly reasonable.
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Your point is completely true, but it presents the devs with an interesting conundrum that I mentioned earlier in this thread. If they changed it so that XPs were calculated based on only the number of people in range, so that you get the "right" amount of XPs that you deserve, then it would be instantly exploited by powerlevelers. Using the common SK/Mentor (Bridging) method of powerleveling, the sidekicked player would stay in range of the guy fighting and the mentor (bridge) would stay in range of the sidekick but not the mobs being fought. That would give the SK even more XPs than if this change had never been implemented. The XPs would be divided by two people--the person fighting and the SK--instead of divided by all three of them. So, that would be a more efficient form of powerleveling than existed before the change. The devs could give you more XPs when the team is divided, and in the process introduce a better form of powerleveling, or they could leave it as is. Obviously they opted for the choice that doesn't actually improve powerleveling.
Personally, I find the irony of the whole thing very amusing.
Dwimble
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Ah Dwimble why are you using the tram rather then a hospital or tram way point?
You can barely tab target something 300 feet away. Only way you can snipe something is to put in a bunch of hami range and boost range it. Already on live this often doesn't register in the combat log. And even then when you snipe something in FF from the entrance to the nearest 5th near the square if they run away from a snipe such as moonbeam you don't get credit for the defeat since they run out of visual range.
Most games already have a visual range reward system to everyone in a team. If you are in a team and out of visual range of the person doing the defeating you don't get credit.
In beta it was suggested that this be put in place.
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I think you have feet and yards confused. With five HOs, I get over 600 ft with my snipe. And that's just inside Vision Range. Vision Range is a little bit above 200 yds. About 650-700 feet. Not 300.
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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Ok, wait, so if you have a 3 person team, and they are all say 400 feet apart, and person A kills a Skull that's worth say, 20 points, Person A gets 8-9 xp (don't know the modifiers, but I know it's more than 1/3 of the total xp a mob is worth). Person B gets squat for xp/influence but credit for the kill, as does person C.
So breaking it down, teaming for street hunting now equals out of 20 xp for 3 people that are outside the range of each other and Person A Solo'd the kill:
Person A = 8-9 xp (or whatever) and credit for kill (badge/mish)
Person B = 0 xp but credit for kill (badge/mish)
Person C = 0 xp but credit for kill (badge/mish)
Same situation, but A and B are within 300 feet and person C is out of range, and did no damage:
Person A = 8-9 xp and badge/mish credit
Person B = 8-9 xp and badge/mish credit
Person C = 0 xp but badge/mish credit
So, after all this work on trying to get teaming to be more productive/worthwhile/enjoyable, you have ESSENTIALLY made streethunting in dispersal units LESS rewarding than soloing, UNLESS you're working on badges or a mish.
I REALLY think you should make it so that if A and B are together, and C is out of range:
Person A = 12-13 xp and credit
Person B = 12-13 xp and credit
Person C = squat xp but credit
Otherwise, you're going to see ALOT of slowdown in streethunting, or situations where if someone needs to rest for end real quick, but aren't ESSENTIAL for the team (buffer, who's buffs are still going) slowing down the entire operation so that everyone is together and not wasting xp.
It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
Sorry States, while I agree with the CONCEPT of what you're trying to accomplish, it's a bad way to do it, you're gonna see even more impatient people on teams kicking slower moving players, because, "they're ruining our xp" Value shouldn't change until that person is in range IMO, and I'm sure people who like this concept will agree.
Oh one odd thing when using a contact on an even surface to judge distance 66 yds was way further then when you have the tram targeted. same thing occured with mission doors.Kinda odd.
Um, Pollution, Dwimble made a post TWO POSTS ABOVE YOURS that you need to check out. It details how if the devs did that, it would allow for powerleveling to be EASIER and IMPROVED with this system.
Wrong. I have numerous times confirmed distance at 100 yds I couldn't see a contact or a mob in visual range.
I can tab then move further such as 600 ft and still keep the tab on the mob but it wouldn't register on the combat log till i had moved much closer and this is on live.
If they are in a mission waiting for someone to arrive the person outside selling isn't getting xp anyway.
And in missions xp range doesn't occur. Also most people wait for a buffer or debuffer to rest because they have sense. People that run off while someone is recovering end often cause team wipes.
Your scenario already happens when someone takes too long getting somewhere past level 20 because they should have a damn travel power.
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It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no. If he's taking too long, he just doesn't get any xp. You still get the same experience you would ALWAYS get with three people. He would just get zero. You're wasting experience still, but it's HIS problem, not yours. If he's not helping the team, sure, kick him. But you're getting the SAME experience as you do CURRENTLY on Live. He's in the team, he's sucking a 1/3 of the experience. The only difference is that with these changes, he wouldn't get any of the xp. YOU STILL DO!!!
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Ah Dwimble why are you using the tram rather then a hospital or tram way point?
You can barely tab target something 300 feet away...
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Just to clarify...I just used the tram to illustrate the distance because it is a common thing that everyone uses and is familiar with. Just saying "300 feet" is rather arbitrary. It can be hard to conceptualize exactly how far that is without some common reference point. My post was in response to a 300 feet being "very far" and "halfway across the zone" comment. I wasn't trying to make any kind of commentary about whether that distance is too far or not far enough.
My point was merely that 300' isn't really very far, not that it is an unfair distance for the XP range restrictions. A Super Speeder can travel 300' in 2.4 seconds. A Teleporter travels that far in one jump.
Dwimble
After all this I have one thing to say.
XP Range equals one thing....
CoH will be less fun with it.
Thats it. Im shutting up now.
Good. Because all of us mission goers won't be affected by it. Ciao.
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It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no. If he's taking too long, he just doesn't get any xp. You still get the same experience you would ALWAYS get with three people. He would just get zero. You're wasting experience still, but it's HIS problem, not yours. If he's not helping the team, sure, kick him. But you're getting the SAME experience as you do CURRENTLY on Live. He's in the team, he's sucking a 1/3 of the experience. The only difference is that with these changes, he wouldn't get any of the xp. YOU STILL DO!!!
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Conceptually the 'team' does receive less xp. I personally may not be hurt by it but the whole point of teaming is to either seek help in a difficult situation or create an efficient fighting force. I personally equate XP earning in that "efficiency". I'm glad to help a teamed player get a little xp while they shop. I hope they will do the same for me.
actually this whole thing is really funny. Let's get those raskly PLers by moving around in huddled groups to make sure we don't lose out on xp. We'll look like Hammidon groups all over the city. DON'T LEAVE THE XP BUBBLE! LEAVE THE XP BUBBLE AND YOU WILL DIE!
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Um, Pollution, Dwimble made a post TWO POSTS ABOVE YOURS that you need to check out. It details how if the devs did that, it would allow for powerleveling to be EASIER and IMPROVED with this system.
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Ok, Didn't see that post, wasn't there when I started typing my objection. I CAN see the advantage of having a SK in the range, but his mentor outside the range (but still in SK range) for my suggestion. He's right, that would be big PL advantage.
Conceptually nothing. These changes have no effect on your personal xp gain. A lagger left behind would drain your experience exactly as much as it does currently on live. Sure, the total team xp is lower, but who cares if the guy who decided shopping was more important doesn't get any xp? You're still getting the same xp as you do on Live. A person sitting in a team not doing anything is ALWAYS a drain on team xp, regardless of whether or not they themselves get any xp by it.
So this has no effect on your experience gain, only on the people who fall behind.
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Wrong. I have numerous times confirmed distance at 100 yds I couldn't see a contact or a mob in visual range.
I can tab then move further such as 600 ft and still keep the tab on the mob but it wouldn't register on the combat log till i had moved much closer and this is on live.
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I ran around last night kind of absentmindedly checking the distance of things because this whole range thing got me curious. I had that Alexander Something-or-other Warrior mission that gets you the Redeemer badge. So, I kept having to go back to Alexander over and over at the end of the long dock in Talos. I could get approximately 270 feet back from him (90 yrds) before he disappeared. So, for me at least, visual range was just under 300'. I didn't think to test targeting range.
Dwimble
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no. If he's taking too long, he just doesn't get any xp. You still get the same experience you would ALWAYS get with three people. He would just get zero. You're wasting experience still, but it's HIS problem, not yours. If he's not helping the team, sure, kick him. But you're getting the SAME experience as you do CURRENTLY on Live. He's in the team, he's sucking a 1/3 of the experience. The only difference is that with these changes, he wouldn't get any of the xp. YOU STILL DO!!!
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You'd be AMAZED by how impatient people can be. 5 min in CoH can seem like a lifetime. (ever need that nuke, but wasted it on a bad click and now have to wait?). The number of, "I kicked him cause he's too slow" WILL be seen ALOT. I firmly believe that this will become common.
Besides, this isn't the main PL method anyway, herding is how most of it occures (to my knowledge), and all you have to do is herd to the group (using a high-low sk method). Hell, I've done the fire tank herds to the sk'd lowbie who's mentor is 5 levels below for max sk xp thing, just to help someone get to the travel power after 12 levels of sprint. Trust me, this won't help that, but WILL help teaming go bye bye.
Concerning the "Right for Might" concept:
Sure, I understand that Cryptic doesn't want people just breezing through the game like a modern-day platform/action console game. I understand that they like money as well. However, it's one thing to find ways to cut out and snip bits power leveling away, to get rid of the tumorous mass that's atatched to the game (ie, timer on the Wolf mission). And it's a whole 'nother to start messing with things that affect the entire game player-base (these proposed changes).
The only problem is that for the most part, this situation is neither of those. Instead, this is hurting the 'casual' player in the name of powerleveling and barely helping to solve the real 'problem'. I know it's not intentional, but doing things that overly affect everyone, and barely even touch upon its intended target, makes things go very bad.
My point still stands: this is only nipping a tiny bit of powerleveling in the bud, while screwing casual players. (Didn't the Civil War start a similar way? ZOMG Nemesis!! >.>
I highly doubt they will ever actually try to nerf ALL outdoor missions, which for the most part can be herded, apparently (and besides the fact that herding can be done pretty much anywhere). Thus, most of the powerleveling 'problem' will never be solved then.
On top of that, who's to say that powerlevelers are losing Cryptic big bucks? They had to pay for the game, for one. Second, even if they powerlevel, who's to say they're losing Cryptic more money than say, someone who only played for a month, then quit because they didn't like the game? And here's the final thought: Why do you think they're powerleveling in the first place? They clearly have no interest in content, so if anything, if they feel antagonized by this change, they'd still quit 'early'.
As DJ Jester has said multiple times: We need scalpel precision, not a sledgehammer.
We need Dr. States with a lazer beam. Not Dr. Vahz with a hacksaw. 
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
I submit for all people's approval, the assertion that this does NOTHING to stop PL-ing.
Keep your lowbie within 300 feet. Easily done if you set them as a waypoint. If the lowbie does not attack, he gets no aggro, doesn't die, and you can continue to rake in XP with impunity.
Further, you can revel in the knowledge that the change targetted at you is instead hurting the play opportunities of players who are trying to play the game legitimately, while you have dodged the bullet with common sense, and know-how.
A real fix? Increase mob-perception of lower level heroes.
An example of this fix:
An even level hero will initiate aggression from the enemies through presence alone at a range of X feet.
Lower level heroes would be aggressed at a range greater than X, based on how MUCH lower they were, and further, have a % of their stealth abilities nullified by a perception buff also relative to level of the foes in question.
Every Freak in Brickstown would LOVE the opportunity to jump some greenhorn who's gotten in over his head. When you've been in the business as long as a level 33 Freak Tank has, you can spot 'em from a mile away.
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
Contacts may not be able to be seen from 300 feet, but I HAVE CONFIRMED that I can tab-target enemies from up to 650 feet away. I was hunting in Peregrine at the time, Hovering up high and scanning the city with tab, targeting enemies OVER SIX HUNDRED FEET AWAY! I was also able to VISUALLY see the villains from 600 feet, just a little short of my vision range. Any further than about 650 feet and I lost target, but I didn't just move backwards after targeting. No, I TARGETED from 600 feet.
So you're wrong when it comes to mobs, right when it comes to contacts.
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Still confused about one point: if (for example) you've got a three person team, each person on the team is 400' away from each other person, and person X defeats a bad guy -- does person X get "solo XP" or XP for being on a 3 person team?
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He'd get XP with the 3 person team multiplier...BUT that XP would still be divided appropriately between each teammate. The others, however, wouldn't receive their shares.
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Doesn't this seem a tad unfair? Are we supposed to not want to team?
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Actually, this is a good thing. It will prevent from people splitting off and running ahead to get a bigger chunk of the XP.
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It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no. If he's taking too long, he just doesn't get any xp. You still get the same experience you would ALWAYS get with three people. He would just get zero. You're wasting experience still, but it's HIS problem, not yours. If he's not helping the team, sure, kick him. But you're getting the SAME experience as you do CURRENTLY on Live. He's in the team, he's sucking a 1/3 of the experience. The only difference is that with these changes, he wouldn't get any of the xp. YOU STILL DO!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
You'd be AMAZED by how impatient people can be. 5 min in CoH can seem like a lifetime. (ever need that nuke, but wasted it on a bad click and now have to wait?). The number of, "I kicked him cause he's too slow" WILL be seen ALOT. I firmly believe that this will become common.
Besides, this isn't the main PL method anyway, herding is how most of it occures (to my knowledge), and all you have to do is herd to the group (using a high-low sk method). Hell, I've done the fire tank herds to the sk'd lowbie who's mentor is 5 levels below for max sk xp thing, just to help someone get to the travel power after 12 levels of sprint. Trust me, this won't help that, but WILL help teaming go bye bye.
[/ QUOTE ]
But are you even paying attention????? This change HAS NO EFFECT on teaming experience for you, only on the guys who fall behind because they are SLOW! If you currently don't kick people who are slow, you are getting LESS XP from them being on your team. The SAME XP as if you didn't kick them with these changes. Meaning your whole argument is moot, it's pointless to bring up something that affects us even NOW on Live. Teaming will NOT go bye bye, since it still happens on Live.
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Conceptually nothing. These changes have no effect on your personal xp gain. A lagger left behind would drain your experience exactly as much as it does currently on live. Sure, the total team xp is lower, but who cares if the guy who decided shopping was more important doesn't get any xp? You're still getting the same xp as you do on Live. A person sitting in a team not doing anything is ALWAYS a drain on team xp, regardless of whether or not they themselves get any xp by it.
So this has no effect on your experience gain, only on the people who fall behind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, people will kick due to no travel power, or slowness way more than they do now. Because he's wasting points. People are INSANE about wasting things in CoH, awakens/CoB's/Rages. You think xp will be ANY different? it'll be worse. It may FEEL the same as it does now, but People will be MUCH more aware of it, and kick the guy who waited to get flight or Super Jump until 18 because he wanted other powers to help him (and his team) out more now instead of later. I have SEVERAL characters that didn't get a travel power till post 16 and even 2 with NO travel power who are over 30, that slowness will cost people teams MUCH more often.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line: if you're not giving someone XP, don't count them in the XP division calculation. The rest of this system sounds perfectly reasonable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your point is completely true, but it presents the devs with an interesting conundrum that I mentioned earlier in this thread. If they changed it so that XPs were calculated based on only the number of people in range, so that you get the "right" amount of XPs that you deserve, then it would be instantly exploited by powerlevelers. Using the common SK/Mentor (Bridging) method of powerleveling, the sidekicked player would stay in range of the guy fighting and the mentor (bridge) would stay in range of the sidekick but not the mobs being fought. That would give the SK even more XPs than if this change had never been implemented. The XPs would be divided by two people--the person fighting and the SK--instead of divided by all three of them. So, that would be a more efficient form of powerleveling than existed before the change. The devs could give you more XPs when the team is divided, and in the process introduce a better form of powerleveling, or they could leave it as is. Obviously they opted for the choice that doesn't actually improve powerleveling.
Personally, I find the irony of the whole thing very amusing.
Dwimble
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Heh, this hadn't occured to me... I figured the high level folks are all in there fighting and that having someone hang back would slow down the combat enough to not be worth it. I don't have much experience in l33t PL techniques.
And as someone above pointed out, the group that is doing the fighting still gets the same XP they were getting under the old system. They just miss out on the warm fuzzy feeling of helping out their erstwhile comrades.
Not being a PLer and not caring much about PLers, I don't really see the need for this change, but with the latest updates, I don't see it affecting me that much either. I hope it has the effect they desire though, just because I hate to see coders wasting their time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's going to be alot of:
/invite BlueComet
waits for BlueComet to arrive, waiting, waiting, waiting
BlueComet is 1/2 way there, but needs to sell real quick or level....
/kick BlueComet
/team he was taking too long, forget him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, no. If he's taking too long, he just doesn't get any xp. You still get the same experience you would ALWAYS get with three people. He would just get zero. You're wasting experience still, but it's HIS problem, not yours. If he's not helping the team, sure, kick him. But you're getting the SAME experience as you do CURRENTLY on Live. He's in the team, he's sucking a 1/3 of the experience. The only difference is that with these changes, he wouldn't get any of the xp. YOU STILL DO!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
You'd be AMAZED by how impatient people can be. 5 min in CoH can seem like a lifetime. (ever need that nuke, but wasted it on a bad click and now have to wait?). The number of, "I kicked him cause he's too slow" WILL be seen ALOT. I firmly believe that this will become common.
Besides, this isn't the main PL method anyway, herding is how most of it occures (to my knowledge), and all you have to do is herd to the group (using a high-low sk method). Hell, I've done the fire tank herds to the sk'd lowbie who's mentor is 5 levels below for max sk xp thing, just to help someone get to the travel power after 12 levels of sprint. Trust me, this won't help that, but WILL help teaming go bye bye.
[/ QUOTE ]
But are you even paying attention????? This change HAS NO EFFECT on teaming experience for you, only on the guys who fall behind because they are SLOW! If you currently don't kick people who are slow, you are getting LESS XP from them being on your team. The SAME XP as if you didn't kick them with these changes. Meaning your whole argument is moot, it's pointless to bring up something that affects us even NOW on Live. Teaming will NOT go bye bye, since it still happens on Live.
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I'm not arguing that it will change how it is for the team, I'm saying that the amount of kicking will be MUCH higher becuse someone's slow. I agree, that there is no change in reward for the team, and only punishes the guy left behind, but the team will more often be kicking slower players because of it.
You won't see alot of lvl 15s teaming with lvl 13s anymore, they won't want to wait for the guy, and it SEEMS like they're being punished. It may not be the reality, but it's the PERSEPTION that's going to cause this.
There will be MUCH less patience in the game than there is now, ALOT less.
Ah Dwimble why are you using the tram rather then a hospital or tram way point?
You can barely tab target something 300 feet away. Only way you can snipe something is to put in a bunch of hami range and boost range it. Already on live this often doesn't register in the combat log. And even then when you snipe something in FF from the entrance to the nearest 5th near the square if they run away from a snipe such as moonbeam you don't get credit for the defeat since they run out of visual range.
Most games already have a visual range reward system to everyone in a team. If you are in a team and out of visual range of the person doing the defeating you don't get credit.
In beta it was suggested that this be put in place.