I've said it a dozen times, and I'm going to say it again. Get rid of the death timer, and replace it with a system in which dead heroes get either 1/2 XP (pre-lvl 10) or debt recovery only (post-lvl 10), and 99% of the complaints about "I won't get my XP!" will go away.
NewScrapper
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How can you say a support AT is being "penalized" for not doing damage? You ain't supporting you team much if you are back 300 feet munching on Cheetos.
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I dunno... other day I'm on a mish and it's for a buddy who needs a controller to help handle mobs that are wiping out his entire team of 7 repeatedly. I get there and I'm sleeping, Holding, Terror and Mass Confusing everything in sight due to the number of villian groups all tightly packed.
Even with terror I do minimal damage to mass groups - I died like 3-4 times just trying to be everywhere at once. Granted they were playing like idiots and told them all so - but for my efforts to get them through the mish and complete it ... I got tons more debt than I ever recieved in XP.
I was in no way shape or form "munching on cheetos" - and my view is that thanks to the changes now out there I usually make more points soloing than I do with groups.
Here's why:
1) You can't garrantee that on your server there are people in your range who can team with you when you're playing. So you take the teams you get offered as an MC, not the ones you want to be on.
2) The lvl spread will force you to exempt or SK someone - usually outside your range. One of you - will not get the pts you deserve if you play your hardest.
3) It really hasn't stopped power leveling in the least - I still see swarms of lower levels in PI, and the Ferry from Talos to PI is still packed with even level 1s standing around going "Hey buddy can you spare a level???".
They may be happy with the changes - but what this has done to teaming is damage that will continue for a long time. My SG is having serious issues because the new people we bring in ... can't play with the more experienced ones, can't learn squat from them - without being penalized.
I'm sorry the answer was to put a level barrier on the upper zones ... not mess with the XP system. It would have been easier to implement and not affected so many people.
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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".
Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.
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Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.
Those are just off the top of my head.
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I can't find any of those that didn't get datamined to the devs satisfaction first before the change. So at best the change was made after players called attention to something that wasn't working as the devs intended.
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How can you say a support AT is being "penalized" for not doing damage? You ain't supporting you team much if you are back 300 feet munching on Cheetos.
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I dunno... other day I'm on a mish and it's for a buddy who needs a controller to help handle mobs that are wiping out his entire team of 7 repeatedly. I get there and I'm sleeping, Holding, Terror and Mass Confusing everything in sight due to the number of villian groups all tightly packed.
Even with terror I do minimal damage to mass groups - I died like 3-4 times just trying to be everywhere at once. Granted they were playing like idiots and told them all so - but for my efforts to get them through the mish and complete it ... I got tons more debt than I ever recieved in XP.
I was in no way shape or form "munching on cheetos" - and my view is that thanks to the changes now out there I usually make more points soloing than I do with groups.
Here's why:
1) You can't garrantee that on your server there are people in your range who can team with you when you're playing. So you take the teams you get offered as an MC, not the ones you want to be on.
2) The lvl spread will force you to exempt or SK someone - usually outside your range. One of you - will not get the pts you deserve if you play your hardest.
3) It really hasn't stopped power leveling in the least - I still see swarms of lower levels in PI, and the Ferry from Talos to PI is still packed with even level 1s standing around going "Hey buddy can you spare a level???".
They may be happy with the changes - but what this has done to teaming is damage that will continue for a long time. My SG is having serious issues because the new people we bring in ... can't play with the more experienced ones, can't learn squat from them - without being penalized.
I'm sorry the answer was to put a level barrier on the upper zones ... not mess with the XP system. It would have been easier to implement and not affected so many people.
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Thus the solution for now is to PL until you can solo, then solo whenever possible. Personally I no longer do AV missions since I can't solo them. This apparenlty makes the devs happy.
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Thus the solution for now is to PL until you can solo, then solo whenever possible. Personally I no longer do AV missions since I can't solo them. This apparenlty makes the devs happy.
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Only devs were meant to Solo AVs
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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".
Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.
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Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.
Those are just off the top of my head.
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Let's see, add the roll-back on the boss changes after I3 and making Unyielding Stance no longer root you in place. Oh, and while some people don't like suppression, even more didn't like the ACC debuff they put in with I4 so they changed it (Yes, this is still being debated but the fact is that more people disliked the -ACC so they changed it). I believe making the end drain done by Defenders more than that of Blasters was also a response to a need brought up by the community.
Also the TF exemplar that is in test now is the result of repeated calls for a "flashback" option to let people play missions they outleveled.
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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".
Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.
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Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.
Those are just off the top of my head.
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I can't find any of those that didn't get datamined to the devs satisfaction first before the change. So at best the change was made after players called attention to something that wasn't working as the devs intended.
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Are you saying that if someone complains, they ought to make changes without investigating the problem? Datamining is a way of looking at the problem, and verifying that one actually exists. Our input helps them determine how to mine the data, and what kind of problems to look for.
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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".
Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.
Those are just off the top of my head.
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Let's see, add the roll-back on the boss changes after I3 and making Unyielding Stance no longer root you in place. Oh, and while some people don't like suppression, even more didn't like the ACC debuff they put in with I4 so they changed it (Yes, this is still being debated but the fact is that more people disliked the -ACC so they changed it). I believe making the end drain done by Defenders more than that of Blasters was also a response to a need brought up by the community.
Also the TF exemplar that is in test now is the result of repeated calls for a "flashback" option to let people play missions they outleveled.
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I forget where but I read one of the devs state that the -acc on the travel powers screwed up PvP- which is why it was removed. Stateman stated somewhere on the forum that the boss changes were rolled back AFTER it went live and the datamined numbers came back. If the devs were listening to complaints it wouldn't have left the test server. Statesman made it explicit in this this post that they explicitly do not use complaints as a basis for making a change. At best the "opinions" are simply a basis for looking at the data. If they were listened to feedback I4 wouldn't have gone live in the condition it did.
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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".
Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.
Those are just off the top of my head.
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I can't find any of those that didn't get datamined to the devs satisfaction first before the change. So at best the change was made after players called attention to something that wasn't working as the devs intended.
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Are you saying that if someone complains, they ought to make changes without investigating the problem? Datamining is a way of looking at the problem, and verifying that one actually exists. Our input helps them determine how to mine the data, and what kind of problems to look for.
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One would think a test server would help in that regard but now we know that it's just a codebase test. They should datamine to verify the problem, but, it comes down to the mindset. If the goal is to make the players happy and the game more fun, then you can't just turn around and say "yeah we see what you're complaining about but that's working as intended" (burn patch comes to mind). I think the devs are more inclined to follow their vision rather than make the game more fun. I think you can see that evident in I4.
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I forget where but I read one of the devs state that the -acc on the travel powers screwed up PvP- which is why it was removed.
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Statesman's own post on the change specifically refered to the feel of play, not PvP. He was clear that the roll back was due to the impact on fun it was having. You should be able to find it by going to the official thread.
As to datamining vs opinion, player feedback is an indicator to an issue, datamining is done to confrirm or refute the problem and to identify specific mechanics involved. That they do fact checking to verify player concerns doesn't mean they are not acting as a result of those concerns. I can't imagine anyone in any professional field that wouldn't want to gather as much data as possible on an issue before trying to resolve it.
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Thus the solution for now is to PL until you can solo, then solo whenever possible. Personally I no longer do AV missions since I can't solo them. This apparenlty makes the devs happy.
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Umm... so my solution is to not play the game but let someone else PL me so I can miss all the lvls and content that I'm paying $15 a month for??
rrrRRRRRrrrrrriiiiggghhhhhttt....
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I forget where but I read one of the devs state that the -acc on the travel powers screwed up PvP- which is why it was removed.
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Statesman's own post on the change specifically refered to the feel of play, not PvP. He was clear that the roll back was due to the impact on fun it was having. You should be able to find it by going to the official thread.
As to datamining vs opinion, player feedback is an indicator to an issue, datamining is done to confrirm or refute the problem and to identify specific mechanics involved. That they do fact checking to verify player concerns doesn't mean they are not acting as a result of those concerns. I can't imagine anyone in any professional field that wouldn't want to gather as much data as possible on an issue before trying to resolve it.
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Thanks for the tip on who posted about the -acc debuff- here is the link.
I think this quote from the post says it all "Yes, the Accuracy debuff is unpopular (as most power tweaks or nerfs are perceived), but it doesn't cripple the game. I didn't think that this single problem should derail our publishing process."
If fun was the overriding concern, than anything that is KNOWN not to add to the enjoyment of the game should have been dropped (saying that it is Ok because it didn't cripple the game- I'm stunned- especially when they decide when to ship!!). This clearly is not the overriding concern.
So how did they know it was not fun- players told them during the test phase before it was released. So if you know it was not going to be well recieved, and release it anyway, then undo it, what was the motivation. Clearly it wasn't player opinion, that changed the decision- cause that was already given. That only leaves datamining. Of course datamining should be done to determine the mechanics involved, and as a confirmation of a problem. But, as I have explained, datamining seems to be the deciding factor rather than additional evidence of an already known problem.
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Thus the solution for now is to PL until you can solo, then solo whenever possible. Personally I no longer do AV missions since I can't solo them. This apparenlty makes the devs happy.
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Umm... so my solution is to not play the game but let someone else PL me so I can miss all the lvls and content that I'm paying $15 a month for??
rrrRRRRRrrrrrriiiiggghhhhhttt....
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By all means do the content of you haven't seen it before and/or enjoy it. The XP range has absolutely no impact on either enjoyng or distracting from the content. It has to do with the overall gameplay and "fun" factor- which is what I enjoyed the most.
Re-read the post you quoted from and think of it this way. At some point however, you will think the game is grinding. Prior to the xp leash, the solution was to team up and hunt, and maybe meet some folks you might want to team up with in the future. Now if you want the same rapid swing in Xp you have to PL-(and if you thought street sweeping was boring- PLing is snoozapalooza- but at least you are thru boring levels without wasting time). AND if you want to get a much XP as you can, it's better to solo.
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Well aparently the devs have stoped listening or had a collectivl anurism, i mean, really, only xp if you do dmg, are they bloody daft? I thought they like defenders, then whey are they premelizing any AT that puts team suppor over direct dmg?
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Yep, I agree. I don't see how this can be considered unfair, especially with the "anywhere on mission map" caveat. Then again, I don't powerlevel.
*Sigh*
It's not the Devs that had the "anurism".
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Statesman: If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has [been] dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
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How can you say a support AT is being "penalized" for not doing damage? You ain't supporting you team much if you are back 300 feet munching on Cheetos.
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ready the very first page of this topic
Controler helps damg dealer fight mob
face plants
gets no xp because he /held/ the mob instead of attacking it
very first page
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM