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It is nerfing the fun for SOME... PLing is hurting NONE!
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Actually it's theoretically hurting sales/service fee revenue for the game. The sooner you finish, the less likely you are to come back or keep logging in until new content hits the servers.
And sure, a lot of accounts went offline after I4 (not necessarily cancelled, but definitely neglected) since there was very little new content for the non PvP player, but just as many accounts are coming back online in anticipation of CoV. Keep in mind, CoH is only a year old. EQ has had 7 years to build up it's in-game content to a diverse metric that'll keep everybody entertained (which now includes 2-3 regular off/on-the-shelf expansion packs a year as customer-interest maintenance). Give CoH a chance to get up on it's feet - or isn't it possible that we've become too spoiled by other games to give this one a chance?
PvP isn't about PL'ing, which is probably why I4 didn't do so hot (never mind the numerous bugs). If PL'ing is your career thrill, you got your kicks now ride it out on Route 66 (Star Wars: Galaxies, EQ, etc have a plethora of PL'ing opportunities for you).
What else can anybody tell you? 
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Totally agree. I may not stay if I5 sucks like I4 did.
ie need more outfits, less clipping, and body tats that you can specify different locations of tat on body. And yet, still NO TRENCH COATS ????
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Ah! But the newest costume options weren't designed in mind of the average American/European COH player. They were designed to attract the Korean investor/player base. Take another look at the COV trailer and ask yourself who *is* that Asian hero over Statesman's shoulder that we've never seen before yet features so prominently here.
A more cautious observer might venture a guess that NCSoft/COH is setting up for Korean investors to buy out the franchise. Others might attribute the sudden "Asian" fever sweeping the game's PR and avatar model options to attract a larger Korean playbase (thereby floating more money into COH revenue directly rather than NCSoft generally).
Stateman has made a point of saying that there won't be any new costume options for COH for the forseeable future - so how else would you justify a slew of anime costume options nobody asked for? There were plently of other costume genres to go by but most of those went to the NPC's rather than the players (which honestly doesn't say much). There might be some neato costume options in CoV but we won't know until beta testing who fares better - the NPC's or the players?
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Simply remove the incentive to level at all, and you make the content - not levelling - the reason for playing the game.
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Do that and you eliminate all incentive to even play the game.
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Obviously the devs feel as you do: the content alone (despite the fact that they call it "great content") is not enough to keep people engaged in the game.
So levelling is the carrot and nerfing is the stick and all the devs care about is how much money they can milk from the cattle that pay to play this "nerfed-up" mess.
As to the rest of your post, I won't even dignify it with a response. I'm posting from the second of two accounts that have either expired or will shortly, and don't plan on renewing unless the devs put the fun back in the game.
Maybe they'll replace me with another sucker, maybe not. But I'm not going to pay to play a "grind-fest" anymore, and that's precisely what this "game" with the release of I4 has become.
YMMV.
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But I'm not going to pay to play a "grind-fest" anymore, and that's precisely what this "game" with the release of I4 has become.
YMMV.
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A grind fest is right. At least after level 40 ish. Have I PLed? sure.. not often. None at all before level 44. Not really a need before level 40. You gain enough xp to level pretty regularly. After 40 though.... let the grind fest begin. This is where people get bored.. this is where people loose interest. People should be allowed to reach that goal of 50 in a reasonable amount of time. If the carrot is the level.. by the time you get close to 50, that carrot is old, dried up and rotten. I am not saying that players should level thier characters from level 1 however, if that is how they want to play .. cool.
If you think people will leave once they hit 50, i think that you are wrong. Reason being, with all of the epic AT out now and being released (kheldian, corlax, avian, etc...) people will remain for a long time. They will remain just so long as they can have FUN playing the game. Playing the game they way that they want. As long as no one is imposing anything upon anyone else, who cares what they do. Let the game be enjoyable for everyone. Keep it enjoyable and people will not only stay, but they will bring friends.. and THEY will bring friends! and that means money!
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Why do people constantly try to change things because in thier ideal it is wrong despite that a large number of people enjoy things as they are.
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I know why. I'll explain it here, again.
See, there is this quasi-relevant argument that PL'ing is Bad, because it causes people to "finish" the game, and quit. Of course, this causes the game to lose revenue, go under, and then noone can play it.
This seems reasonable if you don't think about it too hard, and a lot of otherwise smart people start to believe it and then you have the situation that we are in now.
I thought about it for a time, and I realized that this is wrong for a number of reasons. Not only is it wrong, stopping PLing hurts the game in the here and now, as opposed to the "maybe future".
But let's start at the beginning. There are two kinds of PLers, I'll creatively label them "type 1" and "type 2".
Type 1 PL'ers play the game to 50 in half as many days, get bored, and quit before thier first month is fully up. These people are cheating themselves, sure. They are not cheating the rest of us, since they don't count as continuing revenue in the first place.
Type 2 PL'ers have played since Beta and have a neat new hero they want to try. The power they want to try/test is a level 32 one. They PL to 32 and then go on thier merry way, playing the game like everyone else. They don't hurt anything, in fact they help a lot of people in a lot of ways, we'll come back to them later.
So we've determined that PL'ing doesn't ruin revenue. The game will go on whether or not PL'ing happens (and it will happen).
People then say "But I Got On a Sucky Team, PL'er's Suck!". OK, I'll shoot that argument down, too.
Type 1 PL'ers aren't playing long enough to affect a lot of teams. They get bored and quit.
Type 2 PL'ers know all about how the game works, and are typically an asset to a team.
"Regular" players are free to solo way too much and not learn team play, just like PL'ers. Really, if you get on a bad team, Quit, or Kick the offending player. Life's too short to project the failing of that 3 hours a week Fire/Fire blaster onto the entire PL'ing community. People fail to learn how to play at many different leveling speeds. 
Ok, Scott, how does it hurt the game? I'm glad you asked! Well, I could go on and on, but I won't. I'll be blunt about it. There are two main reasons why attempts at stopping PL'ing is bad.
First, if PL'ing is harmed signifigantly, Type 2 people will quit. None of this nonsense about running out of content, (which I still haven't done even though I've been playing since, oh, last May with 6 heroes above 30, and 15 above 20) applies at all. Maybe some people will get bored in the future, assuming no new content is added. But that's neither here nor there. Type 2 PL'ers who need to start yet another level 1 toon to try something quit right now. No predictions about it!
Second, even if you don't PL at all, the feeble attempts to stop PL'ing are annoying everyone else, and not doing much about the problem. You have no idea how happy I am that the attempts are feeble! Imagine if the Devs really cracked down! They could simply cap XP/hour for all players, wouldn't that be fun?
No, we just have to deal with anyone running to the store, or leveling up, or getting a mission, not getting XP on a hunting team. For the "slow" people, I'll point out that hunting teams aren't good XP, and not powergaming. But the Devs think this will help, somehow, so we all need to deal with it.
I'm sure someone will think I'm wrong, but I can't imagine how telling people how to play in exchange for, er, not really solving the "phantom menace" of powerleveling could possibly be a good thing.
I'll leave other possible problems, like wasted Dev time, and why altering XP gains "tell people how to play", for the inevitable follow-up posts.
Thanks for reading!
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Obviously the devs feel as you do: the content alone (despite the fact that they call it "great content") is not enough to keep people engaged in the game.
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*chuckle* ... the devs and I hardly see eye to eye on this, and to be honest I'm in full agreement that the game has become a grindfest.
That said, I don't agree with powerleveling as a way to side-step the monotony. I want to see this game work as it should - fun in every regard whether it's PvE, PvP, or PvS(elf) in terms of a skillset system.
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So levelling is the carrot and nerfing is the stick and all the devs care about is how much money they can milk from the cattle that pay to play this "nerfed-up" mess.
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Yes and no.
First off, just because I've tried to objectively identify the business sense involved behind the game mechanics (and this is a business investment meant to return profit revenue regardless of the best of intentions - which means its unfair to attribute the fiscal focus on the devs alone as I'm sure it comes from a higher CEO directive), that doesn't mean I hold the same official viewpoint as the devs (assuming there is one view). See my post elsewhere to Statesman demanding an explanation for the now-indefinitely delayed skillset system (which was quietly announced in the buried pages of a thread), and his response in kind. Talk about poor follow-up that required pulling teeth to get the full story. That said he ultimately did respond in full, and I ate crow - but happily and appreciatively in light of getting an informed response.
This game model would work best with maintained stability built into 3 *critical* gameplay structures inherently important to keeping any rpg'er (casual or PL'er) happy:
Player Versus Environment (Streetsweeping and Missions)
Player Versus Player (The Arenas)
Player Versus Self (Skillset System)
To be honest, I think the dev team is spending/wasting way too much time on balancing out the XP reward when they should be working to balance out the game's basic 3-tier shell structure, thereby laying better groundwork for future layers of content.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I do question the priorities being set forth here (look at the Shadow Shard, great idea but a slew of bugs which has managed to alienate the very playerbase it was meant to entertain - and no one's done a thing to balance it out because they're too busy working on how many feet players need to be within in each other to earn xp on a defeat so no one can PL (which makes absolutely no sense when there's no real end-game reward to PL towards) and other useless nerfs.
I'm not sure whether this is do in part to higher directives ordering the pacing of "buyable" game-time be slowed down, work-time constraints, money, lacking qualifications/availability of the hired help, or just sheer laziness to take the easy way/fix out but the plethora of unresolved bugs with each succeeding issue is disturbing. The troubles of the Shadow Shard symbolizes the overall fault of the game - great idea, flawed execution and *lousy* follow-through.
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As to the rest of your post, I won't even dignify it with a response. I'm posting from the second of two accounts that have either expired or will shortly, and don't plan on renewing unless the devs put the fun back in the game.
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So in other words, you used two accounts to powerlevel yourself to the higher levels. Congratulations. I've only had the one account and took the long road up. Sure it's been a pain in certain places but I'm proud of the fact that I didn't have to "cheat the system" as it were just to feel on top of my game. I'm sorry, but I just don't have as much sympathy for you than I do the other "newbs" like me who have been playing since Day 1 with just the one account (and that's not to say one can't PL w/ one account cause they can).
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Maybe they'll replace me with another sucker, maybe not. But I'm not going to pay to play a "grind-fest" anymore, and that's precisely what this "game" with the release of I4 has become.
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PT Barnum said it best: there's a sucker born every minute. That said, even Barnum initially had the best of intentions with regard to presenting fine entertainment but the man never forgot he had to make a living at the end of the day to put food on the table and clothes on his back. I think Statesman and devs have the *best* of intentions when initially conceiving and implementing this game (they're as much fans of the genre as we are, after all) but sometimes background corporate initiatives, legalities, etc take prevalence over the best laid plans and honest intentions. As much as I disagree with the Devs, I am impressed by how responsive they are. That goes a long way in customer appreciation - but getting those bugs fixed would go a lot further.
Quite franky, I don't blame anyone for skipping out on the grindfest, but I'd rather the devs spend time on fixing the overall game mechanics and cleaning up the open-ended bugs popping up here or there than trying to nerf or improve anyone's chances to powerlevel in a game as highly bugged as this.
ALL HAIL THE GREAT SCOTT!!
Thank you for putting so elloquently what I have failed to do my last few posts... plus some. Everything that you have said makes perfect sence...
And I would love to hear your views on your latter mentioned subject matter :wasted Dev time, and why altering XP gains "tell people how to play"
Thanks again GS!
If the game mechanics were correct, there would not be a need to PL in the first place. We all would be content with the leveling rate. however, there are the exceptions that GS brought up in the privious post. Things like trying out new powers, etc.
The following happened to me recently, and pointed out to me very quickly how bad P/L was for a team as a whole:
I was on a team doing a number of missions. It was a pickup team and I was not leader. As we went through some A/V missions in PI, my mission with Tyrant came up. Tyrant is a difficult A/V, not Diabolique, not Mother Mayhem, but very difficult none the less.
The leader decided to invite some people over a 5 minutes span, and I walked away while he was recruiting. When I returned, I saw that we had gained a warshade and a blaster, both Side Kicked to higher levels. Running down the list on the green bars in the team window showed everyone in the 45-50 range. With a team of 8 we enter the mission.
During the fight, the warshade does almost nothing. The blaster never fires her nova blast. I begin to wonder. It is not a big deal, since the rest of the mobs are goign down ok, but some battles (on inv) are taking 10 minutes. With 8 level 45-50's it should not take 10 minutes.
So, I realize that I can right click on the chars and read info, and lo and behold, the warshade is level 7 and the blaster is level 31 . The leader had invited a couple of his SG friends onto a high level mission to P/L. What did it mean? When we fought Tyrant, the warshade and blaster had not had enough enhancement slots to boost accuracy significantly and were missing a lot. Their damage may have scaled, but they had no high level powers to do significant damage through! The Blaster did not have his high damage nova blast, the Warshade was simply standing either across the room, or somewhat nearby with those whirling black ring of dots (I don't know the power). Both were just about useless.
The end result? a) Our scrapper went down 4 times, piling up debt. b) Our HEALER when down over and over becuase the battle lasted FAR longer than it should have, and she had to concentrate on Rezzing and healing, not buffing and debuffing.. c) We could not do enough damage to hurt Tyrant down to even 60%. d) We left the mission uncompleted after beating on Tyrant for 20 minutes and without A/V or mission xp.
(I came back later with a very similar lineup of A/T's but all between 45 and 50 and took out Tyrant in under a minute)
Yes, I know to check "info" now to see actual levels (although it does seem like this is in place only to hide the low level people from immediate inspection), and I don't invite people to my teams who cannot contribute, and are only sucking up xp, BUT, you cannot always do that. You join other teams to work on a number of missions, you round-robin missions to cover a number of folks, and you can ingore the requests, but in PI, you get them repeatedly around 42-45. They are very annoying. They do not read your team message about "not accepting bridging". I would LOVE to see a level restriction on PI to keep low levels from popping up in your missions, and sitting and doing nothing.
The fact that mission distance is infinite is important in buildings, most outdoor missions, and so on for regular missions, but all the P/L requests I saw generally came from Warwolf herders or Freakshow herders in instanced missions. There was no restriction on distance in there, and therefore, no impact from this change.
I know firsthand how hard a controller is to level. I know the level grind, especially from about 24-38 is very hard for some A/T's. A couple of musings on improvements any or all in combination:
<ul type="square">[*]The overall range for a group could be constricted so that everyone has to be within 12 levels to get xp, s'/k or not[*]The level range could shrink after level 40, because you have to wind up playing your character SOMETIME[*]Maybe the missions could have minimum levels or level ranges. [*]Doing the same mission over and over and over yeilds less and less xp until you reach 0. After all, if this is experience how much additional should you get when you know how to clear out a mission already or fight the same enemies repeatedly?[/list]
I don't care what starting hero you are, facing a level 50 Infernal A/V when you are level 5, sidekicked or not, and your best power is "create underwear stains"
Quite honestly, that is not the result of PLing... but the result of a bad decision made by your team captain. They should have known better than to place the rest of the team at risk. The team captain knew what level they were when they were invited. Captains fault... not that of PLing.
Wow, that's a great story about how things can just go wrong.
Why didn't you quit?
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Kudos to you, oh mighty Statesman. Those changes will help gameplay and I look forward to them being implemented on the Test Server as soon as they are ready.
I do feel, however, that there is a small problem with mission reward xp. I occassionally get invited to team with someone who is in the middle or close to the end of a mission and when it is all over, I don't get mission xp/infl at the end because I wasn't there long enough. I know that it is a small problem, and problem done to prevent PL'ing by having friends do the grunt work and then you come in at the end and claim a reward for finishing a misison that you didn't really work for in the first place. But, as I do play primarily a Tank most of the time, and I'm usually called in when the last mission is a room full of Freakshow/Council/DE's, etc., and I have to bear the brunt of their aggro, I personally feel that a small mission reward would be nice, not a huge bonus but something that says thank you for helping out and pulling your weight. I know that we do get xp for the enemies that get taken down, but when I get an invite and don't know what the situation is beforehand, I jump into the mission and then its over before I know it and I don't earn any kind of reward for helping out, filling in that much needed tank position the team needed. I occasionally, when I remember to, give some influence to folks that didn't get any reward xp, even if it wasn't my mission, because I feel that they have helped out, even if it was brief.
But, that's all on that subject. On a off-topic subject however, you, CuppaJo and the others need to tell us about your E3 experience this year, and I want all the details. And I want to know about the rumors about you, Lord Recluse and Manticore dancing on the bar in your smashing tights and with matching lampshades to boot --
Yes, bad call by the leader, but his intention WAS to P/L the warshade and blaster. He knew what he was doing, they were SG members with him. I am sure he knew that even if the mission was not completely finished, just as if it was the Dreck mission or Warwolves, that the P/L objective would be done.
The results were:
Two 45+ chars got lots and lots of debt, not uncommon, not even new, but debt.
The warshade only got benefit while harming the rest of the team, he leveled once, and based on the mobs size, probably got close again. He did not contribute, yet received reward
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# The overall range for a group could be constricted so that everyone has to be within 12 levels to get xp, s'/k or not
# The level range could shrink after level 40, because you have to wind up playing your character SOMETIME
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Speaking as an altoholic, I desperately hate even the thought of either of these ideas. The ability to sidekick up with whomever I like allows me, the altoholic, to hang out with my friends who like to focus on one or two characters and still have fun. It's also what allows my supergroup (now my coalition) to remain coherent. Sidekicking is this game's great innovation. Let's just leave it alone, shall we?
Perhaps my problem is that simply don't get this fixation on who's earning how much XP by doing what. I just play this game for fun, and I am therefore less than willing to sacrifice my fun to curtail someone else's XP follies. It feels like some people treat this game like it's a job and they just found out the guy in the next cubicle has a higher salary.
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Type 2 PL'ers have played since Beta and have a neat new hero they want to try. The power they want to try/test is a level 32 one. They PL to 32 and then go on thier merry way, playing the game like everyone else. They don't hurt anything, in fact they help a lot of people in a lot of ways, we'll come back to them later.
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I happen to agree with the above quote, but perhaps P/L'ing to level 32 just to try a build is the wrong way to do so. Put in a Virtual Reality station with SimStim (TM) technology so that for a modest amount of influence, your hero can jack himself into a VR station that presents an instanced mission, with an archetype and level selected to "play". Not to go all "13th floor" on this, but the sim within the game would allow those players who have played enough to earn some influence an opportunity to try out other builds, other powers, and even possibly, a quicker respec test environment. This might ammeliorate some of your type 2 players from leaving, and might actually make some players more dedicated to a "nerfed build" knowing what they are capable of in the future.
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Type 2 PL'ers have played since Beta and have a neat new hero they want to try. The power they want to try/test is a level 32 one. They PL to 32 and then go on thier merry way, playing the game like everyone else. They don't hurt anything, in fact they help a lot of people in a lot of ways, we'll come back to them later.
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I happen to agree with the above quote, but perhaps P/L'ing to level 32 just to try a build is the wrong way to do so. Put in a Virtual Reality station with SimStim (TM) technology so that for a modest amount of influence, your hero can jack himself into a VR station that presents an instanced mission, with an archetype and level selected to "play". Not to go all "13th floor" on this, but the sim within the game would allow those players who have played enough to earn some influence an opportunity to try out other builds, other powers, and even possibly, a quicker respec test environment. This might ammeliorate some of your type 2 players from leaving, and might actually make some players more dedicated to a "nerfed build" knowing what they are capable of in the future.
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Now that is a good idea!
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Yes, bad call by the leader, but his intention WAS to P/L the warshade and blaster. He knew what he was doing, they were SG members with him. I am sure he knew that even if the mission was not completely finished, just as if it was the Dreck mission or Warwolves, that the P/L objective would be done.
The results were:
Two 45+ chars got lots and lots of debt, not uncommon, not even new, but debt.
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And if you were opposed to how things were going- what was your response? You apparenlty neither quit nor voiced your concern to the team leader.
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The warshade only got benefit while harming the rest of the team, he leveled once, and based on the mobs size, probably got close again. He did not contribute, yet received reward
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You said previously that he did use his powers to attack. It seems like what you are saying is that you don't like sidekicking. You may not have liked his contributions, which were to increase mob size and help beat mobs, but in fact you say i na prior post that he did contribute. The only "harm" the rest of the team endured was in having a teammate that, by your own account, didn't want to be there, and yet still hung around to work the mobs and get the XP.
I don't consider sidekicking PLing although I can see how some would view it that way.
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When large portions of your subscribers skip everything under level 40, why bother making more content for the lower levels?
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Because with the exemplar feature (or better yet, flashback or content with an auto-exemplar feature), all new content is available to high levels as well.
I would like to have a new level 50 trial. But a level 14-20 Faultline trial would be almost as good...it would still give my 50s something to do.
Hmm, this thread is getting off topic. I don't think the XP range changes have made much of an impact on live, positive or negative. There's no one standing at the trams leveling up (real PLing takes place in missions, just like it always has), but on TFs with outdoor hunt missions I get screwed out of some XP. Not much difference really.
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Pardon my devil's advocate here.
OK, I've done the content from the lower levels. I'm 50 and I'm bored beating Hamidon all day.
More content please!
Multiply this by a good chunk, and you start getting problems. Exemplaring or not, people want to advance. To use the fullest abilities available to their character. To expand those abilities.
Once you're there at the top, coming down isn't something you want to do 24-7, is it? Nah. So you ask for higher level content to match your level. Shadow Shard respecs. More epic encounters. And so on.
It's good to have lots on the way, but PLing means people's desires for content is based on what their current, pumped up levels will be....not what's below them. As you said- you'd rather have level 50 content than level 15 content.
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This is based on the faulty assumption that the lvl 50 mission is somehow superior to the level 15 mission. If it was there wouldn't be a call for the "flashback" option.
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Well, if people are cheerfully skipping those levels and content with PLing, you'll have plenty more company soon. Flashbacks and exemplaring are wonderful things, but in most cases, people leveling through a PL are trying to skip those in order to hit the "good stuff", which they equate to as high a level content as they can experience. They want to be "uber", and do the "uber" stuff.
[/ QUOTE ] the only "uber" thing in this game is hamidon- and where the only uber loot is ( hami-os)[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'd be happy to see low-level mobs all over high level zones, sniper-perception and range, ready to fill under-leveled newbies in PI or FF or Bricks full of lead. I'd like to see SK'ed players leveled up to the point of not being able to bridge +9 arrests.
Maybe then an "exp range" wouldn't be considered needed. It's explicitly put in the game to act as an obstacle to PLing, and if there's a better solution, perhaps the leash shouldn't be there.
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If this was put in to stop PLing, it is about as effective as the bug on my windshield was at slowing down my car (which is to say, none at all). But like the bug on my windshield, its an unneeded annoyance.
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It's good to have lots on the way, but PLing means people's desires for content is based on what their current, pumped up levels will be....not what's below them. As you said- you'd rather have level 50 content than level 15 content.
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This is based on the faulty assumption that the lvl 50 mission is somehow superior to the level 15 mission. If it was there wouldn't be a call for the "flashback" option.
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Most of the folks I see looking for lower-level missions are doing it to complete accolades/get badges and the like. The "good stuff" to most folks is looking ahead, not behind.
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Well, if people are cheerfully skipping those levels and content with PLing, you'll have plenty more company soon. Flashbacks and exemplaring are wonderful things, but in most cases, people leveling through a PL are trying to skip those in order to hit the "good stuff", which they equate to as high a level content as they can experience. They want to be "uber", and do the "uber" stuff.
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the only "uber" thing in this game is hamidon- and where the only uber loot is ( hami-os)
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Yep. Part of why I find people PLing to 50 as fast as they can to be silly- but hey, that's my opinion. YMMV.
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Personally, I'd be happy to see low-level mobs all over high level zones, sniper-perception and range, ready to fill under-leveled newbies in PI or FF or Bricks full of lead. I'd like to see SK'ed players leveled up to the point of not being able to bridge +9 arrests.
Maybe then an "exp range" wouldn't be considered needed. It's explicitly put in the game to act as an obstacle to PLing, and if there's a better solution, perhaps the leash shouldn't be there.
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If this was put in to stop PLing, it is about as effective as the bug on my windshield was at slowing down my car (which is to say, none at all). But like the bug on my windshield, its an unneeded annoyance.
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I agree. That's why I'd like to see other options instead. The issue seems to be that in whatever way you want to look at it, Statesman feels that people are finding a way to gain exp at a rate no hero that level naturally would, usually by bypassing part of the game entirely without any risk to their gains.
The "leash" is an annoying attempt to check part of this, whatever it's successes are. I want to find ways to attack the root of what the devs find problematic. To me, PLing is a symptom of a lethal disease in an MMORPG- if untreated, the game suffers and dies. I enjoy CoH. I don't want it to become a victim of PLing, even if PLing will always exist to an extent. People will always find ways to enhance their character growth. I don't want that turning into a cancer. Cancers are unchecked and malignant things, after all. PLing should end up neither.
I like the idea of having hunters come after me in higher-level zones. Not only are these ways to point out a zone is designed for tougher heroes, but if I want a tougher challenge myself, I can hunt the hunters- if I'm tough enough myself. I like the idea of my SK being able to contribute well to any team, not feeling gimped because I'm barely high enough, and as a result, he isn't. That it prevents bridging to me is a great boon as well. Doing nothing to get +9 arrest exp isn't playing. It's sitting there drooling on your keyboard listening to the levels pile up and taking progressive screenshots of the "level up!" flashes.
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I agree. That's why I'd like to see other options instead. The issue seems to be that in whatever way you want to look at it, Statesman feels that people are finding a way to gain exp at a rate no hero that level naturally would, usually by bypassing part of the game entirely without any risk to their gains.
The "leash" is an annoying attempt to check part of this, whatever it's successes are. I want to find ways to attack the root of what the devs find problematic. To me, PLing is a symptom of a lethal disease in an MMORPG- if untreated, the game suffers and dies. I enjoy CoH. I don't want it to become a victim of PLing, even if PLing will always exist to an extent. People will always find ways to enhance their character growth. I don't want that turning into a cancer. Cancers are unchecked and malignant things, after all. PLing should end up neither.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. This post by Great_Scott is a good arguement why: #2925727 - 05/24/05 12:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of having hunters come after me in higher-level zones. Not only are these ways to point out a zone is designed for tougher heroes, but if I want a tougher challenge myself, I can hunt the hunters- if I'm tough enough myself.
[/ QUOTE ]I think we all would have liked to have seen new content in i4 but it wasn't slated to be- would that have helped the PL issue? Nope, but we got lots of nerfs!
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I like the idea of my SK being able to contribute well to any team, not feeling gimped because I'm barely high enough, and as a result, he isn't. That it prevents bridging to me is a great boon as well.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what you mean
[ QUOTE ]
Doing nothing to get +9 arrest exp isn't playing. It's sitting there drooling on your keyboard listening to the levels pile up and taking progressive screenshots of the "level up!" flashes.
[/ QUOTE ]So what? if that's what someone finds fun isn't that why they pay? I wonder if you understand the issue. No one I am aware of has said that PLing is the best way to play. The problem isn't that they are doing something about PLing, it's the fact that the Devs are now changing core rules in order to dictate how players play the game. It's as if you are playing checkers and, halfway through the game, about to triple jump your opponent and he says "Sorry you can't do that, that's too quick to beating me. No more triple jumps". If the game just came out, I could see something like this. It's been a year, so they can't say it was somehow missed in testing.
[ QUOTE ]
The "leash" is an annoying attempt to check part of this, whatever it's successes are. I want to find ways to attack the root of what the devs find problematic. To me, PLing is a symptom of a lethal disease in an MMORPG- if untreated, the game suffers and dies. I enjoy CoH. I don't want it to become a victim of PLing, even if PLing will always exist to an extent. People will always find ways to enhance their character growth. I don't want that turning into a cancer. Cancers are unchecked and malignant things, after all. PLing should end up neither.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. This post by Great_Scott is a good arguement why: #2925727 - 05/24/05 12:57 PM
[/ QUOTE ]
The "type 2" PL'er also damages the game. How, you ask does it do so? Let me explain.
If you have to level your character up without PLing, you not only gain experience playing it, but you ALSO improve the game of those you play with by example. Where is this needed most?
At the very self-same pre-32 levels you see "Type 2" players trying to avoid. Heck, you're a veteran player, you WILL level up faster. Even with bridging out of the picture, you can still sit there and suck up +9 level exp....if you're actually 9 levels below the mobs. You just can't sit there in PI at level 1 while someone bridges you to a Dreck mission.
Treat the disease. It's incurable- as many people have noted, PLing is impossible to eradicate. But powerleveling also steals something important from the game- having veterans mixed in with the newbies, trying new things and leading by example. Instead, we have those vets begging for PL's in Peregrine Island. That means each wave of new high-level players will be poorer in skill for having had to blunder their way to the top. I mean, look at what kind of massive flaws of a build we got courtesy of the ultimate PL event, Winter Lords. To a lesser extent, "Type 2" PLers are causing that today. All it takes is no longer caring about what happens in the early stages of the game.
Apathy leads to neglect. Neglect causes game quality to decline in the early levels. Poorer early game means fewer people come to play and stay. And new players are the lifeblood of an MMORPG. The less appealing that first experience becomes, the worse CoH becomes in turn.
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I think we all would have liked to have seen new content in i4 but it wasn't slated to be- would that have helped the PL issue? Nope, but we got lots of nerfs!
[/ QUOTE ]
We got an issue devoted to narrow content, and in a sense I think it wasn't an issue so much as it was the alpha testing for CoV. CoH certainly feels that way right now, with the crashy lag fun we're all getting to enjoy these days. :P
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I like the idea of my SK being able to contribute well to any team, not feeling gimped because I'm barely high enough, and as a result, he isn't. That it prevents bridging to me is a great boon as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean
[/ QUOTE ]
If I have to sidekick to a level 46 in a level 50 mission, I am level 45 (or worse, depending on level)under the current system. That means I am minimally able to deal with the mobs, who are even tougher to me than the +6 or worse they are to my mentor.
If SKing made my level relate to the top dog, that L50 leading the mission, I'm instead 49th or so- not quite as effective as a real one, but I'm certainly at a point where I can -actively- contribute to a team. In fact, the -worst- I could be is 46th.
I think we all agree that a level 46 player can reasonably contribute on a level 50 mission, right? Sidekicking this way would always make sidekicks a worthy level for the team, rather than a potential gimp-in-the-making if you're forced to SK to the low man on the level totem pole.
[ QUOTE ]
Doing nothing to get +9 arrest exp isn't playing. It's sitting there drooling on your keyboard listening to the levels pile up and taking progressive screenshots of the "level up!" flashes.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what? if that's what someone finds fun isn't that why they pay? I wonder if you understand the issue. No one I am aware of has said that PLing is the best way to play. The problem isn't that they are doing something about PLing, it's the fact that the Devs are now changing core rules in order to dictate how players play the game. It's as if you are playing checkers and, halfway through the game, about to triple jump your opponent and he says "Sorry you can't do that, that's too quick to beating me. No more triple jumps". If the game just came out, I could see something like this. It's been a year, so they can't say it was somehow missed in testing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Once upon a time, my EQ character would have been considered insane by someone who only played the first year. You can't go over level 50, nobody can! What's an "AA"?
Games change. Sometimes radically, but almost always due to players. If there is a change to PLing, it's part of the give and take any dev team has to do while building a game- which in MMORPG's is a constant. None remain truly stable, most end up with serious alterations to play.
And "because it is fun" isn't always a good argument. I've known people who consider training large numbers of monsters on people trying to play as "fun". It got changed.
After all, bad things can happen even if someone considers it fun and the game allows it. This leads to change.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "leash" is an annoying attempt to check part of this, whatever it's successes are. I want to find ways to attack the root of what the devs find problematic. To me, PLing is a symptom of a lethal disease in an MMORPG- if untreated, the game suffers and dies. I enjoy CoH. I don't want it to become a victim of PLing, even if PLing will always exist to an extent. People will always find ways to enhance their character growth. I don't want that turning into a cancer. Cancers are unchecked and malignant things, after all. PLing should end up neither.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. This post by Great_Scott is a good arguement why: #2925727 - 05/24/05 12:57 PM
[/ QUOTE ]
The "type 2" PL'er also damages the game. How, you ask does it do so? Let me explain.
If you have to level your character up without PLing, you not only gain experience playing it, but you ALSO improve the game of those you play with by example. Where is this needed most?
At the very self-same pre-32 levels you see "Type 2" players trying to avoid. Heck, you're a veteran player, you WILL level up faster. Even with bridging out of the picture, you can still sit there and suck up +9 level exp....if you're actually 9 levels below the mobs. You just can't sit there in PI at level 1 while someone bridges you to a Dreck mission.
[/ QUOTE ]
This still makes no sense- I think you are trying to say that players that already know how to play provide some sort of service by being an example to other players. To a slight extent I can see that - especially to members of your own SG ,but as far as strangers go, I think they would simply quit a crappy team rather than try to explain to the rest what they are doing wrong. If there are other points in there, I'm just not getting them.
[ QUOTE ]
Treat the disease. It's incurable- as many people have noted, PLing is impossible to eradicate. But powerleveling also steals something important from the game- having veterans mixed in with the newbies, trying new things and leading by example. Instead, we have those vets begging for PL's in Peregrine Island. That means each wave of new high-level players will be poorer in skill for having had to blunder their way to the top. I mean, look at what kind of massive flaws of a build we got courtesy of the ultimate PL event, Winter Lords. To a lesser extent, "Type 2" PLers are causing that today. All it takes is no longer caring about what happens in the early stages of the game.
[/ QUOTE ] so making a crappy char or playing poorly is OK as long as you endured a grind for a long time to make them? I think not. I think they are easier to absorb into the game, but crappy chars. are crappy chars. whether it takes 3 months or 2 weeks. Generally speaking, it's not the vets (who by that time have made some friends and have no need to beg) that are begging, it's newbies desperate that the game won't be as tedious if they get a few more powers.[ QUOTE ]
Apathy leads to neglect. Neglect causes game quality to decline in the early levels. Poorer early game means fewer people come to play and stay. And new players are the lifeblood of an MMORPG. The less appealing that first experience becomes, the worse CoH becomes in turn.
[/ QUOTE ]
exactly , when I started playing city of heroes I had a fun time. Forming a team was fun. In my day we had heroes with superpowers and it was fun to play a superhero. Little did I know that the game would evolve into avoiding the latest nerf or that (even though the included manual stated that some ATs were weaker than others) all the ATs would be "equalized" with the nerfbat[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we all would have liked to have seen new content in i4 but it wasn't slated to be- would that have helped the PL issue? Nope, but we got lots of nerfs!
[/ QUOTE ]
We got an issue devoted to narrow content, and in a sense I think it wasn't an issue so much as it was the alpha testing for CoV. CoH certainly feels that way right now, with the crashy lag fun we're all getting to enjoy these days. :P
[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of my SK being able to contribute well to any team, not feeling gimped because I'm barely high enough, and as a result, he isn't. That it prevents bridging to me is a great boon as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean
[/ QUOTE ]
If I have to sidekick to a level 46 in a level 50 mission, I am level 45 (or worse, depending on level)under the current system. That means I am minimally able to deal with the mobs, who are even tougher to me than the +6 or worse they are to my mentor.
If SKing made my level relate to the top dog, that L50 leading the mission, I'm instead 49th or so- not quite as effective as a real one, but I'm certainly at a point where I can -actively- contribute to a team. In fact, the -worst- I could be is 46th.
I think we all agree that a level 46 player can reasonably contribute on a level 50 mission, right? Sidekicking this way would always make sidekicks a worthy level for the team, rather than a potential gimp-in-the-making if you're forced to SK to the low man on the level totem pole.
[/ QUOTE ] Ahh so you want to vitually guarantee that no-one wants a high level char on the team since that will screw up all the SKs- Brilliant! So much for vets helping the newbies.
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Doing nothing to get +9 arrest exp isn't playing. It's sitting there drooling on your keyboard listening to the levels pile up and taking progressive screenshots of the "level up!" flashes.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what? if that's what someone finds fun isn't that why they pay? I wonder if you understand the issue. No one I am aware of has said that PLing is the best way to play. The problem isn't that they are doing something about PLing, it's the fact that the Devs are now changing core rules in order to dictate how players play the game. It's as if you are playing checkers and, halfway through the game, about to triple jump your opponent and he says "Sorry you can't do that, that's too quick to beating me. No more triple jumps". If the game just came out, I could see something like this. It's been a year, so they can't say it was somehow missed in testing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Once upon a time, my EQ character would have been considered insane by someone who only played the first year. You can't go over level 50, nobody can! What's an "AA"?
Games change. Sometimes radically, but almost always due to players. If there is a change to PLing, it's part of the give and take any dev team has to do while building a game- which in MMORPG's is a constant. None remain truly stable, most end up with serious alterations to play.
And "because it is fun" isn't always a good argument. I've known people who consider training large numbers of monsters on people trying to play as "fun". It got changed.
After all, bad things can happen even if someone considers it fun and the game allows it. This leads to change.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right- the actions you can do to other players should be regulated. The Devs have decided instead that the choices you make on how to play should be regulated. Next they'll be telling us which archtypes are "available" to play- after all you wouldn't want a game with too many scappers and not enough controllers. As far as games changing go- I'd be OK with it if didn't change just a few months ago!! The devs can't be dealing honestly with us if they tell us that it took you a year to figure out how to deal with XP! Unless there never was a real plan.
The challenge of game design is trying to create a world with an internal set of rules that draws you in to try to make sense of how they work. This change doesn't draw anyone in.
I made a post about this very thing a few pages back but it got lost in the shuffle apparently. So I will repost some of it here.
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I don't know if this thought has crossed the Devs minds or some of the die hard anti PL'ers minds before but this is just my feeling on the whole PL/no PL situation.
I have a friend who has played this game since June of last year. He plays almost as much as I do, but is more serious in his leveling approach. (IE, he doesn't switch to an alt every hour or so like me ) As a result, he has SEVERAL toons at lvl 50, 7 of them.
He has done all the TF's and trials (excluding the ones in the Shadow Shard) at least once, maybe not with the same character, but he has done them. By the time he had his 2nd lvl 50, he was getting tired of starting up new characters and having to go through the boring low levels again. He starts having more fun with the game once you get a travel power, around lvl 14 for most.
So, he got a 2nd account and started PL'ing alts up to bypass some of the low level drudgery.
Now for the big question. If PL'ing is so bad and makes it so the people who do PL hit 50 faster and then leave the game sooner, why is my friend still here playing the game and actually keeping his second account around giving MORE money back to the game?
I mean, he's hit 50 with 7 different characters! He's seen and done most of the content yet he's still here playing. Does it really matter if he PL'd to a level he felt comfortable playing at if he is still actually here PAYING FOR and PLAYING the game?
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If you are as dedicated to this game as my friend, but want to get to a certain point in the game for it to be FUN, what's the harm in it if you are still involved with the game. It's not like he's hacking the game or stealing someone elses account time. He plays the way he wants to play. And he pays to do it.
As far as the argument of "PL'ers making lousy teammates", since my friend has PLAYED so much, he makes a VERY good teammate. He knows what to do and when to do it. He knows when he's in over his head and will get the appropriate amount of help needed to finish a mission.
While not eveyone is as dedicated as my friend, (some more-so, others not-so much) why ruin anyones fun for the sake of doing away with something some people call "evil".
What is better, the devil we know (PL'ing) or the devil we don't know (possible future nerfs that end up killing this game)?
I say keep the PL'ing, if only to keep SOME of the people interested in the game.
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
It seems to me that the DEVS are so caught up in making the people who are pissed about silly things in the game happy, that they lose sight of those folks who are happy with the game the way it is. I mean honestly, what makes these people feel like they have to right to ruin the way someone lvls? This silliness goes back to like last october (yeah i was here) when some jerk said "Blasters are lvling to fast, they do too much damage". Why complain about something as silly as Powerlvling. If you want to complain about something, Complain about how much the council suck and that the Devs need to BRING BACK THE 5TH COLUMN. That is a legitimate complaint. For that matter complain that The friggin KRAKENS are in the medium to high lvl content and not DR. VHAZ. I personally would love to Shove a LRM up his A$$. Sorry for my ramble but seriously who cares how people get to 50. Maybe they just want to play the *AHEM* awesome khelds.
Just sayin.
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That is the bottom line. Getting people to stay.
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Totally agree. I may not stay if I5 sucks like I4 did.
ie need more outfits, less clipping, and body tats that you can specify different locations of tat on body. And yet, still NO TRENCH COATS ????
@blood