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Unfortunately, those who like to divide up and street sweep got caught in the crossfire. They aren't engaging in the type of behavior that the devs are trying to hinder
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But I say they are, just not to the extreme of those standing under the tram. The people that like to spread out in a team across a zone are getting all the benefits of teaming while not actually working as a team. As I keep saying, this is powerlevelling as well, though a lesser form. There's no reason you should get xp for someone's kill who is across the zone from you.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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This is what we feared. As people in other topics mentioned, this actually is worse XP than going solo. So the player is penalized XP-wise for splitting from the team. In other words, if you split the team into two teams to complete two tasks, you're actually getting LESS XP than if you created two SEPARATE teams to do the same thing.
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And the problem is? If you're not working together on the same fights, why should you get xp for them?
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Agreed. The point of this is to prevent people from getting XP for battles they do not actually participate in. If a team splits up to do separate tasks why should everyone get the experience for both missions? Each player is only fighting one battle, so why should they get the xp for two?
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They shouldn't. But on the other hand, if they aren't helping, and aren't getting XP, why should the XP that I receive include them when determining how many teammates to divide the XP between? If part of your team isn't getting XP because of the distance limitation, that part of the team shouldn't count when dividing the XP among the members of the team that do get XP.
This situation happens legitimately all the time. Let's say your group is at the mission location, and you've just zoned and are on your way to them. You stop to defeat a mob. Under the current system, the XP is divided amongst all of the team, even though you did all of the work. Under the new system, the XP is still divided among the entire team, but now only you get the XP. That is silly. XP shouldn't just go disappearing into thin air.
Bottom line: if you're not giving someone XP, don't count them in the XP division calculation. The rest of this system sounds perfectly reasonable.
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If they let you get "solo XP" when you are on a team but working alone, they actually HELP PLers rather than hurt them. Read fireclad's analysis in the other thread for details, but basicially, if they gave you "solo" or "duo" XP for your efforts when teamed with more people, you could bring a bridge in and experience no XP penalty for the bridger. That would actually help bridge teams PL FASTER!
Basically, under this implementation, if you are not in a mission and your team splits you get PENALIZED for that. So, if you're going to street hunt, you should only make a team large enough for the streets you're hunting. Making a larger team and splitting it is penalized. That's their intent as making a street sweeping team and splitting it is the PLing technique they want to harm.
As I've said before, I don't think this implementation is perfect. BUT I thought you deserved to be told why it is working as intended in the situation you note above.
If a player is in a zone, and did NO damage in a combat and has been dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
What if the fight lasts more then a minute and you are in a position that renders you unable to revive yourself? (Lets say you run in and the foe one shots you, we have all experienced this)
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Oh one odd thing when using a contact on an even surface to judge distance 66 yds was way further then when you have the tram targeted. same thing occured with mission doors.Kinda odd.
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Might have to do with elevation.
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
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Well..it's much better than before..but STOP TRYING TO STOP POWERLEVELERS! umm..please Don't get me wrong this is much better..but nobody really cares about powerlevelers..this is removing freedom from the game, and adding stress by making you be close to your team when hunting..then again usually you are close when hunting. Sometimes people hunt in spread up groups..but this is better than the other idea...
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You have to read this topic...
Power of Cheese
PLers need to be stopped, but not to the detriment of us non-PLers. Still, they MUST be dealt with as they DO negatively affect us. As smilinstupid said,
The Fast food analogy is right on, it just leaves out one part. Look at how many legitimate restaraunts are going out of business due to Fast food or other chains.
I give this as a word of warning. A lot of chains will find what they consider a vulnerable region, and they will go there and they will provide consumers with really low prices in the short term.
Local businesses are unable to compete. But the chain can run at a deficit because they have other restraunts in other regions that offset the costs, so the deficit is really an investment.
The local businesses go out of business. What happens to prices at the chain restaraunt? Don't be naive either, and assume this just happens in small towns or big cities, it happens everywhere. Wal-mart has been killing local economies for years. There are some municipalities that will not allow for "Super Wal-Marts" because they put grocery stores out of business.
Now I wouldn't say that Powerlevelers are going to ruin CoH, but they have a very negative impact on the game. For example, if you team with someone who has been powerleveled, you never know what you're getting out of them. Just because they have the powers doesn't mean they have any idea how to use them.
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A little off topic but, isnt what the people want is fast food? quick and convinent.
wasnt walmart a small business at one point? i mean it had to start somewhere too. Id go to wal-mart anyday over a local store, thus welcome to captialism
On topic, these changes are great states thanks for seeing the light!
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OK...So we are applauding them changing this to 300'???
THE IDEA STILL STINKS...
STOP SAYING THANK YOU, AND TELL THEM IT STILL STINKS!!!
Less XP is still less XP...
Don't make us grind...
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We're applauding them making it so that it doesn't affect missions (even train/portal missions with the very large outdoors maps).
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Not going to read all this....
What happens if the MOB runs?
Scrapper fighting MOB, Support/Blasters lets say 100 Ft back...
MOB is almost dead and gets hit with DOT and Runs/TP's/whatevers 210 ft the other direction from the Support and dies...now 310ft away.
In this case no one moved to follow it. Only the Scrapper gets XP/Credit....!??!
Much better system then original....but still...
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u realize that this really doesnt stop the power levelers.??
most power levelers heard the wolves into a single area its not hard to move the others to an area within the 300ft area.
seems like a lot of work for not.
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Those missions are timed now.
Howeve I really don't understand why the blinky hunt gives you more time than the one to kill Shadowhunter and blinky hunt. That makes no sense.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
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People that had the wolf missions before the timer was implemented still don't have a timer on it.
I agree the blinky mission giving more time than the AV+blinky is ridiculous.
And Statesman, can we PLEASE get a clarification on the death timer in missions. I can deal with it street hunting but 1 minute in missions would not be anywhere near enough time.
Having "everywhere in missions" means this will be pointless of a change to implement, as powerleveling in missions will simply continue. Well, unless the goal is to remove powerleveling from open zones, which might be nice in its own self.
Why not go to the "if you used any power that affected the npc, or took damage from the npc, or used a power on someone who had done damage to the npc, or did damage to the npc, and your team did the preponderance of damage to the npc" concept? or is it too hard to code it that way?
As it stands the "doing damage" requirement is not equitable between PCs, some of who have AE damage powers and some don't. This was already a problem with how xp is allocated between unteamed players fighting the same NPC; it doesn't need to be propagated onto teamed characters getting or not getting XP. If a PC contributed to the defeat, they should get XP, whether or not their contribution was in the form of damage.
So to sum up:
- everywhere in missions - exploitable and too much of a back down
- damage only - unfair
- death penalty - still too short. should be 4 mins minimum.
Dying once every 4 mins is enough to slow down powerleveling quite sufficiently if someone was trying the corpse-dragging exploit idea. or alternatively -
How about having all xp go to debt only if the person is getting xp while dead? that would prevent powerleveling but still be fair to those who legitimately died for the team. No timeout, just a change - dead get xp as if exemplared? (would change to inf when no debt just as exemplared)
Then make it that + the distance and no exceptions for having done damage, unless you also have exceptions for debuffing, holding, healing damage dealers, taunting, etc.
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Suggestion: How about you get full XP if you're doing a mission? In other words, Leader A sets kill 10 Council mission. Leader A and Teamie B spilt up and still get full XP because it's for a mission.
Personal Opinion: I have to give a huge "Meh." to the entire system, really. My particular irk is the fact that you made it so you get full XP on a mission...the thing is that missions were what most PLers were using in the first place (Wolves, Dreck, blah blah blah)! What I'm saying is that the system at its core focus, to stop powerleveling, is really weak. You're only really cutting down about (*made up statistic*) maybe 1/4-1/3 of powerleveling, and then hurting the sub-group of those who prefer to street hunt.
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In the end the xp range thing is a bad idea period, but this revision isn't as bad as the first.
This revision will cut down on lag and push people toward missions which is what the devs have attempted to do all along.
I do expect to see the following though.
1.) More blatant herding.
2.) Smaller teams hunting in zones.
3.) Controllers and Defenders getting shafted if this goes live without an adjustment.
A smaller number of people get shafted, but people still get shafted for playing legit. The only real way to solve the problem and not cause issues for legit players would be to have in game policing of it. You will never prevent powerleveling by game mechanics alone without hurting the feel of the game itself. If they do manage to come up with a system by using game mechanics then the game will be so different that most of the people that enjoy the game and play it now won't be playing it then.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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OK...So we are applauding them changing this to 300'???
THE IDEA STILL STINKS...
STOP SAYING THANK YOU, AND TELL THEM IT STILL STINKS!!!
Less XP is still less XP...
Don't make us grind...
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We're applauding them making it so that it doesn't affect missions (even train/portal missions with the very large outdoors maps).
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Exactly. I've already spoken about the whole idea in the last 100+ post thread. I think this is a waste of Dev resources and their time would be better served creating new content, then working on curbing the powerleveling problem.
There are businesses where ALL THEY DO is create high level characters as fast as they can for all MMOs out there in order to sell them, or sell the items, or sell fake in-game money in exchange for real life money. This method will not stop powerleveling, as people have said at least 100+ times already.
Having said that, it does my heart good to see that this Dev team actually does proper datamining and actually listens *gasp* to they're player base. Try to get Sony Online to listen to you and let me know how that goes. Cryptic could have easily blown us off an gone through with the change as-is. You have to give them some credit.
[edit: To clarify, all powerlevelers dont PL in order to sell stuff via ebay, however this does happen...a lot, and not just with this game.]
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The one minute death timer thing also hurts any team that doesn't have an empathy or radiation defender on their team.
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Dark has a full REZ as well
Still, I think they will have to consider making all rez's at least 1/2 str rez's post this change.
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So does the entire system not apply in missions? Or only the 300' range aspect?
If I die in a mission and am dead for longer than a minute, does that interfere with my xp?
I'm hoping the answer is no, and being inside a door mission is exempt from this system.
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I read it as the death timer being active in missions.
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OK, as I continue to follow this...
I like the suggestion that holds do 1 pt of damage. Or 0.01 pt. I don't care. As a scrapper and tank enthusiast, I like my targets still. The hold that stopped them is as valuable as my hit.
Make debuffs do 0.01 pt of damage per tick of time. See above.
Figure out a way to add that 0.01 pt damage to any mob hit by a buffed teammate. That's the hard code...tell me, though, that there aren't a thousand guys waiting to get a crack at coding something like that and get paid for it.
If what controllers and defenders are designed to do does not reap rewards, then 1) I will not play those ATs and 2) they will lose their effectiveness.
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If you are close enough to hold the mob, you're within 300 feet and will get your XP share, why the need for 0.01 dmg?
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Blaster is impatient and aggros group too soon with Fireball.
Blaster immediately dies.
Controller/Empath holds mob.
Remaining team continues fighting held mob.
Controller/Empath runs back to tp and rez Blaster.
(300 feet still isn't that far of a distance when a travel power is concerned.)
Controller/Empath rezzes Blaster.
Mob is killed off while controller is doing his thing.
Blaster gets xp due to his initial volley.
Controller gets jack for saving parties [censored] and rezzing teammate.
Fair? Absolutely not.
I have seen the above scenario happen so many times its insane. Though I didn't calculate distance, the general rez rule was out of visual range.
Put a tiny damage to controller holds and a tiny damage component from any buff that can be done in the game to credit the buffer and I think we have a viable solution.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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Having "everywhere in missions" means this will be pointless of a change to implement, as powerleveling in missions will simply continue. Well, unless the goal is to remove powerleveling from open zones, which might be nice in its own self.
Why not go to the "if you used any power that affected the npc, or took damage from the npc, or used a power on someone who had done damage to the npc, or did damage to the npc, and your team did the preponderance of damage to the npc" concept? or is it too hard to code it that way?
As it stands the "doing damage" requirement is not equitable between PCs, some of who have AE damage powers and some don't. This was already a problem with how xp is allocated between unteamed players fighting the same NPC; it doesn't need to be propagated onto teamed characters getting or not getting XP. If a PC contributed to the defeat, they should get XP, whether or not their contribution was in the form of damage.
So to sum up:
- everywhere in missions - exploitable and too much of a back down
- damage only - unfair
- death penalty - still too short. should be 4 mins minimum.
Dying once every 4 mins is enough to slow down powerleveling quite sufficiently if someone was trying the corpse-dragging exploit idea. or alternatively -
How about having all xp go to debt only if the person is getting xp while dead? that would prevent powerleveling but still be fair to those who legitimately died for the team. No timeout, just a change - dead get xp as if exemplared? (would change to inf when no debt just as exemplared)
Then make it that + the distance and no exceptions for having done damage, unless you also have exceptions for debuffing, holding, healing damage dealers, taunting, etc.
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I'm of the opinion that the whole effort in putting for th the measure is a waste of time in the first place. Be as stringent as you like, it's not going to stop Powerlevelers- a group of people who are:
A) A minority, and
B) Do not affect the game for the rest of us in any quanitifiable way.
SO what precisely is the point of employing a measure that will profoundly affect ALL of us in order to get at a small percentage of the playerbase that isn't hurting any of us in the first place?
Pointless.
It looks like the simple answer is, if you want to continue to play COH in the future, don't team for hunt missions, or don't play non-attack oriented ATs. Bye-bye controller, and defender for me. They are far too hard to solo or if you want a controller- just Pl them. It looks like the gigantic "don't do this" thread was pretty much ignored. I play COH because it's a fun game to play. This whole issue reminds me of the PnP GMs that make ridiculous rules or rulings because they players figured out a way to get past the "impossible" enemy. If this was a real problem, I'd be all for the solution. The only stated reason for this is that it somehow "devalues" the game. Odd because I'm still paying the same money. I play the game because it's a comic concept game. I want cool powers and villians to use them on. I could care less about how many points of damage a particular attack does except in a general way. Generally you can tell that from the animation (nova is not energy blast). The more it becomes an accounting game, the less likely I am to play it.
Re-Quote from the other thread
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Just to put a few starting points out there for my post...
1) Statesman, in his own post has already stated that this XP leash will not even be a guaranteed fix to the one type of PL it targets. BUT, it WILL certainly be a hindrance for EVERY other type of player out there in EVERY situation and tactic from level 1 to 50.
2) Also, the 'lost to the void' exp has been stated as a bug in review (in that exp which would normally have gone to teammates in the split now goes nowhere) so we can know that it is not meant for xp to be lost to those outside 200'.
So, as if roleplaying a time traveling AR/DEV blaster here to save your world, I will explain to you how this will IMPROVE things for PLers of the singular variety it is aimed at prohibiting (namely, street sweepers with a bridge and SK).
Place the hunter on whatever target he wishes, place the SKed character within 200' of the target, place the bridge 50' from the SK and in the opposite direction of the hunter. You can put the SK and bridge in any combination of distance (since SK range is 9 yards longer than the XP leash) as long as the bridge is +200' from the target and SK is between them. It'll look like this:
(MINION) Hunter <------190'----->SK<----------50'-------->Bridge
You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.
If all that comes out of this is, 'at least the PLers are working harder', realize how much more inconvenient and convoluted it is for EVERY OTHER GAMER in CoH and drop it from the code altogether. Please.
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Quoted for genius.
If the Devs are dead set on releasing this code, please, PLEASE put additional code in there for debuffers and buffers to get xp from doing their jobs (while on teams anyways).
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once again re-quoted:
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You have now placed the SK within level range of the target AND within leash range of exp while removing the bridge as an XP leech from the scenario. Now the 3 man team xp boost is split among two, the hunter and the SK this whole setup was built for anyway. VOILA!! Better PLing without exploiting and all thanks to this 'limitation' on PLing.
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You are a deviously brilliant individual.
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Seconded! I would never have come up with this brilliant twist on using XP range to your advantage.
Finding bridges is a pain because they level up as you use them...this could eliminate that. The only problem is getting the distances consistently right, which would be hard to automate.
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Actually it would be painfully easy to automate. Have the SK mark the PL'er and the mentor mark the SK. The SK stays 55-60 Yards from the PL'er (who would have to be a melee fighter) and have the mentor stay at least 20 yards further back from the SK. Actually you wouldn't even have to have the mentor mark the SK, just have him mark the PL'er and stay more than 70 yards back from the PL'er.
Simple.
(btw, lvl 32 and I've been playing since before the Rikti invasion)
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Change the math on these slightly and you have a new power leveling technique that is at least twice as effective as the one that is currently used on live. And 100 yards is much easier to check up on than 67 in any case. If you make it double SK distance, then you wouldn't inconvenience much of anyone, and you'd keep the PL'ers away from the station. Not much better, but a little.
(edited to add commentary)
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Currently - stay within 300 ft.
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This will be fixed before this goes live, right?
Or at the very least give every hold a single 1 point of damage.
Most Controllers and Defenders already get forced into teaming to get xp, don't shaft them more.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
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I see no reason that you should be 300' away from a fight you are involved in. Your buffs aren't earning XP, you are. That requires you to be closer to the fight.
That really isn't that tough.
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then you never street hunted with a scrapper have you. I am sometimes on my 3rd set of 8+ by the time my healer friends catches up with me. To give me another one of those great endurance and heal buffs or give a heal. Founders Fall they have a hard time trying to keep up; I guess I will just street hunt solo and tell the defender tough cookie keep up or find a group doing missions. (Wait I can not she is a real life friend) oh well I can solo street sweep no skin off my teeth good luck defender/controllers you are now the red head step child of coh
I know one thing I ran into something I have not seen in COH before last night. People in my groups talking about leaving for another game; I have not had that happen once before in COH now it is starting to pop up and all of it was over the xp leash law
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Currently - stay within 300 ft.
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This will be fixed before this goes live, right?
Or at the very least give every hold a single 1 point of damage.
Most Controllers and Defenders already get forced into teaming to get xp, don't shaft them more.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
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I see no reason that you should be 300' away from a fight you are involved in. Your buffs aren't earning XP, you are. That requires you to be closer to the fight.
That really isn't that tough.
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If the damage dealer can get XP for using his primary and then being 300' away when the MOB dies, and there is a simple way to make this true for most Defender/Controllers as well, why would there be any objection to implementing that simple change?
I get how hard it would be to track buffs, but adding a trivial amount of damage to debuffs/controls is NOT hard to code. They ALREADY draw aggro. There is absolutely no downside to this change and it eases the pain of this change for support ATs. Other than the joy of saying "tough luck pal", what possible reason could you have for opposing this change?
States I still have a bit of a problem with the timer issue.
It still encourages a mentor to hospital during a fight thus killing his SK. Shouldn't he be encourage the other way? If the mentor dies and doesn't hospital he may not get any XP from what is likely the best XP on the mission. Its the noble thing to say dead and there so your SK has a fighting chance but your timer will punish him for it. That just needs to be looked at please. I don't hate your plan, nor do I think its going to do anything to Pling but the timer is going to hurt only people not PLing. Because a PLer doesn't get into fights that take a minute each and if someone died he'd just wait for him to hospital and return before continueing on. Further most pling that happens is on mission maps so the while distance thing is really moot based on your altered fix of letting all people on a mission map get the XP. I understand your desire but I think this arrow will miss the mark and hit the people playing the game not those pling it.
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How often do you lie dead for longer than a minute? That almost never happens with me. Is this a common occurance among the majority of the playerbase?
If the answer is no then your complaint is moot.
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Street hunting not usually. I would extend the timer in hazard zones to 3-5 minutes though. This would give the mentor more incentive to stay with his sidekick than to immediately bail and go to the hospital a zone or two away.
Missions, yes, this was a big issue, but that's been fixed.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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Based on data from the Training Room and feedback on the forums, we will be making the following changes to how XP, Influence and other drops are divided:
If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
Well be putting the distance and mission map changes up on the Training Room soon (week or so) to see how it plays out.
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works.
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Ok I'm confused. Care to remind me again why this entire xp range change was being put into effect?
I had thought you said that this whole system was being implemented to curb power levelling.
How exactly does this do that?
-Majority of power levellers are doing so via mission farms, this range feature doesn't affect mission maps.
-Those power levellers who do use street hunting now have 300ft to hover, phase shift, use invisible, stay out of line of site of mobs, and various other tactics that will leave them 99.99% safe
-Also, how are teammates supposed to keep track of how far from each other all 8 teammates are? Combat's fast paced enough keeping track of several mobs at once, to keep track of how far all the teammembers are from each other is going to be nearly impossible. If someone goes chasing after a runner and they could end up having not delt damage to the mobs the group is currently fighting and out of range, thus getting nothing that they deserve.
No matter how you set up this XP Range business I don't see how its going to be fair to the regular players. The non-power levellers. Too many situations could leave people more than 300 ft apart.
If you want to curb power levelling find something that doesn't affect regular game play.
w00t Radio
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Anytime pizza is used as an analogy? Awesome. Course, now I'm hungry and kinda mad at the pizza place
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Agreed, but in this forum, it probably should have been pie.
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Ya know, I often get together with SG mates in PI or the RCS & we just split up & hunt the zone for xp. This tactic completely eliminates that opportunity
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Exactly. That "opportunity" is your team powerlevelling each other. You're not hunting together when you do this, you're soloing. The difference is a private channel and the xp you get for someone across the zone's kill. The point of teaming is to work together, not to just share xp.
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Correction. The activity he descibes is NOT PLing. All the teammates are taking risk and getting rewards. They are giving up a share of the XP they would have earned directly to participate in a share of the XP their teammates earn. Since in zones spawn size is NOT effected by team size the ONLY upsid they get is the team bonus, which is relatively negligible.
The PLing is the no-risk for reard activity that occurs when one or more of this team sits at the tram and racks up XP while at no risk whatsoever.
With global chat available, I see it as fair to say to people who like such acitvites that they should use Global Chat to stay in touch while "soloing" together like this. They've no inherent right to that teaming bonus in this situation and they can still chat as they see fit.
BUT calling this activity PLing is simply ridiculous. Look at the definition of PLing States posted when he first announced this idea. The activity described here DOES NOT fit that definition.
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u realize that this really doesnt stop the power levelers.??
most power levelers heard the wolves into a single area its not hard to move the others to an area within the 300ft area.
seems like a lot of work for not.
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Those missions are timed now.
Howeve I really don't understand why the blinky hunt gives you more time than the one to kill Shadowhunter and blinky hunt. That makes no sense.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/