Pyramid mind, eh?
If you ever come across Chrome or Sparque, hit me with a tell. I'd love to hang with you. Also, if you see other heroes from my SG, MASTERS DOJO, send them a tell and tell them Chrome sent you.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh man, my friend told me "Don't ready the Coh forums, they'll just piss you off" and he was right. I have two paying accounts, one that my wife plays and one that I play. We enjoy our friends helping us through some of those tough levels sometimes. Missions and storyarcs are tend to get real boring. After about August 04 I just stopped reading the stories. All I see on these threads, and on most of the Coh forum is a group of individuals complain about how detrimental Power Leveling is to the game. It's not detrimental to the game. Just like the Regen Scrapper issue, all this is doing is making alot of people mad at a change that isn't needed. Why would I pay $30 a month to keep my accounts open if I have to just play story arcs with a team, the entire time. This is such a cool game because of the flexibility that a character has to work with. The few characters complaining that another character is leveling too fast is detrimental to the individual game play. As the guidlines for playstyle get too narrow a person is less likely to roll another character to 50 because they have already gone through all the content. Even though we get updates that doesn't mean that I can go to Striga Island and do anything with my level 50 yet. I have to wait for an update that will let me go back and work with an old contact. Really the staying power of this game for me was the fact that I didn't have a set path to the "End Game" as you do with most console games. There are so many ways to get to the top. Eliminating flexibility is going to make more and more people move on to other games that provide the fun and wide range of playstyles that Coh currently provides. Placeing more restrictions on game play will have a negative impact on teams that enjoy playing. All this because of a few people on the boards shouting "Power Leveling is bad" or "Power Leveling cheapens the game". OMG guys, your lobbying to get a problem fixed that isn't a problem and its placeing more restrictions on how people are going to play. YOU are detracting from the appeal of the game, not the power levelers.
[/ QUOTE ]
You explained this well . 
He has an industrial idea about what's going on in this game.
We should pay more attention to the big picture than the little picture.Good point.
My compliments go out to you Markusius. 
Do not change xp range PLZ. i HAD 3 accounts, why you may ask so my friends can play the game with me..they dont play as much so pling them was the only way to bring them up to par...i was managing a few xtra hours per week at work to make up for the funds i needed to do this, but at the thought of pling going down the drain i shut down two accounts and told my friends they can play my main account if im not on. i managed to get my 50 all the way from level 1 the hard way..he was a controller and i had to solo most my way as well. if u dont like pling some one or dont want to they have the /ignore feature for when they get annoying and u can alwasy say no to them. we are rightfully paying for this game and how we want to play it is our choice. if we want to skip story arcs so be it, if we want to auto attack hasten then take a nap while we get free xp so be it, if we want to invis threw everymission from every contact so be it. this just dampens the game..also makes splitting up in city zones to knock out hunt missions very hard, if u are looking to do them so everyone gets xp. /em why states? why?
this reminds me of the song "let it be" u know that song? well you should let xp be as it is.
----------------------
Lord Whitey{50} illus/emp/fire<--Champion
Alt o' Holic with three accounts.
I totally agree with Frostybot's idea, of having an xp rate cap rather than a leash. The main reason? It doesn't affect HOW I play my character. It would be very easy to set a reasonable cap for this, that would be very difficult to reach, but would hit the PL'er fairly hard.
You could even design a graphical bar that shows how close I am to "xp saturation", so I can see when I am close, when my group should take a break, clear out minions, etc.
That way, we get a new feature in addition to keeping my playstyle functionally identical to how it is now, and even get a new feature on top of it!
[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with Frostybot's idea, of having an xp rate cap rather than a leash. The main reason? It doesn't affect HOW I play my character. It would be very easy to set a reasonable cap for this, that would be very difficult to reach, but would hit the PL'er fairly hard.
You could even design a graphical bar that shows how close I am to "xp saturation", so I can see when I am close, when my group should take a break, clear out minions, etc.
That way, we get a new feature in addition to keeping my playstyle functionally identical to how it is now, and even get a new feature on top of it!
[/ QUOTE ]
I like. Perhaps we could even build it into the existing exp bar as an overlay, similar to how debt shows up. Say, a bright border of some kind around each exp bubble/bar as your absorption fills- so when the whole thing's glowing, you know you're "full" (which should take a good deal- like I said, setting the bar based on Invincible play ought to be DARN tough to overdo, barring PLing!).
And while I'm at it- have the absorption rate be linked to -trained- levels. You train, part of the benefit is faster absorption. It'd mean chain-leveling in one place would slow a bit as the new character would want to train to "clear their head" faster.
Powerleveling does, in the end have a negative effect on the game- and those people getting tells whether they ignore them or not are experiencing a symptom of it.
That is, it reinforces the common mindset that in most MMORPG's, you must level to get to the "good stuff". CoH is the only MMORPG I've been in where people are unhappy they outleveled lower-level areas, TF's and story arcs! There's a thread on how many Kheldian players are getting harassed about bringing their L50 out to PL people on the Kheldian board. That worries me.
And I believe that without putting some solid, but high ceiling on exp gain that will only get worse. Powerleveling makes a game "top-heavy", and in the long run, it makes a game more and more difficult to experience for new players. That's half the reason I think sidekicking exists- to mitigate the desire/need to PL while letting people of differing play time/level enjoy the game together. Rule Number One.
New players sustain games. Old players, no matter WHAT an MMORPG does, eventually stop playing. A game should do it's best to give both measure equally IMHO.
I'm thankful this range change is only on Test. It should die there- but the fact that it was even done points to a belief by the developers that something is causing a negative effect on the game, and that something is powerleveling. I think we, the players have an idea here that will cure that problem better than the range change...now that Statesman and company have made it clear there is a problem, in their opinion. The cure should not be a bitter one. Range leaves a bad taste in too many mouths.
Heck, an absorption bar gives the achievement minded something new to brag about.
"Dude, I got my exp bar flashy every day for the past week doing invinc missions with the SG".
"Whoa."
Heck, I was the same way on Gemstone III. Getting "fried" was a point of pride as an oldskool fiter (heavy hide armor 4 life, yo!).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with Frostybot's idea, of having an xp rate cap rather than a leash. The main reason? It doesn't affect HOW I play my character. It would be very easy to set a reasonable cap for this, that would be very difficult to reach, but would hit the PL'er fairly hard.
You could even design a graphical bar that shows how close I am to "xp saturation", so I can see when I am close, when my group should take a break, clear out minions, etc.
That way, we get a new feature in addition to keeping my playstyle functionally identical to how it is now, and even get a new feature on top of it!
[/ QUOTE ]
I like. Perhaps we could even build it into the existing exp bar as an overlay, similar to how debt shows up. Say, a bright border of some kind around each exp bubble/bar as your absorption fills- so when the whole thing's glowing, you know you're "full" (which should take a good deal- like I said, setting the bar based on Invincible play ought to be DARN tough to overdo, barring PLing!).
And while I'm at it- have the absorption rate be linked to -trained- levels. You train, part of the benefit is faster absorption. It'd mean chain-leveling in one place would slow a bit as the new character would want to train to "clear their head" faster.
Powerleveling does, in the end have a negative effect on the game- and those people getting tells whether they ignore them or not are experiencing a symptom of it.
That is, it reinforces the common mindset that in most MMORPG's, you must level to get to the "good stuff". CoH is the only MMORPG I've been in where people are unhappy they outleveled lower-level areas, TF's and story arcs! There's a thread on how many Kheldian players are getting harassed about bringing their L50 out to PL people on the Kheldian board. That worries me.
And I believe that without putting some solid, but high ceiling on exp gain that will only get worse. Powerleveling makes a game "top-heavy", and in the long run, it makes a game more and more difficult to experience for new players. That's half the reason I think sidekicking exists- to mitigate the desire/need to PL while letting people of differing play time/level enjoy the game together. Rule Number One.
New players sustain games. Old players, no matter WHAT an MMORPG does, eventually stop playing. A game should do it's best to give both measure equally IMHO.
I'm thankful this range change is only on Test. It should die there- but the fact that it was even done points to a belief by the developers that something is causing a negative effect on the game, and that something is powerleveling. I think we, the players have an idea here that will cure that problem better than the range change...now that Statesman and company have made it clear there is a problem, in their opinion. The cure should not be a bitter one. Range leaves a bad taste in too many mouths.
Heck, an absorption bar gives the achievement minded something new to brag about.
"Dude, I got my exp bar flashy every day for the past week doing invinc missions with the SG".
"Whoa."
Heck, I was the same way on Gemstone III. Getting "fried" was a point of pride as an oldskool fiter (heavy hide armor 4 life, yo!).
[/ QUOTE ]
First hit 50 then talk about how power leveling sucks.
I pay ! I get what I want! farthermore, 959 posts... you could of had 10 50s by now if you weren't fooling around on this "forum"
To be continued...
Activating Anti-Crap on shield 
take it easy
I'm taking a poll, if anyone is interested in voting.
"Death and XP" Poll
NewScrapper
[ QUOTE ]
First hit 50 then talk about how power leveling sucks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see. Did that on GSIII, EQ, and FFXI, playing the high level ubergame. Power leveling sucks.
On EQ it resulted in expansions being ubercontent alone, a cycle that's gotten 20 servers merged due to decimated population. The low levels became devoid of modern content, you see. A majority of the new and best parts of the game content became the sole province of high-level uberguilds. You don't see the Plane of Time in a pickup group, sorry. Newbies got left in the dust, and that's why newbie friendly games thrive and EQ no longer does. Low level play became not only a grind, but a BORING grind to be avoided even the first time....because the devs had no time for anyone under 50th.
FFXI, powerleveled characters got you killed. Player knowledge was and is critical, especially on the big encounters. Good HNM/God level linkshells don't take PLed characters, because the skill level of someone on Easy Street just isn't the same. It takes the kind of drive to actually DO things, rather than suck up experience, to do that kind of content and do it well.
CoH, blessedly doesn't have a lot of that. And seeing people monsterbate their way into the top of the level chart only means the next step of those people demanding nothing but top level content (because all the good stuff should be uber!) and disrupting the development of the game as a whole, living thing.
No crap. Just a decade+ of MMORPGing experiences and gaming talking. Our money doesn't me we get what we demand. We give Cryptic our money because we like what we get.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First hit 50 then talk about how power leveling sucks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see. Did that on GSIII, EQ, and FFXI, playing the high level ubergame. Power leveling sucks.
On EQ it resulted in expansions being ubercontent alone, a cycle that's gotten 20 servers merged due to decimated population. The low levels became devoid of modern content, you see. A majority of the new and best parts of the game content became the sole province of high-level uberguilds. You don't see the Plane of Time in a pickup group, sorry. Newbies got left in the dust, and that's why newbie friendly games thrive and EQ no longer does. Low level play became not only a grind, but a BORING grind to be avoided even the first time....because the devs had no time for anyone under 50th.
FFXI, powerleveled characters got you killed. Player knowledge was and is critical, especially on the big encounters. Good HNM/God level linkshells don't take PLed characters, because the skill level of someone on Easy Street just isn't the same. It takes the kind of drive to actually DO things, rather than suck up experience, to do that kind of content and do it well.
CoH, blessedly doesn't have a lot of that. And seeing people monsterbate their way into the top of the level chart only means the next step of those people demanding nothing but top level content (because all the good stuff should be uber!) and disrupting the development of the game as a whole, living thing.
No crap. Just a decade+ of MMORPGing experiences and gaming talking. Our money doesn't me we get what we demand. We give Cryptic our money because we like what we get.
[/ QUOTE ]
EQ is dead becaue it is old and out dated period end of story; DAOC still does well in the low level 20's because the best PVP is the early battlegrounds.
Time will catch up with all old games as they become out dated
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
If i cant power level my alts, there is no point...
Statesman..I hate cryptic and what you've done to my mains primary power set.. You have been evil to me..
I had a dream, but it never will be.
[ QUOTE ]
Based on data from the Training Room and feedback on the forums, we will be making the following changes to how XP, Influence and other drops are divided:
If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
Well be putting the distance and mission map changes up on the Training Room soon (week or so) to see how it plays out.
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works.
[/ QUOTE ] states that a great idea but the death counter should be rise to 4 minutes since it may get in a ugly situation where that person won't be able to awake or be revived even for there hard work then he'll get pissed since he work so much and just for 1 min dead he doens't get xp well that a unhappy costumer.( please correct if what I said is wrong).
I thought i told you people to stop complaining 
PLing is not a issue here. Stop wasting the devs time with it so they can work on things like getting the bugs fixed in the arena. You are delaying my issue 4 release with a bunch of crap. Dont make me come over there.
Agreed...its a good thing ppl read the forums more than they play the game itself...nvm I forgot the world will stop turning if people dont complain 
I remember an old MUD from back in the day. they had a xp system that had it were you HAD to do non-combat quests to balance out the combat xp's, or over time, you would get less xp'x for kills.
This is the last thing for me on the topic. Bottom line is any way you slice it. Power Leveling isnt a problem because people don't like it. That is their opinion. It doesent stop non power levelers from playing the game or prevent them from completeing a mission. A person that is anti pl is either one of the people who begged to get a pl and denied or is the jealous type. Example Jon was showing off his poweres to roger because he was 5 levels higher than him. 3 days later roger was five levels higher than jon. Or someone has more level 50's than another person. BLAH As i said plin isnt a problem. A problem is perma taunt in the arena. A problem is force of nature being called foce of nature. a problem is lvl 20's havin lvl 42 bosses in the mob. Plin is opinion. Again getting tells about plin and your in ability to ignoar them is a personal problem not a in game problem. My biggest concern is the way xp is going to be divided when im running missions. I start loseing xp because im not close enough im done with this game. In the end the anti plers are gonna screw themselves. And the people who do pl usually have more than 1 account and invested in more than 1 computer. You take that away from them i gurantee they walk away from the game. Not to mention the people who complain about plin isnt the majority of the community. Its just the same people who have nothing better to do. Try to hard to stop plin you are gonna lose half of your paragon citizens. And the other half are gonna have a hell of a time running missions efficiently. Also i totaly agree that the rez time needs to be changed. I'm not gonna take a rez in the middle of a mob so i can die again while im still floating in the air because i may miss out on xp. You devs need changes to be fair. Issues like this that are opinionated should be voted on by everyone. This isnt a problem that needs to be fixed in order to run the game properly. So try and hear everyones voice before you make a change to the way some people play the game instead of 10% who have nothing better to do than complain. I can assure you your customer base depends on the changes you make. If i hear one more person say they cany ignoar tells im calling for a chat box nerf. delete the thing. Sounds as rediculous as you saying you cant ignoar tells doesnt it. Now if you will excuse me i have some av's to go kill. and for the last time KNOCK IT OFF YOUR DELAYING MY ISSUE 4 WITH PROBLEMS THAT DONT EXIST. and remember rule #1 always have fun. for all you power levels out there that rule doesnt apply because they r trying to take your fun away. If thats how they want to have fun then so be it let em.
[ QUOTE ]
And seeing people monsterbate their way into the top of the level chart only means the next step of those people demanding nothing but top level content (because all the good stuff should be uber!) and disrupting the development of the game as a whole, living thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have yet to monsterbate, but thanks anyway! I simply dread a hero's life before SOs, and I am not willing to play most ATs prior to their availability. I have deleted more toons in their teens than I would care to admit. Before the respec trials came along, that was how you fixed bad power/slot choices, you just rerolled 'em as soon as you figured out you f'd up. I have seen most if not all of it before, and I am not interested in seeing it again. Really though, someone shouldn't need to give a reason why they are in favor of keeping the option to PL in CoH. They're doing whatever it takes to keep themselves interested enough to pay for one or more accounts every month, isn't it bad enough they had to resort to an "undesirable" method of gameplay to accomplish it. Where you see an "evil player", I see "design flaws". Human beings by nature will gravitate to the most rewarding behavior.
The way I see it, CoH has already begun on it's path down that dark, lonley road that you mentioned. The further into developing high-level content the dev team goes, the more people there are that would rather be doing "the good stuff". Khelds, APPs, and Hami raids are the types of content that become a HUGE factor as to why even folks that dislike the notion of PLing would succumb to it's temptation. What you have stated as happening as a result of PLing, is in fact what is causing a great deal of the demand for it. Ham-handed attempts to remove PLing and victimize it's advocates will not remove the demand for it's presence, it will only serve to alienate the folks that figured out that there is a need for it.
Slight increases to leveling speed(read: major overhaul) in the L30-50 range, increased xp rewards for TFs and AV battles, temporary travel power rewards being mixed into the early missions... These and many other good ideas have been shot down or pushed aside despite the reality that they would strike an impressive blow to PLing, by removing the very reasons why people do it. I feel that when these and several other timesink-based issues are addressed, the now existent masses who PL every day will fade into a minority, and most importantly, they will do so of their own free will and not because it was imposed on them. Until I am paying less than $14.95/mo per account, then the game has *not* been devalued in the least on my end.
/sarcasm
If PLing is going to eventually result in subscription prices dropping, then I'm all for it! /sign
/end sarcasm
I am quite fond of PLing, because as the game is now, I feel it is a necessary evil in Paragon. As is avoiding it if you feel it is not for you, because once you've seen the dark side, you'll not soon be heading back towards the light. If PLing your alts is all that keeps you playing, then so frickin' be it. Why should you be unwelcome? I don't agree with it, as I PL to get past the dread, not to bypass the entire game.
I don't personally think anyone should engage in PLing activities until *after* the honeymoon with CoH, so to speak, is over for them. I see no reason a fresh player should get PLed, there really is too much out there to be experienced and learnt to just bypass it all. But I believe it should be a choice left up to the individual, not (*gulp*, I know I'll get hell for this) the Lead Designer. The Lead Designer should be figuring out what makes us tick, and why we are doing this instead of enjoying what he has made for us to enjoy.
Friends to be made. Missions and TFs to complete. Badges to earn. Plenty of locations, travel routes, and villain groups to learn about. When you know nothing else, the early levels really are downright fun. Sadly, I've already played that part of CoH to death, and feel it should be left up to me whether I need to bypass it. I am paying. I should decide how I play.
There are alot of wonderful times to be had playing CoH the "right" way. The same can be said about PLing though, when leveling up and playing with different builds becomes the only new content left unexplored. Doing Sister Psyche's TF for the 4th time, I took notice that it was no different than the first time, and I was only in it for the badge and the social value I place on teaming with other people for several hours. Did I PL past it? No. It still holds some gameplay value to me, it is still a fraction of the *only* game I have found worthy of my time. It was just not fun, exciting, or rewarding after already doing it.
No game developer will likely impress veteran players by forcing them down a narrow and time consuming path, when those players have already seen the faster, more enjoyable side of things. Yeah, yeah... I already got it. It sucks to be a hero-in-training. I don't need to play through it all again to reaffirm my belief that it lacks any real thrill, challenge, or fun the 30th time through. I have adopted the belief that levels 3-21 are just an extended tutorial like Outbreak, and like Outbreak is now, should be optional. A level 1 sprinting to Portal Court without dying, now that's a challenge even for a long-time CoH player.
There are plenty of bad elements involved no matter which way you play, but they can heavily outweigh the good in the normal course of the game, especially early on. No travel or Fitness pools. Lack of powers to use. Lousy pickups involving other people with a lack of powers to use. Annoying tells. Blind invites. Kill stealing. I am not here to say PLing is better, but it's at least a partial solution to the issues some people obviously have with the game's advancement rate and early levels which are simply rank with unknowledgable/unteachable people. PLing has it's ups and downs just like playing the early levels outright does. It takes a healthy bit of "good" to balance out the "bad", and for me, the early levels contained at least twice as much hassle, timesink, and annoyance as 22-48 has, without any of the upside, so it's no wonder I will avoid it if I can. It's not my fault that it feels like punishment to go through AP again, I place that responsibility on Statesman and his team. I can move on, or I can continue to pay and play to my tastes. Paying to play through King's Row a few more times? Well... no thanks. I have a love-hate relationship with CoH. I love it in a general way, it is like a second home and is the most immersive RPG experience that I have been a part of, but I very much despise the tutorial-like feel of the early level gameplay once you've already drudged through it.
[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to monsterbate, but thanks anyway! I simply dread a hero's life before SOs, and I am not willing to play most ATs prior to their availability. I have deleted more toons in their teens than I would care to admit. Before the respec trials came along, that was how you fixed bad power/slot choices, you just rerolled 'em as soon as you figured out you f'd up. I have seen most if not all of it before, and I am not interested in seeing it again. Really though, someone shouldn't need to give a reason why they are in favor of keeping the option to PL in CoH. They're doing whatever it takes to keep themselves interested enough to pay for one or more accounts every month, isn't it bad enough they had to resort to an "undesirable" method of gameplay to accomplish it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, yes it is. Powerleveling is essentially saying "I'm not having any fun with large portions of the game.". If you're having fun with the game- well, you're not powerleveling through the content as fast as possible. You're playing through as much of it as possible in order to experience every drop of gaming goodness, rather than skipping large chunks.
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, CoH has already begun on it's path down that dark, lonley road that you mentioned. The further into developing high-level content the dev team goes, the more people there are that would rather be doing "the good stuff". Khelds, APPs, and Hami raids are the types of content that become a HUGE factor as to why even folks that dislike the notion of PLing would succumb to it's temptation. What you have stated as happening as a result of PLing, is in fact what is causing a great deal of the demand for it. Ham-handed attempts to remove PLing and victimize it's advocates will not remove the demand for it's presence, it will only serve to alienate the folks that figured out that there is a need for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I think the dev team here sees that. Kheldians are the only AT that takes a level 50 to open (the others will have alternate requirements instead). APP's are essentially the level 40+ powers put in since originally, there were none to have from 32nd on. I'd like to see a 10th power added to primary/secondary lists, to fill in the power gap between 32 and 41 for primaries and secondaries, if possible. 40-50 didn't have the planning that 1-40 did.
[ QUOTE ]
Slight increases to leveling speed(read: major overhaul) in the L30-50 range, increased xp rewards for TFs and AV battles, temporary travel power rewards being mixed into the early missions... These and many other good ideas have been shot down or pushed aside despite the reality that they would strike an impressive blow to PLing, by removing the very reasons why people do it. I feel that when these and several other timesink-based issues are addressed, the now existent masses who PL every day will fade into a minority, and most importantly, they will do so of their own free will and not because Jack Emmert feels it devalues his creation. Until I am paying less than $14.95/mo per account, Jack 'ole boy, then the game has *not* been devalued in the least on my end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Temp travel powers are in I4. And we're looking at a whole stack of content for the 30-39 range with I5. There's a hole in the exp range right now, IMHO- and that's 39-42 or so (content's thinner there, and you can't do as much). But I agree- one of the solutions to choking off the desire to PL is more content. But the mirror of that is good content takes time- and powerleveling only increases the pressure on devs to provide that content, which leads to crappy content instead. We play out and enjoy good content faster than the devs can put it in to satisfy us- which IMHO is the mark of a good game.
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite fond of PLing, because as the game is now, I feel it is a necessary evil in Paragon. As is avoiding it if you feel it is not for you, because once you've seen the dark side, you'll not soon be heading back towards the light. If PLing your alts is all that keeps you playing, then so frickin' be it. Why should you be unwelcome? I don't agree with it, as I PL to get past the dread, not to bypass the entire game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I've seen the down side of powerleveling in other games. Anything that can be done to control that trend without destroying the game in the process (and I think this range code is damaging to the game), I'm for. Simply being able to powerlevel is itself an urge to do so, to not experience the game but to race through it as fast as possible, skipping large chunks of the content. There shouldn't BE "dreadful" parts of the game, which is why the range code stinks to me. It makes parts of the game unpleasant. Exp absorption isn't going to- 99% of the people going through at a normal rate, or even an exceptional one won't notice a high ceiling. Only the PL'ed heroes will, as they'll end up hitting it headfirst trying to outprogress any "natural" rate of exp gain.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't personally think anyone should engage in PLing activities until *after* the honeymoon with CoH, so to speak, is over for them. I see no reason a fresh player should get PLed, there really is too much out there to be experienced and learnt to just bypass it all. But I believe it should be a choice left up to the individual, not (*gulp*, I know I'll get hell for this) the Lead Designer. The Lead Designer should be figuring out what makes us tick, and why we are doing this instead of enjoying what he has made for us to enjoy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that all players should have the ability to advance at the same pace- that there shouldn't be a way to break that rate of progression. That covers a lot. But the fact that the ability to powerlevel exists, means people will do so. Often, this means the fact that good, fun lower level content exists is missed entirely. I've had folks I team up with in the 30's that didn't know what Striga Isle was, and no clue what a story arc/TF was! Why? A friend PLed them up through the usual suspects, and as a result they not only missed the honeymoon, they missed the courtship too. Every level that you can "skip" is essentially isn't there for the player.
[ QUOTE ]
Friends to be made. Missions and TFs to complete. Badges to earn. Plenty of locations, travel routes, and villain groups to learn about. When you know nothing else, the early levels really are downright fun. Sadly, I've already played that part of CoH to death, and feel it should be left up to me whether I need to bypass it. I am paying. I should decide how I play.
[/ QUOTE ]
You just described CoH to me there, and essentially said you played it to death. That's sorta scary.
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No game developer will likely impress veteran players by forcing them down a narrow and time comsuming path, when those players have already seen the other side. Yeah, yeah... I already got it. It sucks to be a hero-in-training. I don't need to play through it all again to reaffirm my belief that it lacks any real thrill, challenge, or fun the 30th time through. I have adopted the belief that levels 3-21 are just an extended tutorial like Outbreak, and like Outbreak is now, should be optional. A level 1 sprinting to Portal Court without dying, now that's a challenge even for a long-time CoH player.
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If it's optional for you, why isn't it optional for everyone? Should I be able to start at 14th? 20th? The ability to skip parts of the game would just be another carrot to leveling as fast as possible- a cure could be as bad as the disease. Would that be a good "perk" for playing the game for a long period of time? Could it be balanced in some way- say, you can start at that higher level, but with max debt...if your account's been around for a year (or six months).
There you go. You've skipped the newbie part of the game, because you have enough game experience (by playing) to be assumed to have knowledge of the early stages of the game. It'd be a reward for playing the game, not merely leveling up to 50th by brute force, and a perk given to loyal subscribers.
IMO, you are right FrostyBot. Cheers to you.
Having a level 50 on an account in no way assures you someone knows their way around, and it shouldn't have been made into a goal for people to attain. I don't think people getting to 50 should've become all important. More reasons to blindly PL to the end.
With the new changes from each Issue, I like to take a deep breath and build a new alt on the chance the early levels are somewhat different or improved. I can't complain if I don't at least try it, right? I will do it again when I4 goes live and hopefully, some of the things I previously loved to hate early on will have improved since I3. Here's to Galaxy City and temp travel powers!
I think brute force leveling is something *some* people will at least attempt to do no matter what, and I don't think it can be stopped. Some people are just like that. A greater majority of people I know that play alot would rather PL their friends than play their new alt, often hoping someone else will get their own alt through some dread in exchange. Their experience leads them to believe it will take a significant amount of time otherwise. If there is dread involved, we don't want it. So you understand what I mean by dread, I mean tutorial, timesink, and travel. The three Ts. The first time it was all just part of the show, but over and over it's enough to drive a person to feel like they're done with the game, even though they haven't seen half of it yet. Enter powerleveling.
There have been some great ideas tossed around, it's sad to see the leash got implimented first, rather than some of the other, much better ones. I like the idea of XP absorbtion myself, but still I have to wonder... What is normal leveling? Some people play 8-16 hours a day, some maybe more, some only 2-3, who knows?. I've played an entire weekend on a few hours of sleep. If you go by the average powergamer's daily xp rate+, which is the minimum you could go by without stepping on honest feet, you're still giving folks quite a bit of headroom to continue PLing, just a bit slower and more structured. This idea is much less intrusive than the leash by far, but I don't like it at all that at some point "normal leveling" will have to be defined and hardcapped. No sir, can't say that sits too well with me at all. If you take the xp averages for today from any one server, the data will be skewed horribly because a good chunk of the population are PLing or being PLed. The skewing of the data will either work against PLers, in that the devs could take the average and truncate it to account for the PLing, leaving a very painful and narrow cap, or it could work for the PLers if they base the caps on the current xp/day/server average.
A quick idea I'll run past you that I thought could help lessen some of the disparity between high and low level SG mates who want to team up. I've found that problem to be very common.
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An SK getting SO or DO % boosts regardless of what is slotted, if they are with SO or DO-capable mentors, would help to narrow the very wide gap between a mentor and his SK alot. Not entirely, but a good bit. I know of several SGmates that would *not* have PLed their characters had this been the case. They would rather be useless for two nights watching herds, than useless for a month. Once I hit 22 and slot my SOs, I can go hang in PI SK'd a 50 and actually help to some degree, even tank for them. SOs make all the difference. In any commonplace PL session, SKs don't do anything, so it wouldn't be helping them out any. It's already bad enough we have few powers and slots, do our enhancements really *have* to be 1/2 or 1/4 as effective as our mentor's?
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You just described CoH to me there, and essentially said you played it to death. That's sorta scary.
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I meant the oughts and teens, actually... And I really did that to myself. I played then deleted so many characters prior to I2 in an attempt to figure out what I liked best, I over-experienced the early levels, well... early. I'm not asking for special concessions from anyone to make up for it. It's my own fault. I got burnt on the early level game because it was all I played for 4 months before settling on my main. I still try new characters and I don't always just rush off to PI immediately with them. I liked The Hollows, it gave me that one reason I needed to stay out of PI, and give the early levels a chance again.
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If it's optional for you, why isn't it optional for everyone?
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Is it not? I thought we were all able to do it whenever we wanted and that slowly but surely, equally eliminating the option to PL for everyone was the ultimate goal. It is very much an option for everyone I play with except people who beg, beggars do not usually get the option thrown their way as frequently as people who are not annoying.
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Should I be able to start at 14th? 20th?
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Yes, I believe you should. It should be up to you, if you do not enjoy a part of the game, to find a way past it. That is what I have done to keep a continued interest in playing CoH with several toons. /sarcasm I thought PLing was just an easter egg the devs put in there to make up for the 300+ hours you have to put in to get to 50 the first time. /end sarcasm
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The ability to skip parts of the game would just be another carrot to leveling as fast as possible- a cure could be as bad as the disease.
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Are you suggesting that would be a worse or more intrusive cure than the ill-concieved leash? Many people who openly admit to PLing are usually willing to give some reason why. My reason is: I liked the gameplay the first time but I felt alot of it was a drag each time after that. A drag that is there to slowly and drudgingly teach someone new to the game how to play over the course of a month or so, something I feel I have already accomplished. It was a drag = Not fun. Anything that a large portion of people do not enjoy should be deemed optional. This is a game and everything should be enjoyable, but a third of the game is spent getting to the enjoyment. If you like that part of the game and have found nothing wrong with it, then you have no need to skip it. If you don't like it, you should be able to go right past it, just like Outbreak. I don't think I'm the only well-seasoned player to complain about this. Those not complaining are likely gone already or have gotten used to having friends that will get you where you want to be.
I'm not gonna try to convince you that free L20s is a good idea though, because I don't think it is. My opinion is that I like things just the way they are. I like that I can get PLed to where I want to be and go off and play at the level I already know I enjoy. I'd always like to be able to trust in my own judgement regarding for how long and when it ends. I do see your point and it has been well recieved here. Who's to say if I can start at 20 I won't PL to 45 to get past the next "bad" part I chose to skip? I start with max debt? A few hours at Portal Corp ought to solve that. Woohoo, free L20s and a decent reason(debt) to start getting 'em PLed right away. Where does it end, if at all? 50 obviously, which is where alot of people want PLed to anyway. PLing exists comprehensively throughout CoH, as do ways to achieve it. There is not one way to do it but many. PLing is widespread enough that I think there are some glaring gameplay issues that the desire for PLing stems from.
All your levels are belong to us. -CoH EULA
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I'm not gonna try to convince you that free L20s is a good idea though, because I don't think it is.
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Free L20's or even FreeL14 is a wonderful idea for anyone that has a level 50 already I do not and I will get mine when I get there. I got two of them the hardway in DAOC and it was sweet able to make toons starting at Level 20. It made it eaiser I could start in the BG area and have a ton of fun. It has been good to them would it be good for COH maybe but has been done sucessfully in DAOC and they have tons of people still paying for 2 and 3 accounts
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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IMO, you are right FrostyBot. Cheers to you.
Having a level 50 on an account in no way assures you someone knows their way around, and it shouldn't have been made into a goal for people to attain. I don't think people getting to 50 should've become all important. More reasons to blindly PL to the end.
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One of the reasons I think L50 = Kheldian will be the only case where getting to 50th will unlock anything. The Good Stuff should come from doing something- but it shouldn't have to be "OMG DING 50 YOU KAN BE AN ALEEUN" stuff.
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I think brute force leveling is something *some* people will at least attempt to do no matter what, and I don't think it can be stopped. Some people are just like that. A greater majority of people I know that play alot would rather PL their friends than play their new alt, often hoping someone else will get their own alt through some dread in exchange. Their experience leads them to believe it will take a significant amount of time otherwise. If there is dread involved, we don't want it. So you understand what I mean by dread, I mean tutorial, timesink, and travel. The three Ts. The first time it was all just part of the show, but over and over it's enough to drive a person to feel like they're done with the game, even though they haven't seen half of it yet. Enter powerleveling.
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I don't think it can be stopped- but it can be curtailed. And as far as the three T's - the Tutorial part to me isn't tough to skip. A day or two gets me 10th level. I'm in Skyway by the early teens. A day or two of that and I've got my travel power.
As of I4, I don't have to worry about Travel. Just have to make sure the alt has some influence, and *bang* I'm airborne when I need to get somewhere fast. That they're in low-level zones makes this even easier- I can pick up a travel pack when I need one.
Timesink is the interesting one. What do we define as "timesink"? If it's leveling up the early stages, putting in the "Your account is X months old- you may start your character at Y level with debt" may be the solution to that one.
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There have been some great ideas tossed around, it's sad to see the leash got implimented first, rather than some of the other, much better ones. I like the idea of XP absorbtion myself, but still I have to wonder... What is normal leveling? Some people play 8-16 hours a day, some maybe more, some only 2-3, who knows?. I've played an entire weekend on a few hours of sleep. If you go by the average powergamer's daily xp rate+, which is the minimum you could go by without stepping on honest feet, you're still giving folks quite a bit of headroom to continue PLing, just a bit slower and more structured. This idea is much less intrusive than the leash by far, but I don't like it at all that at some point "normal leveling" will have to be defined and hardcapped. No sir, can't say that sits too well with me at all. If you take the xp averages for today from any one server, the data will be skewed horribly because a good chunk of the population are PLing or being PLed. The skewing of the data will either work against PLers, in that the devs could take the average and truncate it to account for the PLing, leaving a very painful and narrow cap, or it could work for the PLers if they base the caps on the current xp/day/server average.
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The joys of the Test server. Or any other one. Have your player-testers run characters through the low levels that they're familiar with. Check the exp rate. Toss the data from the people who play 16 hours a day or are leveling by playing the same mission over, and over, and over again.
Heck, we know what a Invincible-set story arc complete gets us for exp if we're the devs. Figure on average how many of these the average Joe can do, weight it a bit higher to give good players breathing room. Voila, we have the beginnings of a standard.
Put it on Test. Let people stress-test the bar, see how many exceed it (if they do) and if so, how they're doing it. Adjust accordingly. Get data on exp rates from PLing methods (the idea of Statesman, Geko, and Positron running around while CuppaJo is AFK at the tram is priceless). Most PLing, by it's nature, a repetitive process. Find an exp source, farm it repeatedly until no longer effective to gain exp, repeat.
Odds are, it'd only go through as many iterations as the leash ranges/rules are now. And be far better for the game in the process.
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An SK getting SO or DO % boosts regardless of what is slotted, if they are with SO or DO-capable mentors, would help to narrow the very wide gap between a mentor and his SK alot.
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Now there's an idea that only benefits an active SKer, rather than a sit-at-home one. Why not? It'd encourage people to be active sidekicks and effective ones, and the SK system is there so levels aren't a huge problem for the player who wants to team up with high level buddies.
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Should I be able to start at 14th? 20th?
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Yes, I believe you should. It should be up to you, if you do not enjoy a part of the game, to find a way past it. That is what I have done to keep a continued interest in playing CoH with several toons. /sarcasm I thought PLing was just an easter egg the devs put in there to make up for the 300+ hours you have to put in to get to 50 the first time. /end sarcasm
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There you go. As I don't have a L50 character here, I preferred asking to saying it myself.
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The ability to skip parts of the game would just be another carrot to leveling as fast as possible- a cure could be as bad as the disease.
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Are you suggesting that would be a worse or more intrusive cure than the ill-concieved leash? Many people who openly admit to PLing are usually willing to give some reason why.
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-Could- be. And part of the reason I poke is to get things out where they're seen and discussed. And I think the leash is at the bottom of the barrel as far as ideas to curb PLing goes.
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I'm not gonna try to convince you that free L20s is a good idea though, because I don't think it is. My opinion is that I like things just the way they are. I like that I can get PLed to where I want to be and go off and play at the level I already know I enjoy. I'd always like to be able to trust in my own judgement regarding for how long and when it ends. I do see your point and it has been well recieved here. Who's to say if I can start at 20 I won't PL to 45 to get past the next "bad" part I chose to skip? I start with max debt? A few hours at Portal Corp ought to solve that. Woohoo, free L20s and a decent reason(debt) to start getting 'em PLed right away. Where does it end, if at all? 50 obviously, which is where alot of people want PLed to anyway. PLing exists comprehensively throughout CoH, as do ways to achieve it. There is not one way to do it but many. PLing is widespread enough that I think there are some glaring gameplay issues that the desire for PLing stems from.
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So, would you think that giving a long-term player the ability to start at a higher level as a reward for being with the game long-term (to an extent) would be a bad thing? How much of the game is a "tutorial" before you get to where it isn't? Being able to skip that part due to out-of-game experience with CoH might not be a bad idea. Being able to skip further would. But it's the ability to skip large chunks of the game -without- that experience that is the problem with PLing.
And I think the only way to truly stop it is to figure out a point at which we say "OK, you're now advancing at a rate you could not sustain even on a top-of-the-line team. Too much, take a break." I think the dev team has the tools to measure this and define a limit...and needs to do so.
No more leashes and half-fixes. Kill the problem at it's source- and the one thing in common with ALL powerleveling is the abnormal rate of exp gain. That's why it's called powerleveling. Render that rate impossible to do, and the problem no longer exists. Leave an unlimited ability to gain exp in place, and it's trying to dam a river with cheesecloth.
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And I think the only way to truly stop it is to figure out a point at which we say "OK, you're now advancing at a rate you could not sustain even on a top-of-the-line team. Too much, take a break." I think the dev team has the tools to measure this and define a limit...and needs to do so.
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The problem with this is that a truly 'top-of-the-line team' supposedly advances as fast or faster than PLers. I made about a level and a half -- from 45 to almost 47 -- on a Shadow Shard TF, even being defeated multiple times (very NASTY level 52 AV at the end... his footstomps pretty much one-shotted me if I ran in too close to heal, or didn't run away fast enough if he moved my way). So, honestly, unless you're willing to punish top-of-the-line teams and players, the line between them and PLers is mighty narrow. If the devs did their jobs and avoided punishing the legit players, I suspect you wouldn't see an appreciable difference. Then again, not having done wolf-herding or whatever other PLing tactics people scream about, I can only take other people's words that the way my some of my SG mates are known for tearing through mission after mission is as good or better than what PLing gets you. <shrug>
There is one situation I can see this change penalizing people unfairly on a REGULAR basis.
Archvillain battles.
It is a regular occurance that I see AV battles open with the AV firing off an AOE capstone nuke and dropping key members of the group, then the rest of the group spends the rest of the battle trying in vain to pull the AV away from their bodies far enough for them to res. Or, the AV charges the support and one-shots them, then stands on their body for several minutes while they are whittled down.
Could you look at adjusting the timer for AV's?
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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And I think the only way to truly stop it is to figure out a point at which we say "OK, you're now advancing at a rate you could not sustain even on a top-of-the-line team. Too much, take a break." I think the dev team has the tools to measure this and define a limit...and needs to do so.
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The problem with this is that a truly 'top-of-the-line team' supposedly advances as fast or faster than PLers. I made about a level and a half -- from 45 to almost 47 -- on a Shadow Shard TF, even being defeated multiple times (very NASTY level 52 AV at the end... his footstomps pretty much one-shotted me if I ran in too close to heal, or didn't run away fast enough if he moved my way). So, honestly, unless you're willing to punish top-of-the-line teams and players, the line between them and PLers is mighty narrow. If the devs did their jobs and avoided punishing the legit players, I suspect you wouldn't see an appreciable difference. Then again, not having done wolf-herding or whatever other PLing tactics people scream about, I can only take other people's words that the way my some of my SG mates are known for tearing through mission after mission is as good or better than what PLing gets you. <shrug>
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Adjust the rate exp gets absorbed on team members in missions, by difficulty setting of the mission, and for TF's when doing missions. Being TF'ed is a flag. Being rated anything from Heroic to Invincible is a mission flag. Team size is a mission flag. Use them for modifiers. In fact, if the worst exp absorption rate is street sweeping, you're doing a number on some PLing right there. People who tear through TF's get rewarded with a better rate of absorption. People who run through a bunch of missions on a team get better rates. Effort is rewarded. And what does this idea do for bridging?
You even have a method on sidekicking/bridging while you're at it- since the player's exp absorption rate is going to be their REAL level's worth, not their SK'ed one (though adjusted for mission rating/team bonus/TF bonus). You bridge a L10 guy in, he's going to burn out his ability to gain exp faster than a L32 one that's only going up 4 levels, rather than 20+.
Go ahead, try and PL him when he stops gaining exp at any appreciable rate after the first mission, if the differential between real and SK'ed level is too high.
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Go ahead, try and PL him when he stops gaining exp at any appreciable rate after the first mission, if the differential between real and SK'ed level is too high.
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Okay, I thought I was starting to understand, but now I'm not... How does this idea protect legitimate, working SKs?
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There's a phrase that every dictator / ruler needs to learn...
The tighter you squeeze, the more that slips through your fingers.
The tighter they make the game restrictions on how we can play, the more likely it is that people will simply walk.
I have plenty of tolerance for my characters being adjusted, if I can be shown a definite need for the action. I don't see a need for this action even with the statements given thus far. This action doesn't address / accomplish their desired goals.
Earlier in this thread, I gave an outstanding idea on how to gut PLing via restricting the upper limit on a per mob basis of how much xp you can get. In a nutshell, cap earned xp per mob at character_level +4. That would mean a +4 mob and a +8 mob are worth the same thing... a +4 mob. That takes the heart right out of herd PLing because it's no longer the xp cow it once was.
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Hmmm it does seems as if Statesman is turning into a Tyrant. Mybe it's all part of an elaborate story arch of Statesman becoming a power hungry dictator who then becomes Tyrant. Or maybe Tyrant subjected him to something while he was captured.
OK now back to reality. The reality for me is the potential to harm non PLers far out weigh the rewards of the minor bump in the PLing road the current solution offers. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one, but knowing the historical stubborness of the dev team it's unlikely that will happen.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575