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There's the problem. You can do that with the entire mission's worth. You can lock an entire mission's worth of mobs on you at once. You can then Burn Patch/AE them to death in one easy application. Zero risk. Maximum reward.
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I have died many times using this tactic though, so there is definitely risk involved. The "No Risk." part of it is up until about 1/2 to 3/4s of the map are on me, then I start getting rocked constantly. Sometimes, I will have to kill off some of the herd at the 3/4s point, either to lessen the damage coming in or to acquire more insps for the final battle. I still regularly pop greens and purps like a madman. I *have* to use reds if I am doing the killing myself. I don't have any way to kill the herd in one shot, but I am not really limited on how long it takes to kill them like a squishy would be. I can take an hour to kill them if need be, but that would only slow me down. The risk involved only serves to make it more rewarding to me on a personal level, as the player, when I succeed. The risk is certainly not an effective deterrent.
[ QUOTE ]
"Let's pump it up to max and see if I can wipe the whole map clear in one shot."
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The problem is that of course we, as human beings, would always do that when it's possible. Everytime. Guaranteed. It would take a good bit of ignorance or alot of willpower to not see the advantages and utilize them to accel. And it *is* possible, so here I am doing it.
I originally hated the boredom of farming, but as a player who has been here since beta, there became a higher level of boredom associated with not doing it, mostly a feeling of nearly endless timesink and travel, with a pittance of a reward coming in for your troubles. I am limited to the amount of time I have to play, and because I am stubborn, I am also self-limited to doing whatever I believe is the most valuable action for my time. Whether it's Taunting old ladies to death, killing Paragon's policemen, etc. I'm all for it, if I can get my pink bar chuggin' along a little faster. Not heroic at all, but neither is blazing past the old ladies and cops in trouble, only because they are being troubled by greys. I'm not a hero, I just play one in a game.
I don't have enough interest in the story I already read or the TFs I've already done, to read/do them over again and pretend they're something new and great. They're not. Not for the umpteenth time. The only new and great thing left for me to do is play with different characters, and I'm not just blindly leveling them, I am playing with them. I am learning the limits of my own builds and also leveling at a speed I feel is more on par with what the game should offer to all players all the time. I cannot see how I could possibly be hurting or offending other players who don't even know I'm there. I'm in my missions, and I *do not* send tells looking for other people to farm them with me. Most people aren't interested anyway, for whatever reason, so why should I even bother them with the offer.
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This tells me something's wrong on the mob side of things.
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No. I am a tank. I am doing what a well-built tank *should* be able to do. I am sure as I get into the higher-level missions, this will become harder and harder to pull off. Perhaps some reworking of the combat AI could help, but changing the basics, like the damage/acc/HP/power tables for mobs, would hurt everyone else to the extreme just to make it slightly more challenging for herders. The mobs are balanced so that all the ATs can still manage to do their most of their missions solo, at least on heroic. Changing the mobs around to make me less effective at my only role, and making it stunningly difficult for others is not, IMHO, a good idea. Combat AI improvements maybe, but...
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I'm not for the leash either. Frankly, it's ineffective and annoying, and that's about all it seems to be good at.
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/agree
There are a plethora of ways around it if you're PLing an alt, and it is a kick in the jimmy to the way I *used* to normally streetsweep.
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No offense, but if that isn't a shining example of something being -wrong- with an AT vs. Environment...when the -entire population- of an Invincible-level mission at ONCE isn't a threat...that means there isn't any risk to the Tanker in question. Not that the Tanker needs to be nerfed- but the mobs need better attacks to deal with the tank. I'm guessing from the level, we're talking Fire tanking here?
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None taken. The same can be said about any AT though, depending on their gameplay methods. I am a tank, taking hits effectively is what I have been gifted with and when I am doing my job the rest of the team should be relatively safe. I am not the only one who is useful to a farming team, but a good tanker is definitely the base requirement. A controller can hold my herd all at once, negating the damage for a good portion of the time, and they might just have some buffs too. A blaster can AoE them in a few shots. A scrapper can effectively herd a smaller area of the map and bring them to me and "hand" them off, and then also help out alot in the final battle and most have a few AoEs as well. A defender can help me herd without using insps, and might bring some blaster-like AoEs to the table. Everyone is useful in a herding session to some degree, does that make everyone too powerful? Or is it just herding in and of itself that you don't like?
I'm not a firetank, too trendy for me. 
I am an Invuln/Axe tanker. Invuln lends itself well to herding, because the more mobs that are nearby, the greater protection you have from the herd. I also might add that I use *all* my available primaries to be that effective, and they are properly slotted with SOs, so I have very few attacks, all of which have their default slot.
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Add in a loss of control. If you've got that many mobs targeting you, your ability to taunt them ALL should be impaired. They (of these, some or all at once) should scatter, back off and LOSE aggro, target other heroes in range- basically, if you're covered in too many bad guys, the other bad guys should be doing something else BUT trying to hump your leg with ranged attacks.
As it stands, you have the unlimited capacity to hold mobs on you until they are capable of overloading your defenses- and as you stated, you are capable of taking an entire Invincible mission's worth of mobs on those defenses and not blinking twice.
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The loss of control comes into play if and when I die. The herd then turns on the team, and everyone nearby dies almost instantly. When that does happen, I like it to be obvious to everyone that it was my fault that it happened. "Just blame me!" I can forgive myself, but often I do not extend that courtesy to others as freely. Luckily, the xp is always enough to keep the team at it even after a catastrophic failure on my part.
I don't usually allow people to follow me and the herd around, becuase they *could* die. Instead, most people will wait at the entrance until the "all clear", then they come back to where I'm at with the herd for the action. They're gonna be plenty at risk when I call them back to do their part. Healers and damage dealers are difficult to get aggro back from, especially with many mobs. As you add teammates, you add to the number of mobs. If someone is on team but is not helping in some way, they are making my job that much tougher. But if they do help, it becomes alot easier to handle more mobs than I could alone.
If there were a finite limit to how many I can keep aggro'd at once, I would most likely not be able to challenge myself at that limit, and would continue on doing two, three, or more herds instead of one big one, but at no risk to my tank. I'm pretty flexible, and as long as I'm still herding I'm still having fun.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, making mob responses to taunting more unpredicatable once the number aggroed gets too high would be wonderful. Making hordes of mobs a threat over time to a Tanker like yourself would be better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some mobs are indeed a threat, any with stun/hold/disorent effects often drop your toggles after a bombardment of such attacks. Once my toggles drop, I might as well be a squishy, because I go down like one. A defender with CM can rid me of that fear of toggledrop though. There is always risk involved in herding, it just takes a huge number of mobs to put me beyond what I can safely handle.
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Heck no. But if you're farming Invincible missions with zero challenge for exp, where's the fun in that? Heck, what do you do for a challenge short of AV's? Giant Monsters solo? Heck, you've played a Fire/Fire blaster to the high 40's. Would an Invincible-set mission be a challenge to him?
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Heroic and Rugged present zero challenge, even with a full map's worth at once. Killing them is easy as well. Herding Tenacious+ is where I feel I am putting my tank at risk, invinc being the greatest risk. It gets alot harder to drop them at these levels too. As far as fun goes... I do have alot of fun herding, I enjoy doing it, it gets me alot of /em praise's from teammates in-game, and the xp is nothing to scoff at. Most people who haven't seen a herd before are either flatout disgusted or totally enthralled by the fact it is even possible. I have fun doing alot of the "mainstream" things too, because I have an almost god-like capacity to tank during those "normal" gameplay circumstances. The xp for doing it is where I have an issue. It is less reward for less risk, so it is not out of line, and I think it should be that way. That is why I like to aim for the highest-risk/highest-reward behavior all the time. Usually that amounts to herding masses like I do.
I cannot do anymore than tank an AV because it takes at least 2 damage dealers to compete with their insane regen rates. I would assume the same for any giant monsters as well. I tanked an AV this weekend for my SG. L49 Dominique. It was really fun, especially since my tank is only 27 and I have a way to go before I would get to fight one otherwise. We even herded up her minions twice before we completed it the third time. Fun for me. XP from the minion farming. It offered all that I could want from a team. Now if only we could get that xp without the farming, but by just doing the mission the normal way, there would essentially be no reason for most of us to farm at all. Some people would still farm it to milk every last drop of xp out of it, but so what.
My blaster is built to have every AoE available, all of them 6ed. I do his missions set to Unyielding to provide more mobs per group. I have successfully tried Invincible, but it offers substantially less xp/min than Unyielding, so I stick with that. He is mainly a herdkiller though, because his damage is overkill on the one or two mobs at a time found in missions. Missions offer a challenge to him, but because of the lack of xp from it, I usually employ a tank a few levels beneath him to herd stuff for my AoEs. If herding is not an option, hunting L50 Nemesis in PI is how I utilize my AoEs. It takes him a laughable amount of time to clear a mission solo, so I just stick to large minion groups of nems and kill herds when I can.
Notice he still isn't 50? Getting to 50 is not my goal with any of my toons, having fun playing them is. That goal is virtually unattainable if I just solo all my missions and disregard farming and herding altogether. That is simply not good enough after what I have witnessed in this game. The most challenging things I have done are arguably undesirable. Being PLed isn't the answer for me either, as my ego doesn't really allow me to just sit there for very long. I wouldn't mind a boost up to 22 on most of them, but after that I wouldn't dream of PLing them any further. I like to be the one doing the PLing, if involved in PLing at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I originally hated the boredom of farming, but as a player who has been here since beta, there became a higher level of boredom associated with not doing it, mostly a feeling of nearly endless timesink and travel, with a pittance of a reward coming in for your troubles. -TheAncientOne
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I agree with this statement. (I've played since launch). I have not done much PL but right when I was getting bored it became a popular way of boosting up new lowbies. BUT. This patch wasnt designed to KILL PL it was designed to LIMIT it. I always wondered why the lowbies couldnt trail behind the action... Its boring to sit at Swan all the time anyway.. 
Whlie I understand the need for some limits to be put in place, there is one thing that does bother me about this. The possiblity of a lower lvl toon who is PLing but is also assiting with buffs/debuffs/heals... etc. I have been help fellow SG'ers and getting great Xp with them. I assist with hunting and missions, but I am too low to touch any of the baddies cause of the lvl difference. I use a RAD/RAD def, so i do a lot of heals rezzes and debuffing as much as i can. I know that the lvl diff does not make a big debuff to the baddies but it does help.
So to restate my coincern for the Healer/controller whose only help friends who are battling baddies to high to damage, I hope that this proposed patch doesn't effect them .
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Notice he still isn't 50? Getting to 50 is not my goal with any of my toons, having fun playing them is.
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I agree completely with your entire post. 5 stars there
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The problem is that of course we, as human beings, would always do that when it's possible. Everytime. Guaranteed. It would take a good bit of ignorance or alot of willpower to not see the advantages and utilize them to accel. And it *is* possible, so here I am doing it.
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Which is the nature of all game playing. You do what the rules allow. That in itself is not a bad thing- but in doing it, it may point out a signficant skew to gameplay.
[ QUOTE ]
I originally hated the boredom of farming, but as a player who has been here since beta, there became a higher level of boredom associated with not doing it, mostly a feeling of nearly endless timesink and travel, with a pittance of a reward coming in for your troubles. I am limited to the amount of time I have to play, and because I am stubborn, I am also self-limited to doing whatever I believe is the most valuable action for my time. Whether it's Taunting old ladies to death, killing Paragon's policemen, etc. I'm all for it, if I can get my pink bar chuggin' along a little faster. Not heroic at all, but neither is blazing past the old ladies and cops in trouble, only because they are being troubled by greys. I'm not a hero, I just play one in a game.
[/ QUOTE ]
If there was a way to get more experience and difficulty out of a mission (in other words, higher settings) would you do fewer missions if the total yield per mission was higher?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have enough interest in the story I already read or the TFs I've already done, to read/do them over again and pretend they're something new and great. They're not. Not for the umpteenth time. The only new and great thing left for me to do is play with different characters, and I'm not just blindly leveling them, I am playing with them. I am learning the limits of my own builds and also leveling at a speed I feel is more on par with what the game should offer to all players all the time. I cannot see how I could possibly be hurting or offending other players who don't even know I'm there. I'm in my missions, and I *do not* send tells looking for other people to farm them with me. Most people aren't interested anyway, for whatever reason, so why should I even bother them with the offer.
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This is true- heck, I solo my own missions-at Heroic or one-up from there. As a Blaster, Invincible is likely doable....but it'd take till half-past forever. And certainly not 10-30 minutes.
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No. I am a tank. I am doing what a well-built tank *should* be able to do. I am sure as I get into the higher-level missions, this will become harder and harder to pull off. Perhaps some reworking of the combat AI could help, but changing the basics, like the damage/acc/HP/power tables for mobs, would hurt everyone else to the extreme just to make it slightly more challenging for herders. The mobs are balanced so that all the ATs can still manage to do their most of their missions solo, at least on heroic. Changing the mobs around to make me less effective at my only role, and making it stunningly difficult for others is not, IMHO, a good idea. Combat AI improvements maybe, but...
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Yes, you're a tank. You handle hits well. Being able to deliver enough damage on top of that to destroy the entire mission in 10 minutes at that difficulty level is well....kinda impressive.
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None taken. The same can be said about any AT though, depending on their gameplay methods. I am a tank, taking hits effectively is what I have been gifted with and when I am doing my job the rest of the team should be relatively safe. I am not the only one who is useful to a farming team, but a good tanker is definitely the base requirement. A controller can hold my herd all at once, negating the damage for a good portion of the time, and they might just have some buffs too. A blaster can AoE them in a few shots. A scrapper can effectively herd a smaller area of the map and bring them to me and "hand" them off, and then also help out alot in the final battle and most have a few AoEs as well. A defender can help me herd without using insps, and might bring some blaster-like AoEs to the table. Everyone is useful in a herding session to some degree, does that make everyone too powerful? Or is it just herding in and of itself that you don't like?
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Everyone is useful- but none of them seem to be needed. And by herding, it means a single tank becomes a catalyst no other AT could be for anyone whose abilities cover more than single targets. I've been on missions where the tank herded- the simple fact that I could hit a dozen, or two dozen targets at once with Frost Breath means my normal effectiveness went up about 400-800% at the least. And I'm an Ice Blaster- my AE ability is minor at best compared to most Blasters, or even Defenders in some cases. If those mobs scattered even a bit, it'd make that multiplier lower considerably. Should herding really be that powerful?
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If there were a finite limit to how many I can keep aggro'd at once, I would most likely not be able to challenge myself at that limit, and would continue on doing two, three, or more herds instead of one big one, but at no risk to my tank. I'm pretty flexible, and as long as I'm still herding I'm still having fun.
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Would you have fun if you were doing smaller herds that still involved risk? Would they have to have significantly higher exp value to do it?
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Actually, making mob responses to taunting more unpredicatable once the number aggroed gets too high would be wonderful. Making hordes of mobs a threat over time to a Tanker like yourself would be better.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some mobs are indeed a threat, any with stun/hold/disorent effects often drop your toggles after a bombardment of such attacks. Once my toggles drop, I might as well be a squishy, because I go down like one. A defender with CM can rid me of that fear of toggledrop though. There is always risk involved in herding, it just takes a huge number of mobs to put me beyond what I can safely handle.
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Logically then, when large numbers of status-inducing mobs are involved, you're not herding the map- you're taking smaller groups...and I'm guessing the rewards are lower, too. Not quite as bad as Vahziloks or Banished Pantheon, but bad?
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Notice he still isn't 50? Getting to 50 is not my goal with any of my toons, having fun playing them is. That goal is virtually unattainable if I just solo all my missions and disregard farming and herding altogether. That is simply not good enough after what I have witnessed in this game. The most challenging things I have done are arguably undesirable. Being PLed isn't the answer for me either, as my ego doesn't really allow me to just sit there for very long. I wouldn't mind a boost up to 22 on most of them, but after that I wouldn't dream of PLing them any further. I like to be the one doing the PLing, if involved in PLing at all.
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Just out of curiousity- how much playtime did it take you going from say, 22-28 with your Tanker? How was your exp/hour? It strikes me as being about as high as the bar would need to be, considering it does sound like the highest reward-for-risk that's "clean" in the game.
Why not just put a level limit on PI? 90 % of you power level occurs theres.
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Why not just put a level limit on PI? 90 % of you power level occurs theres.
[/ QUOTE ]
That just treats a symptom, but it doesn't stop the underlying reasons. It'd keep the PLing out of PI, at which point it'd be moving to somewhere else...missions being farmed.
I've noticed the zones less active, too. I came to the game in January and had the most fun I've ever had in it hunting and fighting Winter Lord with a bunch of other people, and leveling at an excellent clip: leveling means new powers, better bad guys and more overall fun. It's simply more fun killing monsters than slogging through missions or street hunts.
Level 25's and above have Octo and Ghost Ship, 36's and above have Krakens, and 45's and above have Hamidon, but the newbies and lowbies have nothing equivalent to help them gain xp and other rewards the way higher levels do. It's a shame because leveling is what the game is all about: make it harder to do that, and you take away the greatest (not the only, the greatest) incentive someone has to play.
Personally, I don't care about the story arcs or badges or clues. If I want to read a comic book, I'll buy one and read it, not try to get that kind of content here. You want the game to be more appealing? Make it easier to level. Encourage teaming by putting more monsters on the streets. Bring back level-appropriate monsters for all levels and in all zones and let people team and level like that. And for people who think leveling that way is "cheating" or "immoral", they can still do their missions.
It's ironic that the zone with the greatest number of monsters is the one that allows the fewest number of participants based on level. And I see as many 50's die in the Hive as I saw 5's die at the hands of Winter Lord, so what's the difference?
Make PL'ing a valid part of the game concept by creating more monsters and let all players earn their xp by having fun killing something big.
One more thing about monsters: If the rumors about lowering Kraken xp from 50-80k to 5k per kill are true, especially given the debt incurred just getting into and out of that mission, then you're creating yet another empty zone. I would never take another toon into the ASN to kill Krakens as it would simply not be worth it.
IMHO.
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I've noticed the zones less active, too. I came to the game in January and had the most fun I've ever had in it hunting and fighting Winter Lord with a bunch of other people, and leveling at an excellent clip: leveling means new powers, better bad guys and more overall fun. It's simply more fun killing monsters than slogging through missions or street hunts.
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This would be the same Winter Lords regarded as a "mistake" by the devs and cursed by most of the board population? :P
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Level 25's and above have Octo and Ghost Ship, 36's and above have Krakens, and 45's and above have Hamidon, but the newbies and lowbies have nothing equivalent to help them gain xp and other rewards the way higher levels do. It's a shame because leveling is what the game is all about: make it harder to do that, and you take away the greatest (not the only, the greatest) incentive someone has to play.
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Erm...you think those are sources of large amounts of exp? Trust me, no. The Kraken is about the only one of the lot, and that ends with I4- the exp value on the Hatched Krakens will drop, and the Kraken itself wasn't high exp to start with. They ARE fun events, though.
Not to mention, none of those save the Kraken Trial give you temp powers, Hamidon is endgame and the only "loot" on the game. Not that this is going over well now that he's become "farmable" content.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't care about the story arcs or badges or clues. If I want to read a comic book, I'll buy one and read it, not try to get that kind of content here. You want the game to be more appealing? Make it easier to level. Encourage teaming by putting more monsters on the streets. Bring back level-appropriate monsters for all levels and in all zones and let people team and level like that. And for people who think leveling that way is "cheating" or "immoral", they can still do their missions.
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Actually, it was the lack of teamwork and cluelessness that the Winter Lord event produced, including the rude and nasty behavior that makes me pray nothing quite like it ever, ever happens again.
[ QUOTE ]
It's ironic that the zone with the greatest number of monsters is the one that allows the fewest number of participants based on level. And I see as many 50's die in the Hive as I saw 5's die at the hands of Winter Lord, so what's the difference?
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Months later, I was still dealing with the people who leveled up that way and their lack of game knowledge- people who had 10-20 levels on my newbieness at first but had no clue how to actually play the game. A lack of Influence to buy enhancements. In many cases, no idea how the character worked, since all they had to do was 1) Find WL and 2) Hit WL for exp, repeat 1) and 2). Now, the Halloween stuff...that was fun and didn't produce a case of the stupids, either.
[ QUOTE ]
Make PL'ing a valid part of the game concept by creating more monsters and let all players earn their xp by having fun killing something big.
[/ QUOTE ]
Erm....you apparently gauge your exp gain from giant monsters by WL's. Once-ever experience, not going to happen again after the negative effects it produced. You're not going to rake it phat exp dropping the ghosts off the ship or smacking the squid around.
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One more thing about monsters: If the rumors about lowering Kraken xp from 50-80k to 5k per kill are true, especially given the debt incurred just getting into and out of that mission, then you're creating yet another empty zone. I would never take another toon into the ASN to kill Krakens as it would simply not be worth it.
IMHO.
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The rumors are quite true, the change is already on Test, and my hopes are that the Kraken exp was shifted to the completion of the event, since the Hatched Krakens no longer are farmable for unholy levels of experience.
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Why not just put a level limit on PI? 90 % of you power level occurs theres.
[/ QUOTE ]
That just treats a symptom, but it doesn't stop the underlying reasons. It'd keep the PLing out of PI, at which point it'd be moving to somewhere else...missions being farmed.
[/ QUOTE ]
It would also harm the MANY 'working' players who can and should have access there. Same with Portal Corp. Trading one bad idea for a worse one is not the answer.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One more thing about monsters: If the rumors about lowering Kraken xp from 50-80k to 5k per kill are true, especially given the debt incurred just getting into and out of that mission, then you're creating yet another empty zone. I would never take another toon into the ASN to kill Krakens as it would simply not be worth it.
IMHO.
[/ QUOTE ]
The rumors are quite true, the change is already on Test, and my hopes are that the Kraken exp was shifted to the completion of the event, since the Hatched Krakens no longer are farmable for unholy levels of experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
Giving the dev's current batting average, I can almost put good money on this not happening. they will lower the xp of the hatched kraken's, and leave the mission xp the same. Thus eliminating the current traffic that zone has. Most players find the ASN confusing and boring. The only reason they are down there is because of the kraken xp. After that is taken away, all that will go there is badge whores wanting the trial badge. I know lots of people who found the kraken's to be a very "Fun" part of the game, because of the risk -vs- reward. Yet now, those parts are being removed.
Also as a side note, currently on Test, the xp range does effect in missions... I'm hoping this is a bug that will be fixed as I recall statesman saying it wouldnt effect parties in missions.
Of course you're welcome to your opinion, but as noted in a previous post, it's just a game and people who pay to play have as much right to be as "stupid" with their characters - within the rules - as you do to be "smart" with them.
But nevertheless, keep "tweaking" the game in the directon it's going, and I'll simply cancel both my accounts. It's getting as difficult to deal with the time wasted in trying to level as it is in having to deal with some of the effette snobs running around preaching their "gospel" about how the game should be played.
I play to level and try out new builds. The content essentially sucks and the animation for everything from firing a shot to slotting enhancements just wastes more time. How many times does someone need to do Frostfire before they "get it"? I've already run it at least a dozen times. Put something else in the zones to increase the interest level.
FWIW.
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But nevertheless, keep "tweaking" the game in the directon it's going, and I'll simply cancel both my accounts. It's getting as difficult to deal with the time wasted in trying to level as it is in having to deal with some of the effette snobs running around preaching their "gospel" about how the game should be played.
I play to level and try out new builds. The content essentially sucks and the animation for everything from firing a shot to slotting enhancements just wastes more time. How many times does someone need to do Frostfire before they "get it"? I've already run it at least a dozen times. Put something else in the zones to increase the interest level.
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It sounds like it's tough to put out good content at a rate that satisfies someone with those appetites. What kind of new content would increase your interests?
You sound a lot like me after I beat Diablo II- what interested me at that point was build experiments, and anything that prevented this became a "grind". All I wanted to do was get the exp to experiment with my build-of-the-moment. Anything else was frustration. I'd spend a lot of time on the cows level (later on, whereever I could mow down huge numbers of large-exp mobs) and found everything else an annoyance.
It sounds like you're at that point with CoH. Even the animations for attacks and such are getting under your skin and you're still playing? Wow.
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I can't believe that there are still people here who are posting things like, "This won't fix PL'ing, so don't do it!" and "Why bother trying to stop PL'ing?"
Get the point, people: THE DEVS ARE GOING TO DO THIS.
The devs perceive powerleveling to be a problem. Period. No further discussion of whether PL'ing is a problem is necessary.
After over 200 pages of various comments, suggestions, and complaints, the "XP leash/death timer" is still going to be implemented with Issue 4. Period. No alternative strategies for defeating PL'ing are needed.
So, GIVEN these two things -- PL'ing is a problem, and the "XP leash/death timer" is the devs' current solution to the problem -- the ONLY thing that should be concentrated on here is finding whatever "holes" in the solution there are and suggesting patches for them.
[/ QUOTE ] Your logic is flawed. If the devs are going to do this (and I have to agree that is will happen, since I believe the devs have no interest in any playtesting other than seeing if the code works as they plan). There is no point in attempting to find the "holes" since the entire concept is far worse than whatever holes are created.[ QUOTE ]
And along those lines, we also need to focus on what the devs have actually said about how the current solution works.
This is what Statesman has posted:
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has been dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards....
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works....
As long as someone on your team gets XP for a kill, the entire team will get credit towards a Defeat X mission or a Badge count even if they don't get the XP....
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Please take note of the italicized portion, because it's incredibly important. What I interpret the italicized portion to mean is that there is no difference between XP collection in Issue 3 and XP collection in Issue 4 if you are in a mission. In short, the "XP leash/death timer" solution is ONLY being applied to zones.
So, are there any "holes" in the solution as understood according to how the devs have said the solution works?
I have only found one "hole" so far: Giant Monsters in zones. Consider the following scenario:
You enter into a fight with Babbage in Skyway City. You and 50 other heroes are fighting him tooth and nail. You get to the point where Babbage is close to being defeated, and he kills you. If you did NO damage to Babbage during the fight, you now have the following options:
1) Pray that there is a defender around to rez you.
2) Pray that you have an Awaken or that somebody gives you an Awaken.
3) Pray that Babbage is killed within one minute.
4) Pray that you can go to the hospital AND hurry back to within 300' of Babbage before Babbage is defeated.
Since Scrappers and Blasters earn their pay by dealing damage, the scenario above is least likely to affect them. Tankers and Controllers, too, tend to spend at least some of their time on average dealing damage, so this scenario is only a little more likely to affect them. Defenders, of course, are the least likely to deal damage to a Giant Monster since they will be focusing on keeping their teammates alive, so they are the most likely to encounter this scenario. However, my point is that anyone of any AT would would be utterly hosed if the above scenario were to befall them, and I know that if I were to lose out on XP just because I took the alpha hit or I kept my team alive instead of doing damage, I would be beyond insane with rage.
My proposal? The devs should ensure that if you're on a team that fights a Giant Monster in a zone, you are guaranteed your share of the XP from the kill according to current Issue 3 constraints.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't know about babbage but octo XP seems to have been nerfed on test to the point of not being worthwhile on test so I'm not too concerned about that. Since you are under the impression that the devs are going to push towards more missions, then do what the devs are obviously (as you have pointed out) pushing towards and stop playing defenders or controllers. MAYBE when the datamining shows that there are no defenders or controllers left they might change it back ( like so many of issue 3's "features")
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Your logic is flawed. If the devs are going to do this (and I have to agree that is will happen, since I believe the devs have no interest in any playtesting other than seeing if the code works as they plan). There is no point in attempting to find the "holes" since the entire concept is far worse than whatever holes are created.
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I disagree with you. This statement on the Regen thread is why.
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I don't know about babbage but octo XP seems to have been nerfed on test to the point of not being worthwhile on test so I'm not too concerned about that. Since you are under the impression that the devs are going to push towards more missions, then do what the devs are obviously (as you have pointed out) pushing towards and stop playing defenders or controllers. MAYBE when the datamining shows that there are no defenders or controllers left they might change it back ( like so many of issue 3's "features")
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I'd heard nothing about the octopus exp being changed. Where, when how? The only change to exp I'd seen noted was Hatched Krakens.
In any case, I think the leash is a poor control on what the devs want to control. I also feel that it'd be better to go after the root of the problems, rather than trimming them at the top where they'll just grow up in other cracks like a weed.
"I don't know about babbage but octo XP seems to have been nerfed on test to the point of not being worthwhile..."
Yeah, like Krakens: nerf the xp but not the debt. All risk, no reward. What a screwed up solution.
When the game becomes all risk and no reward, no one will play. Fine with me: golf season is starting and I could use some new clubs.
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Your logic is flawed. If the devs are going to do this (and I have to agree that is will happen, since I believe the devs have no interest in any playtesting other than seeing if the code works as they plan). There is no point in attempting to find the "holes" since the entire concept is far worse than whatever holes are created.
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I disagree with you. This statement on the Regen thread is why.
[/ QUOTE ]While that is clearly stated, I am unaware of any change since issue 2 that has been plainly stated as a bad idea by what (at least to me) seemed a majority of posters (at least) were not in favor of and removed as a result. I'll believe it when I see it. I would believe it more if you ( or anyone) can point to a couple or recalled changes (not tweaks)[ QUOTE ]
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I don't know about babbage but octo XP seems to have been nerfed on test to the point of not being worthwhile on test so I'm not too concerned about that. Since you are under the impression that the devs are going to push towards more missions, then do what the devs are obviously (as you have pointed out) pushing towards and stop playing defenders or controllers. MAYBE when the datamining shows that there are no defenders or controllers left they might change it back ( like so many of issue 3's "features")
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I'd heard nothing about the octopus exp being changed. Where, when how? The only change to exp I'd seen noted was Hatched Krakens.
[/ QUOTE ] I tried it on a whim, while testing a respec (which is what I use the test server for) . On live I got around 2k or so, on test I got around 600 ( all per tentacle) with less teams around ( it was just ours). Perhaps it was the amount of damage I did was less (and maybe then less xp) but it seems capped at like 655. [ QUOTE ]
In any case, I think the leash is a poor control on what the devs want to control. I also feel that it'd be better to go after the root of the problems, rather than trimming them at the top where they'll just grow up in other cracks like a weed.
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I think at the root of the problem is the fact that this is not an issue. At best there is a minority complaining about broadcasting tells for PL. The jerks that hit me with SB off the train annoy me far worse than broadcasts. I think that the supposed "lag" reason is nonsense since the "fix" is to have the inactive players active (and my thinking is an inactive players causes less stress on the system then an active one). If the reason was risk vs reward, controllers blasters and defenders would be getting larger xpshares since it's far riskier for them out there then for the averager tanker and scrapper.
The #1 reason a change should be made is because it makes the game more fun. I haven't seen anyone argue that somehow this change makes the game more fun.
With this one minute thing, I hope people don't die where there is no hospital (i.e. Terra Volta, The Hollows) and have to go all the way back...
Is an auto-follow going to be implemented? Might as well with this range thing (especially for support characters as everyone has mentioned)
Super Ero-kawaii - Grv/FF Go Girl - Kin/Rad
Dana Roberts - AR/Dev Choh-oppai - DM/Inv Orangah - Fir/Fir
@Lovely Larose(2 and 3 too!) ---------- #Arc 243518 - Just do it.
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With this one minute thing, I hope people don't die where there is no hospital (i.e. Terra Volta, The Hollows) and have to go all the way back...
Is an auto-follow going to be implemented? Might as well with this range thing (especially for support characters as everyone has mentioned)
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If the leash thing is just like Statesman said, only active outside of missions, then I have no real problem with that. But the death timer is a little ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if there was a timer if it was AT LEAST 5 minutes or so. Five mins isn't anywhere near enough time to work off all your debt, or even half of it usually, but it is definitely enough time to go to the hospital, run back, and start helping again. Or even enough time to let the other people who are still alive kill the mob standing on top of your dead body which is preventing a rez, especially if you don't have someone with recall friend nearby who can tp you to safety. One minute is a ridiculous amount of time, and is way too harsh a penalty for dying. Debt is already a nuisance, but not being able to work off that debt after a minute, or to get back in time to get some decent xp, is moronic.
i don't like the death thing. 1 minute?! that forces the player to rez during battle with an awaken putting them in a bad situation, or go to the hospital and possibly miss out on the boss xp or other unkown xp that can be granted during the interim while making the treck back to the mission.
i don't like the 300ft rule at all. some teams like to split up and take out 50 DEs on a TF or what have you. the TEAM should get credit if they are IN THE ZONE. this makes everyone play a certain way leaving out all aspects of ingenuity and creativeness that can be derived from the game.
300ft rule also makes it tough for teams when badge hunting. this will make teams work a lot harder for a badge than what is necessary.
these rules just don't seem right. forcing people to play a certain way by limiting their movements.
i want both rules taken off. i don't see any benefit or reason why these rules are to be implemented. if Stateman can say why he is doing this, then i will ease up. he has yet to say anything in regards to the purpose of these rules. he is just throwing it out there like freakin pig slop and some of you are eating up without asking what is in this?!
- Matanza
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While that is clearly stated, I am unaware of any change since issue 2 that has been plainly stated as a bad idea by what (at least to me) seemed a majority of posters (at least) were not in favor of and removed as a result. I'll believe it when I see it. I would believe it more if you ( or anyone) can point to a couple or recalled changes (not tweaks)
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This one's dirt simple. The patch that boosted 25+ level bosses. It was rolled back to pre-patch after squishy AT's complained en masse about the massive difficulty boost this produced (though as a slider option, maybe it'd give some of the non-squishy types a challenge). If you didn't call that a major change, you weren't one of the folks faceplanting repeatedly trying to do missions.
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I tried it on a whim, while testing a respec (which is what I use the test server for) . On live I got around 2k or so, on test I got around 600 ( all per tentacle) with less teams around ( it was just ours). Perhaps it was the amount of damage I did was less (and maybe then less xp) but it seems capped at like 655.
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If that's true, it's a Bad Thing. You can't "farm" the octopus for experience- it's a random event, with attacks that can drop people easily (including Toxic damage, a truly joyous type for SO many powersets). You're not going to powerlevel people whacking the thing. Sweet rewards (excellent exp) should be coming from things that aren't easily repeated. If Krakens got a big dose of exp from -finishing- it rather than putting the reward in where it was easily repeated over and over again...it's not broken or abuseable.
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In any case, I think the leash is a poor control on what the devs want to control. I also feel that it'd be better to go after the root of the problems, rather than trimming them at the top where they'll just grow up in other cracks like a weed.
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I think at the root of the problem is the fact that this is not an issue. At best there is a minority complaining about broadcasting tells for PL. The jerks that hit me with SB off the train annoy me far worse than broadcasts. I think that the supposed "lag" reason is nonsense since the "fix" is to have the inactive players active (and my thinking is an inactive players causes less stress on the system then an active one). If the reason was risk vs reward, controllers blasters and defenders would be getting larger xpshares since it's far riskier for them out there then for the averager tanker and scrapper.
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As far as Tankers/Scrappers go, the way mobs work now make scaling for them tougher (and at least now, scaling in favor of those AT's) than for squishy types. I'd wonder about saying pet-level powersets being at higher risk (though pre-32, certainly).
I think powerleveling is a problem from my experiences elsewhere on MMORPG's. I've been "uber". I've done my share of the big stuff on other games- raiding, camping the uber mobs, keying for areas. I've seen what happens when a playerbase shoves their way to the top and then expects everything new to show up there. It creates immense pressure to focus all development on the top levels of the game and "benign neglect" of the lower level ones. The game becomes intensely top-heavy, and PLing stops being a choice, but a need if you want to "escape" to the fun part of the game.
That demand kills games. But likewise, a game that makes it's trademark "tough" encounters lack a decent reward bogs it down into a grindfest...and that hurts a game too. Right now, I think both the leash and blind-cutting monster exp on a random, non-farmable encounter (if it is indeed so)...sucks. I think simply cutting Kraken exp instead of changing the reward to reflect completing the trial is a bad idea, too. Tough stuff should be rewarded. One-time exceptional rewards for them are good. That makes you WANT to go after the tough stuff, to dig into the content instead of powerleveling.
It's like the Nemesis Staff. Sweet deal for 5 days. Abuseable if you can farm it repeatedly and have a staff constantly.
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The #1 reason a change should be made is because it makes the game more fun. I haven't seen anyone argue that somehow this change makes the game more fun.
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Agreed. This change makes the game -less- fun. That's why I suggested an alternative myself. I'd rather see exp absorption (which worked well in other games I played in) introduced than a constant stream of manipulating exp in encounters as fast as players turn them into farming exercises, rather than something to play on the way up and have fun. I'd like to see mobs made challenging for the powersets/AT's that aren't being challenged at all. I -don't- want to see powersets being nerfed. I think the environment is what needs work far more than the powersets from a balance perspective, though there are flaws there too (Blaster secondaries? DA end costs?).
Otherwise, I vote we make a zone of nothing but giant, demonic cows you can mow (moo?) down for super-uber exp all the way to 50th. I'd feel right at home with people PLing there. :P
Late to the party but wanted to chime in. Disliked the original proposal, but this is good. I can think of situations where it's still an unintended penalty, but they no longer overwhelm the benefits. Cheers on the change.
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
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That's not a reasonable set of limitations to place on Defenders and Controllers (or even Tankers).
A Mind Controller might put the whole crowd of MoBs to sleep (doing no damage), and then get killed by the Boss who she failed to affect. By the time the team kills the boss a minute has elapsed and she gets no XP, even though she neutralized all of the minions for most of the fight.
As an Empathy Defender I might help my team survive for most of a long battle, then fall in combat withouit ever doing any damage. If I am down more than a minute I get no XP for the team's final success, even though my efforts kept them alive long enough to achieve it.
The damage requirement is very slanted toward the attack-oriented classes and insults the contributions of support classes.
I would be very irritated to see this set of parameters go live.
BB
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.
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That's not a reasonable set of limitations to place on Defenders and Controllers (or even Tankers).
A Mind Controller might put the whole crowd of MoBs to sleep (doing no damage), and then get killed by the Boss who she failed to affect. By the time the team kills the boss a minute has elapsed and she gets no XP, even though she neutralized all of the minions for most of the fight.
As an Empathy Defender I might help my team survive for most of a long battle, then fall in combat withouit ever doing any damage. If I am down more than a minute I get no XP for the team's final success, even though my efforts kept them alive long enough to achieve it.
The damage requirement is very slanted toward the attack-oriented classes and insults the contributions of support classes.
I would be very irritated to see this set of parameters go live.
BB
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Non damage ATs are an after thought, it seems that that has always been the case here. Maybe they should think of craetive ways to reward ATs based on thier main function.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
I can't believe that there are still people here who are posting things like, "This won't fix PL'ing, so don't do it!" and "Why bother trying to stop PL'ing?"
Get the point, people: THE DEVS ARE GOING TO DO THIS.
The devs perceive powerleveling to be a problem. Period. No further discussion of whether PL'ing is a problem is necessary.
After over 200 pages of various comments, suggestions, and complaints, the "XP leash/death timer" is still going to be implemented with Issue 4. Period. No alternative strategies for defeating PL'ing are needed.
So, GIVEN these two things -- PL'ing is a problem, and the "XP leash/death timer" is the devs' current solution to the problem -- the ONLY thing that should be concentrated on here is finding whatever "holes" in the solution there are and suggesting patches for them.
And along those lines, we also need to focus on what the devs have actually said about how the current solution works.
This is what Statesman has posted:
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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has been dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards....
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works....
As long as someone on your team gets XP for a kill, the entire team will get credit towards a Defeat X mission or a Badge count even if they don't get the XP....
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Please take note of the italicized portion, because it's incredibly important. What I interpret the italicized portion to mean is that there is no difference between XP collection in Issue 3 and XP collection in Issue 4 if you are in a mission. In short, the "XP leash/death timer" solution is ONLY being applied to zones.
So, are there any "holes" in the solution as understood according to how the devs have said the solution works?
I have only found one "hole" so far: Giant Monsters in zones. Consider the following scenario:
You enter into a fight with Babbage in Skyway City. You and 50 other heroes are fighting him tooth and nail. You get to the point where Babbage is close to being defeated, and he kills you. If you did NO damage to Babbage during the fight, you now have the following options:
1) Pray that there is a defender around to rez you.
2) Pray that you have an Awaken or that somebody gives you an Awaken.
3) Pray that Babbage is killed within one minute.
4) Pray that you can go to the hospital AND hurry back to within 300' of Babbage before Babbage is defeated.
Since Scrappers and Blasters earn their pay by dealing damage, the scenario above is least likely to affect them. Tankers and Controllers, too, tend to spend at least some of their time on average dealing damage, so this scenario is only a little more likely to affect them. Defenders, of course, are the least likely to deal damage to a Giant Monster since they will be focusing on keeping their teammates alive, so they are the most likely to encounter this scenario. However, my point is that anyone of any AT would would be utterly hosed if the above scenario were to befall them, and I know that if I were to lose out on XP just because I took the alpha hit or I kept my team alive instead of doing damage, I would be beyond insane with rage.
My proposal? The devs should ensure that if you're on a team that fights a Giant Monster in a zone, you are guaranteed your share of the XP from the kill according to current Issue 3 constraints.
One last note: From the I5 changes to XP debt, it is clear that the devs are pushing people toward missions harder than ever before, so you should expect that any complaint such as, "I can't street hunt effectively anymore!" is going to fall on deaf ears. Just accept it: You're going to have to change your orientation from street-hunting to mission-farming. The devs want people to play missions. It's as simple as that. So stop whining, form an 8-man team, crank the mission slider up to Impossible, and start wiping out hordes of enemies whose sole purpose in life is to level you up like crazy.
NewScrapper