Okay, first of all, as I understand it, a level 10 SKed up to 30 does not make the same amount of XP as a regular level 30. If a 30 makes, say... 200 XP off a kill, the 10 might only make 20. That XP in RELATION to their relative levels is roughly the same. Now what is different is that at low levels, the amount of XP needed to gain your next level is smaller. That's it. You will still make 1 - 5 as fast killing blue mobs your level as you would killing blue level-30 mobs. The key difference is that variety of tactics/enhancements one can employ at higher levels allows a party to be MORE EFFECTIVE overall. For instance, I would level just as crazily fast (and did) with my then level 12 FF defender and his spines-scrapper partner in Perez park with Hyrdas, as I did with my level 13 invuln Tanker who was the backbone of a level 43 Malta mission. So what are you proposing to protect that tanker who was all that was keeping that level 43 mission standing? It sounds an awful lot like you're scheming to make life harder for him just because he's 13 and not 33, and screw the SK concept overall (which is the A-1 thing I absolutely hate about most plans to 'conquer' powerleveling).
If I am misunderstanding how you intend for such a scenario to play out, by all means, correct me.
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Okay, first of all, as I understand it, a level 10 SKed up to 30 does not make the same amount of XP as a regular level 30. If a 30 makes, say... 200 XP off a kill, the 10 might only make 20. That XP in RELATION to their relative levels is roughly the same. Now what is different is that at low levels, the amount of XP needed to gain your next level is smaller. That's it. You will still make 1 - 5 as fast killing blue mobs your level as you would killing blue level-30 mobs. The key difference is that variety of tactics/enhancements one can employ at higher levels allows a party to be MORE EFFECTIVE overall. For instance, I would level just as crazily fast (and did) with my then level 12 FF defender and his spines-scrapper partner in Perez park with Hyrdas, as I did with my level 13 invuln Tanker who was the backbone of a level 43 Malta mission. So what are you proposing to protect that tanker who was all that was keeping that level 43 mission standing? It sounds an awful lot like you're scheming to make life harder for him just because he's 13 and not 33, and screw the SK concept overall (which is the A-1 thing I absolutely hate about most plans to 'conquer' powerleveling).
If I am misunderstanding how you intend for such a scenario to play out, by all means, correct me.
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You're gaining exp at a normal rate for your level. Great. You'll absorb that exp at the same rate. You're contributing to a mission, you're going to gain the fair share of your exp.
OTOH, if someone's herding an entire mission repeatedly to -exceed- that rate...cause odds are, your 13th level guy even SKed isn't going to coldcock 60+ blue/white mobs in seconds- you'll grind to a halt faster. Higher level players are capable of killing X mobs more effectively than lower level ones. It's only in a situation where you're exceeding what you'd be able to normally do exp-wise in the first place that you're going to end up over the limit.
If you're doing a rate of exp gain that whether SK'ed or not that's equivalent to what you'd do in a party of your "natural" level, nothing to fear. You wouldn't notice a thing.
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OTOH, if someone's herding an entire mission repeatedly to -exceed- that rate...cause odds are, your 13th level guy even SKed isn't going to coldcock 60+ blue/white mobs in seconds- you'll grind to a halt faster. Higher level players are capable of killing X mobs more effectively than lower level ones. It's only in a situation where you're exceeding what you'd be able to normally do exp-wise in the first place that you're going to end up over the limit.
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Is this a rate per second? Rate per hour? Day? All the talk of 'natural' rates seems very highly subjective and fuzzy at this point. Sufficient for me to feel leery of your suggestion as it stands, anyway.
If you're trying to break herding (which is as much a powergamer's tactic as a powerleveler's) you need to either break aggro patterns or collision, while at the same time lowering AOE spheres. That way you would never GET 60+ whites/blues in one place, and couldn't drop them all at once even if you could.
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Is this a rate per second? Rate per hour? Day? All the talk of 'natural' rates seems very highly subjective and fuzzy at this point. Sufficient for me to feel leery of your suggestion as it stands, anyway.
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Have a bar that drains down per "tic" and fills as you gain experience. Just like Stamina and Endurance, bonuses (teaming up,TF,etc.) would decrease the time between tics. The ability to gain exp would recover constantly- and as you leveled up, each "tic" would equal a larger gulp of experience points being absorbed.
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If you're trying to break herding (which is as much a powergamer's tactic as a powerleveler's) you need to either break aggro patterns or collision, while at the same time lowering AOE spheres. That way you would never GET 60+ whites/blues in one place, and couldn't drop them all at once even if you could.
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Personally, I think the ability to dump 60+ mobs in a dumpster is a problem. Whether Statesman and the devs do would be up to them in determining how much exp someone should be gaining (with room to manuever) at any given level. If too many targets aggro on a single target, after X number of mobs, the rest should stick to a "stand and shoot at range" tactic instead of mindlessly attempting to melee (though they should still have aggro, as long as something doesn't distract them).
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Based on data from the Training Room and feedback on the forums, we will be making the following changes to how XP, Influence and other drops are divided:
If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
Well be putting the distance and mission map changes up on the Training Room soon (week or so) to see how it plays out.
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works.
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Hey.. why not just make afk = 0 exp and toss away this awkward system. Do I powerlevel? No, but many a time I have been eating concrete while the person on the team with rez takes his sweet time to get around to giving me the kip up. Now I get to eat concrete and loose out on exp? Thanks Statesman!
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Have a bar that drains down per "tic" and fills as you gain experience. Just like Stamina and Endurance, bonuses (teaming up,TF,etc.) would decrease the time between tics. The ability to gain exp would recover constantly- and as you leveled up, each "tic" would equal a larger gulp of experience points being absorbed.
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From a functional standpoint that might work. The fundamental problem (as I see it) is that I believe that by and large, powerleveling is bunk: that it is the Loch Ness Monster of CoH, and that we are all delivering Sasquatch's cybernetic babies, when we try to discuss 'powerleveling'. To that end, I need to develop some testing just to see if there really is any appreciable difference in the earning of PLing vs. Powergaming (i.e. legitimate, working players who are maximizing their XP earning by playing exceptionally smart/well) and then maybe compare those to less-idealized play. Powergamers will always outperform mediocre ones, but it will be interesting to see what kind of a gap there is between them and Average Joe Player versus the 'PowerLeveler.'
(I don't know that I've stated it here, but I assert that PLing is less a mechanical issue than one of human nature. Which is why any mechanical fix that doesn't impact exceptionally good teams/players will not show a demonstrable decrease in what people perceive as powerleveling, because the mechanics for both are very similar if not identical)
oh well since my thread was locked <mutter> will post what i said in it here..
Now i speak from a casual players point of view. As well as a bit of a PLer's point of view.
Ive been playing since two weeks after CoH's release, and i played as a fire/rad controller. Back then, PLing wasnt too popular as a good large chunk of the player base (as well as the first wave of 50's) did the missions, story-arcs, and the grind in general to get to lvl50 and reach the end point of the game.
While i my self enjoyed doing most of the missions, tfs, story arcs and so forth. Like any mmo anyones played for a long time, the grind does eventually get old. There comes a point where, you have done the same missions atleast half a dozen times already or more. This is especially the case if your an alt-aholic like my self, where youve returned the Jewel of Hera for the 20th time! (shes always losing her jewels... -_-)
Its just simply not fun...
I realise efforts were made in previous issues to fix this problem, giving lowbie missions and missions youve already done, a make over in appearance. But big deal, so the CoT hired a home decorator and got their cave all spiffied out, its still that same old jewel of hera.
Ontop of that, after reaching lvl50, collecting my badges etc, clearing out all my high level missions, I find my self often thinking, boy i wish i was this AT, or picked this powerset, or wish i could see how powerful this build for a different AT would be. Then i stop and look at all the grinding, the missions ive already done half a dozen times, the TF's id have to sit through for hours upon hours, etc, in order to get to where my main is. And i ask my self, do i really want to spend 3-5+ months getting to this point again? Would it even be worth it in the end, would that character be as wonderful as i think it will be?
In my opinion, i feel this is the reason PLing started in the first place, but should a person be punished for pling? I dont feel they should.
On the flip side, as i stated above, im an alt-aholic, and i love making concept characters, for rping or otherwise. PLers have never truely bothered me, not because i do it my self, but simply because they dont effect my characters in any way shape or form. They may brag about how they reached lvl50 in 5 days, but big deal? until they start pesturing me about how Uber l33t they are, i dont care, and at that point, id simply put them on the ignore list, problem solved.
Thankfully not all PLers are like that, ive actually come to meet quite a few great and friendly people that pl. Yet based on most of the posts within the origin xp change thread, PL'ers are hated and looked upon with distaste by the casual players.
Now as far as these up-coming changes are concerned, i think they are a bad idea all together. Like some already stated, it hinders the casual players more than it helps. And in turn, it also promotes more PLing. Now Statesman, if you intend to put an end to PLing, or lessen it to any variable degree, this change is not the answer.
Instead, i propose a few ideas.
For one, new missions for lvls1-50. NO, not "better looking" missions, not an extra torch on the wall here and there. But completely new and fresh missions players have never done before. This will effect your game in three ways. Firstly and most importantly, it will encourage higher levels to do the grind completely, from lvl1-50 because there will be new and refreshing missions they havent already done 20 times already. Striga Isle was a step in the right direction, quite a few 50's hopped onto alts and did the missions/tf's there and enjoyed it quite a bit, right along with the casual players. 2: more missions would add to your overall content, more content as good, who disagree's? and 3: everyone would love new and refreshing missions. Please RESCUE US from having to save Hera's Jewel a 20th time....
Another idea, is to give players the option, once they have reached lvl50, to create a character and auto level it up to a specific point in the game. I feel lvl32 is an appropriate point, for one its when you get your very last primary power, your character starts coming into their own, and you realise your true potential as a super hero. Now i know someone is just waiting to ask, "How would this be a good thing? Now instead of plers all hanging out in PI theyll be in every zone from brickstown and up!"
Well id like to counter that question with, "How is it worse than a lvl1-3 in PI begging to get PLed while they sit near ghost falcon or the ferry?" Better yet, "How is it a bad thing that now lvl50's will group with casual players with their alts because they dont have to do most of the grind. How is it bad that theyll group with you now, instead of heading to PI and getting PLed from 1-50 by their friends and SG mates?
-edit-
And before i posted this i only read the first few pages so if any of this was already said then sorry hehe ^_^
ya'll need to shudup quit whinnin and just play the damn game worry about yourself and not what others do let them do their own thing if you insist on being a moron about every little thing then mauybe you shouldnt play.
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I think you missunderstood my idea on training.
Let me rephrase it.
lvl 1-5 - atlas or galaxy
lvl 1-15 - atlas, galaxy and now KR
lvl 1 - 20 Atlas, Galaxy, KR, sky, steel
lvl 1-25 Atlas, Galaxy, KR, sky, steel, talos, IP
get the idea?
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so i happen to be a 4 sking to a 50 in pi so i have to make the journey all the way back to atlas or galaxy? [censored] that... all its gonna do is annoy the people playing like that... so what if i have friends that want to play with me in pi while im on a new toon.. we should be hindered? i dont think so
its bad enough getting around without a travel power... try having to trek back to AP or GC from PI because youre just simply sking... oh and youll most likely gain 2+ levels in a single mission that way too... whats wrong with being an sk and actually getting good xp like that? i mean its just normal per kill but more kills... and its enough trouble for the group and its only adding more trouble for people like that... regardless of how insignificant you view the group its still a significant factor
I bet some people have already stated this so don't get mad at me I just want to put in my input.
I do think this will slove PLer problems but your basically punishing some hunting parties. I know a few people who like to spread out when they hunt (its more effective) and your basically not gonna let these people who like to do that not do it any more..?
Also about the timer on the death...What is like a fire tanker(or what ever) attacked every single foe the team is fighting and he dies and the team is fighting the left over foes for more then a minute? Does he get any xp?
I think its a good tempary solution but I personally dont think its going to work for ever.
I totally agree with Lady-Jane 100% I dont see how pling hurts other people... If the people dont want to pl then make then use the /ignore command. I am still going with my orginal taughts on this you are going to be the one punishing everyone including the people who aren't being pled ( i don't support plers at all but i dont believe this is the best solution to slove this)
Thanks statesman
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From a functional standpoint that might work. The fundamental problem (as I see it) is that I believe that by and large, powerleveling is bunk: that it is the Loch Ness Monster of CoH, and that we are all delivering Sasquatch's cybernetic babies, when we try to discuss 'powerleveling'. To that end, I need to develop some testing just to see if there really is any appreciable difference in the earning of PLing vs. Powergaming (i.e. legitimate, working players who are maximizing their XP earning by playing exceptionally smart/well) and then maybe compare those to less-idealized play. Powergamers will always outperform mediocre ones, but it will be interesting to see what kind of a gap there is between them and Average Joe Player versus the 'PowerLeveler.'
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I'm of the belief that there are patterns in play that differ between powergaming (been there, done that) and powerleveling (which tends to be a far, far more passive deal for the PL'ed than any powergamer's).
I've sat there with alts going at a mission chain I know from experience, full bore, bang bang bang and racking up exp like mad. I've had someone try and PL an alt too while I was doing it. Two AR/Eng Blasters, started at the same time, within about an hour and a half of play time of each other.
The exp gain for the PL was superior, on the order of a few level's worth in the teens. Why? Because higher level characters have more tools for gathering experience. Using those to benefit a lower level player results in exp gain above and beyond what they could do on their own, or even with a normal team. Also, because of lower risk. I certainly had a chance of faceplanting. He never did. Thus, unless I was perfect at playing (and even then, I know I croaked once thanks to someone's L30+ Freakshow ambush running me over), I'd have debt to repay, which would slow me a bit too. Part of what makes a powerlevel so effective is, the gain is utterly without risk. Zero. Therefore, you enjoy the full rewards of more-than-optimal play without any penalty whatsoever.
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(I don't know that I've stated it here, but I assert that PLing is less a mechanical issue than one of human nature. Which is why any mechanical fix that doesn't impact exceptionally good teams/players will not show a demonstrable decrease in what people perceive as powerleveling, because the mechanics for both are very similar if not identical)
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Close. But not quite. The experience gained from powerleveling is an artificially generated optimal environment for the PL'ed, and no matter how good the powergamer is, reality usually means the powergamer cannot sustain the same results for as long a period of time.
Ive been trying to follow this and trying to see it from all sides, so I guess Ill add my 2 cents.
First off this whole player x stands someplace safe and doesnt do anything and gets XP
ok tell me how that is different from player X cast group invis on party and all stand there while the tanks herds and the blaster novas
while the 6 other player dont do a thing, ohhh wait they where within 300 feet so the where helping out by being close
.
The range thing is meaningless and wont stop anything.
Next off the you have been dead to long timer is just unfair. Team x is doing a mission in the hollows and has to run across the zone to the mission entrance. They decide to fight on the way and Player A and Player B dies. The defender decides to rez Player A because they are friends or in the same SG or whatever. Player A is back up and the team asks how long before the defender can rez Player B 2+ mins. The team decides to keep fighting their way to the mission and Player B can bounce to the hospital and catch up. Player B comes back into the hollows but now his team is half way across the zone. He now runs through the zone trying not to die again to catch up, mean while he is not getting rid of any debt, however Player A is almost out of debt, but hasnt done anything but stay within 300 ft. Hasnt attacked or buffed, just stood there and worked of debt. Someone tell me how this is fair to Player B? It isnt.
You want to solve the PL problem (still not sure what the problem is here) and the risk versus reward? I have come up with the perfect solution. Ready, sitting down and taking notes? Good here we go
1) Get rid of sidekicking. No SKing means 90% of the Pling goes away. Oh and if you want to play with your friend but he isnt high enough level to group with you
..Tough tell that slacker to start playing more he has to work for those levels baby.
2) All member of a group must be within 5 levels of each other. Hey it worked just fine for the first 20 levels. So what if its harder to find a group now, you can smile while waiting to fill that last slot knowing that no one out there is getting XP that they dont deserve.
3) You stop gaining XP and Inf the second you drop. None of this leaching XP & Inf for a full min. Thats a min you could have been using to get back to the party and helping out
.shame on you.
4) In order to get XP and Inf, you must do damage to the mob. No holds and roots dont count. No more of this Im just a defender, I just buff and heal Nope not good enough, if you arent in the fight attacking then you are leaching and trying to get something for nothing
No damage = No XP got it? Good.
Now you see these 4 simple steps can make everyone happy. Wait, whats that? You say you dont like these steps. To harsh you say
.I see, will there is one more thing you can try its a radical idea, it may be hard to grasp
are you sure you want me to tell you? Ok you asked for it
..
Stop crying about things that dont affect you. You play the game your way and let other do the same.
Wow that would be so simple it just might work
.
In case anyone is interested, here are the current standings in the "just for grins" Death and XP vote:
Those in favor of a "death-timer" option: 8
Those in favor of a "death-exemp" option: 4
Those in favor of some alternative option: 0
NewScrapper
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Personally, I think the ability to dump 60+ mobs in a dumpster is a problem.
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I constantly use that tactic when teaming, specifically to get all the mobs within a tightly-packed area so I can keep them all aggro'd with Taunt. Once aggro'd in that area, the team may open fire, but until then I really can't be a proper meatshield nor can I guarantee anyone's safety. I do this with a few mobs or many, depending on the team's overall level of competence, sometimes the whole mission's worth. It's just a yummy side effect that afterwards all you need is AoEs to kill the now completely aggro'd(on me) mobs too. I absolutely hate it when someone who is not a tank, aggro's the mobs in a mission before aggro has been properly acquired, and then expects the tank to save their hide. I will /kick or suggest it to the leader if the person does that *and* complains when they die. One or the other, but doing both is beligerance, and is behavior worthy of kickage, not our pity for them being so dumb. It is not safe to attack/hold/debuff until the tank has the mobs where he feels he can hold enough of them to save lives after the attacks/holds/debuffs commence. It is always better for all the mobs to be in one spot when trying to hold aggro throughout a battle, at least until Taunt works differently that is.
This is also as valid a tactic for a solo powergamer as it is for a blatant SK/Bridge powerleveler as it is for teams running missions. This is how people used to(in the "old days") get to 50 by doing only missions, and in good time, despite the fact you come up millions of xp short without some farming in your career. I believe if you're solo, you can't be powerleveling someone else and your gameplay should not be the target of any half-cocked fixes. Just because it is valid tactic for both PLers and PGers alike, doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
I regularly farm my missions with my tank(L27) when no one else is around. For the 1-out-of-5 farmables I get, I herd the entire map into one spot and crush them, wash, rinse, repeat usually until I outlevel the mission. Cheating myself? No. I am covering all my streetsweeping, on my own, inside my own missions, and still do not miss out on arcs/contacts/mishes. I am closing the xp gap left open if I'd chose to do each and every mission only for the completion bonuses.
The new leash gives me even more reason to stick to soloing inside missions, and farming missions when possible. QuadSoloing, or Scooby Dooing, *was* the only type of streetsweeping that was up to my rather high xp/hour standards. I never just get on a team and hunt "whatever", it's just not fun for me, rather frustrating, especially when I know there's something better I could be doing.
I have tried killing one or two mobs at a time, and besides being boring and worth 0% challenge value to a tank, it is incredibly slow to boot. My way = 10 minutes. Not my way = 30 minutes. My way only offers the xp bonus once, but I get a 3-for-1 xp:time ratio on any mobs inside the mission. The way missions are spawned presents nothing more than timesink for a solo tank. If I can handle the entire Invincible-difficulty mission's mobs in one herd, how could 2-3 ever be a challenge? The biggest challenge for me is dealing with the endurance downtime, which is a challenge of one's patience, not one's skill nor experience. In fact, I would go as far as to say the latter is a total and utter waste of *any* skill or experience one might have.
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If too many targets aggro on a single target, after X number of mobs, the rest should stick to a "stand and shoot at range" tactic instead of mindlessly attempting to melee (though they should still have aggro, as long as something doesn't distract them).
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Mobs already have this mechanism built into their combat AI. It doesn't matter in the least, and here's why:
Line of Sight. LoS is the reason why this doesn't work. I herd frequently, and there are always a good third of the mobs that *will* "stand and shoot at range", but if you just run around a corner or jump into a dumpster, etc., the mobs will come to you and pile up to regain their LoS. They will jump up onto the edge of the dumpster, and then proceed to attack with ranged weapons despite the fact they are 2ft. away.
Are you sure you've ever actually seen someone herding? I mean, it's obvious that it already works that way if you have. Tanks always "run and hide" while herding, not because they are in danger but because they are trying to get the mobs to gather for the AoEs. Mobs in melee mode will always close to attack, but ranged buggers need to be unable to see you for you to get them to follow. The way a tank will aggro, run and hide, aggro, run and hide pretty much negates any type of response from the mobs, save for them just all dropping their aggro at once. Even then, it would be easy enough to reacquire sufficient aggro in a few seconds, if they're already grouped in a herd.
Sometimes, certain mobs will always use their ranged instead of melee, you just have to be smarter than what you're dealing with if you want to herd them. Some mobs, like Vahz Cadavres, and any of the BP husks, are notoriously horrible for herding because they can't keep up like other mobs can and you lose aggro alot easier because it takes them twice as long to get to the "spot". I call them unfarmable and missions with those mobs inside are only worth their completion bonus to me. I always let out a "doh" when I get a Banished Pantheon mission-bearing contact. Maybe all mobs should be fixed so they're just like cadavres and husks to crush my buzz altogether.
"Bad! Bad gamer! You're affecting everyone else's gameplay by making them look like slackers! How many times do I have to tell you? Play like they do or be nerfed into submission!"
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Stop crying about things that dont affect you. You play the game your way and let other do the same.
Wow that would be so simple it just might work
.
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I don't understand your logic. The whole first part of your post was a legitimate complain about how its unfair for player B to not get xp and pay off debt, while his friend does get xp because he was rezzed in time, and within range. To me it sounded like you are wondering why the first player should get xp while the unlucky second one doesn't even tho he has probably contributed about as much.
But then, in your suggestions (which I think are ridiculously harsh btw), you seem to completely change your mind and ask for things like no xp or inf after dying, or getting rid of sidekicking (are you insane?!). This doesn't make any sense to me. What exactly are you trying to suggest or get accross?
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Personally, I think the ability to dump 60+ mobs in a dumpster is a problem.
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I constantly use that tactic when teaming, specifically to get all the mobs within a tightly-packed area so I can keep them all aggro'd with Taunt. Once aggro'd in that area, the team may open fire, but until then I really can't be a proper meatshield nor can I guarantee anyone's safety. I do this with a few mobs or many, depending on the team's overall level of competence, sometimes the whole mission's worth.
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There's the problem. You can do that with the entire mission's worth. You can lock an entire mission's worth of mobs on you at once. You can then Burn Patch/AE them to death in one easy application. Zero risk. Maximum reward.
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It's just a yummy side effect that afterwards all you need is AoEs to kill the now completely aggro'd(on me) mobs too. I absolutely hate it when someone who is not a tank, aggro's the mobs in a mission before aggro has been properly acquired, and then expects the tank to save their hide. I will /kick or suggest it to the leader if the person does that *and* complains when they die. One or the other, but doing both is beligerance, and is behavior worthy of kickage, not our pity for them being so dumb. It is not safe to attack/hold/debuff until the tank has the mobs where he feels he can hold enough of them to save lives after the attacks/holds/debuffs commence. It is always better for all the mobs to be in one spot when trying to hold aggro throughout a battle, at least until Taunt works differently that is.
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I've played enough melee types elsewhere to understand the idea of tanking. The problem here is that packing mobs like sardines not only makes it easier for AE's, it makes it trivial to control large groups of mobs, period. They all stick nice and close, everyone's in your punchvoke aura, and once you got them locked in the sardine tin,nobody's letting them out. Not only does AE damage benefit, so does anything AE or cone-heck, a /Dev Blaster can toddle in, set a Time Bomb, and 15 seconds later you get a gibbed horde of minions. But so will the AE holds, Immobilizes, Fears...all in numbers that infinitely exceed the normal capacity of those attacks to catch without compressing them into a space the lot should suffocate in. You not only gain a massive advantage in aggro control with things as they are- you become a force multiplier. When a Scrapper can use their point-blank narrow-radius cone to drop a few zillion mobs in one shot...when normally it's 2-3...something's wrong. A herd turns my Frost Breath from a "damage one group" to "Let's pump it up to max and see if I can wipe the whole map clear in one shot".
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I regularly farm my missions with my tank(L27) when no one else is around. For the 1-out-of-5 farmables I get, I herd the entire map into one spot and crush them, wash, rinse, repeat usually until I outlevel the mission. Cheating myself? No. I am covering all my streetsweeping, on my own, inside my own missions, and still do not miss out on arcs/contacts/mishes. I am closing the xp gap left open if I'd chose to do each and every mission only for the completion bonuses.
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This tells me something's wrong on the mob side of things.
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The new leash gives me even more reason to stick to soloing inside missions, and farming missions when possible. QuadSoloing, or Scooby Dooing, *was* the only type of streetsweeping that was up to my rather high xp/hour standards. I never just get on a team and hunt "whatever", it's just not fun for me, rather frustrating, especially when I know there's something better I could be doing.
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I'm not for the leash either. Frankly, it's ineffective and annoying, and that's about all it seems to be good at.
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I have tried killing one or two mobs at a time, and besides being boring and worth 0% challenge value to a tank, it is incredibly slow to boot. My way = 10 minutes. Not my way = 30 minutes. My way only offers the xp bonus once, but I get a 3-for-1 xp:time ratio on any mobs inside the mission. The way missions are spawned presents nothing more than timesink for a solo tank. If I can handle the entire Invincible-difficulty mission's mobs in one herd, how could 2-3 ever be a challenge? The biggest challenge for me is dealing with the endurance downtime, which is a challenge of one's patience, not one's skill nor experience. In fact, I would go as far as to say the latter is a total and utter waste of *any* skill or experience one might have.
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No offense, but if that isn't a shining example of something being -wrong- with an AT vs. Environment...when the -entire population- of an Invincible-level mission at ONCE isn't a threat...that means there isn't any risk to the Tanker in question. Not that the Tanker needs to be nerfed- but the mobs need better attacks to deal with the tank. I'm guessing from the level, we're talking Fire tanking here?
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If too many targets aggro on a single target, after X number of mobs, the rest should stick to a "stand and shoot at range" tactic instead of mindlessly attempting to melee (though they should still have aggro, as long as something doesn't distract them).
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Mobs already have this mechanism built into their combat AI. It doesn't matter in the least, and here's why:
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*notes about LoS, point-blank ranged shots deleted*
Add in a loss of control. If you've got that many mobs targeting you, your ability to taunt them ALL should be impaired. They (of these, some or all at once) should scatter, back off and LOSE aggro, target other heroes in range- basically, if you're covered in too many bad guys, the other bad guys should be doing something else BUT trying to hump your leg with ranged attacks.
As it stands, you have the unlimited capacity to hold mobs on you until they are capable of overloading your defenses- and as you stated, you are capable of taking an entire Invincible mission's worth of mobs on those defenses and not blinking twice.
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Are you sure you've ever actually seen someone herding? I mean, it's obvious that it already works that way if you have. Tanks always "run and hide" while herding, not because they are in danger but because they are trying to get the mobs to gather for the AoEs. Mobs in melee mode will always close to attack, but ranged buggers need to be unable to see you for you to get them to follow. The way a tank will aggro, run and hide, aggro, run and hide pretty much negates any type of response from the mobs, save for them just all dropping their aggro at once. Even then, it would be easy enough to reacquire sufficient aggro in a few seconds, if they're already grouped in a herd.
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Yep, see it done. It's broken only because the Tank can hold so much aggro at once- his "aggro list" seems to be infinite.
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Sometimes, certain mobs will always use their ranged instead of melee, you just have to be smarter than what you're dealing with if you want to herd them. Some mobs, like Vahz Cadavres, and any of the BP husks, are notoriously horrible for herding because they can't keep up like other mobs can and you lose aggro alot easier because it takes them twice as long to get to the "spot". I call them unfarmable and missions with those mobs inside are only worth their completion bonus to me. I always let out a "doh" when I get a Banished Pantheon mission-bearing contact. Maybe all mobs should be fixed so they're just like cadavres and husks to crush my buzz altogether.
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Actually, making mob responses to taunting more unpredicatable once the number aggroed gets too high would be wonderful. Making hordes of mobs a threat over time to a Tanker like yourself would be better.
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"Bad! Bad gamer! You're affecting everyone else's gameplay by making them look like slackers! How many times do I have to tell you? Play like they do or be nerfed into submission!"
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Heck no. But if you're farming Invincible missions with zero challenge for exp, where's the fun in that? Heck, what do you do for a challenge short of AV's? Giant Monsters solo? Heck, you've played a Fire/Fire blaster to the high 40's. Would an Invincible-set mission be a challenge to him?
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Heck no. But if you're farming Invincible missions with zero challenge for exp, where's the fun in that? Heck, what do you do for a challenge short of AV's? Giant Monsters solo? Heck, you've played a Fire/Fire blaster to the high 40's. Would an Invincible-set mission be a challenge to him?
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Who says challenge is necessary for fun? This all comes down to what people personally find fun, not what others think should be fun. I am the kind of person who doesn't like a challenge in the games I play. I'm the one who goes out and buys a gameshark and finds all the good codes, even before I play a game once normally. I like the feeling of being invincible and running through levels with complete ease. Maybe to someone else I'm cheapening the experience, but to me it's fun and I enjoy my time with the game.
While it's not possible, as far as I know, to cheat or hack this game (which I wouldn't do anyway because I enjoy it as is), I think the ability for him to tank an entire map on invincible is fine. Not because its fair or balanced, but because he is having fun doing it. Just because you would rather be on the verge of death, or taking more time killing mobs, doesn't mean he feels that way or necessarily even wants to play that way.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally just rolled a fire tank so I could experience that ease of play for once. I got all the way to 50 being a support character (emp/rad defender), and while things DID get easier as I reached the very end game, I was always on my toes making sure people weren't getting wiped out by an AV or whatever we were fighting. I think I deserve a little mindless fun with a tanker, and I'm really looking forward to herding up a map full of enemies and watching them burn in my dumpster. Sure the challenge may be lower than with most powersets, but that is why I rolled a tank in the first place. Perhaps that is why he made one too, I don't know.
Fun is such a broad concept that it's impossible to define, and I don't think others should try to restrict eachother to what they feel is fun, rewarding, or challenging. We all pay the same fee per month for this game, so I think we all deserve to play it the way we'd like.
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Who says challenge is necessary for fun? This all comes down to what people personally find fun, not what others think should be fun. I am the kind of person who doesn't like a challenge in the games I play. I'm the one who goes out and buys a gameshark and finds all the good codes, even before I play a game once normally. I like the feeling of being invincible and running through levels with complete ease. Maybe to someone else I'm cheapening the experience, but to me it's fun and I enjoy my time with the game.
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He's taking the highest difficulty setting in the game. Is that supposed to be "easy mode"? Nope. That's Heroic. I believe someone's sig says being a Tanker on Heroic is like taking your sister to the school dance. That's "easy mode". Your Tanker should run through there, minions and bosses alike burning to a crisp as you laugh and giggle.
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While it's not possible, as far as I know, to cheat or hack this game (which I wouldn't do anyway because I enjoy it as is), I think the ability for him to tank an entire map on invincible is fine. Not because its fair or balanced, but because he is having fun doing it. Just because you would rather be on the verge of death, or taking more time killing mobs, doesn't mean he feels that way or necessarily even wants to play that way.
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Why not just push the button and hit 50, then? The mission slider was put in to give people who wanted a challenge a bigger challenge.
I'm guessing if there was an Invincible+ (Indominatable?) setting, AncientOne's Tank would be all over it. Why? I'd hope a challenge for him. Like I said, if the nastiest setting in the game isn't a challenge for his build, something is wrong with the ability of the game to provide that challenge.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally just rolled a fire tank so I could experience that ease of play for once. I got all the way to 50 being a support character (emp/rad defender), and while things DID get easier as I reached the very end game, I was always on my toes making sure people weren't getting wiped out by an AV or whatever we were fighting. I think I deserve a little mindless fun with a tanker, and I'm really looking forward to herding up a map full of enemies and watching them burn in my dumpster. Sure the challenge may be lower than with most powersets, but that is why I rolled a tank in the first place. Perhaps that is why he made one too, I don't know.
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Considering he had a Blaster up there, yes. Quite possibly. The point is, there's a difference between "low challenge" and "no challenge". What was stated was "no challenge". Zero risk, maximum experience.
Is your sister ready for the dance? 
OK, I understand what the devs are trying to do here, and I'm not in total disagreement with the concept, but here's a scenario that needs addressing.
I friend and I just finished up a train mission. I don't remember the speciifc mission but is was a "rescue 9 people from rikti" in the level 35-39 range. It was also a HUGE freaking map. My scrapper friend was the mob killer, I (the blaster) was the scout. I helped out where I could but spent much of the time looking for the rescuees. As it was, we spent over 2 hours on that map. I've been on TFs that didn't take that long.
Had I not received any XP for my troubles, I would have had no incentive to assist, and both of us just working mobs would have added another hour to the mission.
I like a challenge. I'm a blaster who runs on "Invincible." This wasn't a challenge--it was simply tedious. Tedious is not fun.
I agree that risk should equal reward. Sitting safe and idle and getting XP isn't in the spirit of the game. But participation doesn't have to involve combat. Teamwork isn't all about fighting. Support has to count for something too.
I understand that this could be a difficult row to hoe. How do you measure participation aside from combat. Staying back 300' in essentially a street sweep is still a pretty safe thing since mobs don't spawn randomly during missions. XP will be rewarded for that. Scouting among +3 mobs is dangerous, and the liklehood of getting no XP in this case will be high. It kind of throws risk v. reward to the winds, doesn't it?
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Stop crying about things that dont affect you. You play the game your way and let other do the same.
Wow that would be so simple it just might work
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I don't understand your logic. The whole first part of your post was a legitimate complain about how its unfair for player B to not get xp and pay off debt, while his friend does get xp because he was rezzed in time, and within range. To me it sounded like you are wondering why the first player should get xp while the unlucky second one doesn't even tho he has probably contributed about as much.
But then, in your suggestions (which I think are ridiculously harsh btw), you seem to completely change your mind and ask for things like no xp or inf after dying, or getting rid of sidekicking (are you insane?!). This doesn't make any sense to me. What exactly are you trying to suggest or get accross?
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<whispers> It's sarcasm. 
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Based on data from the Training Room and feedback on the forums, we will be making the following changes to how XP, Influence and other drops are divided:
If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when its defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.
If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. Theres no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps players can be separated by elevators everyone receives their XP.
This system does not affect Mission rewards.
Well be putting the distance and mission map changes up on the Training Room soon (week or so) to see how it plays out.
Now, let me clarify the situation with Badges and Defeat tasks. As long as you or any of your teammates are within 200 ft. of the defeated mob, EVERYONE on the team gets credit. This is not a change in Issue 4; this is the way that it currently works.
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So, if my char gets killled, and I can't get a rez or pop an awaken within one minute, I get no xp. I then have to consider going to the hospital instead as a means of 'rezzing.' In considering that, I have to think about where the hospital is, and do I get xp while at the hospital. If the hospital is in a different zone, then I won't get XP while in the hospital's zone.
With this new proposed system, I can see there being times when it just might be tempting to quit the team and go to the hosptial rather then waiting in the zone for a rez that will take more then a minute. I think that as a penalty for being so thoughtless as to die in a zone you should aquire debt. I don't think double penalizing me with also no xp will make the game more fun.
Just something to think about
"The one thing that can stop a full team of MasterMinds dead in its tracks... a doorway!" --Frogfather
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o, if my char gets killled, and I can't get a rez or pop an awaken within one minute, I get no xp. I then have to consider going to the hospital instead as a means of 'rezzing.' In considering that, I have to think about where the hospital is, and do I get xp while at the hospital. If the hospital is in a different zone, then I won't get XP while in the hospital's zone.
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Not to mention that if your team keeps on fighting while you're on your way back to the mission you might lose the final xp reward/badge for the mission itself.
Yes my 4 ways to fix it where indeed meant as sarcasm. They where meant to show how ridicules all this is. The range and death changes to the system will not and I repeat WILL NOT STOP PLING, nope not even slow it down. Invis group and have them stay 280 ft from the action, still not doing anything and getting XP.
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<whispers> It's sarcasm.
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Haha, yeah after I read it again I kind of picked that up. Oh well
If you're sitting there with someone SK'ed five-six levels...you'll be fine long term.
If you just bridged someone from 10th so they could be in your team instead...they won't be able to benefit as much, due to the lower ability to absorb that experience. They'll be able to take in experience at the rate they would as a normal 10th level player would, not a 30+ level one...thus, they'll get as much exp as they might max out on doing their own missions/TF's/whatever, but won't be able to go ding-ding-ding level up like a broken pinball machine.