[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm, so I see this happening...
Kin throws Speed Boost, FS, Transfusion, then drops due to AoE. At 55 seconds down, pops a rez, drops three seconds later but re-sets the shot clock. Rinse and repeat. The question is, how much does the XP from the AV/whatever counterbalance the debt?
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I don't think it would counter it well at all. I solo'd Terra (ruh roh, scrapper admitting to soloing an AV, bring out the pitchforks!) and the XP from her defeat didn't match the debt I got for the two deaths at her, er, appendages? I don't think the mission complete even cleared it, but it's been a couple weeks so I could be wrong on that. Terra was 40, I was 40.
Kung Ru - 50++ MA/Regen Scrapper
Kalleesta - 50 Necro/Dark MM
Hidden Justice - 44 Kin/Psy Defender
Altaholic
[ QUOTE ]
Say the Kineticist uses Speed Boost and FS and then drops due to AOE. Not an unlikely scenario given a particularly aggresive Kinetic playstyle. Hopefully, there would be a rez from another Defender or Controller available, but if not, that Kineticist is going to stick around to see the outcome since there's virtually no way to make it back from a Hospital in time. Giant Monster goes down 70 seconds later. What then? 70 seconds later, the Speed Boost they used is still active on their team. It's a two minute buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
/Sarc
because now CoH turns into pvp game and if you dont deal damage you dont count and cannot possibly be helpfull to a team or deserve xp.
Sarc/
I realy hope this will never get to live, it will ruin the freedom that is the fun in CoH.
why are you changing XP anyway? this won't do anything to stop powerlevelling. It will just make the hero stay closer to their powerlevellers. All it does it make the game more complicated than needed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm, so I see this happening...
Kin throws Speed Boost, FS, Transfusion, then drops due to AoE. At 55 seconds down, pops a rez, drops three seconds later but re-sets the shot clock. Rinse and repeat. The question is, how much does the XP from the AV/whatever counterbalance the debt?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it would counter it well at all. I solo'd Terra (ruh roh, scrapper admitting to soloing an AV, bring out the pitchforks!) and the XP from her defeat didn't match the debt I got for the two deaths at her, er, appendages? I don't think the mission complete even cleared it, but it's been a couple weeks so I could be wrong on that. Terra was 40, I was 40.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my assumption...
To this point, I have seen good arguments describing what will happen re: powerlevelling strategies when/if this goes through, what the impact will be on "regular" and "casual" players, and the changes it will caused to team strategies.
I have yet to see an argument about what this specific change is supposed to address, and how this addresses that perceived problem. We have specualtion, and interpretations of Statesman's original and now revised statements, but I still don't see a why.
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[edit]Cleared to remove remove references to deleted posts[/edit]
Tater Tots are overpowered. Hash Browns have less flavor and cost just as many calories. NERF TATER TOTS!!!
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No my friend, you must not nerf the tater tots.
You must.. Nerf the Tomato
For Distance....
Afk tram powerleveling.
For Death....
Recall Friend powerleveling.
Both allow a more convenient method. Now the only method left is to not die yet still follow. Something Phase Shift can handle nicely.
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Yes the time limit on death appiles I have 4 post on this now I tested it two days ago and have not seen any changes posted by statesman. You have one minute even on a mission.
_
Like I said the controllers and defenders (support classes) always get the short end of the stick on stupid rules like this.
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None of the XP changes apply to missions.
The changes discussed in this thread aren't on Test yet. Test still has the first iteration of the XP changes from the 29th. Here's what Statesman said in the first post of this thread: "...Well be putting the distance and mission map changes up on the Training Room soon (week or so) to see how it plays out." He said that three days ago. The changes to distance and exemption from missions aren't on test yet.
Dwimble
first of all LordArkaine you have issues i dont know why or how but, you need to worry about yourself and stop worring about what other people do with their time and money. I have never met somone that didn't want to be PLed, not saying that their isn't someone but i hate to say it i bet 99% of the people here have been PLed in some way or another. PLing will never be stoped so just deal with it, go on playing your game, people will always find away to PL so devs please stop making the game stressful for everybody by tring to stop PL.
My pretty happy with this changes i think they are fair and will appease both sides. Thx statesman for listening to both sides.
The devs have never said (as far as I know) that they are against "powerleveling" per se. What they don't like, and regularly implement measures to prevent, are the types that are exploits or border on exploits that allow people to level by doing absolutely nothing (such as waiting at the train while someone else gains XPs for you).
The only types of powerleveling that I've seen the devs try to do anything about are those that gain huge amounts of XPs in very limited amounts of time, and usually involve little or no actions by the person gaining the XPs. The infamous "glowie mission", the Fruit missions, Wolf herding (to some degree), and so on. This change does the same thing...it is designed to hinder people from getting XPs for doing nothing. Obviously they wanted to implement it in missions too, but there were way too many unintended negative side effects associated with it, so they've changed it to not apply to missions. I think the current version of it is still a bit too heavy-handed, but it is much better than the first version.
If all the devs meant to hinder was gaining XPs fast, then they'd have never introduced the mission slider. I'm now having to keep a few of my characters permanently in debt because I level too fast on Invincible, but that's the setting that is the most fun for me.
I don't know their motivations for this stuff, but it's obviously not just about gaining levels fast, it's about gaining them fast when doing little or nothing and/or gaining them REALLY fast--way out of proportion to the designed "norm".
Dwimble
I understand what your saying and agree for the most part but like you say herding why is that wrong if the person can handle all the hits then whats wrong with that and im going to go as far as to say why is it wrong if he or she wants to share that xp he's getting i mean its his or her xp right what he or she does with it should be up to him or her, I guess what im trying to say is why is it so important to slow people down, to be so honest i wouldn't play the game if i had to start a new toon from lvl 1 to lvl 20 everytime i wanted to roll another toon, see for me i like trying out other types of toons and i would really hate if i had to grind all the way to lvl 20 to find out i dont like this toon and let me be clear im not one that wants to PL all the way to 50 because what would be the point in that. Their are just lvls that are really boreing maybe if in this game their was something to do beside fight bad guys or i dont know, but dont get me wrong i love this game and i love it the way it is and i dont want to see the devs trying to stop PL and mess around and make the game less free and more stressful to play for everyone I just think this whole 200 ft thing is a very bad idea just to let you know, oh and btw this is coming from someone that has never made it to lvl 50 yet and ive been playing the game almost as long as its been out.
At the bottom of it all, it's just a game. PL'ers. Non-PL'ers. Who cares? The goal of all these "tweaks" anyway is to make it harder to level and thus keep people playing longer. And the point of that is to keep accounts open and keep the money tree alive for the developers.
The only "vote" that any of us have is the one we cast with the CC number.
And reading about people taking this stuff so seriously makes me glad I don't read the boards all that much. How depressing.
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[ QUOTE ]
What about the group holds that do no damage whatsoever.
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently - stay within 300 ft.
[/ QUOTE ]
why not make all controller effects inflict 1 dmg when applied? thats next to nothing anyway 
Justice: Frosteffect (50) - Ice/Storm Controller
[ QUOTE ]
At the bottom of it all, it's just a game. PL'ers. Non-PL'ers. Who cares? The goal of all these "tweaks" anyway is to make it harder to level and thus keep people playing longer. And the point of that is to keep accounts open and keep the money tree alive for the developers.
The only "vote" that any of us have is the one we cast with the CC number.
And reading about people taking this stuff so seriously makes me glad I don't read the boards all that much. How depressing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That funny DAOC made it easier to level to keep people wow what a concept. They shorted a tough curve between 45-50 it was a uber grind. Then later on if you had levels 50 characters you could start a character at 20. All these where successful for them. Then the last one they did they gave out bonus or some servers if you leveled you got a free level 1 per week.
umm they done well enough to release there 4th ad-on this one a major graphic engine update
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Ok after reading this massive thread that grows with each day I still have yet to have this answered for me.
Here is my situation.
For the sake of my story I'm a scrapper and sk'd to me is a tanker. The rest of my team is blasters and other squishies as they are called. We are fighting the Psi Clock King and see him in the distance. My tanker sk is inv and so has no defense against the opening killer stike from CK so I do the mentor thing and move in to taunt him so the blast hits me, I pop purple shields and pray. It hits and kills me, one shot. My tanker sk charges as does the squishies with. If I hospital they all die. If I stay I get nothing XP wise becuase AV fights can last easily more then one minute.
Now you say I should get nothing for no risk right. Well I died so I'd say that was risk enough.
You say you don't want any PLing, well I'm the high level one not the sk and even so its not pling if everyone kicks in.
How can you defend me getting nothing for this? I am staying to help the team. If I hosptial the tank dies. If he dies the rest are in grave danger. So I stay and get rooked. Help me understand how this stops pling in anyway?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about the group holds that do no damage whatsoever.
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently - stay within 300 ft.
[/ QUOTE ]
why not make all controller effects inflict 1 dmg when applied? thats next to nothing anyway
[/ QUOTE ]
Quick quiz: What happens when you do 1 point of damage to a sleeping target?
Answer: They wake up. So much for laying down debuffs and non-damaging holds onto a target that is slept, so that you can take your time and don't have to deal with their attacks while you prep them for your team to unload the damage onto them.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
[ QUOTE ]
<snip example of dying and getting nothing>
How can you defend me getting nothing for this? I am staying to help the team. If I hosptial the tank dies. If he dies the rest are in grave danger. So I stay and get rooked. Help me understand how this stops pling in anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent question. My alternative solution would resolve this, since death plays no part in whether you get credit for the kill, but the current XP Range option does not address this issue.
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People claim various things on this thread, so when my Blapper was 20K in debt (at 26!!!), and I was asked to "Middle", I did so. The PLers involved were quite polite, so I interviewed them to see what this was all about.
In this particular case, the level 6 Defender was PLing to get all his Primary powers (up to 18th or so), so he could SK and help his level 31 friend.
Oh, and we waited underneath and to the back of the Tram, so that no one's framerate would be affected. (Who says that noone reads the boards? 
)
So far, my experiences seem to be that this is harmless, just like I imagined.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
[ QUOTE ]
The devs have never said (as far as I know) that they are against "powerleveling" per se. What they don't like, and regularly implement measures to prevent, are the types that are exploits or border on exploits that allow people to level by doing absolutely nothing (such as waiting at the train while someone else gains XPs for you).
The only types of powerleveling that I've seen the devs try to do anything about are those that gain huge amounts of XPs in very limited amounts of time, and usually involve little or no actions by the person gaining the XPs. The infamous "glowie mission", the Fruit missions, Wolf herding (to some degree), and so on. This change does the same thing...it is designed to hinder people from getting XPs for doing nothing. Obviously they wanted to implement it in missions too, but there were way too many unintended negative side effects associated with it, so they've changed it to not apply to missions. I think the current version of it is still a bit too heavy-handed, but it is much better than the first version.
If all the devs meant to hinder was gaining XPs fast, then they'd have never introduced the mission slider. I'm now having to keep a few of my characters permanently in debt because I level too fast on Invincible, but that's the setting that is the most fun for me.
I don't know their motivations for this stuff, but it's obviously not just about gaining levels fast, it's about gaining them fast when doing little or nothing and/or gaining them REALLY fast--way out of proportion to the designed "norm".
Dwimble
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh wait they can still do nothing stand at tram friend ports them to mission location go inside stand at door
read book while getting xp does nothing and gains level
So what did the person risk
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Ok pardon me if this has been answered already, but I don't have time to read 50 pages of posts, but I have a controller (ice\rad) whose specialty is debuff\crowd control...will I receive xp for those mobs defeated by my team? This is my team only character and I rely on others to do the killing while I make things more squishy...if I don't get xp, then that puts a huge damper on my advancement.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok pardon me if this has been answered already, but I don't have time to read 50 pages of posts, but I have a controller (ice\rad) whose specialty is debuff\crowd control...will I receive xp for those mobs defeated by my team? This is my team only character and I rely on others to do the killing while I make things more squishy...if I don't get xp, then that puts a huge damper on my advancement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Outside of missions, you will need to be withing 300' of the MOB when it dies to be credited for it unless you damaged it directly.
Statesman,
1) Im willing to give the 300 thing a try if you make an exception for a team's fighting Giant Monsters. I don't want to see a player shorted GM-level XP because (a) he/she gets killed by the GM without having done damage, (b) he/she goes to the hospital, which is more than 300' away, and (c) the GM is defeated before the player can get back within 300' of the GM. My feeling is that if any member of a team deals damage to a GM, then the whole team should get whatever the usual share for the death of the GM would be, regardless of range. Other than this one exception, I can't see any reason not to give the 300' rule a try.
2) I think the death-timer is a bad idea which ought to be junked altogether and replaced with a death-exemplar solution in which all XP earned while dead goes to pay off debt, and I wish you would forego implementing the death-timer altogether in favor of introducing the death-exemplar solution either in Issue 4 or a later issue.
Thanks for your consideration.
NewScrapper
[ QUOTE ]
Trading items, for example, is not an exploit. MMOs encourage it for a prosperous economy. But giving away items to lowbies? Is that an exploit? No... but it is immoral. Just as giving items from a higher level character to one of your own lower level characters is not only immoral, it's a BANNABLE offense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does this mean they will ban people for influence begging and begging for teleports to exits because they lack a travel power? I find that sort of thing far more annoying than powerleveling.
Should players who promote/participate in costume contests for influence prizes get banned as well?
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. He wasn't nuts about it. In all games, there are ways to PL that aren't exploits. But they still encompass the basic principle. Trading items, for example, is not an exploit. MMOs encourage it for a prosperous economy. But giving away items to lowbies? Is that an exploit? No... but it is immoral. Just as giving items from a higher level character to one of your own lower level characters is not only immoral, it's a BANNABLE offense.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the first time in my life I've ever heard of charity and generosity referred to as immoral.
Thank you for this first. I was wondering if it ever would happen.
/absurdity
Statesman's original post on the XP Range change said:
[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning behind this change was that the typical power-leveling tactic was to park the low-level heroes in the Safe Areas of zones, while the rest of the group hunts in the most dangerous places brings a lot of XP to the safe low-level guy. Forcing the low-level guy to actually move WITH the group (staying within 200) prevents the most common power-levelling tactic in the game. It's OK if the low level guy is in the zone and contributing - but that player needs to have some risk to go along with the reward.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, the idea here is to balance risk with reward by forcing the player to actually be somewhat involved with the group, even if that involvement is nothing more than staying near the others.
However, there are holes in this approach, as has been stated many times on the two official threads. I won't repeat it all here, but I will link to my favorite post summarizing some of the arguments against the range approach.
I offer a different solution. Forget range entirely as a criteria for XP/drops/etc. Instead, give credit to anyone on the team that has targetted an enemy in the same spawn group, including assisting. In missions, there would be no time limit on the targetting - in normal zones, you'd need to have targetted within the last 15 minutes (or whatever time limit you like) to get credit. Let me explain how this would work.
If you target any enemy in a spawn group, you get credit for all the defeated enemies by your team in that spawn group. If you assist someone who does the targetting, you also get credit. By 'spawn group' I mean the group of enemies who will aggro on you if you disturb one of their leaders - anyone familiar with pulling will understand how this works in great detail. I'm sure spawn group is already accessible in the code somewhere, since it appears to be the basis for the AI aggro behavior.
An example: Players A, B, and C are on a team. Player A is doing most of the actual damage, so he will target just about every enemy in the process - he's covered. Player B is a healer/buffer, targetting Player A most of the time - he is also covered due to assisting. Player C is attempting to sit safely halfway across the zone and PL - he gets nothing because he is out of range to target anything. Even if he selects Player A, he gets nothing, because assisting doesn't work unless you're close enough to actually target the enemy (try it sometime with the /assist command, new in I3).
The only hole I can see in this solution is that you could take Player C around the zone using Group Invis/Group Fly/Recall Friend/etc. and let him target each group, then park him and defeat them all. I don't see this as a major issue, though: 1) in normal zones you have a time limit, limiting the effectiveness of this tactic; and 2) there's a decent amount of work in targetting all those groups.
This has the side benefit of hurting herding techniques, since if you herd 20 groups together, chances are pretty good that everyone but the tank will fail to target some of the spawn groups. Herding won't be nearly as effective a method for quick XP any more.
So how does this affect normal play? In most cases, not at all. Everyone in the group will be targetting either an enemy or another member of the team. The only case I can see where this might hurt is if you use a big blast of some kind (say, Inferno) and you manage to hit two groups at once but have only targetted the first group. In practice I think this would be an extremely rare case, and in my opinion can safely be ignore as long as everyone knows about the targetting rule - people will just have to make sure they look at the enemies before they blow up the world.
I welcome thoughts, concerns, criticisms, etc. Get the feedback going to solidify this idea. Let's give the Devs an alternative that works, instead of the XP Range 'fix' that doesn't solve the problem.
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