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Its not really that unequal. On Pinnacle, there are probably between 2-3 open raids a week. Show up. Earn your HOs. Or deal with the fact that other people did when you didnt.
Yes, Id like there to be other ways, god knows, I'd like there to be other ways. If you were pushing for other ways, I'd push for that with you.
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Sir, open raids really aren't the answer.
Take a look at what is happening on the Champion server - trip mines, novas, you name it, all in the name of hoarding Hamidon enhancements.
The developers have a miserable reward system in place that in most cases does not truly reward a large portion of the folks at an open raid.
While you and your supergroup have done an admirable job of figuring out the Hamidon, time after time and have INDEED put in the kind of effort that I see you defending in this thread, a LARGE portion of the 45+ populace with HOs has sadly not done the same.
Please keep this in mind, and best of luck in the arena.
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My SG is only 25 people strong, and we dont want to get too much bigger
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TA routinely does it with around 21 toons. without nemesis staves, utilizing all ATs. I would suggest that you guys just aren't exploring your options.
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Just because inquiring mind want to know.
How many controllers do you use to lock him down?
How many holds stacked on the hammy does it take to paralyze him.
I am not trying to be jerk or anything here I honestly want to know.
If your not comfortable openly relaying the info in the forum could you please PM me?
Thanks
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Also once I again ask:
Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
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I think that's a great idea. But there's a problem in how you handle crossover, and different levels of HO's.
Somebody with 1 or 2 or 3 HO's isn't really going to disable the system. Those heros will be better, but still in the ballpark of an HO-free hero. And they'll get slaughtered by anyone w/ a tone of HO's. So what's the answer here? Play PvP w/o until you farm enough HO's to slot all your important powers?
And what about switching over? Pre-45 (47, really), everyone's in the non-HO league. Do you just keep keep that ranking, and move on w/ a 0 in the HO league?
Again, I like this idea, it seems simple and elegant. Just trying to scope it out.
-edit - duh. typos.
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and hami enahncements are available to everyone over 45, just put the effort into earning them, quit being lazy
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I'm not lazy, however I object to spending many hours farming Hamidon just so that I'm at an equal level with other HO-equipped heroes.
I want to put in the same amount of effort, but there should exist a choice on where I spend that effort.
Keep HOs in the game. Keep raiding in the game.
But I DO NOT want raiding to be the only means of obtaining Hamidon enhancements. When they add another means of getting these enhancements, then I'll be a happy chappy. 
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Its not really that unequal. On Pinnacle, there are probably between 2-3 open raids a week. Show up. Earn your HOs. Or deal with the fact that other people did when you didnt.
Yes, Id like there to be other ways, god knows, I'd like there to be other ways. If you were pushing for other ways, I'd push for that with you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sir, open raids really aren't the answer.
Take a look at what is happening on the Champion server - trip mines, novas, you name it, all in the name of hoarding Hamidon enhancements.
The developers have a miserable reward system in place that in most cases does not truly reward a large portion of the folks at an open raid.
While you and your supergroup have done an admirable job of figuring out the Hamidon, time after time and have INDEED put in the kind of effort that I see you defending in this thread, a LARGE portion of the 45+ populace with HOs has sadly not done the same.
Please keep this in mind, and best of luck in the arena.
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Im sorry to hear its that troublesome on Champion. Its certainly imperfect on Pinnacle, and I do -prefer- SG raids to open ones... but from what I've seen, its not a case of most poeple going away empty handed most of the time.
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<ul type="square">[*]I will enter 45+ PvP knowing full well that I may be up against someone or an SG with all powers fully HO slotted, and will contiue to do so, because I want to, even knowing that I already have a disadvantage.[/list]
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I think that from what little we really know of the PvP details, this needs to be extended to all levels of combat. The large % bonus may not be there in the under 45 matches, but the dual/triple effect of the enhancements will be.
Your point can also be used to expound on a fairly universal aspect of PvP we know from other games: you don't generally know what your opponent(s) can do. We may know what powers they have, but we probably will not know how they have them slotted. The enhancement slotting patterns become a competitive variable for the players. The higher the character level the greater the variable becomes. It could be 6 slots, it could be HO's, it could be an accolade power, it could be an unexpected temporary power. These things will all come into play. PvP can be balanced, but it not always fair.
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But there still is reason to try.
I'd like to think that the team intended PvP to be an exercise in competition, fairness and fun. That it's your wits against another human's wits.
Player vs. Player
Mixing the HO's in with the non-HO's just undermines that.
Now it looks like it's headed down the road of
HO's vs. SO's
I will agree to a great many things. But I don't see myself accepting that HO's vs SO's is balanced.
And even less fair.
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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.
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Again, how the hell do I know how they are?
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Divine Wisdom.
I mean seriously like dude what are you thinking that's how all the rest of us are planning on doing it.
It's rather simple really you send a petition to God and he annoits you with the can tell HOs from non HO ability. This is in fact a subset of the tell infidel from noninfidel ability. Now there are some know issues with the system sometimes the HO part and the infidel part get crossed and that has caused some grief in the past, however I remain confident in the Divine teams ability to straighten this out.
To access the Divine pentition system it is very simple just use
bed>kneel>fold hands>customer service>
In the title field enter "Know UnHOer ability"
{Just replying to the end here.}
Perhaps Hami-o's should be purchasable in the really high end? At least the Dual Hamis?
That would actualy be pretty neat for a "high end" enhancement to look forward to without having to farm them from Hamidon.
Perhaps at 45th level or so, you start dropping Hami-O's. (Hate that name.)
{The stores should be able to handle it too. I like this idea and I can finally get rid of Stamina. Pets would become very, very cool!}
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Also once I again ask:
Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't care about ladder standings, winning/losing.
To me, those things are secondary to having a good, fair fight.
However, I do care about being out-classed by someone who can dedicate a lot more time to raiding than I can. So, in order to have a fair fight with someone, you must be able to keep up with them enhancement wise, BUT, isn't the whole design philosphy of CoH supposed to be No Loot?
Also, I do care about not being able to ever have a fair fight with Hamidon-equipped heroes and vice versa. Limiting the amount of heroes I'm able to fight would be a very bad design decision.
By splitting PvP in two, you will miss out on the opportunity to fight many skilled heroes, simply because of your enhancement set-up.
Don't get me wrong, I want raiders to be rewarded with HOs that they can use in PvP. But, I do not want to be forced into a repetitive encounter to keep up with them. If we could buy them, do missions for them etc. that would be great.
I believe that the ONLY way to solve this is go All or Nothing.
Give ALL players, regardless of dedication, time and playing style preference, access to HOs. Make all methods of obtaining them require an equal of near-equal amount of effort.
or
Disable ALL HOs.
"There will never be a fair fight in an MMO so why bother?"
Yes, builds and slotting will still give someone the advantage, and IMO that should be the ONLY advantage that one gets.
After that, the match should ideally be decided on tactics, skill and luck. The match should not be decided on who has participated in the most raids. That PvP model has been tried and has failed on numerous occasions.
The best PvP model, is one where both sides are on an equal footing. In an MMO this is not possible, but it does not mean that we should not strive to get as close as possible to that goal.
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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.
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Again, how the hell do I know how they are?
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Divine Wisdom.
I mean seriously like dude what are you thinking that's how all the rest of us are planning on doing it.
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Aaah. As long as there's a simple solution! :/
I'm kinda at a loss why it's so important for people to beat up on others w/ their HO's. Personally, if I ever have a bushel of HO's I'm not going anywhere near a non-HO'd hero. What's the fun in that?
So can somebody explain the allure?
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and trust me, there is nothing common or unheroic about taking down the hamidon.
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Yeah, beating on a held foe that cannot retaliate is the heart of every good hero story.
[/ QUOTE ]Do you know how many peopel die in a hami raid, its not just throw a hold on him and its over, its freakin hard, it takes good teamwork to pull it off
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O.o
Dude
Seriously your level 50.
I mean seriously Dude.
Level 50.
Dude
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Most people want to play in PvP but in most other games they CHOOSE not to. For every single reason that has been listed in this thread.
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Of course everything posted about in this tread, only maters at lvl 47+, which is the soonest you can slot HO's. That means for the vast bulk of people playing CoH, this is a non-issue.
Yet people are saying that allowing HO's in to PvP will be the death of PvP as a whole... Even though they can only be used for 3 lvl's.
[ QUOTE ]
Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, if you can come up with the point where HO's go from being a minor advantage to a major one. 2 HO's won't likely be enough to make the person who has them sloted unbeatable. 12 most likely will. So how many HO's does it take to get put on the HO ladder?
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and hami enahncements are available to everyone over 45, just put the effort into earning them, quit being lazy
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that argument doesn't work. I'm willing to bet that there are people 45+ don't have HO's who have put in just as many hours in the game as any HO user.
Statesman, I do have to ask something.
I for one, absolutely hate raids. 40 people fighting one monster is not entertaining to me. I'm not going to raid Hamidon, not now, not ever. When I pvp, I dont want my level 50 to be outclassed in any way by someone who's gotten loot in this game. Is there a possibility you could give us a switch to turn them off? I want to be on even footing, no matter what level it is.
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Most people want to play in PvP but in most other games they CHOOSE not to. For every single reason that has been listed in this thread.
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Of course everything posted about in this tread, only maters at lvl 47+,
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Not really. PvP is planned as an "open system" where you can fight anyone on any level. So a L47 can challenge anyone. And, AFAICT, a L47 could be part of a team of, say, L33 heroes, and be exmped down. They'd lose the extra bonus of hte HO, but not the dual-slotting advantage.
So there's really no way to avoid HO's dominating all up and down the line. The only place it might not matter is pre-DO's, where it's not going to matter all that much if you've slotted 4 or 6 or 12 TO's.
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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, how the hell do I know how they are?
[/ QUOTE ]
Divine Wisdom.
I mean seriously like dude what are you thinking that's how all the rest of us are planning on doing it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aaah. As long as there's a simple solution! :/
I'm kinda at a loss why it's so important for people to beat up on others w/ their HO's. Personally, if I ever have a bushel of HO's I'm not going anywhere near a non-HO'd hero. What's the fun in that?
So can somebody explain the allure?
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The allure is to be "t3h l33t ub3r h3r0" and "pwnX0rz all t3h lay-z n00bs ROFLROFLMAOLOLOL!!11!!!"
It's a very sad truth. In any competitive game, be it Madden, Street Fighter, Counter Strike, Starcraft, WoW, soon to be CoH, there will be those who want to be competitive, and those who want to win no matter what.
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Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, if you can come up with the point where HO's go from being a minor advantage to a major one. 2 HO's won't likely be enough to make the person who has them sloted unbeatable. 12 most likely will. So how many HO's does it take to get put on the HO ladder?
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I think Zero tolerance would be the easiest solution.
One allows HOs the other does not plain and simple.
If the player that has 2 HOs does not like this then they seem to have to reasonable options:
1) Farm the Hamidon for more
2) Remove their HOs vis repsec or reslotting
While clearly not the optiamly solution for poor "Mr I gots me 5!!!!"
I can not see their being a point in spliting up the top ladder further especially when those that are slotting HOs are in effect saying bring it, on anything goes.
Two options go HO or just say no.
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Of course everything posted about in this tread, only matters at lvl 47+, which is the soonest you can slot HO's. That means for the vast bulk of people playing CoH, this is a non-issue.
Yet people are saying that allowing HO's in to PvP will be the death of PvP as a whole... Even though they can only be used for 3 lvl's.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are many people who have hit Level 50, myself included.
PvP should be something that is fun, fair and should allow all competitors an equal chance of winning.
Look at the original Half-Life for example. That game is nearly 7 years old and people still consistently play it day in, day out! How did it survive so long? PvP
After people were finished with the PvE aspect, it was a fun, fair PvP that kept it going.
To many, PvP is not about pwning your fellow man, but should instead represent more content to enjoy.
If done right, PvP will solve many Lack of Content complaints, which is why some, (myself included) are complaining about the current lack of equity.
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the ONLY way to solve this is go All or Nothing.
Give ALL players, regardless of dedication, time and playing style preference, access to HOs. Make all methods of obtaining them require an equal of near-equal amount of effort.
or
Disable ALL HOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
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They'd lose the extra bonus of hte HO, but not the dual-slotting advantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
The amount of advantage that gives is pure speculation at this point and means nothing.
In fact Statesman who is the only one to post in this thread, that has anything like real experance with the system, said that the advantage of HO's when exmp'ed down isn't major.
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Take a look at what is happening on the Champion server - trip mines, novas, you name it, all in the name of hoarding Hamidon enhancements.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just had to quote this as it happens on my server. This hardly seems fair. So much hard work can be wasted, and has been wasted due to others "working hard" in preparation for PvP. I wonder if they can strip a player of extra HOs so that their HOs coincide with Hammidon kills? It would be best if HOs can be awarded to those who have been robbed, like our TF badges were. I think doing that and fixing the distribution problem would be great. Then the get-your-own crowd would have a valid argument.
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They'd lose the extra bonus of hte HO, but not the dual-slotting advantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
The amount of advantage that gives is pure speculation at this point and means nothing.
In fact Statesman who is the only one to post in this thread, that has anything like real experance with the system, said that the advantage of HO's when exmp'ed down isn't major.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, it's major. 200%+ Damage but +100% accuracy +50% END ruducers in *all* attacks will be brutal.
And that's only the begining. I'm imagining pets, myself.
Still here, even after all this time!
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If done right, PvP will solve many Lack of Content complaints, which is why some, (myself included) are complaining about the current lack of equity.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Personally I think HO's should be effectively converted into SO's in PvP fights. With the first bost in the line being the only one that counts.
Does that serriously screw over those with HO's? Yes, but seeing how CoH was supposed to be a loot free game, I don't have a problem with that.
But I also do not think that HO's will be the death of PvP arena matches.
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Um, it's major. 200%+ Damage but +100% accuracy +50% END ruducers in *all* attacks will be brutal.
[/ QUOTE ]
So how much testing of this have you done so far? I mean in PvP matches in the arena, on the live servers? You can throw all the numbers and math out you want, but until PvP arena's hit the live servers, it's all speculation at best.
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Um, it's major. 200%+ Damage but +100% accuracy +50% END ruducers in *all* attacks will be brutal.
[/ QUOTE ]
So how much testing of this have you done so far? I mean in PvP matches in the arena, on the live servers? You can throw all the numbers and math out you want, but until PvP arena's hit the live servers, it's all speculation at best.
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You can't see the obvious advantages of having heavily slotted damage plus heavily slotted accuracy and heavily slotted END reducers? In *ONE* power?
Still here, even after all this time!
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There us a ladder set up.
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If someone cares about the ladder that much, then they're more then just a casual player. I've played in lots of games that have competitive laders/groups, and these kinds of people would have no problem putting in the time to farm Hami.
Most of the people posting here saying that Hami-o's are going to kill PvP, seem to feel that way because they don't have the time/desire to farm hami. These kind of people don't strike me as being the kinds who would be overly conserned about their ladder ranking.
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My take is every one cares about the Ladder.
Most people want to play in PvP but in most other games they CHOOSE not to. For every single reason that has been listed in this thread.
The kind of people you know are the kinda of people that make up less than 10% of players in any MMO. PvP is almost always a failure and this exact situation is why.
As I said I think the, I will say, vehemence of the many people here have put the lie to your words even before they were typed.
Also once I again ask:
Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?
Ps:
For all those that saw my posts in the thread that sparked this one, say hello to BOB. BOB seems to be getting rather pissed.
PPs: I told you so.