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My SG is only 25 people strong, and we dont want to get too much bigger
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TA routinely does it with around 21 toons. without nemesis staves, utilizing all ATs. I would suggest that you guys just aren't exploring your options.
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Are you saying b/c I have a job and kids I can't play PvP?
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I dunno what he's saying. But I'll say this, unless you are a competitive type person, and [/b]will not[/b] play PvP unless you rank high on the ladder, and are lvl 45+, and have no friends who can help you get Hami-o's in someway...
Then there's no reason you can't play PvP matches and have fun. If someone has them and whopps you, don't play them again.
I can understand that people are upset that the lvl 45+ playground isn't as even as it was looking to be. But I also don't think it's going to be the death of PvP as some have already posted.
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So to play in PvP vs. hamidon equipped heroes (which I have now seen posts talking about 6 slotting Hamidon enhancers), I have to 6 slot
Elude
FF, Evasion, FS
Agile, Dodge, Lucky
Weave
That's 8 powers and 40 slots I have to put into Defense (not counting the 8 inherent ones) giving me about (drumroll) +173% def, 148% vs. AOE? By my math, it is 64% from SR toggles/passives, 25% from Weave, and 84% from Elude. (4 recharges on perma Elude, 2 for def; 5 def for all toggles, 1 End redux, 6 Def for all passives).
3 Hamidon dual accuracy/damage will get you +150% Acc, Dam.
That leaves me 13 slots to assign to all attacks at level 45, assuming 5 go to Hasten. 2 attacks 6 slotted, 1 3 slotted.
All because Hamidon can be farmed. Yeah that seems balanced to me.
Would the Twilight Avengers rather have Ochimo MA/SR (who can't afford to take Phase Shift)? Or Calibos, my Kinetic/Dark defender? Like I said, the nature of the Hamidon raid means that any non-SG member is going to be solely evaluated on their benefit to the raid, and SR does not benefit Hamidon raids nearly as well as regen.
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well TA doesn't take non-SG members on raids, so you would have to apply and be accepted. But we would be cool with either AT. I do agree that there should probably be a +50% defence Hami-O to counter the accuracy H-Os... maybe a strait Def/End enhancement would be enough to balance out the number crunching. (or you can bring along a drak or radiation defender to debuff their accuracy, but i digress)
Why do people ignore this simple fact about HOs?
They are not fair because HOs can ONLY be acquired through raiding. SOs can be acquired through MANY means.
I'm not lazy, however I object to spending many hours farming Hamidon just so that I'm at an equal level with other HO-equipped heroes.
I want to put in the same amount of effort, but there should exist a choice on where I spend that effort.
I play to be a hero, not a farmer.
Why not just get rid of HO's in the arena, and then I don't have to worry about people I won't have fun fighting?
Besides, that's all a pile of crap. Say I fight once or twice against some people, and it's fun and challenging. Then next week they farm Hami a dozen times. Next time I fight them, they're all amped up w/ HO's.
Your "solution" didn't really help me, did it?
Then I find other people to fight. Same thing.
Your "solution didn't rally help me there, either, did it?
Then I make sure to only fight people low on the "ladder." and it's all fine and dandy, until . . . they get HO's.
So how does your "solution" help me there?
Basically, all your saying is I should learn to enjoy getting beaten pretty regularly no matter how good I am b/c I don't have HO's. Can you explain how that ends up being fun?
then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.
and trust me, there is nothing common or unheroic about taking down the hamidon. even if you have honed it into a science.
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I intentionally extended the argument to the absurd so you could see the application of a balanced restriction against that of a one-sided restriction system. When taken to the extremes you can analyze the logical application of these types of things. Removing something from one person but not the other is not equitable but it may balance the match. Removing something from both may be equitable but at what cost? The unique characters each of us develped become nothing more generic templates. All our hard work to customize the way our powers work get thrown out with the bath water. Allowing the characters to stay the way their player built them is the most equitable to all.
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Understood. Which is why I continue to reiterate the fact that I am all in favor of HO users beaing able to retain their use in PvP. I've pat them on the back, clapped my hands enthusiastically, congratulated them, etc. In fact, I shall reiterate myself again. HO users have earned their bonuses and have the right to use them. Ok, that said...
If my memory still serves me correctly, I've never said to strip their use from the Arena all together. As in the first post I quoted, is "the ability to shut down HO's" meaning, you CAN shut them down IF you wanted to.
Believe it or not, there is an inherent problem in HO users competing against non-HO users. And this is what my concern is about. That's why I keep pointing out the benefits of a VOLUNTARY HO removal system (ie: one of the Arena "rules"), or a separate ladder all together. This way the non-HO's still have a good chance of doing well in 45+ PvP. Again, I will repeat and summarize
Let HO users keep their HO's but separate them *somehow* from non-HO users. Keep your gun, just don't bring it to my knife fight.
Many others, myself included, have already provided examples of what the *somehow* can be.
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For example...do all 45+'s have access to HO's?
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Yes, of course they all have access to the HO's. Do they exercise that access? That's the sticking point.
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Yes it is. Because, as it stands, they do not have access to the HO's. They may have access to the RAID (provided the "l33t ub3r raid d00dz" allow them in.) that MAY give them access to the HO's. (there is another debate going on in another thread about this issue).
Again, in the hopes that my point does not get lost, I will reiterate.
<ul type="square">[*]yes, you've earned the HO's. Please feel free to use them in the Arena.[*]But don't forget that there is a balance issue in HO-users vs. non-HO's users.[*]To ensure that there is a fair chance of competition, many believe that either separating HO-users from non-HO users is necessary. Or, to have the OPTION to turn HO's off/tone them down. (This has always been my main point.)[*]the ability to get HO's is far more different than the ability to get TO/DO/SO's[*]I love CoH, and have complete faith in the team to ensure that all parties are happy with the outcome of PvP.[*]I will enter 45+ PvP knowing full well that I may be up against someone or an SG with all powers fully HO slotted, and will contiue to do so, because I want to, even knowing that I already have a disadvantage.[/list]
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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved. stop crying because you aren't the most powerful hero out there.
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Again, how the hell do I know how they are?
I don't care about being the most "powerful" hero. This is a game, and I'm not 13. But I want to see the fights be fair - to be challenging even if you don't blow a lot of effort on time-consuming activities.
It goes the other way, too. If I suddenly find myself w/ a dozen HO's, I'm not going to have a lot of fun whomping on somebody without them. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about that.
You know, I was going to try to come up with something to offset the negativity and insecurity, here... but I give up. Youve all beaten this horse quite thorougly to death.
Im sorry your not getting everything you want. I hope you manage to have fun despite the fact that some people may have better builds, toons, inspirations, enhancements, tactics, strategies, anything that would in any fashion disadvantage you, no matter how they got it.
The other plus side? If ever you loose, no doubt it was because your foe had HOs, and you did not, or had less of them, or didnt have the right types.
Children.
There should be a way to ban people from PvP matches based on their level and what enhancements they have. That way people without the Hamidon enhancements never have to deal with those with them.
PEOPLE DONT JUST FARM HAMI, I KILL HIM TO KILL HIM, ITS FUN. I GET HO'S OUT OF IT SO COOL MORE +'S TO KILLIN HIM. its not about farming him its about him being the only thing fun when you hit 50, so i get HO's doing it. its something people earned, and it was fun to earn them. "blih blah blih blah, its not fair cause i dont wanna farm hami" dont farm him, kill ihm for fun fools
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then don't fight those who you know are raiding hamidon. problem solved.
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Exactly. All you have to do is consult the Hami Raid Register and check who's been raiding Hami lately.
... wait, it doesn't exist.
Honestly, it's a bit much to say 'problem solved' when there's no way of putting your alleged solution into practice.
The simple answer to all of this is to allow us to view each other's enhancement types. Then we can pick our fights as we please. I refer you to my 'we should be able to tell who has HOs' post.
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Yes, of course they all have access to the HO's. Do they exercise that access? That's the sticking point. Some do and some don't. Those that run the risk of the raids do reap the reward.
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What risk? It's a freaking video game. The real issue is that Cryptic wants us to spend countless hours in a "keeping up with the Joneses" farming exercise.
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Im sorry your not getting everything you want. I hope you manage to have fun despite the fact that some people may have better:
-builds,[ QUOTE ]
Kewl, I'd love to lose to someone w/ a great build. Then I can ask what it was, admire their thinking, maybe do something better next time. Next?
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toons,
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You mean costume? Or what? I'm totally lost here.
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inspirations,
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kewl, that'd be awesome. If the game comes down to who popped a green pill at the right time, or whatever, I'm totally impressed. next?
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enhancements,
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huh? Isn't that part of your build? In any case, if you found some great way to slot, wonderful. I'm gonna be impressed. But if you just slammed an HO in there, so what?
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tactics, strategies,
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Kewl. It's awesome to play people who are good. I'd love to be able to chat about when you did this and I did that and then you did this other thing and zapped me. that'd be awesome.
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anything that would in any fashion disadvantage you, no matter how they got it.
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Hmm. So if I find a cheat that lets me have unlimited health, you'd be kewl with me having that advantage in the arena?
Or if there was a special accolade that if you made it to 50 never playing more than 1 hour a night, and never teaming up with more than 4 people, and never PLing at all, you got unlimited endurance, that'd be kewl with you?
If you didn't pick up, the common thread here is that HO's aren't equally available to everyone, and so are utterly meaningless as far as being an interesting or fun way to win, or lose, a game. Much like using a cheat code.
and hami enahncements are available to everyone over 45, just put the effort into earning them, quit being lazy
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Twilight avengers usually has at least 2 SR scrappers at most of their raids. All ATs are usefull. ALL of them.
And there are Hami def buff HOs... two of them I believe. one targetted for popable defences, one targetted for toggle defence. Sure theres a hard cap for PvE at 95% defence, but whose to say you can't spec out your defences above the cap to counterbalance those that max out their accuracy?
Basically it comes back down to weahter you have what it takes to take down the hamidon.
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As far as I have seen an SR scrapper is at no more of a disadvantage with the hamidon then 90% of the other players. See people are making the assumption that you actually "fight" the Hamidon. There is no "fight" involved there is a systemic shreading of its defenses followed by copious amount of low risk damage dealing. It's a brilliant plan really that allows everyone to play equally. The flip side of this is that the only really hard of fighting the hamidon is the pre-battle organization.
The glory/silliness of the Hamidon killing plan is that the only "make or break" point is the possible lack of controllers/holds. As I said the hamidon doesn't really seem to do much other than die once the plan is in full effect. Damage can be offered by all so EVERYONE is usefull in a hamidon raid and there is litterally no reason not to have someone along.
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and hami enahncements are available to everyone over 45, just put the effort into earning them, quit being lazy
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No they aren't. They're only available to people who have the time to farm Hami.
Its not really that unequal. On Pinnacle, there are probably between 2-3 open raids a week. Show up. Earn your HOs. Or deal with the fact that other people did when you didnt.
Yes, Id like there to be other ways, god knows, I'd like there to be other ways. If you were pushing for other ways, I'd push for that with you.
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Let me make sure I understand the auto-exemp feature correctly in this example:
There are 50 heroes in the arena, 25 on each side. Each team has 5 heroes from each "weight class"...meaning 5 heroes each for levels 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, and 41-50.
I, as a level 45, enters combat and targets a level 25. When I attempt to use a power on that lvl 25 player, it auto-exemps me down to lvl 25 (24?). If, right after I use that power, I hit tab and now am targeting a lvl 35, it again auto-exemps me down to lvl 35. This repeats no matter who I attack...the auto-exemp feature always reduces the effectiveness of my power down to the affected players' level.
Is this correct? If so, that's a nifty bit of programming...
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If it's like this I won't be playing. If I'm level 50 and there are a wide variety of levels in the heroes I'm up against and targetting one makes me the same as them, then I'm assuming if I target a level 15 and get hit by a 25 I'd get rocked?
The auto exemplar thing just sounds funky to me. I don't know. I'll give PvP a shot, but if it turns into Hamidon Enhancements owning everyone and exemplar confusion, I won't be in it.
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and trust me, there is nothing common or unheroic about taking down the hamidon.
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Yeah, beating on a held foe that cannot retaliate and then squabbling over his remains is the heart of every good hero story.
The last 4 raids Champion has had only took 1.5 hours, that's not long, that's the same time you get for a timed mission.
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and trust me, there is nothing common or unheroic about taking down the hamidon.
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Yeah, beating on a held foe that cannot retaliate is the heart of every good hero story.
[/ QUOTE ]Do you know how many peopel die in a hami raid, its not just throw a hold on him and its over, its freakin hard, it takes good teamwork to pull it off
And the auto exemplar thing will work the same as the monsters are set up now, no matter what lvl you are you hit it as if it was even lvl, and it hits you at that same lvl
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<ul type="square">[*]I will enter 45+ PvP knowing full well that I may be up against someone or an SG with all powers fully HO slotted, and will contiue to do so, because I want to, even knowing that I already have a disadvantage.[/list]
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I think that from what little we really know of the PvP details, this needs to be extended to all levels of combat. The large % bonus may not be there in the under 45 matches, but the dual/triple effect of the enhancements will be.
Your point can also be used to expound on a fairly universal aspect of PvP we know from other games: you don't generally know what your opponent(s) can do. We may know what powers they have, but we probably will not know how they have them slotted. The enhancement slotting patterns become a competitive variable for the players. The higher the character level the greater the variable becomes. It could be 6 slots, it could be HO's, it could be an accolade power, it could be an unexpected temporary power. These things will all come into play. PvP can be balanced, but it is not always fair.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
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i still think its as simple as this, if you think its unfair then go beat hami. its set up like that so people have a reason to kill hami, you kill him to make yourself stronger. on champion it takes us 1.5 hours to kill hami, that's not long. so go earn some
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1.5 hours if you're on a really good team, and other people are around when you're on to do it, and somebody didn't just kill him, and somebody else didn't just start attacking and start accusing you of KSing and stuff.
I play on Pacific time, and there's never been a raid on my server starting anywhere near a time I can play. Are you saying b/c I have a job and kids I can't play PvP? Or are you suggesting I develop techniques to solo Hami?
Either way, thanks a lot.