Devs response to the WLers?
By
Ailbe33,
Posted on: 2005-02-09 15:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Example: WLed N0ob runs into a mob and tps us all in- after aggroing 10 groups along the way. We tell him not to do that. this is followed by lots of cursing and a quit.
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Why are you letting strangers teleport you?
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Two- he was pretty quiet, no way of knowing
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Er, this is just me, but when I get a mute team leader, the team isn't long for my character. In short, I split. Didn't even need to play since the beta to figure that one out.
At the very least a team leader that says little isn't communicating terribly well, and communication is very necessary for a team to work well. As for this whole Winter Lord fandango, I'm with the other folks: bad players existed before this, as have influxes of bad players:
1) If you think it takes one sketchy event to ruin the entire player base of an MMO, you're sadly deluded.
2) Those that are inclined to play well will learn, those that aren't, won't. This was true before the Winter Lord event and it's still true now, What has changed?
You don't need an apology.... what you need is a cookie. Will someone please get this guy a cookie?
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We are even too messed up to be properly grateful to the people who are here to protect us and the game from PLing.
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Sarcasm noted. 
There are 2 problems I see with powerlevelling.
1) The risk that a brand new player will lvl up to high levels this way, and get himself and many teammates over time killed in the higher end game when it is expected that people not just understand, but who are experienced with their characters.
2) The sheer number of people powerlevelling lures away people who would or could group with others in their missions or street hunting.
I argue the first problem isn't that rampant. In my experience I've grouped with so few people at the higher level game that suffer from an incompetence with their hero. I also agree with the notion that people will sooner or later learn to play their character. I just hope for sooner. 
I argue the second problem IS rampant, mainly because I find it harder to group in the 30's, and particularly the 40's, because most people who send tells to me, or invite me, do it specifically for wolves.
I've posted elsewhere on this so I won't beat the arguement to death. I dont mind some powerlevelling, but clearly it's rampant in this game. I also think it is damaging because it hurts my chances of grouping with others, far more than I fear a lvl 40 newb is going to get me killed because he don't understand his role as a defender, tank, controller, or whatnot.
Don't get rid of the WLn00bs, I love them.
They taste so good with bacon.
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You're wanting the devs to admit to something based upon your assumptions not facts.
Look at it this way...
I'm assuming you're posting here just to whine and get attention (I may be right or wrong). Therefore, I want you to admit that your whining just to get attention.
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Exactly. The fatal flaw of unproven assumptions.
This is too funny. Rad, here's what you wrote to someone compaining about the WL event in another thread...
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Look-
I took an extended hiatus from CoH about 2 months ago (ive been a member since beta) and I found it quite convinient to be able to return to the level I was at when I left (24) in only 2 days. Now of course I took the easy way out and im not afraid to admit it. But when people are more interested in leveling up as fast as possible without caring about the storylines or missions, then let them be!
Personally, not only did I lev quickly, I met alot of new people (I switched from Freedom to Gaurdian) and had a ton of fun throwing snowballs while waiting for the next spawn.
Dont be upset by this experiance. Be understanding to other peoples situations.
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And now suddenly you don't like the xp from WLs?
Not trying to put you down, but this seems a little hypocritical.
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Example: WLed N0ob runs into a mob and tps us all in- after aggroing 10 groups along the way. We tell him not to do that. this is followed by lots of cursing and a quit.
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Why are you letting strangers teleport you?
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Only if they offer me candy. 
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I bet the Dev's response to the WLers will be along the lines of:
"You're welcome."
I can't believe you people are defending WL PLed toons. Really, I think half of you just want to jump on anyone who makes a complaint.
I had to explain to a L39 tanker the other day that one slotting all of his primaries, and none of those slots with resist or defense buff, was not a good idea as a tanker.
Yes, he's entitled to play the game as he sees fit, but for him, he built his tanker for one thing: killing winter lords. His idea of tanking was that he needs all his slots for his secondary, so he can do as much damage on a winter lord as is possible, so that he can get as much XP as possible.
He needs help. I gave him some. Dunno if he'll listen.
If he had done all of this with a goal of a certain playstyle in mind, that's cool. But the problem is that he did all this because he thinks the WL is the game, and this is the fault of the design of the WL event. It's made a lot of broken players at high levels, who need respec and are not capable of it.
You've got bubblers with six slotted attacks and no bubbles to give anyone, because WL didn't need bubbles but it needed sniping. These guys let their teams down and cause a lot of wasted time on trials. You have tankers who are as fragile as a blaster, and don't know what tanking actually is, and they're all hitting level 40 right now, bright and ready for PI.
This is wrong. It hurts the game to rush a bunch of newbie players with no clue into the endgame content.
Statesman's very own design goals were this:
Level 1-20 not much differentiation between the ATs. You're supposed to start getting a taste of teamwork, and getting familiar with your base powers, and then start diverging.
L20-30 you start to blossom into your role, having learned it in the first 20 levels, now you start getting more powerful in it.
L30-40 you have your high game content where success depends on mastering your role and having selected your powers well.
L40+ is tacked on, this I don't know what the plan was but it seems more as just fun time with challenges where you get to use all of your fully slotted powers.
People have entirely skipped the learning process. The WL destroyed all of Statesman's design goals for people playing this game. It was counter to everything that the devs did.... nerfing underlings so that they're annoying to fight, nerfing prisoners so that nobody bothers even touching them, this is removal of content to prevent the VERY thing that they then served up on a silver platter.
Yes, I think the devs should make a comment and explain why they took so much away from us, nerfed all these powers and broke a lot of builds, gave us entire classes of enemies that people won't fight or bother with that sit there doing nothing... all in the name of something that they dropped on Paragon City like a big giant turd and leaving us all who learned to play the game the hard way to deal with the big messy poop stained all over the place.
That's not a bad thing to ask for. Explain why you did this. Was it an oversight? Was it by design? When it got out of hand why did it take so long to shut it down?
(Note, with thousands of hours of playtime it was nice to have a vehicle to advance some underused alts, this aspect of it was very nice... but guys at level 30 with two days of playtime under their belts is the problem).
And it's just stupid to pile on to someone who is just asking for this. "What, do you want an apology?" Please, do not be an utter moron if you have nothing to contribute. It may make you feel better to write a sarcastic flame as your only contribution, but it makes you look like an idiot.
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The WL destroyed all of Statesman's design goals for people playing this game.
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Thereby possibly proving he was right, a useful exercise in itself.
Seems to me we are defending the developers, not the alleged PLed by WL toons.
But here's some food for thought: What is the job of the developers? In general would it not be to create an environment where there are more subscribers? The servers were yellow during the WL event and now they are not.
Expect more of the same.
As for me, once I got tired of them I found pickup groups that felt the same way but while I was doing it I met some bozos and some good people.
I found it an interesting event and they are welcome to do it as often as they wish, I will do as much of it as appeals to me and live and let live. Debt is not a serious issue. In fact, a search might reveal that I believe debt is good.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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OP quit whining, there will be noobs no matter what level you are. I apologize ahead of time that everyone can not meet your impeccable level of gameplay. How dare they try and compare to your flawless style.
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You quit whining about other people whining.
The boards are for feedback. He's giving it. I want to read it. So do others.
When you take it apong yourself to speak for everyone to tell him to "shut up", you're being far more arrogant than you're claiming he is being.
Then you dish out a series of insults to him for making his complaint.
This is no contribution here at all. Just a waste of time.
Part of his point is that these people would know how to play the right game if they had the right game handed to them. These people know how to play the game that the WL was, and now this is taken away and they are in our midst.
This is a fair complaint, as the devs had a good system in place to make people learn the game, and then they broke it for a period of a few weeks. Ramifications are still being felt.
I really have to wonder at you people who cannot stand to read the criticism without breaking out this emotional [censored] and going on the personal attack.
Sorry, not gonna read all that. Yes, I kow, WL n00bs are annoying, still they are- however unfortunately- now a fact of existance on CoH for the next few months perhaps till the ones that are inclined to learn the game do, and the ones that aren't leave the game altogether or roll new characters and play them up "proper"...
Do you have to watch who you team with? Yes. But then again you had to before the Winter Lord thingy too, so wah.
The devs don't owe any of us an apology for providing us an extra event above and beyond the release of I3. Yes, it may have been a bit botched up, but rush jobs often are. Would you prefer we had no seasonal events from now on?
So, in conclusion:
Deal.
Thank you.
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In general would it not be to create an environment where there are more subscribers? The servers were yellow during the WL event and now they are not.
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The problem with this theory is that people come back for challenges. The WL was like getting crack injected into your eyeballs. It was just an XP frenzy. There is a game for this, it's called "Progress Quest."
If the WL was here all the time, sure we'd be yellow dotted. And it would last a month then everyone would get bored and quit. Then there would be fewer subscribers than before, because some of those that became XP addicts might otherwise have enjoyed the game for its gameplay which is good and the content which is getting better.
PL events do not help the game. They help more experienced players level up alts and so maybe cause a return of some interest on their parts, but there are better ways of doing this.
I suggested some playtime rewards. If you hit a certain number of hours played, you could receive a bonus of starting a toon at L14 with your travel power. Another level hit, you could start at L22 and have access to SOs. Another level hit and start one at L27.
This way now it is considered a reward, and by doing it in a way that it is rewarding playtime, you have experienced players who are not going to be screwups getting access to a pre-levelled toon. Now you have the beneficial side of an XP event like this without the drawback site, which is saturating the servers with players who don't know how to play.... no doubt players who will soon become frustrated both at the pace of progress because they used to have it easy, and now this "sucks" and players who don't know how to handle difficult villain groups because they never cut their teeth on skulls to learn the basics. Players who would otherwise be the experienced and dependable players who love the game in their 30s, now have quit to find something else.
That's why it's bad.
Not because a dude with a L50 used it to skip some boring levels that he's seen 10x already, and moved his Kheldian in a position to play with friends in his SG. That is beneficial to him and keeps his interest in the game.
There is some pro and con here, and it would be nice if the devs explained what they were trying to achieve with this, what went right and what went wrong, and how they can do it better in the future.
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Sorry, not gonna read all that. Yes, I kow, WL n00bs are annoying, still they are- however unfortunately- now a fact of existance on CoH for the next few months perhaps till the ones that are inclined to learn the game do, and the ones that aren't leave the game altogether or roll new characters and play them up "proper"...
Do you have to watch who you team with? Yes. But then again you had to before the Winter Lord thingy too, so wah.
The devs don't owe any of us an apology for providing us an extra event above and beyond the release of I3. Yes, it may have been a bit botched up, but rush jobs often are. Would you prefer we had no seasonal events from now on?
So, in conclusion:
Deal.
Thank you.
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You know, I could have sworn I'd already given you 5 stars...no matter situation remedied.
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There is a game for this, it's called "Progress Quest."
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Level 16 Dung Elf Birdrider Drakkrax, at your service!
Heh, well thanks.
What kills me is that this whole "WL phenomenon" will continue to be 'the cause of all things wrong with the CoH playerbase' well beyond the time when its actual impact has died away...
...until the next PLing exploit either goes live or gets discovered. Someone's always gonna get cheesed that they didn't figure it out first.
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In general would it not be to create an environment where there are more subscribers? The servers were yellow during the WL event and now they are not.
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The problem with this theory is that people come back for challenges. The WL was like getting crack injected into your eyeballs. It was just an XP frenzy. There is a game for this, it's called "Progress Quest."
If the WL was here all the time, sure we'd be yellow dotted. And it would last a month then everyone would get bored and quit. Then there would be fewer subscribers than before, because some of those that became XP addicts might otherwise have enjoyed the game for its gameplay which is good and the content which is getting better.
PL events do not help the game. They help more experienced players level up alts and so maybe cause a return of some interest on their parts, but there are better ways of doing this.
I suggested some playtime rewards. If you hit a certain number of hours played, you could receive a bonus of starting a toon at L14 with your travel power. Another level hit, you could start at L22 and have access to SOs. Another level hit and start one at L27.
This way now it is considered a reward, and by doing it in a way that it is rewarding playtime, you have experienced players who are not going to be screwups getting access to a pre-levelled toon. Now you have the beneficial side of an XP event like this without the drawback site, which is saturating the servers with players who don't know how to play.... no doubt players who will soon become frustrated both at the pace of progress because they used to have it easy, and now this "sucks" and players who don't know how to handle difficult villain groups because they never cut their teeth on skulls to learn the basics. Players who would otherwise be the experienced and dependable players who love the game in their 30s, now have quit to find something else.
That's why it's bad.
Not because a dude with a L50 used it to skip some boring levels that he's seen 10x already, and moved his Kheldian in a position to play with friends in his SG. That is beneficial to him and keeps his interest in the game.
There is some pro and con here, and it would be nice if the devs explained what they were trying to achieve with this, what went right and what went wrong, and how they can do it better in the future.
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Your conjecture that a month of WL and the yellow dots would go back to green. This is probably true, but that would not be what I wrote. I wrote expect more of the same. What would that be? A few weeks every few months of giant monsters, not an unending WL event.
Why? Because it added interest and people. More people means more money. More money means boss-type people tell devs 'Do it again!' And that could even be to the point of destroying the game. It depends on how smart the bosses at CoH are.
If the base said, "Please no more WLs." that doesn't mean anything because we were still playing doing missions, etc. If they quit because of repeated WLs, then you might see a change.
But if all that happens from WLs is a lot of complaints with higher profits during the time of WLs due to increased volume, we must expect more of the same. We are only in charge as customers when we speak with $. If a million people grumble about your business but keep using it, why would you change practices? If no one buys it, but everyone says how great it is, how do you keep your doors open?
And you assumed they WLed us for the benefit of people quickly leveling to travel powers, which seems reasonable I will admit. Follow the path, then those same people now have a level 15-20 toon that needs DO enhancements and has not nearly enough influence. Only 2 things can happen. Acquire influence from another toon or get killed for being too weak for where you are at.
Perhaps the purpose was to be remove excess influence from the game before I4?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Greetings, RadJad56.
I understand your frustration with all of the PL'd players during the WL event. I have been spending alot of time training them myself, and their inexperience does show.
I don't believe that the devs are responsible for the problems caused by so many inexperienced players leveling up too fast, it is the responsibility of the players themselves. If they are dead set on PL'ing their way as high as they can go, then it is their responsibility to learn how to play their AT's properly.
The fact of the matter is that some people don't really know how to play in a MMO environment...they play as if they are still in a single player RPG environment, and their ability to cooperatively play, sans any hacks or cheats, is sorely lacking. The ability to get all the powers thru cheating or PL'ing without really understanding the mechanics behind using them properly is like putting a civilian in the middle of a war, armed to the teeth, and expecting him to understand the idea of military tactics and strategy.
Peeps have been doing this since launch, either through PL'ing or sheer luck, getting high level characters and then doing completely ignorant or irresponsible things, such as aggro'ing a room full of Tsoo Green Ink Men while half the party is AFK, or other similiar random acts of lunacy.
Yes, I agree that the WL event really highlighted an issue; the fact that when such an event is allowed to go on too long, there is bound to be a unbalanced number of players who's experience has yet to catch up with their high level AT. The Holloween event had a similiar effect, but since it didn't last as long, the effects were not seen in the larger picture of the gameplay.
I think that they (the devs) worked really hard on making this event one to remember. The downside was that so many people saw it as an opportunity to PL their AT's without regard for how their inexperience was going to affect others.
We just need to use our experiences to make sure that the inexperiences of others don't put us in situtations that might result in our incurring debt. Debt is easy enough to deal with....it is the players who feel that PL'ing without learning their powers and the tactics behind them that is the real prob.
So, try and send a PM to the devs or even create a thread here, and ask them if they could, with future events, to tailor them so that it is an enjoyable event, but not one that invites the inexperienced player to progress too fast and then leaves it up to us to nursemaid them through this high learning curve.
Bottom line is this:
We can piss and moan about them, or we can teach them to play the game.
Which do you think will do you more good in six months when you're looking for a team?
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Uh...im not a noob cause ive been playing since beta. Thats how I know.
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You've been playing since beta and you haven't yet come up with a strategy for handling a teammate who plays poorly?
Maybe you should be a little less concerned with other people's learning curves and a little more concerned with your own.
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That makes no sense. Im sorry but deaths by n00bs doesnt reflect a persons skills whatsoever.
If n00b goes into my group, aggroes a bunch 5 levels above the rest of us and gets us all killed...im a bad player?
Maybe you should be a little less concerned with this post and more concerned with making an insightfull comment
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Im kind of curious why someone with such mad skills such as yourself hasnt leveled beyond level 24...
Either you've been in max debt the entire time, rarely play, or you dont really care about leveling quickly (in which case, why are you griping about getting debt again).
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Bottom line is this:
We can piss and moan about them, or we can teach them to play the game.
Which do you think will do you more good in six months when you're looking for a team?
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Well, most people, if given a choice between taking responsibility for their own situation- and therefore making it better- will naturtally choose to complain endlessly and find other parties (WL n00bs and the Devs who apparenrly love them or something) to blame their current situation on instead.
"Oh NOES! Not the bottom line! The bottom line puts an end to my whinefes- er, debate! And then I'll have to go back to coping with life instead of mewling about it, oh the horror!"
Kudos for trying, though. 
And I agree wholeheartedly.
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You know what doesn't make sense? You claim you had multiple level 50s, and yet a few days ago you post a gem like this:
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So i got a respec and cant decide on something-
I originally got Clear Mind which, although helpfull at times, isnt very necessary. I can also give up Gloom, being that im going more for an Emp Defender. Id much rather get Stamina which I hear is awesome.
However, to get stamina, id have to get 2 other powers in the Fitness power pool- but besides Stamina, it seems like a wasted Power Pool and id hate to waste 2 powers just to get stamina.
So my question- Is it worth it to get Stamina?
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You know what I think? Since the WL event, I've seen more people trying to feign coolness by bashing the "n00bs" than actual WL newbies. It's amazing.
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Stamina?? Stamina??? What the... How could you ask if Satmina is worth it and then claim to have 50's??? How the heck did you get to 50 without it??? How did you survive Malta without it? How did you kill a single AV without it? what?? WHAT??? How did you travel with out it? DId you waste slots for end reduction in everything???? how did you do any damage or healing that was worth anything or got you anywhere with end reducers where heals and holds and damages and accuracy were needed???
WHAT!!!!????
Wasted power? How about Swift (slotted for 2 or 3 run speeds you can remove sprint from your tray completely, it uses no end and is always on, and counteracts most of the movement penalties from stealth and such, plus it speed enhances EVERY travel power!) Hurdle it also handy, hurdle and SS are an awesome combo,
AND Health??? How is Health not useful??? Faster than normal regen of hp?? with Health and stamina six slotted it is faster to just stand in a safe spot than activate rest!!
CM isn't Useful??? Have you NEVER fought a single Boss... did you get to 50 without a CoT Mage or a Vampyr?? WHAT???!!!
What's CM? (Not afraid to look dumb to learn something.)
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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what the? why do they need to respond? it was a temporary event, people had fun, people took advantage. so what. move on already.
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Not my point.
It was fun, didnt say it wasnt. But id did sweep in a wave of noobs who are now at my level and helping me get XP Debt.
And the Devs havent said a word.
hmmm
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Maybe their Overall Plan was in fact to put you into Debt?
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I think it WAS their plan. It certainly worked on me. The Winter Lord was the first "monster" I've ever gone up against, and being a typical solo scrapper I tend to have a slightly exagerrated opinion of my own abilities.
I found him, two of the medium sized fellows and six of the little'uns. He was four levels lower than the level I currently am...so... I charged them by myself. Took out all the minions and lieutenants with a few focus chi'd dragon tails...and then the winter lord hit me three times and put me down.
All in all it was a valuable experience because I learned that you can hover your mouse pointer over the villain's hitpoints and find out how many they have. Who'da known? Certainly not I.
After learning that he had 16000 hit points, I decided to refrain from attacking him further...after trying to kick his [censored] two more times on principle.
So all in all...I earned alot of debt, but got a snowball for my efforts, and a grudging respect for monster-class mobs.
The winter event didn't seem to be as "fun" as the halloween one, but it was still a hoot to suddenly come across the winter lord in the middle of nowhere.