[ QUOTE ]
Are we operating in a balanced fashion to the other AT, or are we broken. Right now i say broken, we have not nearly the resources we need to be successful and versatile, if i am wrong I would love to hear from him why.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Lord knows, all the people who are happy with their kheldians and say they are successful and versatile cannot sway your opinion.
Kheldians have a few issues but they are not broken especially when you consider how stone tankers, dark armor scrappers, dark defenders and mind controllers played on release.
I doubt Statesman will come out and say any AT is broken. That wouldn't be good PR even if it were true. One thing to consider. Not every AT is for every player. Maybe kheldians aren't for you.
Captain Booth - Necro / Storm Mastermind
Operative Cole - Soldier of Arachnos
Tango One - Fire / SS Tanker
When the idea of being able to slip between tanker and blaster was first stated I was excited but dubious. Would that situation really arise that often? Ater playing a warshade for some time I have found that switching roles is very useful. Sometimes when a group is being over run, switching to dwarf can relieve the tanker, or grab agro off a squishy about to die. When things are back under control, switch back to nova form and AOE the remaining mobs very quickly.
What can a Warshade do? Dish out masive amounts of AOE in nova and with pets, and then unlike the AOE blaster, switch in to dwarf mode to survive the retaliation = lots of damage done to mobs, most initial agro is shared between the tank and the warshade/dwarf leaving the squishes safe. Once the tank grabs the agro back, switch to nova and finish the mobs in a couple of AOEs.
The END issue with warshades still concerns me, but apart from that I find them great fun to play, and I really think I make a big impact in a team (others my disagree!)
[ QUOTE ]
Kheldians are not supposed to replace Tankers and Blasters, or any other Archetype. They fulfill a unique role. A metamorphic one, if you will. That is, they have the ability, at your discretion or skill, to fulfill many roles within a team. So Kheldians can Blast, Tank, or Control
they can even Scrap or Defend a little. But they were never meant to be better than Tankers, Blasters, whatever. They are meant to be the best at, lets call it, adapting. They are ShapeShifters by nature. We want them to be versatile, and challenging, but not perfect or all-powerful.
[/ QUOTE ]
While, this is not from Statesman but, from Geko. I think I answers the question you are asking as to what role they intended Kheldians to fill. Whether they were sucessful is a matter of opinion.
--Rad
/whereami:
I guess what i am asking is that with limited end, and 4 attacks, say only having 4 damage slots on powers at most you are a POOR blaster in the later game. I played a blaster i know this to be true. Now we look at human forms, when you add in wanting to deal damage or taking any forms really and making them even poor excuses for tankers or blaster, all your human powers suffer. Sheilds get short slotted, holds dont have staying power, attacks are weakened. I have heard that same thing from geko over and over again, as the crying sound of the mid level 20-low 30s kheldians, looking down the road, playing with hero planners, i can not see how keeping them versatile is availible. Keep in mind there about to drop our hit points as well, so now that quick nova to dwarf move will likly get you killed half the time, and with quantums i dont think any of us already think we dont die enough.
Like i said i would like a response. He clearly says that in balance he feels all AT should fill a role, what is my role, and if its versatility then give it to me. Having a 85 percent resist with no def buff and three powers, with no end regen to speak of is not equaling a tanker, having 4 attacks, again with limited end, is not equalling a blaster, then to turn around and have to reslot stamina, hasten and so forth to make a human form again is not going to keep that form versatile. I see as of now a ton of PB all being no form, tough defense sheilds with light form perma and the three melee attacks maxed since those are the only decent damage in the later game. That doesnt sound versatile it sounds lame. What i am asking hopefully to me will point out that just because we get a character that can do many things doesnt mean they do them well, and therefore should be addressed. And hopefully the answer will address many common complaints people have. Funny thing is everyone playing them seems to just say oh well i like them. Well i like mine to, but he has problems, asking those to be looked at is not wrong. And unfortunately it seems those that felt much as i do that the future of this AT is greatly limited rather then asking for issues to be addressed simply stopped playing them. So though when you take a opinon poll most people that have tried them i think side with my opinion in looking at the posts on the forum concerning slotting etc, it seems alot of people (and very good players) have given up on them already. And possible the devs should be addressing that. After all this was our post game content, we have a right to be herd if we dont like something. Im not saying he, or anyone has to agree with me, just merely stating my opinion, and i would like to know his.
Who's really the majority here, people who like Kheldians or people who don't have a clue what to do with them? Me, I'm in the "happy" camp. In my experience my Warshade (35) is quite powerful and being able to go from blaster to tank in the middle of a fight is an amazing ability. You say that Nova != Blaster and Dwarf != Tank. Well freakin duh, they're not supposed to. But if things go bad can a blaster start tanking? If he wants to die after 1 hit, sure. Can a tanker start doing heavy damage when things are going smooth and aggro management isn't needed? Maybe if he's a fire...
It sounds like what you're asking is that we be so overpowered that we can replace blasters, tankers, and maybe scrappers/controllers in any team we joined....ha ha ha. Yea, I'm sure that's gonna happen.
Playing a peacebringer, I have to say, my teammates are quite happpy with my performance.
Our strength lies in the fact that we can fill at different niche at different times in a battle.
Let's take this example:
Yesterday, I was in a Malta mission with my teammates (SK'd at level 25 to level 45 to play with my friends). At the outset, we had 3 defenders and 2 controllers with a fire tank.
Notably lacking was a blaster. I switched to nova form (2 main attacks six-slotted, form is 4-slotted) and was an admirable blaster. The fire tank burned minions and I dealt with bosses quite nicely and took them out of the picture fast.
But then, the fire tank had to go. While controllers at this level are anything but squishy, they did need someone to take initial aggro. So I switched to 5-slotted dwarf form, and pulled aggro. I can't keep all the aggro as well as a build designed for it, but I could shift forms and lay out an AoE, then switch back and tank for the controllers.
Needless to say, my teammates are very happy with my abilities, and they only get better later on with more slots.
I also solo well, having hte ability to lay out an AoE, switch to dwarf form and wreak havok without status effect worries, and then there's TWO self-heals.
Later on, I get glowing touch and a few pool powers that allow me to become a defender support role, aka Pulsar and Glowing Touch.
Now, others can make scrappers in the late-game that perform admirably as well, and some focus on just 2 forms (usually human/dwarf later).
However, for the groups I am part of, I fill both roles (damage dealer and aggro management) well enough that I can support the other ATs. I do it all with one package, though.
Sadly QuiJon, you seem hell-bent on calling the AT gimped instead of seeing that the STRENGTH of the AT lies in flexibility.
You'reery quick to point out that we do nothing BETTER than other ATs. While correct, can you think of a single tank that has (at level 25) 85% resists to all but TWO damage types? Didn't think so. Some tanks have smashing/lethal capped by that level, but unless they have no attacks whatsoever, they don't have ALL damage types capped.
We're weak because we have nictus as a Kryptonite? Not really. All you need is a controller, scrapper, blaster or tanker or defender who goes for Voids first. Unless it's a boss, it's down fast. And sad to state, most of the pickup teams I have been part of are only more than happy to defeat these foes for me after what I can lend to a group. Most of the time, I don't even need to call "Void!" or "Quantum!" to get it taken out of the picture; the players I team with just naturally take them out first.
I'm sorry if those who are disappointed in the Khelds cannot just let the rest of us enjoy the AT, or let others who start one enjoy it (or not) for themselves, instead of trying to change it into "their vision" of what "it should be".
It's fine the way it is, and does not need changing. Perhaps one of the other Epic ATs will be to your liking; if not, play a tank, blaster, scrapper or whatnot. Those need to get to 50 as well.
The Devs have NOT shorchanged us in this content post-50.
I guess this just goes to show you, "You can't make all the people happy all the time".
I jsut wish those with more vocal calls for changes would leave it alone. I enjoy it (as do many others) the way it is, I don't want a buff (just the announced changes are fine and balance things perfectly, IMO) or anything. Khelds are not the be-all and end-all of ATs that give "t3h ubar!" after you hit 50. They just are not.
But they are a great change for those who want to do something different than the standard AT sets.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess what i am asking is that with limited end, and 4 attacks, say only having 4 damage slots on powers at most you are a POOR blaster in the later game. I played a blaster i know this to be true. Now we look at human forms, when you add in wanting to deal damage or taking any forms really and making them even poor excuses for tankers or blaster, all your human powers suffer.
[/ QUOTE ]
To begin with, Kheldians don't get shorted on enhancement slots. We actually get more enhancement slots than any other AT, since every power comes with 1 slot 'out of the box' as it were, and we get more powers than anyone else does. If Kheldians got more slots they would be ridiculously overpowered.
My PB does a great job in a blaster role at level 30. I've run every Task Force, and been either 'the' or 'a' major damage dealer on every team I've been a part of, easily matching or exceeding the damage output of the blasters and/or scrappers.
Versatility does not mean scrapping like a scrapper, blasting like a blaster and tanking like a tank. But you can do one of these things very well, or any two of these things solidly (if well slotted), and if you want you can situationally do all three passably. I decided to go primarily 'blasterish' and if I join a team, I make it clear that that is what MY peacebringer does well. Every PB is as different as the person who plays it, so I make sure my team isn't expecting me to take a significant tanker or scrapper role... my build can't do it. However, in nova form, I can stand toe to toe with a blaster for damage dealing (I have the AOE's 6-slotted), and with Shining shield and Incandescent Strike (1 & 3-slotted, respectively, at the moment) I have respectable damage and durability as a junior scrapper. I can also heal myself, phase shift instantly if I draw too much aggro, etc, etc, etc...
What is a Kheldian's role? A Kheldian's role is whatever role the player built it to fulfill. There is no typical role for Kheldians because there is no such thing as a 'typical' Kheldian.
I sure wish my warshade could phase shift instantly 
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
[ QUOTE ]
I sure wish my warshade could phase shift instantly
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh... I'll admit, I wish mine could, too.
I'm a newbie, with my main only at lvl 14. However, I have teamed with Kheldians on various occasions, and their role seemed obvious to me. Experience. You might be only a level 12 Kheldian, but having brought at least one character to level 50 you know a lot. That knowledge is and of itself an incredibly valuable "power".
The examplar function for advanced non-kheldians provides a somewhat similar function, at the cost of the advanced player not being able to use all the powers they have earned. As a kheldian, there is no cost; you benefit from experience gains as much as the level 12 or 14 rookies you have teamed with.
Thank you.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
I remember being in a team hunting the hollows, I think I mustve been level 11 or so. This team had exactly one of every AT, including a warshade and a PB (me). After about a dozen spawns (they went very very fast) the blaster got upset, and quit the team because he didnt feel like he was necessary.
So tell me again how gimpy the Kheldian blasting power is? For ranged attacks, it just cant be beat.
Then, at level17, a blaster friend and I were doing some Tsoo missions, and he commented about how we needed a melee type on the team to keep the enemies at range. I switch to human form and pop my shining shield (only two slots, but still very good resistance), and we clean up.
You ask me what our role is? Ill ask you what time it is.
Yes, its true that were not uber tanks, uber controllers, etc. We dont have to be. But I can guarantee that when theres no tank, I can be THE best tank on the team. When theirs no scrapper, I can be the best scrapper on the team, and when theres no blaster (or maybe even when there is) I can be the very best blaster on my team.
Yeah, I have WAY too many powers to slot as effectively as a pure tank or a pure blaster. So what? Would you rather NOT have the powers at all? Or do you believe that the devs will grant you 3-4 slots every odd level without completely unbalancing the archetype?
I think PBs are fine (Warshades could use some help - some kind of corpse-targeting system needs to actually exist, and they could really use some endurance reduction in their powers across the board). But more importantly, I think that if we whine enough about where we think they fall short, Devs are going to take away something to re-balance the AT as they fix whatevers bothering you.
[ QUOTE ]
I guess what i am asking is that with limited end, and 4 attacks, say only having 4 damage slots on powers at most you are a POOR blaster in the later game. I played a blaster i know this to be true. Now we look at human forms, when you add in wanting to deal damage or taking any forms really and making them even poor excuses for tankers or blaster, all your human powers suffer. Sheilds get short slotted, holds dont have staying power, attacks are weakened. I have heard that same thing from geko over and over again, as the crying sound of the mid level 20-low 30s kheldians, looking down the road, playing with hero planners, i can not see how keeping them versatile is availible. Keep in mind there about to drop our hit points as well, so now that quick nova to dwarf move will likly get you killed half the time, and with quantums i dont think any of us already think we dont die enough.
Like i said i would like a response. He clearly says that in balance he feels all AT should fill a role, what is my role, and if its versatility then give it to me. Having a 85 percent resist with no def buff and three powers, with no end regen to speak of is not equaling a tanker, having 4 attacks, again with limited end, is not equalling a blaster, then to turn around and have to reslot stamina, hasten and so forth to make a human form again is not going to keep that form versatile. I see as of now a ton of PB all being no form, tough defense sheilds with light form perma and the three melee attacks maxed since those are the only decent damage in the later game. That doesnt sound versatile it sounds lame. What i am asking hopefully to me will point out that just because we get a character that can do many things doesnt mean they do them well, and therefore should be addressed. And hopefully the answer will address many common complaints people have. Funny thing is everyone playing them seems to just say oh well i like them. Well i like mine to, but he has problems, asking those to be looked at is not wrong. And unfortunately it seems those that felt much as i do that the future of this AT is greatly limited rather then asking for issues to be addressed simply stopped playing them. So though when you take a opinon poll most people that have tried them i think side with my opinion in looking at the posts on the forum concerning slotting etc, it seems alot of people (and very good players) have given up on them already. And possible the devs should be addressing that. After all this was our post game content, we have a right to be herd if we dont like something. Im not saying he, or anyone has to agree with me, just merely stating my opinion, and i would like to know his.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I see where you are coming from. I think the Devs might be secretly pleased that not everyone likes Kheldians, as it makes them rarer. I think my warshade is good, but I think my mc/ff controller is better and more fun to play. The big problem is that you get the fun factor by the AT being hard to play, and not by having a nice array of utility powers to play with. As a warshade you basically get blasting/tanking and self buff, with a few weak controlling powers. Is that enough? Playing my warshade, in the same way as playing my mc/ff, makes me constantly think about what I am doing, and that keeps it fun. What it doesn't make it is an uber AT by default.
I can't coment on PBs, but post 32, and now post 38 my warshade really is coming to life. Will I take it all the way to 50? Well, a lot depends on when the arenas hit the test server, as I expect to then switch back to my more fun ATs to get to grips with PvP.
I guess another acid test would be, if it wasn't for the prestige of playing a Kheldian, would you prefer to play another AT instead? The answer is probably yes.
Final thought is that I am enoying playing my warshade, but it is also fair to say it isn't quite the AT we were promised or were expecting.
[ QUOTE ]
Because Lord knows, all the people who are happy with their kheldians and say they are successful and versatile cannot sway your opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are also electric blasters out there with three slots of accuracy and one damage who say they are hitting hard and cannot be talked into more slots of damage. Them saying they are successful and useful to the group also doesn't sway my opinion.
I would rather have a L50 (who earned it) behind his peacebringer than a L40 blaster who got powerlevelled there. But a real L40 blaster, give me him over the peacebringer any day. I don't care how versitile you are, I want someone who can fill their ROLE. You have no role. Versatility is not a role. I don't need you to be versatile unless I have a bunch of PLed newbies on my team who don't know what to do.... *then* your versatility has a role because you get to run around wiping their butts and flushing their toilets when they fail to do their job.
Also PB > Warshade. PB can get by because you can build it as a fairly successful blapper. Warshade you cannot even come within 10 miles of being a fairly successful defender or controller. Not even close. Hell, you don't even have the versatility of an Illusion / Radiation controller... they can tank, supply damage, debuff, hold, slow, buff damage and end. This is versatility that is useful. Not what a warshade brings to the table.
But again, all of us saying that a real AT is better than you will not sway your opinion because you love your toon.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I sure wish my warshade could phase shift instantly
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh... I'll admit, I wish mine could, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto on the phase shift instantly
[ QUOTE ]
What can a Warshade do? Dish out masive amounts of AOE in nova and with pets, and then unlike the AOE blaster, switch in to dwarf mode to survive the retaliation = lots of damage done to mobs, most initial agro is shared between the tank and the warshade/dwarf leaving the squishes safe. Once the tank grabs the agro back, switch to nova and finish the mobs in a couple of AOEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
During the Eden trial yesterday, we had to herd and nuke about 25 times.
Not *once* did a squishy blaster die because of retaliation. Ran the trial 5 times now, and the only guy who died after a nuke was a PB.
Why? Because the rest of the team did their job as they were supposed to. Tanks held agro. Defenders supplied defense. Controllers controlled. In this environment a blaster can do their job and not get squished.
Furthermore, a real blaster will nuke a heck of a lot better than you can with your nuke. If I'm looking for someone to fill that role on my team, it will be a real blaster over your warshade any day of the week. If I can't find one, then I'll look for a PB or Warshade...
*However* I don't know if that PB or Warshade has a Dwarf. I don't know if they didn't slot their nuke because they have so few slots for the powers. I do not know what the heck they decided to do with their toon. It's not reliable when you invite a Kheldian, you don't know what to expect at all. Maybe they decided they're completely a tank and you're hoping for some damage.
That said, if you're a reliable player and I know what you contribute with your idea of a build, then I would rather have you on my team than an unknown I'm inviting for the first time.
It's all about what to expect, and again: it's better to have a guy behind the controls of his Kheldian who can operate it properly than a guy who doesn't know what he's doing behind his real AT. This is all about the *player* though and wanting that *player* on your team because he is good. Has nothing to do with the AT, which in general does not compare to proper ATs.
So, you could say, "(A Kheldian) is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get."
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
[ QUOTE ]
*However* I don't know if that PB or Warshade has a Dwarf. I don't know if they didn't slot their nuke because they have so few slots for the powers. I do not know what the heck they decided to do with their toon. It's not reliable when you invite a Kheldian, you don't know what to expect at all. Maybe they decided they're completely a tank and you're hoping for some damage.
That said, if you're a reliable player and I know what you contribute with your idea of a build, then I would rather have you on my team than an unknown I'm inviting for the first time.
It's all about what to expect, and again: it's better to have a guy behind the controls of his Kheldian who can operate it properly than a guy who doesn't know what he's doing behind his real AT. This is all about the *player* though and wanting that *player* on your team because he is good. Has nothing to do with the AT, which in general does not compare to proper ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's an interesting perspective, and very relevant if you plan to let your Kheldian sit on the LFT list waiting for an invite from someone who knows how to use you.
So bearing that in mind, and adding it with the fact that you're likely to be the most experienced player on any given team anyway, it seems to me that the "role" of the Kheldian is to be the team leader.
If you're making your own teams, then none of that stuff you posted really matters. You know where your strengths are, and you invited people who will cover the weak spots. What's the problem?
The Kheldian role is that they can do a little of everything - and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none.
That role would a whole lot easier with the proposed changes you mentioned a while ago States, any update on whether those will be here before Iss 4?
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to
[/ QUOTE ]
has anyone run/seen 8 man Kheldian teams?
[ QUOTE ]
on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you guys have the idea of "self defense" and "team protection" a bit confused. Kheldians get strong self-buffs in big teams so that *their* defense and offense goes up, defenders have buffs/debuffs that depend solely on their powerset to be able to protect the team, regardless of its size.
Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!
It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...
The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013
[ QUOTE ]
6. What is balance, can you please explain what you mean by balance and what you hope to achieve "balance-wise" when you make changes to the game? Does balance mean, damage balance? Or does balance involve ATs usage? A comprehensive explanation of what balance is and why it is necessary would be greatly appreciated.
There are two levels of balance that I consider. First is Archetype balance is any single Archetype more favored than another in a group? If I play a Defender, do teams say that Defenders are useless and theyd rather have all Tankers? Thats the sign of a huge Archetype issue. This touches on something about the Archetypes, namely that each Archetype must have a well defined role in a group setting.
The second level is Power Set balance. Are any power sets within an Archetype demonstrably better than others? Im not talking about a couple of levels of disparity; sometimes certain sets get access to useful powers at an earlier stage then other power sets. The key, however, is to analyze whether the temporarily gimped power set gets something cool that then tips the scales in their favor at a later point. In other words, when all the powers within a set are observed, is each power set relatively as useful as others?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok so that is from the "ask Statesman" thread this week and he clearly says that he considers balance to be obtianed when all AT have a significant role to fill on a team. So then I ask to him, what is the peacebringer and warshade role? It seems rather blurred in that there is nothing we do well enough to say its ours.
Damage dealing? Well in specific forms but not nearly what the other AT are capable of really accomplishing.
Control? again not really enough meat for this in the power pools just a spattering.
Defender/buff/debuff? again no just not anything there of substance to fill that role either.
Tanker/agro managment? Again passable but i would certainly still want a tanker over a dwarf any day of the week.
So since he brought it up, i would absolutely love to hear his opinion. We already added one AT, he is already mentioning more in the thread, how bout we figure this one out first. Are we operating in a balanced fashion to the other AT, or are we broken. Right now i say broken, we have not nearly the resources we need to be successful and versatile, if i am wrong I would love to hear from him why.