So Statesman what is our role then?

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Make that 11. In the hands of a skilled and tactical player, Khelds rock. By the time you level a toon to 50 and unlock Kheldians, you should be just such a player. If you're not, that's not the devs' fault.

But the amount of killing power/tanking power/etc has very little to do with how much fun they are. Some people like a more focused role, or a more humanoid avatar. More power to em. If you don't like playing with all their powers, either pick powers you do like or play another archetype.

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I will assume all the "you" and "you're" found in your post are generalizations and not aimed at me since my post history reveals no negative comments about kheldians. As tired as you and the other "10" are of the negative complaints is equal to how tired I am of the endless counter arguments. True to most forums the mob mentality rules. Wether it is "omg kheldz are teh sux" or "I got mad video game skillz and me loving kheldians proves it" the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

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Where I say "you" and "you're" I also say "if"

So "if" it applies to "you" then so be it. If it doesn't, then it applies to someone else. I don't know you and haven't researched your post history, so I have no idea.

The "mob mentality" garbage is just insulting though. It's quite possible for somebody to have an opinion formulated on the basis of fact and experience that happens to concur with the opinions of "10 other people."

Obviously, I like Kheldians. Not because I'm a mindless crowd-following drone but because I actually have FUN playing them. I'll probably still have fun playing them when they have blaster hit points.

After enough crying from those who don't like the archetype, I'll still have fun playing them when they have 4-slots every odd level, do blaster level damage in dwarf form, and even when the shapeshifting powers get gimped with a 10 minute recharge because they're now overpowered.

Personally, I don't like playing tanks, and I've found scrappers to be very frustrating. My solution wasn't to demand changes to tanks and scrappers, but to just simply not play them.

Unfortunately, if you don't like this epic archetype, you don't get to play a different EPIC archetype. So those who don't like this one feel very put out. They didn't get their level 50 prize, and I do feel bad for those people. But crying to have it changed to something they WILL like (invariably more scrapper-like it seems) is not the right way to solve the problem.

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The "mob mentality" garbage is just insulting though. It's quite possible for somebody to have an opinion formulated on the basis of fact and experience that happens to concur with the opinions of "10 other people."

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Thats my point. I guarantee you everyone you consider "crying" will have their opinion based on facts as they see it. Just as you base your opinions based on facts as you see it.

Labeling folks as crying is insulting and the thinly veiled "im a better player because I like kheldians and you don't" is the pot calling the kettle black if you want to start pointing out what is insulting.

I like my human only Peacebringer but their are a couple real problems with him that I see based on my own ingame experiences. I can argue back and forth with you all day about it and the result will be the same. You like your kheldian and consider people who "cry" wrong. I like my kheldian and consider people who like them as I do no more a skilled player or knowledgeable about CoH as folks who spend their days "crying".

You're the one who lumped yourself in with my self proclaimed "10". The point of my post was to point out to Alyssa that although the same 10 people are complaining it is the same 10 people saying the same thing only on the other end of the spectrum.

You said make that 11 and proceeded to let us all know the "skill" at which you possess and the lack of skill of those complaining. (reminds me of Napoleon Dynomite and the whole skill thing they talked about since playing CoH doesn't take any skill.)

So in conclusion enjoy your kheldian as I am. Know that skill in CoH is like skill in chewing gum the platue comes early. And people will complain and folks will then complain about the people complaining. That is the forum mob rule I wanted to point out. Not that you like your kheldian because Alyssa does.

Come play a Warshade and then make the same statements. Even the people defending them point out that PBs have it better. Group members playing PBs are doing fine for the most part. Everyone else in the SG with a Kheld (27 L50s) has abandoned their shade save me and I am just holding out in hopes that the devs will fix the severe endurance problem and random aggro issue.

As far as naming any blaster at L23 that can out DPS you. That's a pretty simple task. I know Fire/Energy would be able to do it with ease. Several other combos should be able to as well, but Fire/Eng is the only one I have experience with.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

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Damn straight. Every AT has weaknesses and strengths.

I learned my strengths and weaknesses as a scrapper, as a blaster, as a defender, and a kheld.

I've never complained about them to the degree I see on these boards. So yes, I feel obliged to make sure people know that khelds DO have a strength, and it is known about.

It jsut seems that the viewpoint gets so skewed with this talk of "you can't do a, b or c well", yet the magic is in that you can do all of them. Having played squishies and non-squishies, the power of turning from squishy to non-squishy seems to be seriously overlooked.

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The saddest part is that it is easier to make a Fire/Energy blaster into a tank than it is to make a Kheldian good at any role it could possible fill. Other than debt accumulator. It's really good at that.

The easiest way to avoid being squishy is to properly build your squishy. I've came up with all sorts of insane "thinking out of the box" builds that work in ways that other people can't fathom for various other ATs, but WSs have issues that are going to extend further and longer than even my original main did and I had no clue what the hell I was doing when I started playing her.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

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Which is why after I tried the new Epics, I decided that a Claws/Regen Was more epic, and more fun for me to play...just my opinion.

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Heh. The opinion of many other people in my SG as well.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

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Thats my point. I guarantee you everyone you consider "crying" will have their opinion based on facts as they see it. Just as you base your opinions based on facts as you see it.

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Well put, and I don't dispute that. I am not accusing anyone here of following the crowd or complaining because it's the cool thing to do. You must be thinking of someone else.

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Labeling folks as crying is insulting and the thinly veiled "im a better player because I like kheldians and you don't" is the pot calling the kettle black if you want to start pointing out what is insulting.

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It wasn't my intention to make any such claim. As I said before, the killing power/tanking power/etc of the kheldian has very little to do with how much fun they are. A skilled player can maximize all that and still not have fun with a kheldian because it's not what they expect it to be (the best at a particular combat role). An unskilled player can play through a month of solid debt and still love their squid.
People crying about them has nothing to do with their skill level.

The complainers will say over and over again that the class is broken. Kind of like blasters are broken because they're too squishy, or tankers are broken because they can't dish damage fast enough, or controllers are broken because they can't deal damage AND die too easy. There are downsides to every archetype, and if somebody doesn't like the hand he's dealt, he should fold and get a new hand. Not call the dealer a cheat, jump on the table and scream for justice.

The Peacebringer and Warshade "role" is that they can fill any role in a pinch. Everybody heard Statesman say that. If that's not your thing, and you'd rather excel at tanking or be a premium blaster or an unstoppable scrapping machine, then the problem is not with the Kheldian archetype, or even with your skill level. It's with your expectations.

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Come play a Warshade and then make the same statements. Even the people defending them point out that PBs have it better.

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I have to say I agree. I really enjoy playing my WS and will stick him out for the long run, but there are problems.

I am thinking of building a three form build. Not the best at one type, but decent in all three, plus using respecs to change as the need should arise. Making myself as versitile as possible.

I think the AT is just too new to determine how sucessful or what role they play or will play. Or at least to me until we get some that have spent some hours going through to 50 running missions, TF, and trials and doing tests. (Don't look at me though, I am horrible at the math. )

I am patient.

Cheers!

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I like my human only Peacebringer but their are a couple real problems with him that I see based on my own ingame experiences.

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Not to belabor the point, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You approach the archetype whose strength lies in adapability, and make him non-adaptable by selecting a pure human build. That's like taking a regen scrapper and skipping Instant Heal, isn't it? Yeah, naturally that build is going to have problems.

I really feel there's a larger issue here, folks. We keep talking about "adaptability" and "versatility" but the bottom line is that for whatever role it is that we're filling in a team, there's an AT out there that can do it better.

IMO, it would have been much more conducive to gameplay to try to come up with creating a new role to be filled within a team and THEN creating an EAT that would best fill that role. Instead, what they've done is create an AT that's supposed to fill in the blanks.

Again, this is not "best person for the job" it's a plug designed to fit a hole in an unbalanced team, and even then does it in a sub-par fashion when compared to the actual AT that's supposed to be in that role.

I want to be a superhero, not a 3rd string alternate. I want my toon to be wanted in a team because there is a job that he/she does better than anyone else.

For all the decent arguments for Khelds on this thread, and even considering States' statement, there is no indication to me what the Kheldian's role in a team is.

Blasters; They blast. They do damage.
Tankers; Meat shield, they tank and take aggro
Controller; Control and keep the mobs busy and/or not doing damage and/or distracted
Defenders; Defend, prevent the mobs from doing damage to the team and/or heal said damage
Scrappers; Mid range damage to take out individual mobs and aggro control to a certain extent. Clean up crew and often the linch-pin of a successful team.
Kheldians; Getting shot by quantum guys.

There are no jobs left, they're all taken by the real AT's. The mistake, I feel, isn't that the dev's didn't follow through, they tried to add to an existing system instead of expanding the system and then adding an EAT to fill in the new gap.

What would have worked better, I feel, is if they ignored the roles of the other AT's and added something to the game itself that created a NEW role within a team. Then add an AT or EAT that fills that role.

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I like my human only Peacebringer but their are a couple real problems with him that I see based on my own ingame experiences.

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Not to belabor the point, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You approach the archetype whose strength lies in adapability, and make him non-adaptable by selecting a pure human build. That's like taking a regen scrapper and skipping Instant Heal, isn't it? Yeah, naturally that build is going to have problems.

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Naturally it shouldn't according to this quote from Statesman:

The Kheldian role is that they can do a little of everything - and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none

None of my problems with the AT extend beyond playing in large teams where stateman says I should have deffense and ranged offense that is second to none. Playing in human form is the only way to reap a benefit from a large team other then how any AT benefits from being on a large team.

I am failing to see how I am approaching the AT incorrectly. I created him to play in large teams and be what the designer envisioned not to solo and complain that I can't solo even though I chose to go all human.

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Make that 11. In the hands of a skilled and tactical player, Khelds rock. By the time you level a toon to 50 and unlock Kheldians, you should be just such a player. If you're not, that's not the devs' fault.

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This statement is what brought the word skill to my posts. My problem with it being that no matter how much of a tactician or skilled player I am. Kheldians don't do enough damage in human form on large teams and have too many weakness deffensively which goes against what they were sold as. Not by some imaginary voice in my head but by the lead designer and geko who stated that forms are for soloing and human is for teaming.

And I repeat for emphasis that I don't have any problems with my Kheldian soloing because I don't solo with him. If I can't get on a 4 or 5 person team or bigger I log off and do something else.

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I really feel there's a larger issue here, folks. We keep talking about "adaptability" and "versatility" but the bottom line is that for whatever role it is that we're filling in a team, there's an AT out there that can do it better.

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This is true, however... every archetype out there ALREADY fills at least two of those roles. Controllers are also defenders, defenders are also blasters, scrappers and blasters both do massive damage, controllers and tanks both manage aggro.

Now, along come Kheldians who can do pretty much everything. So what's the point of Kheldians? What's the point of controller secondaries or defenders getting Nova?

One way to look at it is that you can cut your team size down and still have all the bases covered. One kheldian and a controller? The warshade goes to dwarf mode, herds a bunch of villains into a corner, the controller mass-holds em, the kheldian blasts them to death then heals himself and partner for the next batch. A three or four-man job done by a two man team with the xp split two ways. Yikes!

Or how about this.... You absolutely must have a tank for this mission, but there are no tanks available on the list. Just that Kheldian. You send him a message begging him to join your team, but he declines with apologies because he just got another PM begging him to come blast, since the other team's blaster just got served divorce papers and had to run.

Or in the middle of the task force, the blaster and the scrapper both vanish because it's a husband-wife team and their trailer was just demolished by a tornado. Lucklily the Kheldian can fill in.

Or how about this... your chronically alt-aholic friend logs on and wants to play with you, and today, she's playing her tanker. Yesterday it was her defender, and tomorrow she's wanting to run her scrapper through the respec trial with you. No problem. Whatever she brings out, you can make an effective duo with her.

In a perfect world, you'd always have the perfect archetype for the job, but in reality, that's not how the game is played.

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Or how about this... your chronically alt-aholic friend logs on and wants to play with you, and today, she's playing her tanker. Yesterday it was her defender, and tomorrow she's wanting to run her scrapper through the respec trial with you. No problem. Whatever she brings out, you can make an effective duo with her.

In a perfect world, you'd always have the perfect archetype for the job, but in reality, that's not how the game is played.

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I only quoted part because to quote it all seems excessive.

What you're saying may be true, but you're missing someting crucial. A kheld only hits baseline with the other AT's when there's three other non khelds in the group. That means that for you to be equally effective as any other AT you have to be a member of a team of four. So, right away, duoing is going to go less favourably with a kheld than with the proper AT because he's less effective by about 20%.

Secondly, you've only shined the light from the other direction on my point. The real meat of the matter is that for all the examples that you've given, the kheld is still the fallback guy. He's the "yah, well, it'll have to do" guy. Even in the examples you're giving the khelds become the less effective, red-haired stepchild of the AT's that is replacing the AT that up and vanished.

My point in all of this, in this post and in my other posts on this thread is the following;

Jack has said, on multiple occasions, everytime there's an opportunity to do so that he wants the players to feel like a superhero. He's made changes to the game to further enforce that (re: The Orenbaga Portal Missions with the ever continuing Behemoth spawns).

And yet, with Kheldians, the best you can hope for is a second rate replacement for the AT that the team is missing... and even then! Only if there are three or more non khelds in the team. So... how is this superhero?

As I said before, seems to me that a Kheldian is nothign more than the superhero equivalent of a substitute teacher.

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I like my human only Peacebringer but their are a couple real problems with him that I see based on my own ingame experiences.

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Not to belabor the point, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You approach the archetype whose strength lies in adapability, and make him non-adaptable by selecting a pure human build. That's like taking a regen scrapper and skipping Instant Heal, isn't it? Yeah, naturally that build is going to have problems.

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Naturally it shouldn't according to this quote from Statesman:

The Kheldian role is that they can do a little of everything - and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none

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I don't get it. What other archetype has ranged offense on the Kheldian scale, combined with the damage resistance and defense that PB's and WS have? The closest you could get would be maybe a bubble defender with tough/weave, right?

That being said, the combination of ranged offense and defense in a large team is already second to none isn't it? True, your defense is not second to none, nor is your ranged offense (blasters have you beat), but the combination of the two is absolutely better than any single archetype or powerset combo enjoys.

My apologies for bringing skill into it. My point there was to eliminate skill as a factor, since we've all been to 50 and back at least once and should be skillful enough to play a Kheldian. It's all about what you want to do with one.

Yep Warshades have some issues that need some attention.

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Or how about this... your chronically alt-aholic friend logs on and wants to play with you, and today, she's playing her tanker. Yesterday it was her defender, and tomorrow she's wanting to run her scrapper through the respec trial with you. No problem. Whatever she brings out, you can make an effective duo with her.

In a perfect world, you'd always have the perfect archetype for the job, but in reality, that's not how the game is played.

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I only quoted part because to quote it all seems excessive.

What you're saying may be true, but you're missing someting crucial. A kheld only hits baseline with the other AT's when there's three other non khelds in the group. That means that for you to be equally effective as any other AT you have to be a member of a team of four. So, right away, duoing is going to go less favourably with a kheld than with the proper AT because he's less effective by about 20%.

Secondly, you've only shined the light from the other direction on my point. The real meat of the matter is that for all the examples that you've given, the kheld is still the fallback guy. He's the "yah, well, it'll have to do" guy. Even in the examples you're giving the khelds become the less effective, red-haired stepchild of the AT's that is replacing the AT that up and vanished.

My point in all of this, in this post and in my other posts on this thread is the following;

Jack has said, on multiple occasions, everytime there's an opportunity to do so that he wants the players to feel like a superhero. He's made changes to the game to further enforce that (re: The Orenbaga Portal Missions with the ever continuing Behemoth spawns).

And yet, with Kheldians, the best you can hope for is a second rate replacement for the AT that the team is missing... and even then! Only if there are three or more non khelds in the team. So... how is this superhero?

As I said before, seems to me that a Kheldian is nothign more than the superhero equivalent of a substitute teacher.

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Well 1st off they are changing it so Kheld start at the same base as everyone else. So the 1st part of the argument is moot. As for the 2nd part, there are lot's of superheroes in comics who are the "fall back" guy, or the 2nd choice. and we love them anyway. I would rather be someone who can adapt to any role than being stuck in one specific roll. My favorite thing right now as a lv 50 blaster is rezing someone and having them say "wow thanks I didn't know blasters could rez" Do I rez as well as a Defender or controller? no but it's still appreciated and it's still cool.
I understand where you are coming from; but I think that you are in a minority. Most people I've spoken to are content with the eat's or they say they will be once the -30% goes away.
Having said all that, I still don't like Kheldians (or scrappers, or tankers, or defenders....) .

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The way I am playing my warshade right now is to not slot up Nova, but put all my slots in human form, at least until I see Dwarf and decide if I should slot that up.

To be honest I hate being in Nova form. I don't like the look of the character. Right now I have Nova just so that I can fly at lvl 6, and because I prefer that versatility to Orb Death or Grav Snare.

I will be slotting up my resists and attacks as a human form and try to get as many of the human form powers as I can. The only power pool choices I am getting are Hurdle/Health/Stamina and possibly Hasten.

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This is the biggest problem I have with the Kheldians. Nova's not fun and Human's not powerful (it's outclassed by Defenders in both the ranged offense and defense categories).

If Nova was fun, or Human had damage between a Defender and a Blaster, I'd be all happy with them.

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What you're saying may be true, but you're missing someting crucial. A kheld only hits baseline with the other AT's when there's three other non khelds in the group. That means that for you to be equally effective as any other AT you have to be a member of a team of four. So, right away, duoing is going to go less favourably with a kheld than with the proper AT because he's less effective by about 20%.

Secondly, you've only shined the light from the other direction on my point. The real meat of the matter is that for all the examples that you've given, the kheld is still the fallback guy. He's the "yah, well, it'll have to do" guy. Even in the examples you're giving the khelds become the less effective, red-haired stepchild of the AT's that is replacing the AT that up and vanished.

My point in all of this, in this post and in my other posts on this thread is the following;

Jack has said, on multiple occasions, everytime there's an opportunity to do so that he wants the players to feel like a superhero. He's made changes to the game to further enforce that (re: The Orenbaga Portal Missions with the ever continuing Behemoth spawns).

And yet, with Kheldians, the best you can hope for is a second rate replacement for the AT that the team is missing... and even then! Only if there are three or more non khelds in the team. So... how is this superhero?

As I said before, seems to me that a Kheldian is nothign more than the superhero equivalent of a substitute teacher.

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Speaking only for myself of course, I always feel like a superhero with my Kheldian. I can ALWAYS save the day, no matter what needs doing, I can do it.

Going to 50 with a controller, there were times when I felt redundant or useless against certain spawns or in certain teams (With a good tank, controllers aren't all that necessary for instance, and vice versa). With my kheldian, I can't imagine a situation where I can't contribute meaningfully to the team during every second of the mission.

What you're suggesting - creating a new problem in the combat system and empowering Kheldians to be the best at solving it? What problem is more prevalent than not having the right tool for the job? Why create a new problem when there's already this one?

But even so, can you imagine what kind of problem would suit your needs and give Kheldians a simpler role to fill without unbalancing the game and making them must-haves in every team? I'd like to hear what idea you've come up with for this "new problem."

You've missed the point.

There's a difference between enjoying a character in a comic and wanting to play one. And are those characters in the comic books considered "Epic"? I think not.

You can res because you chose to take a power pool as opposed to choosing to play an AT thats entire purpose is be second rate to everything else. Yes, they're both choices, but I can play a blaster/scrapper/tanker/defender/controller and choose not to take that power pool power that places me in the position of doing the thing that the other AT does "better".

A Kheldian is forever doomed to being a bard in the truest sense of the word, "Jack of all trades, master of none". That's all well and good, but in a team scenario, especially in a game that allows for a full 8 member team, the only time I can ever actually see anyone consciously choosing to pick a kheld as a team member over another AT is if they already have a balanced team and are just looking to up the mission exp bonus.

Why?

Well.... why would they? It makes no sense. If I have an unbalanced team, I'm going to choose the AT for the role that's missing. If I already have a balanced team, why would I choose to unbalance it? So, if the only time I'm picking a Kheld over another AT is because I want to increase the size of the team without unbalancing it, then that precludes the idea that the only role that Kheld is filling is as a plug.

All this tells me is that Khelds are there as filler.

"Man, he doesn't really do anything that we can't do ourselves, but he sure is pretty!"

Which server is this? I'm curious which one always has one of every AT in every level range available when you need to put a team together.

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Speaking only for myself of course, I always feel like a superhero with my Kheldian. I can ALWAYS save the day, no matter what needs doing, I can do it.

Going to 50 with a controller, there were times when I felt redundant or useless against certain spawns or in certain teams (With a good tank, controllers aren't all that necessary for instance, and vice versa). With my kheldian, I can't imagine a situation where I can't contribute meaningfully to the team during every second of the mission.

What you're suggesting - creating a new problem in the combat system and empowering Kheldians to be the best at solving it? What problem is more prevalent than not having the right tool for the job? Why create a new problem when there's already this one?

But even so, can you imagine what kind of problem would suit your needs and give Kheldians a simpler role to fill without unbalancing the game and making them must-haves in every team? I'd like to hear what idea you've come up with for this "new problem."

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Being that it's fairly subjective, I can't comment on how you feel when you play your toon. I'm pleased that you enjoy yourself and all that yadda yadda...

All AT's feel redundant at one time or another. Blasters when they're chain mezzed, scrappers when the blaster takes out all the mobs with an AoE, tankers when the controller mass holds and on and on...

My point is that Kheldians serve no purpose other than to plug a hole. If you're happy with that role, then more power to you, but as an epic AT I think Kheldians are ill concieved at best.

I don't have a suggestion about what they could do to add an element to the game that would provide a gap into which a truly epic AT would slide, I was just thinking off the top of my head. But any role that would be would have to be over and above anything the Kheldian could do. I'm not claiming to have any answers, but I do feel that it's valid to say that from the point of view of someone who's put together his fair share of teams that there is nothing whatsoever desirable about having a Kheldian on my team over another AT when there is a specific job to do. The only time I would ever consciously pick a Kheld over another AT is if I already have a balanced team.

And I'm not in the minority on this one, in my experience. So based on that, don't you see this as a problem? If I already have a balanced team then what exactly is a Kheld contributing? I see this as a pretty serious problem.

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Why?

Well.... why would they? It makes no sense. If I have an unbalanced team, I'm going to choose the AT for the role that's missing. If I already have a balanced team, why would I choose to unbalance it? So, if the only time I'm picking a Kheld over another AT is because I want to increase the size of the team without unbalancing it, then that precludes the idea that the only role that Kheld is filling is as a plug.

All this tells me is that Khelds are there as filler.

"Man, he doesn't really do anything that we can't do ourselves, but he sure is pretty!"

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Or maybe he's a cool roll player and will enhance the game experience without worrying about the numbers, or maybe he's just a fun guy to play with and we want him on our team, or maybe he's part of your super group and you want him to be on your team.
I mean Batman can't do anything super, but JLA always want him around cause he's cool.
Aside from those reasons, a jack of all trades is a necessary roll in a group. Otherwise why would the Bard class ever have been invented?
The biggest benefit to playing a jack of all trades is that you get asked to participate in groups more often because your roll is not specific. Why try to get a kheld for a blaster when you have one? Well you don't but maybe he can fill that tank roll your missing because no tanks are on right now. Khelds are always welcome in groups. "oh crap our blasters down, Kheld go help the tank while I rez him".......

Thats why.

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Which server is this? I'm curious which one always has one of every AT in every level range available when you need to put a team together.

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Smart guy.

And to think I actually thought I was on a thread where people were applying brain power when they read the thread.

For the learning disabled; If I'm looking for a team member to fill a role and the only thing available is a Kheld then it's "better than nothing" so I'll take it. If I need a role filled and the right AT is on, why would I take a Kheld?

That's the point. Kheldians fill the role of the absent AT. They are the AT equivalent of a substitute teacher. I find it interesting that with your flippant remark you've managed to further my point by suggesting that Khelds are in fact "fallback" AT's.

"If you can't find the right AT, get a kheld" and that's a poor attitude to have about a superhero's function in a team.

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"If you can't find the right AT, get a kheld" and that's a poor attitude to have about a superhero's function in a team.

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I agree so why are you promoting it?

I don't need to, the attitude is a reflection of the inherent design of the AT.

I've been re-reading this thread and it appears to me that you've been issuing arguments as to why you think the Kheldians are not good. thats cool, that's what the boards are here for. But the trend as you progress through the threads is that you issue an argument and someone refutes it so you focus more and more on the things you dislike and why. Also cool. But what reading this thread has shown me is that you are in the minority with your dislikes of this EAT. So don't play them. No one will force you to play the Khelds. Many people like the way they are now. So I think your best bet is to wait and hope for new more focused EAT's and perhaps you'll find something better suited to your needs. (Like say a ranger type martial arts guy with paired short swords, only one of them can be thrown to vorpal strike people with no attack roll............ )

I can only say that, I for one can't wait for any and all new ats epic or otherwise. I know I may not like them all but I like playing a game with so much variety. It sux that we can't enjoy the 1st Epic at that came out because it doesn't suit our play style, But isn't it great that others do like it. Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......