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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
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Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away. 
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*Personal* defense != *team* defense. The defender's job is to defend the team (buff/debuff), not stand in the middle of mobs and not be hurt. What States is referring to is the fact that a human-form Kheldian in a full team has a (probably) 30 or 40% damage resistance - base - that doesn't even count any toggle shields (at another 27% base resist each).
Show me the defender that has a *personal* 50% resist all.
Kam
With Shadowfall and Dark Embrace I can get at least 50% resist to everything except Fire/Cold. Defenders can herd with toggle debuffs. Its not particularly hard.
I dont disagree that Kheldian have good inherrant resists.
Heroes
Dysmal
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Sam Steele
Pluck
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Slagheap
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Verified
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Villains
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Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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There are also electric blasters out there with three slots of accuracy and one damage who say they are hitting hard and cannot be talked into more slots of damage. Them saying they are successful and useful to the group also doesn't sway my opinion.
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Lets assume that the people who are saying their warshades and peacebringers have done the following:
1) leveled their kheldian the hard way
2) spent time in the training room testing their powers before picking them on live or at least reading this forum
3) put a lot of thought into their builds and the roles they wanted to try and fill
4) slotted their powers with some intelligence
5) aren't talking out of their [censored] or trying to mislead you
In other words, give some of your fellow level 50 players a little credit and the benefit of the doubt. Some of the people who are saying their kheldians are successful are some of the better players in the game and know a lot about their main AT. No one has a reason to give false information or to gimp kheldians.
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I would rather have a L50 (who earned it) behind his peacebringer than a L40 blaster who got powerlevelled there. But a real L40 blaster, give me him over the peacebringer any day. I don't care how versitile you are, I want someone who can fill their ROLE. You have no role. Versatility is not a role. I don't need you to be versatile unless I have a bunch of PLed newbies on my team who don't know what to do.... *then* your versatility has a role because you get to run around wiping their butts and flushing their toilets when they fail to do their job.
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I think it depends on the situation and the team. There are times when I want a kheldian instead of another blaster on my team.
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Also PB > Warshade. PB can get by because you can build it as a fairly successful blapper. Warshade you cannot even come within 10 miles of being a fairly successful defender or controller. Not even close. Hell, you don't even have the versatility of an Illusion / Radiation controller... they can tank, supply damage, debuff, hold, slow, buff damage and end. This is versatility that is useful. Not what a warshade brings to the table.
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If you want to believe that crap then be my guest but I know my warshade is as good as any equal level peacebringer. He's not a blapper but his abilities are nothing to sneeze at. As for a warshade being a successful defender or controller that is not one of their roles. A warshade can fill the role of a tanker, blaster and quasi-dark armor scrapper with pets. A warshade brings to the table versatility that is useful and high resistances (regardless of what form he is in) while adding a lot of damage from pets (regardless of what form he is in).
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But again, all of us saying that a real AT is better than you will not sway your opinion because you love your toon.
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Af for kheldians being better or worse than any AT, it all comes down opinion. Kheldians are not meant to be better than normal ATs, they are meant to be different and challenging. In the hands of the right player they do surprisingly well at high levels. In the hands of someone who has been powerleveled or tries to play the kheldian like he is a standard AT then they are problematic.
You don't have to take my word for it, you can always look me up on Virtue or the training room. Just send a PM and set up a time to meet there.
Will I be able to do the things an illusion/rad controller or a fire tank? No, but I will be able to hold my own. On teams, I will not be constantlly dedfeated or being burden to my team mates.
Captain Booth - Necro / Storm Mastermind
Operative Cole - Soldier of Arachnos
Tango One - Fire / SS Tanker
As I saw it, the devs did a great job balancing the best and worst of a "tank mage" character. Normal tank mages- offensive and defensive powerhouses- are the group-breaker in a game, with few weaknesses and little to no interdependencies.
The devs here took a novel approach: they made the tank-mage group dependent. The bigger the group, the more powerful the tank-mage.
What's its role? Well, that depends on the group and whether its a war or a peace kheldian. IIRC, the warshade amplifies the strength of the group, so a damage intensive group becomes more damaging, while a peace___ balances the group- that same damage-intensive group would see a more defensive counterpart emerging.
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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
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Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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Defender here passing by. Just thought I'd mention. I have herded with my defender. Its was not that hard, though it is significantly more difficult now that werewolves and monkeys have ranged pain but still possible.
Also I have stood in the middle of +2 bosses and soloed them before the boss rollback so I'd say I can benefit myself plenty.
Now admittedly thats because I'm Rad and they have the ability to benefit directly from all but one of their primary powers but still. Defenders are not the helpless little ragdolls you might think we are.
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Because Lord knows, all the people who are happy with their kheldians and say they are successful and versatile cannot sway your opinion.
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But again, all of us saying that a real AT is better than you will not sway your opinion because you love your toon.
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Which just leads me to wonder why you continue to waste your (and our) time by hanging out on the Kheldian boards to bash them. Those of us who like them, and who (dare I say it) understand how to use them and use them effectively, are here trying to learn and to help others enjoy theirs and either use them, or team with them effectively. Exactly whom are you trying to help? What do you hope to achieve? Are you trying to warn everyone off of Kheldians for their own safety? Please, spare me your wisdom and your decidedly simplistic viewpoint of what an effective 'role' is for any given character.
If you think Kheldians suck, then by all means don't play them and don't team with them. Both you and they will be better off for it.
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What States is referring to is the fact that a human-form Kheldian in a full team has a (probably) 30 or 40% damage resistance - base - that doesn't even count any toggle shields (at another 27% base resist each).
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Actually, this is not the case. As of right now, human Kheldians start out with a -30% base resist. That means that in a balanced 8-man team (assume 3 "resist-givers"), the Kheldian will be at 0%. With unslotted shields, 27%. In order to get to 30 or 40% base defense, you'd need to be surrounded by "resist-givers" currently.
True, if the changes mentioned a while back go into effect (still not on Test even), you can make that claim, but right now, on live, those numbers are wrong.
Now, you can get to about 59% resist on everything (little higher for energies) by six slotting all shields and being in the "balanced" eight man team. Surround yourself with "resist-givers" and you can hit the cap 
This, of course, does not take light form into account.
Keep in mind that the same comments can be said of the damage potential as well.
Alyssa,
Many of us are just trying to get problems with the new ATs fixed. It's easy to stick your head in the dirt like an ostrich and say there are no problems at all, when both ATs each have issues. Warshades have serious Endurance and unexplained Aggro issues that appear to be a bug. We just want these things fixed, or they'll fall along the same line as many other powersets have over the past many months. Mind Control, SR, DA, Stone Armor, etc. These have finally had their issues addressed, but only after many many posts of complaints and frustration from a larger player base than even has access to the "Epic" ATs. The community with access to Epic ATs are small, so those of us that do have access to them need to point out the problems or discrepancies with them so when other players eventually get to them they won't have to deal with the beta testing of them that we are.
It is most unfortunate that most people hop in here and tell everyone there is nothing wrong at all with "Kheldians" when the two ATs within the race are as different as night and day. When it comes down to it 90% of the people saying there aren't any problems are playing Peacebringers and the other 10% aren't paying any attention to the fact that they are eating through twice as much end as a Peacebringer with less effect on their Warshade.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
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Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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Storm Summoning and Force Field can herd, not sure of the others. I can herd with my controller using the SS secondary, so I know that a defender should be able to do it better. If I remember correctly Rad should actually the be most effective at if they know how to use RI properly.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Kyrin,
Please post your build so that the rest of us playing a Warshade can take a look at the unique build you've come up with that is useful. After many test respecs at L28 I'm not seeing any lights at the end of the tunnel other than a train.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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bah!!! i've been hearding wolves since herding wolves was herding wolves.
Basically every Def except Kin and Emp can herd, if they choose to do so. Toggle Debuffs (Darkest Night, Snow Storm, the Rad toggels), and I suppose FF could do it with PFF up.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
I've seen defenders herd. Especially wolves and monkeys (prior to issue 3). Particularly radiation defenders.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
Alright, fine, fine, Defenders can herd, my point was, a Defender cannot typically stand around as 3 dozen mobs pound on him. Let's not derail the thread now.
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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
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Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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Storm Summoning and Force Field can herd, not sure of the others. I can herd with my controller using the SS secondary, so I know that a defender should be able to do it better. If I remember correctly Rad should actually the be most effective at if they know how to use RI properly.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
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My level 40 main empathy defender stood next to a level 45 minion yesterday that couldn't touch him. Probably had something to do with 6 slot Manuvers and 6 slot Stealth. I suspect he can herd even con without a second thought. But that is power pool stuff helping him.
Alien 51 - Emp/Energy/Energy Defender
Average Bob - Rifle/Devices/Munitions Blaster
Fusion Avatar - Triform Warshade
Grumpy - Nec/Poison/Mu Mastermind
Metallic Guy - Kat/Inv/Weapons Scrapper
Not that I have played one, but from what I can tell Kheldians are meant to be jack of all trades. Without necessarily being weak or lacking, they just don't excel specifically in any one area. I've grouped and duoed with them, and they seem to do fine. I already know I'm going warshade once I get a 50.
As for the role they fill, they are great all around fillers to have for full teams. I think they compare mostly to defenders, but with a little better damage. Keep in mind most are sugardaddied by their 50s, so they are packed with the best enhancements influence can by, usually. That guarantees a certain level of performance.
Lol, the only issue I have with the Ks are the loud shaking BOOM when they transform....that is kinda annoying.
Just a thought to the OP :
There's not really any role that the normal ATs don't fill.
Your role is just puddy to fill holes as they arise - it's not a major role, no. But that's what the normal ATs are for.
In the manticore Task Force I witnessed the power of a warshade and peacebringer.
without them I think the task force would have taken a very long time. They were awesome.
Sure my tanking was superior in terms of overall damage recieved / negated ( as i'm a tank ) I mean its logical. I was MADE for that job. They however could really assist the group and without them, we would have had a really really tough time.
Kheldians rule! I love them!
You know, it occurs to me now why I don't think khelds are up to snuff in comparison to other ATs. I actually have a regular group of friends I play with, and have done so for months. There is no "we need to cover a gap". If we had a gap to cover in our team one of us did it a loooooong time ago.
In that respect, Khelds are great for folks who do a lot of pickup teaming, but for people with a regular list of friends whom they play with, its just not worth it. If our team consistently needs a tank or a blaster, its better I make a tank or blaster, since that is what I'll be doing for a few months. The ability to change shape into wannabe forms is of no use to a team that gets together regularly and has no 'gap' to fill.
So there we have it, Kheldians are better at pickup teams than any AT out there. Too bad most people avoid pickup teams like the plague ... which is why a lot of us wish it was easier to solo with Khelds, as I know I am far more likely to solo when none of my friends or SG are on (a rare occurance, but it happens).
In the end, if there are no gaps to cover or your regular team makeups are stable, Kheldians lose a lot of their abilities. No gaps = worse than normal ATs (since if you know you'll be the tank for several months, better to actually make a tanker than a stopgap sort-of tanker).
Just a random thought, and of course all mine own opinion. I never said Khelds are not playable, but compared to others they fall behind in fun in my eyes 
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The Kheldian role is that they can do a little of everything - and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none.
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That may be so, but there isn't a Kheldian alive who could take more damage than a good Invuln Tank or deal more damage than properly built Fire / * Blaster. The fact that a Kheld can do both shouldnt replace either of these 2 ATs. Kheldians lose their Nova / Dwarf forms so often at the 35+ levels that the abilty to tank or blast effectively is limited to wether or not you can hold form.....
I think you missed a key word in there, being combination.
I think the reason you see people loose one form or another in later levels is that after about 38 the human form with the right slotting can tank and/or blast pretty well without relying on the forms. I'm not saying this is the only way to go but it is possible.
I'm also not suggesting that there are no problems with the epic at's. Just saying human only can certainly be viable alternatives.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
No, I understand the combi thing. Im just saying that If you need a tank: Get a tank and likewise for any of your specific AT needs.
No one ever says: "I wish we had a Kheldian to tank Infernal"....see what im saying? I see that they have a place in the game for certain folks, I just believe that you should bring the right weapon to the right job and not settle for an AT that may be around 80% as good as the "Real Deal"
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Af for kheldians being better or worse than any AT, it all comes down opinion. Kheldians are not meant to be better than normal ATs, they are meant to be different and challenging. In the hands of the right player they do surprisingly well at high levels. In the hands of someone who has been powerleveled or tries to play the kheldian like he is a standard AT then they are problematic.
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I think this is probably the most concise statement about the Kheldians in this thread so far.
The reason you have to get to 50 to 'unlock' a Kheldian is that MOST (gods I hope) of the people who can get to 50 not only understand their characters but the game and the role of the Archtypes.
They are CHALLENGING to play right out of the box, unlike any of the other AT's. And playing them "Well" (nebulous term) means understanding all 5 of the 'basic' AT's roles well...
If you need/want a specific role to play then Kheldians are OBVIOUSLY not for you. But the mistake that I see made is that Kheldians are some kind of 'reward' for achieving 50.. Endgame material or something. I think that if they opened the AT to any player then they would be terrible. Kheldian players SHOULD never make n00b mistakes and SHOULD understand the game well.
Personally I just LIKE having a role to fulfil so although I have both a PB and WS that I've tried out.. I still play my other alts more.
Other AT's as they become available may tempt me more but for now... meh.
They seem well suited to what they do (though there is an aweful lot of complaints about WS endurance... Or lack therof )
"I burn my candle at both ends, it will not last the night. But Ahhh my friends and Ohh my foes it makes a lovely light!"
Ah, I see. And I agree that a Kheld can not do the job of a tank or a blaster as well as an AT of that type can. If they could that, they would be the end of each of those AT's.
The Khelds I suppose are supposed to be as others have called the swiss army knife AT. Not knowing what the situation will be like before you get there the Kheld is the most capable of adapting to the situation at hand. Maybe not as good as a tank/blaster but probably good enough to see you though some rough spots. And that doesn't mean if you think you will need a blaster or tank you should stop looking for one just because you pick up a kheld.
Again, I am not 100% satisfied with some aspects of khelds, but still find them fun enough for me to keep playing and trying to figure out. I hope some things get further attention.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none
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Umm, isn't that supposed to be a defender's role?
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Defenders have terrible defense and lower range offense than a Blaster. So no.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Thats frigging comedy gold right there. 3/5 Defender primaries have awesome defense. The AT name kind of gives it away.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.