[ QUOTE ]
The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice". This represents an issue, in my mind, that detracts from the appeal of having that AT in the team. If you want a role filled, you want the right AT to fill it. Khelds will do in a pinch, but we all know that if this was a stand alone, single player game where you had to assemble a team that the average person would drop the kheld the second the right team member became available to round out the team properly and that the only reason you'd want to keep one around is if the team was already balanced.
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I have never seen or herd of anyone ditching 1 player that is already on a team in favor of a better AT. Nor would I want to play with those types.
[ QUOTE ]
So what role does a Kheldian fill? Again, I say, they may fit the hole, but they don't fit the role.
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'mean like some people who play the same character over and over and over and over in different incarnations but they're really all the same character? 
Yah, that would kinda suck, I find it hard to imagine how that could be fun or what kind of imaginative sink hole that person may be. 
EDITED FOR SPEELING.
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Actually what I meant was many people playing the same Ats with the same powers would be dull
I think having an intricate background story to your character that delves into a long history of former characters only enriches and improves the roll playing experience of the character.
But I do know what you mean about unimaginative background stories. I heard that there's some Sumerian out there who riped off Conan for his background story..
{Want to come over and play cards? we're having a poker night starting at 9ish...Josh will be here.}
"People in glass houses shouldn't THROW stones. They probably should have used them as a building material."
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For the learning disabled; If I'm looking for a team member to fill a role and the only thing available is a Kheld then it's "better than nothing" so I'll take it. If I need a role filled and the right AT is on, why would I take a Kheld?
That's the point. Kheldians fill the role of the absent AT. They are the AT equivalent of a substitute teacher. I find it interesting that with your flippant remark you've managed to further my point by suggesting that Khelds are in fact "fallback" AT's.
"If you can't find the right AT, get a kheld" and that's a poor attitude to have about a superhero's function in a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally don't see this as a bad thing. But even so, picking a Kheldian is like being able to swap out your Blaster for a Tank without needing to boot someone. Being "good enough" for a couple of things isn't a bad thing, it is, apparently, something you do not look favorably on. Bard's exist, because they can fill in the gaps. I mean, if I want damage I don't JUST look at Blasters, there's plenty of AT overlap as is, and Kheldians take it to it's logical extreme.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice". This represents an issue, in my mind, that detracts from the appeal of having that AT in the team. If you want a role filled, you want the right AT to fill it. Khelds will do in a pinch, but we all know that if this was a stand alone, single player game where you had to assemble a team that the average person would drop the kheld the second the right team member became available to round out the team properly and that the only reason you'd want to keep one around is if the team was already balanced.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough, I always have a team, though. The situation where the "optimum" AT is not available isn't a rare thing. It's the status quo. It happens a thousand times a night on every server, I'd imagine. Certainly on the two I've played.
But what exactly is a "balanced" team?
I don't know what your idea of a balanced team is, but one answer, for most situations (missions, hunting, etc) is a 3-form Kheldian and anyone else. When I log on and one of my regular teammates doesn't immediately shoot me an invite, I can pick literally ANYONE on the list and go to town.
Setting aside the fun-factor of large teams, what's the point of a dedicated tank in a two man mission? You are only going to need one for the boss, so why drag him along for a third of the xp? Unless he can transform into a blaster and fill both roles (like a Kheldian), he's completely superfluous for 99% of the mission, and gets 33% of the xp. Likewise with a second or third blaster, or a defender with a couple of scrappers.
One Kheldian and a controller can herd, lock, and blast spawns on the street as effectively as most 3 man teams and do it for 33% more experience. Strictly from a powergaming point of view, Kheldians make sense on a team. If you're prejudiced against em, you're cheating yourself and your teammates of a more efficient team.
In a task force, where no one can join once they start but people sure do tend to take off a lot... it would be insane not to invite a Kheldian to join up when the inevitable happens.
Granted, a human-only Peacebringer or Warshade isn't useful for these things, but an illusion controller without Flash or an empathy defender who only has Healing Aura in their primary isn't much good for their "role" either. That doesn't mean the archetype is broken, or that their role is ill-defined. Just means that the player ain't trying very hard to fill it properly.
If I accidentally invite a one-form Kheldian, I'm going to be about as upset as if I'd invited a bubble defender who only has Personal Force Field and a bunch of well-slotted blasts. I might just send him down the road with a talking-to, and he certainly wouldn't make my friends list.
If I WERE that one-form Kheldian, I'd probably feel as you do.. that it's not my fault and that the archetype needs serious help and has no real role to fill.
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice".
[/ QUOTE ]
I can understand why you are saying this, and it was similar to my view of what a Kheldian was. However, now I have my warshade at 38 the answer "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" is wrong. My warshade can can now out AOE damage a fire blaster, and I don't have to rely on defenders to survive any return agro fire. Once eclipse is almost perma I will be even better.
How a battle may go. I phase shift, switch on inky aspect and tp intp the middle of large group before anybody else. Their alpha strike doesn't hit me, I turn off phase shift and do eclipse and then sunless mire - now I have 85% resistance and probably and extra 100% + damage/acc boost, plus many of the minions are disoriented. Slip into nova form and unleash my two AOEs - nova has a base damage of 120% of a blasters base, has an aditional +45% damage boost and I have 5 damage SOs in each. Any minion up to +3 is now dead and I just have to finish off lieuts and bosses. Their return fire at this point hardly tickles me because of the 85% resist, which lasts for a full minute and a half.
After a couple of battles I now have two blaster pets helping me out.
It is quite common in pickup teams to now hear, "PL me, I want a warshade!"
As I say, I understand why you don't want a jack of all trades, master of none in your group. However I disagree that this is what we are.
Last plug on this (rather repetitve) thread.
I do not do any role as WELL as a fully-slotted version of what I am supposed to be.
But I come into my own much earlier.
Level 8 blasters vs. Level 8 Khelds? No contest.
Level 20 Tanks vs. Level 20 Khelds? No contest.
Level 30 scrapper vs. Level 30 Khelds? The only contest is perhaps DPS, but by then with a 3-form build, you've got the flexibility to outpace them on many accounts. Not all, but many.
Thing is, when you focus on just one form, it will limit your effectiveness.
Just like any other AT.
Bottom line: If you dislike playing such an AT, then don't play it. It's the reason I did not play a controller up to higher levels. Couldn't stand it. Controll without damage (until pets or somesuch) just never appealed to me.
3-form effectiveness earlier in levels doesn't appeal to you. I understand that, but don't label them gimp becuase of personal preferences. Say so in the post, because new khelds read this and immediately go "there's no hope" and never try to enjoy what's there.
I feel this way and stand on the soapbox because when I was level 48 and read these forums, I felt like I was getting shafted. I started a different normal AT instead.
Then I decided to make one for RP reasons, and I found them quite adaptable, fun, and versatile, and easily able to group. Most of my friends and those who picked me up for a mission felt the same way.
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Which server is this? I'm curious which one always has one of every AT in every level range available when you need to put a team together.
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Heh. On Victory I don't have to look outside of my own SG to find one of every AT in every level range when I want to put a team together. If your server is that sparse you need to find a new home.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Actually Shadow, the majority of the people have already bailed from the Kheldians, at least this is the case on Victory anyway. You can do a server wide search at any time during the day and see the numbers are down signifigantly from where they were in mid-January.
Friday nights being the typical high time for server load there are roughly half (slightly less than half actually) the number of PBs and WSs that there were a month ago when the AT was exciting, fresh, and people had hope that the problems would be quickly fixed.
The number of PBs to WSs at any given time is also at least 4:1 and at times 10:1.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Lol. They better get that Warshade PL'd to at least 32 as well or they're gonna hate it.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that Kheldians serve no purpose other than to plug a hole. If you're happy with that role, then more power to you, but as an epic AT I think Kheldians are ill concieved at best.
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Sheesh. Who is everyone concerned about AT's roles? This is a freakin' GAME people. We play it to have FUN! There are no written or unwritten rules on how people much play or build their characters. If a Blaster want to build and play a Blapper, let 'em. Anyone that can reach the upper levels with miminal use of their ranged attacks is welcome on my team. IF a Defender wants to be an Offender, let 'em. If a Tanker wan't to play a Scranker, let 'em.
The other point I want to make is that even an AT played it "properly" by you definition isn't necessarily going to be fullfulling his "role" on a team. For example there have been many times that my Tanker Fuzun has been the main damage dealer on the team. The teams had been lopsided in terms of now having a Scrapper or Blaster. And the mission were not cakewalks by any means. Several times it was going against Archvillians and Monsters. OMG! A Tanker taking out Archvillians?!?!?!? The world is ending!!!!! Or is that ice I hear crackling from down below the groung?!?
Get over your hangups about roles. The important thing is: Is the character you created fun to play? If not, why are playing torturing yourself? You will not find any controllers on any server among my characters. Why? Because they aren't fun for me to play. It's pure torture to work one through the lower levels. Am I calling for controllers to be scrapped or overhauled? No. Because other people play controllers and have fun doing so. (Although I feel that Controllers need a little bit of a damage boost to even out the pre-pet/post-pet levels. 
)
Ya'll have fun...
So from what I've read the Kheldian seems to fill in gaps on a team. Thats not Epic. Thats.....
Spackle.
Spackle is most definitely not Epic.
Ok, I've read many of the forums. I sent a nasty-gram to the devs about the utter gimpiness and uselessness of the PBs and WSs. And then I rad someone post something like: Would you build an SR scrapper and not take and of his defenses? Would you build a blaster and only take the 2ndary powers? So why build a Kheldian without the forms? This made some sense to me. So I dumped my WS and built a new PB. Yea, it was tough, yea, I screamed and demanded that the human form be ungimped or I'd yank my account. But I kept going. I never took Nova, but at 22nd I took Dwarf. And you knwo what? I'm hitting 28th tonite, and I absolutely love my tank-mage/blapper whatever you want to call him. What's his role on a team? Everything. That's his role. His role is to kick @$$, save his teammates when they're getting hurt, and bring a well roundedness to a team that may be lacking.
Thank you COH. Thank you for giving me an archetype that pissed me off and made me work for the coolness that I now can play.
Bill Z Bubba- 50 Claws/SR Scrapper
Doctor Mordred- 31 Empathy/Energy Defender
Celmor- 28 Peacebringer No squid here
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
It's my suspicion that you've become confused by my repeated use of myself as the subject when discussing why I don't pick Khelds as team mates. I've done so so as not to imply intimate knowledge of the decisions of others, be that or be that not the case. Make no mistake, my eye is on the ball and this thread is about what the role of a Kheld is in a team.
The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice". This represents an issue, in my mind, that detracts from the appeal of having that AT in the team. If you want a role filled, you want the right AT to fill it. Khelds will do in a pinch, but we all know that if this was a stand alone, single player game where you had to assemble a team that the average person would drop the kheld the second the right team member became available to round out the team properly and that the only reason you'd want to keep one around is if the team was already balanced.
So what role does a Kheldian fill? Again, I say, they may fill the hole, but they don't fit the role.
As I've stated, if others like the AT, more power to 'em, but from a team point of view, they serve no real purpose. That's not to say that I personally won't team with them, as some have told me that they won't.
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'mean like some people who play the same character over and over and over and over in different incarnations but they're really all the same character? Yah, that would kinda suck, I find it hard to imagine how that could be fun or what kind of imaginative sink hole that person may be.
EDITED FOR SPEELING.
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This is a good a piece of misinformation as any on the boards. Mistaking your lack of knowledge about an AT for fact is hardly a good reason to exclude them from teams. IF had played one to the upper levels or understood the At, or heck-even asked one what they could do-you might actually be in a postion to speak about the AT. The reality is - that you should probably ask any Kheld what role they can fill in your team before they join because saying you're a PB is much different than saying you're, say a Spines/regen scrapper, where your Ae damage and good healing abilities are understood. Way too much diversity in EAT builds to be pigeonholed. However, they are NOT secondary, or subsitute teachers or spackling or whatever peopel have called them, by nature-its just that some builds are overly diverse/broad and may appear that way.
For my current build, I generally tell them that I am the best AE blaster in the game, and its pretty much the truth. With Nova form slotted up-I put out unrivaled steady DPS, and with conserve energy and end regen of Nova, I never run out of end. I can blast non-stop. So no, I don't have a blast that rivals 6 slotted inferno for the 'one pop' kill, but I guarentee I can apply several times the damage in the time it takes to use the power and get back up to speed and ready to deal more damage. Add to it that I dont need a healer to babysit me while I most folks find I'm pretty easy on a team. WHen I get agro, I can drop out of form for self heals or even tank anything that attacks me if there is no tank or controller to yank it off me. I'm pretty self sufficient, even on a team. When I have the luxury of good support classes, well, we all know how good a nicley balanced team can be.
Other folks playing EATs might have much different slotting and might tell you a very different role they can play on your team - try asking next time and learning how to play with the EATs rather than learning how to exclude them.
Good luck to you all!
Imo keldans have it hard because. a)thay are realy at thier best in a full groop. and b)what thay add is versititly wich is more uefull in a small groop.
if you have an 8 man party chances are you got eveyting a keldan can do coverd better. i havent seent this incrase damage in larg groops helping much but i am only level 21 so maby later it comes into play.
on a 4 man team we are definatly sup par but can fill more than one role but do so sub par.
and a last thout to think about. keldans are realy still in beta expect a lot of changes to come.
One thing they could do that would make Kheldians more useful to a group is add their Cosmic Balance to all forms.
Think about it. Solo that would have no effect at all. In groups it would come in to play and the larger the group the more effect it would have so Kheldians would still seek groups and they would be wanted by groups.
I think the reason most people stopped playing Kheldians is because they expected an over powered super class. After all you reach lvl 50 to unlock it so it must be good. Then we found out that its not even equal to other classes but rather sub par to regular classes. So people quit out of disappointment.
I think the dev's were thinking people who hit 50 can un lock this extra challenging class to play while the players were thinking they could get an extra powerful class at 50 as a reward. This is where the problem is.
[ QUOTE ]
The key, however, is to analyze whether the temporarily gimped power set gets something cool that then tips the scales in their favor at a later point. In other words, when all the powers within a set are observed, is each power set relatively as useful as others?
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Added the appropriate emphasis. Kheldians may be outdone by other ATs power by power, but as a SET they are spectacular. They don't just fill in gaps in a team. I use them on teams that lack gaps. They ENHANCE the team. You don't have ONE tanker, you have TWO. You don't have FOUR damage dealers, you have FIVE. You have a THIRD controller to help with holding a boss. One Kheldian goes a long way. I think of them as Hamidon Origin enhancements. Hamies add bonuses to TWO stats. So with all Hamies, you get an effectively high amount of SOs. Even if you compare Titan or Hydra enhancements, which are naturally WEAKER than SOs, they still buff MULTIPLE stats making them better than solid SOs. Effectively, even if they only offered a 20% bonus, that's 20% to TWO stats, or 40% total. That's more than an SO. You just need the right power to take advantage of both stats, or with Kheldians, the right player behind them.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The key, however, is to analyze whether the temporarily gimped power set gets something cool that then tips the scales in their favor at a later point. In other words, when all the powers within a set are observed, is each power set relatively as useful as others?
[/ QUOTE ]
Added the appropriate emphasis. Kheldians may be outdone by other ATs power by power, but as a SET they are spectacular. They don't just fill in gaps in a team. I use them on teams that lack gaps. They ENHANCE the team. You don't have ONE tanker, you have TWO. You don't have FOUR damage dealers, you have FIVE. You have a THIRD controller to help with holding a boss. One Kheldian goes a long way. I think of them as Hamidon Origin enhancements. Hamies add bonuses to TWO stats. So with all Hamies, you get an effectively high amount of SOs. Even if you compare Titan or Hydra enhancements, which are naturally WEAKER than SOs, they still buff MULTIPLE stats making them better than solid SOs. Effectively, even if they only offered a 20% bonus, that's 20% to TWO stats, or 40% total. That's more than an SO. You just need the right power to take advantage of both stats, or with Kheldians, the right player behind them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent analogy!
I think Kheld's will rock in PVP. Self healing, dull pain, tanker form and blaster form, quantum flight when the going gets bad... sheesh, I can't wait for pvp, I'll prolly pvp my kheld more than my 50 scrapper or 50 tanker.
[ QUOTE ]
You have a THIRD controller to help with holding a boss
[/ QUOTE ]
Hold a boss? With what???
Since "flash" does not work on bosses, I suppose you're talking about Incandescence Strike?
Oh, and if 1 HOld power= a controller, than my blaster is a controller.....
We only have 1 hold power and NO buffs/debuffs...
It takes A LOT more than that to make a controller....
[ QUOTE ]
I generally tell them that I am the best AE blaster in the game
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen this argument(and variations) over and over again. But enough is enough.
You say Nova is the best AoE in the game?
I don't want to say that Nova's damage is weak, far from it!
It's VERY good!
But please...better than an AoE blaster? ...........
...I am sorry to tell you but the AoEs blasters you've been playing with must be pretty bad....
Not bad, but PRETTY bad!
For crying out loud.... have you seen an AoEs Fire/dev blaster in action?
We mow through +2s,+3s,+4s, 5+s and +6s.....
It's the "Self power-level" blaster....
I do love Nova form, very good blaster indeed! Pretty powerful.
But not THAT much
Please, don't push it too far.....
OF COURSE WITH INCANDESCENT STRIKE! Or Gravity Well if you're a Warshade.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The key, however, is to analyze whether the temporarily gimped power set gets something cool that then tips the scales in their favor at a later point. In other words, when all the powers within a set are observed, is each power set relatively as useful as others?
[/ QUOTE ]
Added the appropriate emphasis. Kheldians may be outdone by other ATs power by power, but as a SET they are spectacular. They don't just fill in gaps in a team. I use them on teams that lack gaps. They ENHANCE the team. You don't have ONE tanker, you have TWO. You don't have FOUR damage dealers, you have FIVE. You have a THIRD controller to help with holding a boss. One Kheldian goes a long way. I think of them as Hamidon Origin enhancements. Hamies add bonuses to TWO stats. So with all Hamies, you get an effectively high amount of SOs. Even if you compare Titan or Hydra enhancements, which are naturally WEAKER than SOs, they still buff MULTIPLE stats making them better than solid SOs. Effectively, even if they only offered a 20% bonus, that's 20% to TWO stats, or 40% total. That's more than an SO. You just need the right power to take advantage of both stats, or with Kheldians, the right player behind them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. This is an excellent analogy.
If THAT is being a controller...... my fire/dev is a controller, after all.....
As I said, 1 hold does not make a controller...
1 heal other does not make an empath....
No buffs/debuffs so not a defender neither..
Khelds can be Tankers or Blasters. We can't be defenders nor Controllers.
Alone, no we probably can't, but with other Archetypes, yes, we can. That was his point.
Along with other archetypes, I've held Archvillains using Incadescent Strike
Didn't read the whole thread. But most of the people who don't play khelds haven't a clue.
It is an advanced AT. It isn't supposed to be Epic as in better then all the other AT.
From my PB playing I know that I have a character that has.
- 3 Mez protections.
- 3 Sniper attacks. One of them being AOE means I can attack outside without ever being hit, and inside rarely.
- 2 Nova AOE attacks that for the most part wipes out large groups with ease.
- I have a reasonable tank shell that can out last insane amounts of holds/mez/hits.
- All my attacks lower the defense of the mobs. Meaning MY TEAM kill stuff a lot faster.
- I have three self heals and one heal other.
- 2 controller based attacks, 1 of which is AOE.
- IS can hold an AV if done correctly.
- In Light Form I can actually solo AV with it. It even allows me to nuke with no negative effects.
- Self Rez and instant Phase.
Other whines I've heard is spawning Voids/Quants/Cysts. Nearly all Kheld based mobs are easy to kill. I can even solo Cysts in Nova form or Dwarf form once you know what to expect.
But where the PB really shines is in a team. The Cosmic balance gives a huge boost to the PB when in human form, Nova gives long range debuff/culling large groups and Dwarf can be used to control groups that are overruning the squishies.
So for the people who go on about how they won't run with a Kheld. Fine. Try playing on a team of 8 Khelds and telling me it sucks. :P
As for WS only gotten to level 15 at the moment (just recently started it). On a team of 1 tank, 1 PB, 2 WS we were all fighting purples, large groups and killing them in seconds at that level.
Necroposting FTW!!
"You know it takes more energy to Frown than it does to smile?
""You know it took more energy to point that out than to leave me alone..."
It's my suspicion that you've become confused by my repeated use of myself as the subject when discussing why I don't pick Khelds as team mates. I've done so so as not to imply intimate knowledge of the decisions of others, be that or be that not the case. Make no mistake, my eye is on the ball and this thread is about what the role of a Kheld is in a team.
Yah, that would kinda suck, I find it hard to imagine how that could be fun or what kind of imaginative sink hole that person may be. 
The answer to that final question is "To fill in the gaps where other AT's are missing" and my final assessment is that if the proper AT is not present to fill that role, then a Kheld will have to "suffice". This represents an issue, in my mind, that detracts from the appeal of having that AT in the team. If you want a role filled, you want the right AT to fill it. Khelds will do in a pinch, but we all know that if this was a stand alone, single player game where you had to assemble a team that the average person would drop the kheld the second the right team member became available to round out the team properly and that the only reason you'd want to keep one around is if the team was already balanced.
So what role does a Kheldian fill? Again, I say, they may fill the hole, but they don't fit the role.
As I've stated, if others like the AT, more power to 'em, but from a team point of view, they serve no real purpose. That's not to say that I personally won't team with them, as some have told me that they won't.
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it suck if everyone played cimmerian fist version 1,2,3,4,5.......
[/ QUOTE ]
Y'mean like some people who play the same character over and over and over and over in different incarnations but they're really all the same character?
EDITED FOR SPEELING.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!