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No, I understand the combi thing. Im just saying that If you need a tank: Get a tank and likewise for any of your specific AT needs.
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Actually, this is a very simple-minded statement. In my experience, when you create a team, you don't have the luxury of picking and choosing this AT and that. More often than not, you try to create the best team you can with whoever is LFG at the time.
That said, if I've grouped with someone before and I know that that person is a really good player, I'm going to do my best to make sure that I make a spot for him or her on my team. That's how I feel about this one Peacebringer that I grouped with the other day -- she was awesome. Maybe she dind't have the dps or the tanking ability or whatever. BUT she is one of the few people that I've met in a pickup group that I know I can always count on. I saw her switching roles on the team as needed, and it was a wonder to behold.
No one here will deny that Kheldians are more challenging to play than the more traditional ATs. They are SUPPOSED to be more challenging. But I'd sooner take a Kheldian that knows how to play well over many of the tanks and blasters that I've recently had in my pickup groups that didn't seem to understand anything about tactics or agro management or even not to wander around on their own agroing additional groups on us.
I can't argue whether or not there are real issues. I don't know myself how much harder it is to get a team invite as a Kheldian. Only thing I know is that, I personally have no problems with having one or more of them on my team, regardless of what the mission is.
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No, I understand the combi thing. Im just saying that If you need a tank: Get a tank and likewise for any of your specific AT needs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, this is a very simple-minded statement. In my experience, when you create a team, you don't have the luxury of picking and choosing this AT and that. More often than not, you try to create the best team you can with whoever is LFG at the time.
*** snip ***
[/ QUOTE ]
Precisely. I've sat there for upwards of 45 minutes with a group of players assembling for a TF or for an attack on an Archvillain because we were waiting for a tank or an empath.
A well built kheldian can fill in several roles. He can fill in for a blaster, tanker or controller. He's not as good as any of the "true" ATs, but he can do the job well enough when you can't find the exact one you need. Or even better, if you have one of the "true" AT types and he goes down, the kheldian can fill in as needed.
This happened just the other day. I was soloing when a controller asked for my help with his mission. I was switching back and forth from dwarf to nova and back again, sometimes in the middle of the battle, doing different jobs as the situation needed.
For example, I started as a nova, opened with a single target blast to pull a bad guy. It didn't work, 4 of them aggroed and charged. The controller fired an AoE hold and got 2 minions, but the Lt and Boss went after him. I fired an AoE blast at them, injured both, knocked back the lt, but the boss was right on top of the controller. The boss pounded the controller and stunned him. I switched to dwarf and taunted the boss and lt away, kept the boss busy until the controller was able to shake the stun off. The controller fired another AoE hold and single target hold, locked down both the lt and boss and the one minion still standing, I switched back to nova and AoE blasted the bunch a couple times to finish them off.
That was pure fun.
I've posted here many times as a friend and teammate to many kheldians, so I'll keep that up.
Last night I decided to take a break from missions to streetsweep Brickstown for my last 1.5 bars until 37. I sent out a message to my SG asking anyone if they wanted to join me, since soloing gets lonely, even for scrappers. Another scrapper and an elec blaster joined me, soon followed by a level 36 Warshade.
We tore Brickstown a new one.
What was the Warshade's role? Destruction. At that point he had his human form pretty well slotted, so he was running around blasting, extracting pets, and blowing things up. Even when we moved to Crey's Folley and somehow got seperated, I noticed he was killing just as much solo and the scrapper and I were killing duo.
So what's the role of a well slotted Warshade on a team? A damage deal with range, defense, and pets. And quite a good one at that. If you got to 50 with your main to unlock kheldians, you should have access to supergroups and tons of friends. Use them, since they won't decide to pick some random idiot off the street over you just because they happen to be an actual tanker, especially with WL kids out there.
I think you are reading a little too far into my "Simple Mindedness". My argument is that no matter what the circumstances are, a Kheld will NEVER be better than the AT it is trying to emulate. That is all. I know about the difficulty of finding teammates and such.
Again, I know that they have their uses. Im not denying that.
Oh and LOL, your avatar. Foce of Nature, huh. LOL. Me too. I always thought that was funny as well. Maybe it's Italian. Rhymes with sotto voce...hehe 
I was really wanting the devs to get off the full team kick. I can count on one hand how many times I have been in a full team in the last 6 months and I team every chance I get. I just wish I could be the power house states claims he wants kheldians to be in full teams without having to find 7 others to help me become that. 
I'm still a bit miffed that my "Use the FOCE" campaign didn't usurp "Kill Skuls."
But, yeah, they can't replace other ATs, but by level 32, they become an AT onto themselves that'll be perfect for any team.
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Af for kheldians being better or worse than any AT, it all comes down opinion. Kheldians are not meant to be better than normal ATs, they are meant to be different and challenging. In the hands of the right player they do surprisingly well at high levels. In the hands of someone who has been powerleveled or tries to play the kheldian like he is a standard AT then they are problematic.
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I think this is probably the most concise statement about the Kheldians in this thread so far.
The reason you have to get to 50 to 'unlock' a Kheldian is that MOST (gods I hope) of the people who can get to 50 not only understand their characters but the game and the role of the Archtypes.
They are CHALLENGING to play right out of the box, unlike any of the other AT's. And playing them "Well" (nebulous term) means understanding all 5 of the 'basic' AT's roles well...
If you need/want a specific role to play then Kheldians are OBVIOUSLY not for you. But the mistake that I see made is that Kheldians are some kind of 'reward' for achieving 50.. Endgame material or something. I think that if they opened the AT to any player then they would be terrible. Kheldian players SHOULD never make n00b mistakes and SHOULD understand the game well.
Personally I just LIKE having a role to fulfil so although I have both a PB and WS that I've tried out.. I still play my other alts more.
Other AT's as they become available may tempt me more but for now... meh.
They seem well suited to what they do (though there is an aweful lot of complaints about WS endurance... Or lack therof 
)
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You just made my point exactly. I played a blaster for 900 hours to reach level 50 i know exactly what my role is and how to play on team. I have played scrappers, defender, controlers, other blasters, A tanker is about the only AT i never really got into. I know its not a reward exactly but the fact that more and more people that can make kheldians are saying exactly what you say "meh" to me means there is a problem. If alot of people are saying meh, and just shelfing the toon, then what was the point? And if so how bout looking at making some changes to attact people to the AT. It has been done, the epp, the changes to tankers, and scrappers, all were to attract people to play other ATs and not just to play the flavor or the month builds. Yet Kheldians are totally flavor of the month. There progression seems very limited. And i know that plenty of people went all human or whatever, but the vast majority that i have seen and played with take nova at level 6 slot it up well and play almost totally squid for 20 levels, then they have dwarf slotted some, and go between, and theneither have to respec and lose all forms to make a human or just have nothing to look forward to in powers because they play from teh forms and nothing else helps or is needed.
I do understand the strenghts the forms offer in early game play, i soloed 20 levels in abou 14 days in nova with the slider turned up a notch. I have tanked through the respec mission with dwarf. But even on a team my human damage was doing less then a level 12 blaster that was ablet o slot those powers. And that is on a team with the link. The expense of slotting forms comes at the expense of character development out side of forms. What i was hoping for from states and maybe should have asked more directly was a idea of how in testing they built there toons, how they choose to fill in for roles, and why they built something versatile yet limited it so much that its not. But by the sound of it there off developing other ATs now so the fact is this AT will prob not be seeing alot of tweaking beyond what is already planned. And that is to bad, it stood to be a fun idea, unfortunately as the game progresses the idea suffers. And that is what i was hoping to get a reaction to, but it sounds like the intention is to play as a human and hope to get a well balanced team.(which we all know in practicle terms picking up a true well balanced team that will really benefit human form is going to be rare.) There by further limiting the playability in later levels. To bad i was having fun, just was hoping the problems that were becoming apparent as i leveled would be getting looked at.
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Kyrin,
Please post your build so that the rest of us playing a Warshade can take a look at the unique build you've come up with that is useful. After many test respecs at L28 I'm not seeing any lights at the end of the tunnel other than a train.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
[/ QUOTE ]
My build may not help you much especially at level 28. Warshades like most controllers are late bloomers. Things didn't start to turn around for me until I picked up Dark Extraction at level 32. I also did a few things that you might not want to do especially if you are not planning on using all three forms. You can find my build in the same thread as my Warshade Three Form Guide.
Those of us happy with our kheldians, despite the issues with them, are not sticking our heads in the sand. We're just more patient with the AT and willing to wait for the proposed change the devs said they would make for Kheldians around Issue 4.
Captain Booth - Necro / Storm Mastermind
Operative Cole - Soldier of Arachnos
Tango One - Fire / SS Tanker
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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Pre-Issue 3 I saw a forcefield defender herding dozens of Rikti Monkeys. Though I doubt it now after they got Psi attacks.
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Basically every Def except Kin and Emp can herd, if they choose to do so. Toggle Debuffs (Darkest Night, Snow Storm, the Rad toggels), and I suppose FF could do it with PFF up.
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*ahem*
Gentlemen, I give you... Repel.
So, any Emps out there want to share how they can herd?
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Kyrin,
Please post your build so that the rest of us playing a Warshade can take a look at the unique build you've come up with that is useful. After many test respecs at L28 I'm not seeing any lights at the end of the tunnel other than a train.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
[/ QUOTE ]
My build may not help you much especially at level 28. Warshades like most controllers are late bloomers. Things didn't start to turn around for me until I picked up Dark Extraction at level 32. I also did a few things that you might not want to do especially if you are not planning on using all three forms. You can find my build in the same thread as my Warshade Three Form Guide.
Those of us happy with our kheldians, despite the issues with them, are not sticking our heads in the sand. We're just more patient with the AT and willing to wait for the proposed change the devs said they would make for Kheldians around Issue 4.
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Except the change doesnt touch the true problems.
Fine they want to promote teaming, well fine how bout atleast making equal bonus for all AT to us. If your a Warshade damage dealers increase your damage, but a PB its tankers and defenders. THat is hardly fair. More often then not there are more blasters and scrappers on a team then tankers, and vice versa, the link should just provide and equal boost to both damage and defense for every person on the team rather then making your performance predicated on having 2 tankers so that my damage is atleast level. So instead of 10 percent or whatever per right teammate how bout 5 percent to each for each teammate.
Also the slotting is a big issue, and the lack of powers. I kinda feel that the forms should reflect how you have slotted your human. Atleast on PB almost every attack availible in forms is availible in nova and dwarf. So instead of making us slot everything a ton, now bout have the bonuses to nova and dwarf damage and accuracy based on how we slotted the human equivilent. If then i wanted a higher damage dealing toon, i would have more damage on the powers, and by changing to nova i get a bonus on that for losing everyother power i have. Likewise to dwarf in exchange for the resistance the human attacks do less damage, but you have mez resistnace etc that you dont have human. That then makes keeping forums for versatility viable while allowing you to make a human that is also viable. The forms then become a alternate that have a inherent bonus and weakness. Nova would do more damage then your human can, but have no defense, and dwarf would do less damage, but have a taunt and resistances and a self heal. still leaving space to take control powers, and so forth, but making forms as good as you concentrated on those powers in human form.
Its that kinda of thing i think can save these ATs from just ultimately being ignore as new AT come out. The shapeshifting was a great idea(though not fond of the look of a squid) but in trying to implement it, its crippling to do anything but.
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Except the change doesnt touch the true problems.
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Depends on what you think the problems are. Most of the problems are a matter of perception especially to those who are playing lower level kheldians or those who have never played them. My only problems with kheldians are
1) human form is not as viable as nova and dwarf forms at lower levels
2) the penalty in human and nova form make soloing difficult at lower levels
3 power pools cannot be used when in nova and dwarf form
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Fine they want to promote teaming, well fine how bout atleast making equal bonus for all AT to us. If your a Warshade damage dealers increase your damage, but a PB its tankers and defenders. THat is hardly fair. More often then not there are more blasters and scrappers on a team then tankers, and vice versa, the link should just provide and equal boost to both damage and defense for every person on the team rather then making your performance predicated on having 2 tankers so that my damage is atleast level. So instead of 10 percent or whatever per right teammate how bout 5 percent to each for each teammate.
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Its not a matter of fairness. When the devs proposed the two ATs, they stated that Peacebringers would be more defensive while Warshades would be more offensive. Giving them the exact same bonus begins to blur the lines between the two of them. I went with a warshade because it was more offensively oriented and the link reflects that.
Warshades are to Peacebringers what Scrappers are to Tankers or what Blasters are to Defenders.
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Also the slotting is a big issue, and the lack of powers. I kinda feel that the forms should reflect how you have slotted your human. Atleast on PB almost every attack availible in forms is availible in nova and dwarf. So instead of making us slot everything a ton, now bout have the bonuses to nova and dwarf damage and accuracy based on how we slotted the human equivilent. If then i wanted a higher damage dealing toon, i would have more damage on the powers, and by changing to nova i get a bonus on that for losing everyother power i have. Likewise to dwarf in exchange for the resistance the human attacks do less damage, but you have mez resistnace etc that you dont have human. That then makes keeping forums for versatility viable while allowing you to make a human that is also viable. The forms then become a alternate that have a inherent bonus and weakness. Nova would do more damage then your human can, but have no defense, and dwarf would do less damage, but have a taunt and resistances and a self heal. still leaving space to take control powers, and so forth, but making forms as good as you concentrated on those powers in human form.
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As it stands you do get a bonus for using dwarf and nova forms.
The nova form has a higher dps than most blasters. It is also more accurate and you can improve its accuracy without slotting the individual damage powers or picking up tactics or targeting drone. You also get built in stamina and combat flight.
The tank form gives you complete status protection and capped resistance (if slotted) without having to run multiple toggle powers. Not only is it a bonus over your human form but no tanker can run status protection and have capped resistances for running one toggle. Like nova form, you get build in endurance recovery.
Even though you get more powers, slotting is not a big issue unless you have the philosopgy that anything worth slotting must be six-slotted. It would be nice to have more slots but looking at my level 50 build, I have enough slots to go around.
In the case of peacebringers and warshades who go human form only, they only get 2 more powers than a normal AT so it is not even an issue.
Your suggestion has some merit but its highly unlikely the devs are going to implement a major change concerning how the forms work unless Kheldians are hopelessly broken. They aren't though they need a few fixes to make them less frustrating at lower levels.
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Its that kinda of thing i think can save these ATs from just ultimately being ignore as new AT come out. The shapeshifting was a great idea(though not fond of the look of a squid) but in trying to implement it, its crippling to do anything but.
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You're finding it crippling to do things while others do not. Maybe, its not the AT. It could be that kheldians don't fit your playstyle.
Captain Booth - Necro / Storm Mastermind
Operative Cole - Soldier of Arachnos
Tango One - Fire / SS Tanker
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
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I have heard of such a thing. Storm, especially.
Defenders have buffs and debuffs. Some defenders have powers that, because of their nature, work great as defense for everyone, including the defender.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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The Kheldian role is that they can do a little of everything - and, on a full team, have a combination of defense and ranged offense that's second to none.
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This was fine in theory but in reality what most of us are finding is that we don't shine in teams. Our damage even in 8 man teams with 4 damage boosters is still sub par. Since were trying to slot our shields to exceed our resist negative or our damage to make up for our "less than defender damage" .... we don't become par (if that) in either till we're in our late 30 s and begin having access to trio s of slots.
As to the versatility and power of the AT that should come out through the link what we instead see is persons who spend all their time in nova or dwarf form and slip into human only to use the clicks that enhance the forms. Are the forms the versatility you wanted us to have? Or was it our access to heals and status effects shields and damage? If we slot one form the other suffers if we focus on a non human form it has to be well slotted because they only have a finite set of powers (so they have to be good).
My Peacebringer is playable and interesting but I have gimped him because I dont slot my forms. I want access to the interesting thigs like heals and disorients... This makes me versatile but weak. Even in teams I dont measure up. In a respec tf recently I watched defenders and controllers contributing more than I do and more effectively. Before ppl say I am a poor player I'm not. I've clocked thousands of hours at this game. I have experience with every AT. I have two accounts and huge friends lists. People like having me on their teams because I do my job well.
You made our primary a blast set but gave us less damage than two AT s that have damage sets as their secondaries. Blasters survive by taking it out before it can take them out... we can't match that and it becomes especially obvious in the higher lvls when after 4 or 5 shots Im still surrounded by Crey minions and they have overcome the minor status protection offered by our controller... and ... well now my shields are down and +30% damage from all attks... Yes I employ tactics and yes i usually survive but this AT feels as slow as my first controller (Mind ... no pets 50 now ) and has to rely on teams as much.
Statesman, I know that recently alot of us have given up trying to explain what we see wrong with this AT. I was one of the masses who tried posting when it was on test. I was one of the ppl who wrote in support of the other masses when it got to live. Lately the masses have grown quiet. My friends are deleting their Khelds in frustration and what seems to be left are the voices of the few that equate this level of challenge with fun (good for them). Staesman look around there are plenty of ppl who are saying they are having good experiences with their khelds but ask how many of them feel second to none in a group. I've read of many ppl who feel they contribute well to groups but I cant recall anyone expressing a second to none feeling (admittedly I havent read every post on khelds and Im sure there will be a flood of ppl slamming me and saying they outshine everyone else on their team with their khelds this is all IMO and IMExperience).
I have 4 blasters in this game. All of them survive better than my kheldians even when grouped, when they do die they pay off the debt faster. My Kin/Psi Offender survives better and does more damage. My Dark/Dark defender does more damage and helps the team survivability more. My tanker does more damage and rarely dies. My controllers ( I have 5 ranging from 50th to 22nd) add more to team survivability. My Peacebringer has never felt second to none in any combination.
Finally, I played before there were respec tf s. And I have a perception of them being reserve items that you pull out when you messed up a build or when a power gets altered (like hasten, tk and AM were way back when). What you have created is an AT that relies on them. Straight slotted Nova till 26 ish. Respec Nova/Human or Dwarf/Human to tastes. And in your 30s its human all the way. Drop the forms (at least for PB s ) get Light Form and rock and roll. I havent seen a build that reliant on planned respec since SR. You don't follow that build you're hobbling your toon. Is that how you wanted it to work. Us having to rely on respecs because our original slotting starts failing as we lvl? It's verstility yes but is it what you were aiming for?
/rant off
Amadan
I'm somewhat in the middle. I find that I really outshine everyone on my team if it's a pick up team(I only play on pick up teams) of bad players or badly put together ATs. I love being able to fill out what roles we're missing which is pretty helpful especially in a TF when people quit and I have to pick up the slack.
However, in good teams, I'm more of a liability. The knockback on my attacks are not appriciated by the blasters that do more damage AoE and are not happy about me scattering mobs. With 2 good tankers and/or controllers, my mediocre crowd control abilities aren't needed, and my healing ability is too slight to really make me dependable as a healer. I can survive pretty well in human form though. So atleast I can follow a good party around without getting killed too many times unless I see a quantum. Which is one thing I notice when on good teams, my teammates get apathetic towards me and don't bother attacking the quantum/voids, since they stop caring if I die or not.
Now, my kheld isn't the only time I've ever felt non useful. Even my really powerful scrapper has felt useless once when on a team with lots of Nova happy blasters and pet happy controllers. My controller, who focuses more on debuffing has felt useless when teamed with a controller that had better holds.
But I think I feel useless more often with my Peace Bringer. She's 28th now, and I think maybe I'm just starting to see the light though. I don't think she's nearly as fun as my alts though(of which I have many), but I'm willing to stick it out. Hopefully the Devs will change a few things here and there to make us more powerful.
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You made our primary a blast set but gave us less damage than two AT s that have damage sets as their secondaries.
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Agreed. Even if you're getting a 30% (say) damage bonus from the link, the lower base damage means you're still worse off blasting in human form than a Defender. Even if the secondary and link bonus gives you as much defense as a Defender's primary, I still don't see how you're coming out "second to none" on the damage/defense combo.
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Perhaps they can give OTHER players awesome defense, but they sure don't have any themselves. I've never seen a Defender herding mobs before.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-Issue 3 I saw a forcefield defender herding dozens of Rikti Monkeys. Though I doubt it now after they got Psi attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen anyone heard like a rad defender with fly. Those toggles really piss the mobs off. I supsose snow storm could do the trick too.
OK - this is my take on what a Kheldian's role is...
They are a team catalyst.
They have at their disposal a whole host of powers that will help speed up a team in whatever it is they are doing. They may not necessarily fill 'gaps' in a team, but they can use different powers to adjust dynamically to what a team needs or could use more of at any one time.
If panic situations arise, a multi-form Kheldian can switch to Dwarf and instantly change the team dynamic to include more damage resistance. If the team is proceeding safely but slowly, they can switch to Nova and change the team dynamic to more outright offence. Those are the most obvious and most polarised changes a Kheldian is capable of. The human-form is more subtle...
A human-form only Kheldian has a whole host of tools that can be used straight away to help out - and it is generally the experience of playing through 50 levels of at least one AT (and hopefully plenty of experience of seeing how the other AT's and their powers work) that will help them know what powers will help in any given situation.
Just talking from my human-only Warshade experience as of level 33, here are just a few examples of what I can do to help a team:
<ul type="square"> [*]If mobs are getting a bit spread out or a little too rowdy for my team I can quickly manoeuvre myself and fire of a gravitic emanation that will both recluster the mobs (assuming I have been able to knock them back into a corner or against a wall) and leave them stunned for a few seconds, allowing the rest of the team to round on them. It is also a good opening gambit to put all the mobs on the floor prior to an alpha strike to mitigate any retaliation.
[*]I can keep a tightly packed set of minions permanently off balance (or at least a good portion of them) with my inky aspect. It will stack with other inky aspect or DA/oppressive gloom to keep pretty much all non-bosses off-balance. Stacked with grav emanation I can keep the majority of mobs stunned for the entire duration of a fight.
[*]I can stop stray mobs in their tracks with my snare - it recharges fast enough to keep at least 2 or 3 mobs from running off - particularly useful for anchors or catching anything a controller's AoE immob might have missed.
[*]With mobs under control (either from tank taunts or controller lock down) and close enough to each other, I can do a massive accuracy/damage buildup via Mire and cause extreme damage to them - quite possibly clearing them all up if there were enough mobs to fuel the mire.
[*]My pets help dish out offence as well as keeping mobs off-balance and giving them other targets to worry about.
[*]I have considerable resistance via my shields and link buff to all damage types except nictus damage and psionic (although even my psionic resistance can be increased via link buff). Once I get Eclipse I will be able to regularly, if not permanently, have 85% resistance to all except nictus and psi - even if my toggle shields drop my resistance will be very high and may have even capped without shields.
[*]My self-heal allows me to restore myself to full health almost instantaneously from proximity to just 2 or 3 defeated mobs.[/list]
Human-form only Warshades (and I suspect PeaceBringers) only begin to shine from the late 20s when they have enough tools at their disposal to offer solutions to multiple situations. Even then, they are at their most potent and versatile when in a team. Many of their powers provide awesome synergy with other AT's capabilities (mire is particularly effective when teamed with tanks for example).
The point of Kheldians is that they have no pre-defined role in a team - they have incredibly diverse abilities that should help them fit into virtually any team and adjust their playing style to suit.
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Except the change doesnt touch the true problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on what you think the problems are. Most of the problems are a matter of perception especially to those who are playing lower level kheldians or those who have never played them. My only problems with kheldians are
1) human form is not as viable as nova and dwarf forms at lower levels
2) the penalty in human and nova form make soloing difficult at lower levels
3 power pools cannot be used when in nova and dwarf form
[ QUOTE ]
Fine they want to promote teaming, well fine how bout atleast making equal bonus for all AT to us. If your a Warshade damage dealers increase your damage, but a PB its tankers and defenders. THat is hardly fair. More often then not there are more blasters and scrappers on a team then tankers, and vice versa, the link should just provide and equal boost to both damage and defense for every person on the team rather then making your performance predicated on having 2 tankers so that my damage is atleast level. So instead of 10 percent or whatever per right teammate how bout 5 percent to each for each teammate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not a matter of fairness. When the devs proposed the two ATs, they stated that Peacebringers would be more defensive while Warshades would be more offensive. Giving them the exact same bonus begins to blur the lines between the two of them. I went with a warshade because it was more offensively oriented and the link reflects that.
Warshades are to Peacebringers what Scrappers are to Tankers or what Blasters are to Defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
Also the slotting is a big issue, and the lack of powers. I kinda feel that the forms should reflect how you have slotted your human. Atleast on PB almost every attack availible in forms is availible in nova and dwarf. So instead of making us slot everything a ton, now bout have the bonuses to nova and dwarf damage and accuracy based on how we slotted the human equivilent. If then i wanted a higher damage dealing toon, i would have more damage on the powers, and by changing to nova i get a bonus on that for losing everyother power i have. Likewise to dwarf in exchange for the resistance the human attacks do less damage, but you have mez resistnace etc that you dont have human. That then makes keeping forums for versatility viable while allowing you to make a human that is also viable. The forms then become a alternate that have a inherent bonus and weakness. Nova would do more damage then your human can, but have no defense, and dwarf would do less damage, but have a taunt and resistances and a self heal. still leaving space to take control powers, and so forth, but making forms as good as you concentrated on those powers in human form.
[/ QUOTE ]
As it stands you do get a bonus for using dwarf and nova forms.
The nova form has a higher dps than most blasters. It is also more accurate and you can improve its accuracy without slotting the individual damage powers or picking up tactics or targeting drone. You also get built in stamina and combat flight.
The tank form gives you complete status protection and capped resistance (if slotted) without having to run multiple toggle powers. Not only is it a bonus over your human form but no tanker can run status protection and have capped resistances for running one toggle. Like nova form, you get build in endurance recovery.
Even though you get more powers, slotting is not a big issue unless you have the philosopgy that anything worth slotting must be six-slotted. It would be nice to have more slots but looking at my level 50 build, I have enough slots to go around.
In the case of peacebringers and warshades who go human form only, they only get 2 more powers than a normal AT so it is not even an issue.
Your suggestion has some merit but its highly unlikely the devs are going to implement a major change concerning how the forms work unless Kheldians are hopelessly broken. They aren't though they need a few fixes to make them less frustrating at lower levels.
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Its that kinda of thing i think can save these ATs from just ultimately being ignore as new AT come out. The shapeshifting was a great idea(though not fond of the look of a squid) but in trying to implement it, its crippling to do anything but.
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You're finding it crippling to do things while others do not. Maybe, its not the AT. It could be that kheldians don't fit your playstyle.
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I understand your points to the benefits of the forms, but i think that your mistaken if you beleive that a unslotted or poorly slotted nova form will out damage a well slotted blaster. In the early game you might be correct, but since you dont have any blasters listed on your sig, here is an example of what i think is probly typical blaster slotting for the 2 primary and secondary sets.
Energy/Energy Slotting I know there are some wierd looking ones in there but they all represent atleast damage as part of the attributes. But i think it makes my point, typical blasters with no defense everything goes into damage. Nova also no defense, but cant afford to make the damage its most due to slotting concerns for the character as a whole.
Now i know that it is hard to compare a level 30 to a level 50 but i think my point can be made in simply saying that nova offers a 20 percent bonus to damage. So as the game progesses, leaving off even one SO on each nova power has essentially put you below the damage of a corridsponding blaster power. And almost every blaster i have ever seen, has atleast a set of 5-6 attacks slotted 6 with 5 damages and 1 accuarcy. Some in the device set with Targeting drones have 6 damages or i have even seen some run leadership for accuracy. But essentially if you have less then 5 Damages on a nova power they are going to come in below a blaster attack of equal magnitude. Which is why i believe that really requiring slots for human power, nova, dwarf, and normal pools, is crippling the character. Fine its versatility, well to make human form usable like all AT stamina is needed, but then to play in nova its needed there also (the slotting i mean) as well as on dwarf.
Looking at peace bringers i really see to me that honestly i think they were ment to represent the hybrid of a blaster, scrapper, tanker. Where Warshades are definately more blaster controler. The reason why i suggest that the human team bonus be the same for each, more then fairness is that it prevents your dynamic from changing mid stream as players come and go, or even get a map disconnect mid game. To say some AT will boost damage, others defense sounds good on paper im sure, but in practice is bad. Especially when there is no way to fair split the bonus so that one type is not always below or above the other. Both AT inflict damage in some way, both have the same defense penelties the benefit from the team should be thesame for each. not only that I really dont like the idea that on a team heavey in damage, i can be safer then the blasters, yet be doing less to help the team. With me getting a defense bonus from them, i would have a problem that they die while i live, yet i was doing less damage, and contributing less to the team then they were.
You said youhave a level 50 build for your toon, i would like to see it actually. I have not talked to anyone that has made multiform work well in higher levels. Point in fact tonight I actually respeced out of forms completely. I took everything and put it into human form. I was surprised even soloing how much easier it is then it was in the earlier game, and that just brings a new debate that this AT is totally dependant on the respec. No other AT really requires the respec as much as kheldians do. I understand that people will say they can play them just fine, but in playing with a couple at higher levels with my 50, from my stand point the two i have that kept forms, not only could i way out damage, but no aspect of there character contributed anything to the team. I was just to polite to tell them to their faces. And i would imagine that the same is true for many players that reach higher levels that have come to live with players that have bad builds, they just have come to ignore them.
When i discuss these subject everyone instantly thinks i hate keldians, i dont i am playing mine still rather then shelfing it like so many others have, but i see real problems going undiscussed because so many gave up on them, and seemingly those still playing them almost more then wanting to genuinely look at the AT and its problems, want to convince the world there something unique to a team. Well i hate to say it i dont think they are and i think alot of people agree with me they just dont see the point in discussing it. The forums are littered with posts about end problems, trouble completing normal mission, the void hunters, slotting problems and limitations, and the same handful of people chime in every time saying "oh there not that bad you just must not play them well" Well there not that bad if you do the exact right thing to make them work, but then we get into the whole flavor of the month issue and well they were supose to be versatile, have many different options inspiring many differnt builds. And that just isnt the case and i think the devs should be opening there eyes to that.
Statesman responded they can do a "little bit of everything". ok that i do agree with. They can do basic tanking, basic blasting, have one heal, one control power. But then goes on to say that in the right team can have unseen damage, and defense. Well first if they want us to team, how bout in any team and get good benefits, secondly that just to me solidifies that the devs themselves feel that the only way they reach there true merit is to not use forms, since teaming lends them no benefit. That doesnt sound very versatile.
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Now i know that it is hard to compare a level 30 to a level 50 but i think my point can be made in simply saying that nova offers a 20 percent bonus to damage. So as the game progesses, leaving off even one SO on each nova power has essentially put you below the damage of a corridsponding blaster power. And almost every blaster i have ever seen, has atleast a set of 5-6 attacks slotted 6 with 5 damages and 1 accuarcy. Some in the device set with Targeting drones have 6 damages or i have even seen some run leadership for accuracy. But essentially if you have less then 5 Damages on a nova power they are going to come in below a blaster attack of equal magnitude. Which is why i believe that really requiring slots for human power, nova, dwarf, and normal pools, is crippling the character. Fine its versatility, well to make human form usable like all AT stamina is needed, but then to play in nova its needed there also (the slotting i mean) as well as on dwarf.
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I agree with a lot of what you said, but this bit is not quite right.
Nova "base" damage is 120% of blaster "base" damage. That isn't a 20% bonus, that is 20% more base, so all Enhs enhance the whole 120% not just the 100%.
Novas get an inherant +45% boost to their base damage, which equates to just over one SO for free.
Novas can slot the form for +To Hit, so potentially could have 6 damage SOs in each Nova power, only /dev blasters can also do this. Now in practice the end problems of Warshades are so bad you really need to slot one End Red in each Nova power. I can't vouch for other Warshades, but I six slotted my two AOEs as soon as I could.
So let us assume that a Nova has 6 slots in one of its powers, of which 5 are damage. The total damage compared to a blaster is:
120% * ( 100% + 45% + ( 5 * 33%) ) = 372% of blaster base damage
For a blaster that has 6 slots in a power, of which 5 are damage that is:
100% * (100% + (5 * 33%) ) = 265% of blaster base damage.
Now also factor in that a Khelidan can reach a damage cap of 450% of its base power (which equates to 540%) of a blasters base damage, where as a blaster caps at 350% of its base damage.
Now on top of this a warshade may typically have two pets out, which have base damage of 80% of a blaster, maybe with 3 damage enhs in, giving them damage of about 150% of a base blaster each! Tho of course, the pets do no have haste, so maybe you are getting 150% of a blasters base damage between two pets.
What I am trying to say is that Novas can be pretty mean blasting machines. Now for a warshade that uses eclipse before hand a nova can blast more than a blaster and have 85% damage resistance.
There is a big "however", where novas fall down is against mezzing mobs and psi damage mobs, as they have 0 status protection and 0 defence.
In summary, against "normal" mobs nova warshades can be amazingly powerfull, against mezzing mobs and psi damage mobs novas can still kick out the damage but are highly likely to drop out due to death/holds. This is a real dilema, as at 40+ as we all know the number of mezzing mobs is high. If I want to keep blasting these types of mobs I must now consider using my human form with power pools for defence, and this is where it all falls down. Human form warshades are very sub par blasters, and offer no buffs/debuffs to help the team in the way that defenders do.
I really don't want to lose the amazing blasting power of the nova form, so maybe what I have to do is take on mezzing mobs in dwarf form only. Hmmmm, only time will tell if the warshade can be as good post 40 as it is 30-40....
These are my naked thoughts on some of the pros and cons of the warshade, I hope they add something to the debate, which I agree is something we need to have to get it working as intended!
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You'reery quick to point out that we do nothing BETTER than other ATs.
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Actually, we travel better than all other ATs. :-)
Just as a quick note: my fire/energy blaster has more than a couple of blasts slotted for damage only since she has aim and buildup.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
Wow remind me not to team with Wither up there. Just because a peacebringer on his team died once, they must suck and not fill a team role properly. So exactly what is it that makes a Peacebringer not qualify as a "proper" AT? I played my blaster to 50, My peacebringer can't even use SO's yet and I think my damage is probably better than my blaster was. Are you one of those people who thinks a controller should just control, defender should only defend, etc.? So if a controller on your team is the only person with healing powers, you will reprimand them if they use it? Their "role" is not healing, that's a defenders role. Yes adaptability is a good role for a team. And most teams are happy with what they see my peacebringer do. After 50 levels as a blaster, I'm very happy to get self heals and shields when I need them.
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.The Khelds I suppose are supposed to be as others have called the swiss army knife AT.
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Very good term for the Kheld AT. True.
So for the record...I dont want to seem like a Kheld basher, but like you said, they need some help.