Really, I don't mind that y'all made the bosses harder. In a way the challenge is fun because new tactics needed to be evolved, but in a way it's kind of tedious spending yet another 5 minutes taking down the 17th Paragon Protector in one door mission. 
It evens out, more or less.
What I really mind is that it seems like a fair number of Bosses can lay out anyone with squishy-level HP in one hit. That's not really heroic. I don't mind being two-shotted, because if I react fast enough I can do something about it. One shot is 
, especially when combined with their now very, very good accuracy.
One additional thing I would like to point out is that I'm not sure this change will have the intended effect for group gameplay. I'm actually more leery now about bringing along teammates in my door missions than I was previously. On Unyielding, if I solo a mission, it's comfortably filled with lts and minions. If I add one person, it's likely similar. When I hit 3 people, unnamed bosses appear. So I think very hard before I add that third person now.
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A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.
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States, it has been the experience of a great many players (mentioned on other threads) that *multiple* unnamed bosses show up on missions that they entered alone.
You say above that the spawn override takes place when a mission calls for *a* boss - does this mean that ordinarily, missions entered by a single player should not spawn more than one boss?
One of the big things that I have noted as a "squishy" is that bosses aren't "slightly" dangerous, they just tend to overwhelm in a very short order.
I was in a group that was doing the Eden trial. Started it with eight people, but lost our Exemplar about halfway across the one bridge.
Fire Tanker, two scrappers, blaster, two defenders and one controller (lost our ice blaster.)
This team basically rocked and was going great (only an occasional death) up until we got to the Moss Wall (2nd wall). When you attacks this wall (dropping it from 100% HP, I guess) it spawns a whole bunch of bosses and death caps.
With the new Boss/AV/Monster HP change, the wall could only be brought down to about 1/2 before we got wiped out by the bosses that would hit my defender twice. These bosses were only +1 on most of the group (and not even +1 for some of them.)
The door spawn actually send *more* bosses than it does players, plus a grundle of mezzing lieutenants (which usually got me.)
I'm pretty sure that this was more managable with the old bosses (probably a bit tough, but doable.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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You say above that the spawn override takes place when a mission calls for *a* boss - does this mean that ordinarily, missions entered by a single player should not spawn more than one boss?
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Typically, yes.
But...there are a few missions that have multiple bosses in a single spawn and a few more that have multiple bosses spread throughout the map. The vast majority of boss missions have a single boss appear (no matter what the team size) in one of the end rooms.
A small suggestion:
if bosses, which currently con as a color as if they were two levels higher then an equivalent level minion, are supposed to be abotu one level tougher then they were previously, could you maybe have their color con be three levels higher then an equivalent level minion? In other words, if you encounter a boss that is the same level as you, instead of having him con orange, have him con red. I think this would better reflect the real difficulty level of the new bosses so that new players (and old) could more accurately judge the relative difficulty they will be facing. A lot of players don't stop to check out what level the mobs are, but they (players) do notice the colors that they (the mobs) con.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
There needs to be a way for non-combat ATs to solo the majority of their missions, period.
Grouping should be an option, not a necessity.
I appreciate the logic behind the boss changes, and I like the fact that they're being looked at, but there needs to be some alternative for soloers looking to do their own missions. Either a way to get around the bosses (as in blinkie missions), or an alternative mission track for those ATs who simply can't kill a boss on their own.
/edit
and while I'm here-
my regen scrapper still tears through bosses like wet toilet paper.
Should I expect a "balance change" to reflect the recent statements that no single character should be able to lay the smackdown on a boss minus luck and a bunch of inspirations?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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But...there are a few missions that have multiple bosses in a single spawn and a few more that have multiple bosses spread throughout the map.
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Ah, like the end of story arcs? Gotcha, I think.
Thanks for the response. 
statesman...
i love most of I3 except the boss changes.
on the test server, when you had the minions turned up, that was kinda nice. it made the missions a little harder, but not impossible. i had to be careful and mind those 3 white con minions. but now, i have to be weary of a white con boss. this boss isnt 1.5 of me, not when i can do only 100 pts of damage, then he drops me with 500+. heck the LTs can be more powerful than the 3/4 you quote but tolerable.
please review the damage and hitpoints that you adjusted for the boss.
as to having fun with grouping, its fun, but missions should be soloable without having to have a group. even AVs, should be one h*ll of a fight but a hero should be able to toe to toe with an AV(the current boss is what an AV should be).
if i choose to not group, thats my choice, im not anti-social, just being an angsty hero. but it shouldnt be necessary to do missions.
ps whens the snow hitting PC...
Freedom
Tannus Level 50 Defender *Level 50 on 08/21/05* - Freedom
Sgt. Robertson Level 50 Master Mind - Freedom
Angus Piper Level 45 Scrapper -Liberty
Cindy Jones Level 26 Arachnos Widow - Liberty
Glad to hear you're looking into it. But...
You seem to understand that minions/Lts become easy, trivial, and boring at high levels. A boss buff doesn't change that at all. As of Issue 3, most of our fights are easy, trivial, and boring and 5% (in which a Boss appears) are anywhere from hard to impossible.
I understand fully that you want to make the game challenging to encourage grouping, but singling out *just* Bosses is a bad idea.
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You say above that the spawn override takes place when a mission calls for *a* boss - does this mean that ordinarily, missions entered by a single player should not spawn more than one boss?
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Typically, yes.
But...there are a few missions that have multiple bosses in a single spawn and a few more that have multiple bosses spread throughout the map. The vast majority of boss missions have a single boss appear (no matter what the team size) in one of the end rooms.
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From about level 37 on up, there is usually a boss every *other* mission now. That basically means that missions are no longer solo.
Come level 40 and Tina Mcintyre (SP?) with missions that have AVs with no warning, they are entirely not solable.
This is not good for people that are trying to get some story arcs done, but usually play with higher level people.
Still here, even after all this time!
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A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.
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Then apparently a *large* number of missions have spawn overrides, with no mention of bosses in the encounter text. That combined with the increased hp/heal rate/dmg of bosses is making a lot of my friends shelve certain alts.
Statesman, I've been riding all of you guys since before issue 3 went live about two things. 1) Taking ranged defense away from invul tankers, and 2) upping boss damage and HP by 50%. Making them stronger then heroes.
1) Your already getting ready to deal with on the test server. So I'll totally skip that.
2) Now what you listed above is new to me. At least your explanations are new to me. And they make sense. I agree bosses are a bit too tough. Maybe lowering the damage a bit, but leave the hitpoints, would be a good solution.
I apologise for some of my sharp comments on the boards earlier. I still dont like how issue 3 is going. I still think that putting more mobs against us on missions instead of making things tougher is the way to go. But it's good to know that your looking into bosses and that the solution that you put out with I3 wasnt your final answer to the problem.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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I might still be anti-social in real life, but in MMPs Im a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come
)
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I get about wanting to "encourage" grouping... and I'm all for it.. I'm about 70/30 on my grouping/soloing. But couldn't you have done that with more group oriented stuff? More (and shorter) Task Forces, Trials, and such? Maybe even group contact missions and leave the generic bosses alone? Put Elite bosses in missions with more than 4 people.. that kind of thing?
And why not a "weakness" instead of an across the board bump. Like what you did with Phantom Army. More hit points, more accuracy, but the same or less damage.
Just some thoughts..
Thanks for the explanation, Statesman. One thing, though:
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A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.
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I don't think that's how it's currently working. My 38th level defender, who I mostly use to solo, recently got a Council mission in which there were several bosses. And there was no warning in the mission text that it would be difficult, or that I should bring others with me.
However, my defender rocks, and I was able to solo all those bosses without too much of a problem.
Similarly, since I3 I have soloed bosses with a 31st level tank and a 25th level controller (the controller cheats -- he Deceives lts and sends them to beat their bosses up).
So one way or another, I don't think it's working as you have planned. Either you need to give up on the 'non-soloable bosses' idea, or you need to make them even tougher, because your players are too smart.
As for the 'one-shot' problem -- have bosses always lead with their debuff, hold, or weakest damage attacks. Let them save their most powerful attack for the second or third in their queue. Yes, this may mean that controllers will have more chance to defang a boss before they get dangerous, but it'll decrease the one-shot problem. Just a suggestion.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I liked City of Heroes for one reason mainly. I could play solo. I am a Dad and when things come up with the kids and the wife I MUST leave the computer you just can't REASONABLY stress reasonably do that in a group. Its not fair to the group. You say MMP shines with a group that may be true. But yours was different it finally was a place solo players could fight solo and just chat with other people. You did not have to fight as a group. But as time goes by each change seems to move away from that. I just feel you are working against me now. As a dad I may need to look elsewhere for an online game.
Terry Bailey Sr.
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They have no opportunity to prepare for the boss because they didnt see him.
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Just give Bosses the same Aura Effects that us players get at level 30 and reduce their Awareness range.
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why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them. Ive made many good virtual friends through other MMPs that I simply would not have done if I could solo everything all the time. I admit it: Im anti-social. Its hard to get me to group up with strangers. But after I do it, I always wonder why dont I do this more often
I might still be anti-social in real life, but in MMPs Im a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come
)
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I think it's going in my Sig for now because you just described me to a 'T'
I am happy to see the one-shot issue is being looked into. I'm all for tougher bosses, but the ammount of strategy you can set up for having a one/two shot mistake range is just to low, especially for super heroes. I also feel it limits effective duo combinations.
Sure, I'll side with making bosses something to fear, something you have to pay attention to when you fight (although, I dislike the entire boss/monster/AV system in this game... But I'm not going to get into that. Something different all togeather), but I do NOT support random, common one-hit-kills. Lets not make this into a super-hero themed counter-strike, ne?
Statesman,
Thanks for the reply.
I don't feel the new bosses are equal to a +1 boss now. I have characters who used to be able to take on a +2 boss as easily or more easily than a +0 boss now, maybe more, and my risk of one-shotting wasnt as high on the old +2.
I don't know, it just feels like the change was more severe than that.
Also, I don't have access to data mining, but I will be interested to see how this impacts solo behavior and how frequently people do missions. I would almost expect it to polarize player types. People really into soloing will be stubborn and be finding themselves in more debt or going to the streets, and people who like teams will be doing that more.
Can't you please consider a difficulty slider for "classic" mode for normal bosses? Even if it only works if one player is in the mission (reverting to hard-boiled otherwise)?
Finally, I don't like someone else making me team up ... or stacking the odds against me so I'm more likely to team up. Let me assure you, I'm not more likely to have fun when I do feel obligated to team up. It's like someone making you watch a movie you've never seen before at a time you didn't want to watch a movie. Bad choice.
I feel like I did when my mother made me go to the prom back in '85. Can't wait to get home.
Still, thanks for answering the question. At least now we know that you want people to do missions and you want grouping. You've given people who slept walk through bosses a reason want to do missions (slider) and a reason for other players to have to do missions (bosses).
At least now I know and I can design my characters accordingly. I will be designing for street fighting and I will ignore packs with bosses when possible, even on my "group" ATs.
This is not a complaint. I am honestly glad you answered the question so I can maximize my fun within the constraints of the system. I appreciate that you stepped up to the plate and answered the question.
Also, since it goes too often without being said, great game, and thanks for the hard work!
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Boss Changes
In our game, mob (i.e. villain) spawns depend upon the size of a team. The following is a rough approximation of how spawns are calculated:
A minion is worth 1/3 of a hero
A Lt. is worth ¾ of a hero
A Boss is worth 1.5 heroes
Admittedly, these are approximate. A single hero might spawn anywhere from 2 to 4 minions. Or a Lt. by himself. Or a Lt. and a minion.
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Sorry to say this but your whole plan of hero vs mob worth is flawed.
If thats so that would mean a Tanker is no better to kill and survive than a Contoller or Defender which is totally ridiculous. No wonder the changes are making the game worse if your sticking to that idea. A tanker in a group is normally called upon to tank 20+ mobs and is suppose to tank them all. If a Tank is eqaul to 3 then no one will be able to ever do a TF again.
The comparisson MUST be based on class like
Def/Cont = 3 mobs
Blaster = 5 mobs
Scrapper = 8 mobs
Tanker = 10 mobs
or something along that lines. Also I hope your not considering the current version as being in line with your goal because regen scrappers are just tearing through everything now. I tried to do an AV with myself (invuln/Fire Tanker) lvl 42, a lvl 41 Fire Controller, lvl 41 Electric Blaster, lvl 42 Scrapper.
After 10 minutes of pounding on the AV she was at 90% health. That is not fun at all. We needed a party of 8 with 4 people lvl 47+ and even then took us 10 mins. The AV's are so hard now that the people who's level theyb are intended for can't do them and the xp is so low its not worth it for higher people to help, not that you should need lvl 50's to take out a lvl 42 AV.
The boss's arn't quite as bad but some are FAR too powerful as in impossible for 3 to take down. While some are easy. The other day it was clear that 1 Carnie Boss = 3 Heroes.
Each Boss's difficulty must be adjusted individually rather than doing them all in a single brush stoke as some were harder than others BEFORE you did this. Also in big groups the game still add's more Boss's and they are so over powered they are slaughtering whole parties. If you want such over powered Boss you need to cut down the number of them for big groups and in TF's.
Statesman, thanks for explaining the thinking behind the boss changes. It makes a lot of sense, and IMO the changes seem to be working well. I don't mind having to team up for some missions, although I'd like to see more options for getting help. Pilcrow had a great idea to have contacts essentially act as "Help Wanted" posters if you're having trouble finishing a mission solo . . .
I have to second the concerns about squishies getting one-shotted by bosses. It doesn't feel very heroic, and is very frustrating, to get killed w/o having a chance to do anything.
Thank you for the explanation. Detailed posts like these go a long way towards easing your playerbase; players handle "changes done for X reason I disagree with" better than they handle "changes done for seemingly arbitrary or ill-defined reasons." And I'm glad you're looking into the one-shot deaths; for a few nights there, I felt like I was playing Space Invaders , because I kept getting blown up after one hit.
As to this portion of your post:
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As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them.
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So your stated goal for the boss inclusion in missions is to "encourage teaming." I wish you would reconsider other means to encourage teaming instead. There are other methods that don't penalize soloing. Increasing XP, increasing enhancement drops, and adding in easily accessible team content would all encourage teaming, but they wouldn't prevent players from doing their own story arcs and badge missions.
Having a game that's viable for soloers has to mean more than "street sweep" and "scrounge for missions without bosses or AVs in them."*
*: And I'm aware many people can still solo, even against bosses. I can too... my regen scrapper is almost as strong as he was pre-nerf (which makes me think nerf #2 is coming soon). With my controller, it's possible, but it's just now tedium with very little reward. My illusion controller beat on a Sky Raider robot boss for nearly 10 minutes before killing it the other night. The remainder of the mission didn't take me that long.
Since issue 3 also added the mission difficulty slider, would it be possible to add a lower level than 'Hard Boiled' that would spawn the mission the same as 'Hard Boiled' but with the bosses decremented one level? This would have the effect of giving players the choice to have missions similar in difficulty as pre-issue 3.
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I don't feel the new bosses are equal to a +1 boss now. I have characters who used to be able to take on a +2 boss as easily or more easily than a +0 boss now, maybe more, and my risk of one-shotting wasnt as high on the old +2.
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They are just +1.
Boss Changes
In our game, mob (i.e. villain) spawns depend upon the size of a team. The following is a rough approximation of how spawns are calculated:
A minion is worth 1/3 of a hero
A Lt. is worth ¾ of a hero
A Boss is worth 1.5 heroes
Admittedly, these are approximate. A single hero might spawn anywhere from 2 to 4 minions. Or a Lt. by himself. Or a Lt. and a minion.
The level of minions fluctuates in missions anywhere from +1 to -1 of the mission holder. In zones, the level of spawns depends upon the level of the team leader and the zone level restrictions. In other words, theres maximum and minimum levels set to the mobs in each zone.
This system is how spawns work in mission maps AND zones. Yep spawns in zones check to see what size a nearby group is. When your team is running through an area, youre actually creating spawns as you go.
In levels 1 to 22ish, this system works perfectly. Things are about as hard as we wanted them to be. But as soon as players can purchase single origin Enhancements, they rapidly make the above calculations almost irrelevant. A player enters a mission or a zone and can rapidly breeze through +1 to -1 leveled spawns using the calculations above.
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY. My concern at the mid and higher levels is that a solo Archetype isnt all that powerful. Their inherent weaknesses and strengths really come into play post level 25.
Teams, on the other hand, become more and more efficient at the mid and higher levels. With a large selection of powers, and well defined Archetype roles, the team is great than the sum of its individual parts. Because Bosses spawn for teams, it means that Bosses were easier than 1.5 heroes. They became essentially lts.
I didnt want to impact solo play by increasing mobs across the board. Instead, I focused on Bosses. We increased the damage, hit points and XP of Bosses to be exactly one level higher. In other words, a level 30 Boss, now more closely resembles a level 31 Boss.
Naturally, some might ask, why not change spawn sizes or why not change the level spawns. Good questions. Suffice to say, those solutions involve touching systems that have enormous impact in the game. It would be very, very difficult to do either. Increasing Boss difficulty, on the other hand, is a much safer solution in terms of the game. We can analyze and track the results, while not destroying major systems. Many times, game development is all about looking at the best solution considering not just issue itself but also the overall game itself.
But, I digress (apologies to Peter David). My main issue right now is the one shot defeats. Blasters, Controllers or Defenders who round a corner a little too quickly can find themselves facing instant debt. They have no opportunity to prepare for the boss because they didnt see him. I do like that Bosses now stay around longer in fights, but I dont like how deadly they can be so we are actively analyzing this situation.
As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them. Ive made many good virtual friends through other MMPs that I simply would not have done if I could solo everything all the time. I admit it: Im anti-social. Its hard to get me to group up with strangers. But after I do it, I always wonder why dont I do this more often I might still be anti-social in real life, but in MMPs Im a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come )