First, thanks for having this discussion. Others have pointed out the negative effects of these changes to grouping itself. I'm just going to talk about soloing bosses.
City of Heroes is my first MMO, and the primary reason I haven't gotten into any before now is that I understand you had to find people to group with in order to enjoy the meat of the game.
I'd heard that City of Heroes was different, that you could enjoy the meat without grouping. I got into the preorder, enjoyed myself extremely because I could indeed enjoy the meat of the missions by either going solo or by teaming (my choice). And so I paid in advance for a year.
If this post had been made on the beta boards, I wouldn't have bought the release copy.
I'm a coleader of an active SuperGroup, I've taken two characters to 50 by some soloing and some teaming (I've done every task force/trial in the game except for those in the shadow shard, I've fought every AV outside of the shadow shard, all with teams). I've got good friends in the game, I do pickup teams. But, most of the time I do solo.
And many of my friends in the game are the same way. We solo a lot, and we team a lot.
There already is content in the game that encourages team play. There are epic adventures that require teams to accomplish (trials and task forces). There are extraordinarily difficult villains that require more than one hero to take down (AVs, monsters, masters of Illusion). And teaming is fun.
And, there's social interaction other than grouping. Discussions that start in broadcast (and I suspect that may be tweaked with global chat channels). Talking on the supergroup channel (as we describe the cool new stuff we're seeing in our missions under issue 3).
What was there in your data that said we had to be pushed into grouping more? That's what you're doing, you're taking people who are having fun in your game doing missions solo, and saying "You'll have to play THIS way from now on". What is in your data to justify annoying many of your players this way?
I group, and I solo. I solo because of my odd hours. I solo because I love the stories in the story arcs, and if I'm in a group it's unfair to say "No, we'll do just my missions so we can follow the arc all the way through". My enjoyment of City of Heroes will be decimated if I am no longer able to solo, just as it would be decimated if I was no longer able to group.
I started a new character for Issue 3, just like I started a new character for Issue 2. I've done a scrapper and a blaster, was considering a controller for my next character. But from what I'm hearing, soloing as a controller went from difficult to impossible. So, I started a scrapper (MA/Regen). Here's what worries me. As people complain about being unable to solo, others are saying "There's no problem soloing these new bosses". If your data shows that scrappers are consistently able to solo these new buffed bosses, will scrappers be debuffed or bosses buffed again to make sure that nobody can solo these?
The game that has been so popular, Statesman, has been one where people can solo missions, even missions with bosses, or can group to make it easier and more fun. There's even special content only available to groups only. You can feel like a hero accomplishing great things solo or grouped.
The game you have in your vision will limit soloing to street sweeping and some cookiecutter missions here and there that are done and then forgotten. The great stories in your game, the Ubelman Arc, the Wheel of Destruction, the Mind of the Clockwork King, all of these are locked away from someone who wants to solo.
If so many people liked the game you had created, why change it when so many people are expressing displeasure with it.
There's a lot of cool stuff in Issue 3. I'm willing to compromise and run a scrapper to enjoy it. (Dr. Vahz's lab is great, Tyrant's throneroom is cool, the new ship tileset is fun, Striga Isle is a work of art.) But, if the ability to solo with a scrapper is a temporary abberation that will be "fixed" let me know now, please.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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In levels 1 to 22ish, this system works perfectly. Things are about as hard as we wanted them to be. But as soon as players can purchase single origin Enhancements, they rapidly make the above calculations almost irrelevant. A player enters a mission or a zone and can rapidly breeze through +1 to -1 leveled spawns using the calculations above.
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY. My concern at the mid and higher levels is that a solo Archetype isnt all that powerful. Their inherent weaknesses and strengths really come into play post level 25.
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Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You first say that a solo player can breeze through a mission, and then you say that a solo player is not all that powerful. A well-built solo player has no problem with +2s and +3s for the most part, and any solo player that could effectively solo bosses before is not going to have any trouble doing so now, because this game is about enemy neutralization rather than fighting them straight up. Things only go bad for good players when neutralization becomes impossible.
This holds true for pretty much any non-Blaster archetype, as follows:
<ul type="square">[*]Controller - Before pets it can be fairly slow going, but afterwards it's no issue for pretty much any controller to solo enemies. (This includes Mind Control; the experience drain from confuse is greatly overrated.)[*]Defender - A defender specifically built for soloing will take a bit longer than a blaster, but be extremely difficult to kill while doing it, with less downtime. (Rad, storm, dark, and kinetics primaries mainly.)[*]Scrapper - An extremely well built /DA, or just simply a decently built Inv/Regen/SR don't have any trouble at all. Heck, my SR was taking Terra Volta Raider packs by herself with very little downtime during the 20s, and with the exception of the gaping AoE defense hole, breezed through the 30s. And we won't talk about post-Elude, where I can take on maximum sized mission spawns of +4s, including bosses, just fine if I pay attention to what I'm doing.[*]Tanker - A decently built tanker that sacrifices some defense for offense can start really pounding the snot out of things in the 30s, especially once they get to their 35 and 38 slugger hits.[/list]
Note that all of these are due to support skills, including defenses, debuffs, knockdowns, and the all-important Stamina. That is a large part of the problem with this: The game is too binary right now. You have the support abilities to nullify the enemies, or you don't. That's pretty much it. A /dev or /ice blaster can almost nullify a heck of a lot of enemies. A /fire can't. (Actually, what the crap is /fire good for anyway?)
So, exactly how do their weaknesses and strengths come into play in the late game? As far as I can tell, my Scrapper can ignore the attacks of 99% of the enemies she faces, including bosses, Monsters, Archvillains, and so forth. It takes either an acc buff, def debuff, or something to hit for more than my maximum hit points for me to give notice. Seeing as how enemy buffs/debuffs are comparitively rare, and only a few Archvillains can even hit that hard, this leaves precious few enemies to pose an even remote threat. Exactly what is my weakness here?
My controller gets the amazingly stupidly overpowered EM Pulse, and with the standard Gravity holds can keep the enemies locked down indefinitely while the sings crush them into paste, while the Rad secondary neutralizes what enemies are not held. I don't consume much endurance doing this, I just sit there and toss stuff out occasionally to pretend I'm doing something. And he doesn't even eat the alpha strikes of most groups, since he pulls the Singularities into the group with SS stealth. Where is my weakness? Enemy Dispersion Bubble, which is nonexistent outside of Possessed Scientists post-35, and Fungoids, which are also almost nonexistent post-35. Beyond that, it takes a ridiculous quantity to even bother me.
The simple fact is that enemy difficulty is still there, it is just that some characters are much, much better at nullifying what the enemies do than others are. If you look at the predominant builds in the game, you'll see that a large majority of the successful soloers nullify a large portion of what the enemies do to a great extent. It's not really fighting the enemies when they can't do anything to you. Look at the laundry list of the most popular builds for higher levels right now: Fire and Illusion controllers. Regen, Inv scrappers.(and as soon as people figure it out, SR too) Fire tankers. /Dev blasters. Etc. All of these can nullify the majority of what the enemy is capable of doing, eliminating a large portion of the risk involved.
It isn't SOs that do it, it's the fact that enemies are outright nullified by the available powers. Increasing boss power doesn't make it any harder except for those characters that have not chosen to neutralize them, and this will further sideline builds that cannot. Don't get me wrong, I like the tougher bosses. I really do. But conceiving that it's going to make a huge difference for anything but the players of the game with lesser builds is a joke. The real solution here is to make the enemies buff/debuff more than they currently do, to offset the neutralization that they receive. Don't just make it more difficult for the average players, make it difficult for the good ones too. (The Council Sonic guns are a step in the right direction IMO.)
Were I in your shoes, I would start looking at the situations that cause this and what can be done to rectify them, rather than attempting to modify the numbers involved.
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I think the genre (and the great game) attracts many of us who want some online gaming experiences, but need it to be flexible enough that we can solo at will (instead of standing around trying to form a team for 10 minutes).
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Eighth - you've hit the nail on the head! Positron and I were just talking about this; part of the beauty of the game is that you don't need to wait in order to get to fun. I don't want to lose that in the rush to encourage grouping. Like I've said, I'm going to review the missions this week and see how many have bosses at the different level ranges.
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This is the most encouraging thing I've seen posted in quite a while!
The most frustrating aspect of other MMO's for me was the fact that I often only have an hour or so to play, and most of the time I would find myself spending the bulk of that time standing around shouting "Level blah blah blah blah LFG".
That's not fun.
I got City of Heroes. Installed it. Created a character... and just played. It was fantastic.
If I have time, I can join a Team, maybe even do a Task Force. If not, I can go to my Contact, grab a mission, and do it, all by myself, just like a real honest-to-goodness Super Hero. I love it.
With the introduction of the simultaneous 'clickies' and now the Boss changes (especially their damage output), it has started to feel like this might be becoming less and less true.
That's why I am so glad to hear you say that you don't want to lose the 'instant fun' aspect in the rush to encourage grouping.
Thank you!
Silas Dark - Magic Scrapper
Blurg - Science Tanker
Quantium X - Mutation Controller
Grey 17 - Natural Defender
Santabot - Technology Blaster
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
well i do enjoy the new boss changes that have occured with update 3. I did a respec trial last night with a group of people and there were 6 freak bosses per mob group that we ran into. it happened to provide for a very fun fight. We were worried going into the trial abuot the new boss HP, but with teamwork, it went just fine. I was a lvl 34 Sk'd up to 37(rad/rad defender), we had a lvl 38 tanker(invul/energy), a lvl 36 tanker(invul/SS), a lvl 36 controller(illusion/storm), a lvl 37 scrapper(claws/invul), and a lvl 36 blaster(fire/fire). and yes we were all in need of respec's definatly.
we fought freaks that were mostly purple with a few red's intermingled.(for me atleast) the rest of the group that was 36's saw all purple. the only problem we ran into was when we accidently aggro'd 3+ mobs and had about 12-15 tanks swarm us and their AoE knocked out the two healers, and then a few seconds later the scrapper and blaster. and this wasn't until we were in the terra volta mission. it all happened very quickly becuase we agrred 3+ mobs; it was our own fault, not the new uber bosses. hell we all liked the difficulty the bosses gave us. it certainly made it feel like epic battles. they weren't too hard but they weren't a cake walk either. i'm just writing this story about my experience to show how those in groups that i've been in, feel about the new boss changes. They work great in a team format.
they don't kick in until post lvl 25 which is great. it allows characters the time to get their powers they want and the powers slotted correctly. also as a Rad/Rad defender i solo a lot since i do play odd hours and i like doing story arcs, something which i don't get to do a lot of when i join a group beacuse i'm helping others with missions. (which i do a lot anyways) When i've solo'd, i have yet to run into the multiple bosses in a single mission, or a boss in a mission where there shouldn't have been. For me, a boss and his few cronies around him prove to be a great fight as the end of a story arc, hectic, life threatening, and usually an expenditure of some of my inspirations. but solo'ing, a boss and his cronies in every room can be time consuming and difficult. if that is a bug, needs to be fixed. I personally like seeing bosses intermingled in missions at times when i solo, the xp is great, but i can see where it is a problem for somepeople.
a boss and his coronies in a team of any number, shouldn't be a problem. I have yet to run into a team where it couldn't be handled. There may be a few death everyso often beacuse of unlucky streaks of hits, but tis the life. If someone is expecting to never die in this game, that's rather unrealistic. don't get pissed when you die, change tactics, call a few friend, or heaven forbid, get into a pick-up team. I've been in bad pick-up teams and i've been in great pick-up teams. The team i did the respec with the other night was pick-up, and everyone worked great together. I've had other groups in my SG mates that were more loose and sloppy.
anyways, i really have enjoyed the new boss changes. I know others that have as well. heck i'm surprised that people don't farm the new respec, everyone in my team got between 2(lvl 38 i believe)-4.5(myself) bubbles of xp out of it, and it took maybe an hour and a half to two hours to complete. that's preety damn good xp.
If there are multiple bosses spawning in missions for a solo player, (besides the named duo's at the end of some arc's) then i can see that as a problem. otherwise i strongly suggest keeping these boss changes. i find them highly enjoyable in both a teaming and solo format.
Yowch. If you think a boss should be worth 2.5 heroes, you'd HATE to see what I did whenever I entered the Crash Site.
Those poor groups of all Rikti Lieuts and Bosses never saw me coming. v_v
But then, I should take States' opening post in this topic as a complement. By his standards, I'm... (rough estimate) 9 and 1/3 heroes all in one nice little nifty package!
One City. Two games.
My concern is that tankers and scrappers are in many ways playing a whole different ball-game than defenders, blasters and controllers.
3 classes find the new boss change makes them far too lethal; instantly fatal.
For the other 2, post 24 or so soloing missions becomes a joke. I have 4 different scrappers and tankers levels 25-26 who solo red bosses, and come out of it with attitudes ranging from: "That was a fun challenge" to "That was pathetic".
In short, I think you should use the last two options on the difficulty slider to make missions DIFFICULT. If necessary, and I know you won't like it put this way, but if necessary, set the highest difficulty TOO HARD for non-melee ATs to solo. Because as it stands, those of us who DO solo with competently designed scrappers and tankers can still breeze through. I would love to fight multiple simultaneous even-level bosses, and will gladly take out a +1 or +2 boss if the group only has 2 or 3 minions/lts. Solo. In every mission. SOMETHING to make it feel more like heroic combat and less like beating up squeegee-kids.
The most fun missions I've had in a while were Freaklympics missions... the outdoor one with 4 bosses, and the awards ceremony with Mistah Static. All those bosses were red to me, and the vast majority of the stuff in the missions were +2 level minions. That was not bad... but ever since it went live, I've found that the difficulty slider still gives me a lot of junk missions that are nearly all +1 level from start to finish, often with sub-par spawn size. That just makes me want to ignore them all, grab the glowies, and hope the next mission rolls up as a "real" one.
The slider is the perfect mechanism to implement ACTAULY DIFFICULT content, because it is totally optional, so any whiners can just stick to the lower gradations on the slider. So please, make the top 1 or two levels generate CONSISTENT +2/+3 level spawns, preferably with MORE bosses.
My characters relevant to this discussion include:
Dustblood 25 Claw/Regen, Justice
Steam Golem 26 Fire/Axe, Justice
Rugal 25 MA/Invuln, Protector
Elemental Armor 26 Ice/Ice, Protector
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Third TF: We had trouble getting enough people for this, so we recruited one guy just to get us over the limit (he dropped immediately). We lost an exemplar on the first mission (down to five), and another to connection problems about halfway through (down to four). All squishies; I was the only one who'd done the TF before. We finished the whole task force in NINETY MINUTES, mainly because the only bosses we encountered were end-of-mission bosses.
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I was in this task force with you with my controller (Norus Ra), and it was amazing. That was by far the quickest TF I've ever done. It was a total bloodbath.
You had the holy grail in your hand: a game that both soloists and teams could enjoy. It lacked only one thing: a difficulty slider that would have told the computer to spawn this mission as if there was a party of X+1 characters instead of X (or X+2, etc.). So why change the game to alienate a fair number of your players when you could do it so that everybody has fun and is challenged? You can't see the player for the vision at this juncture.
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A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.
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As the many, many examples that have been posted here have shown since you made your 'bosses should only appear in missions if it is in the text", either one or two things is true:
1) There are many bosses that aren't listed in the text. This is possible but I'll point out that most of the instances cited thusfar are of generic, not named, mobs. A totem, an archon, an Aberrant Eremite, etc. That is what we are finding in our solo missions.
2) There is a bug that is causing bosses to spawn in solo missions. This is my guess based on what you have said here and in the past.
Lastly, if this is your attitude then you need to either provide more solo content or be more upfront in your advertising that this game is not suited for players who do not want to group at least occasionally.
Scorus
ok, i didnt read all the post but the multiple boss thing is true, i was doing a cot mission alone, and when i got to the end there we 5, yes 5 +1 bosses waiting for me, fortunately i had the eye of magus ( and ALOT! of insp) and was able to solo them, now maybe 5 pre issue 3 bosses are equal to 1 post issue 3, but regardless the mission briefing only mentioned one boss.
I would just like to chime in my 2 cents...I recently experienced a DE mission that spawned 4 bosses, 3 orange and 1 named red con boss. I had to spend all of my inspirations, leave to buy a full tray again, enter the mission, repeat. Each boss fight was way too tough, and I was missing a great deal of the time (even using Aim/Buildup). I defeated the red boss only by a great deal of knockdown luck. My toon was level 31 at the time.
I'm also in the same casual player boat. I only have a limited amount of time to play, and spending almost all of it LFG is not much fun.
That being said, I still love this game. I'm just concerned that my primary hero, a blaster, will no longer be able to solo much of the content.
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Boss Changes
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY.
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If this is the case then there seem to be a lot of missions that specifically override Boss spawns.
Of the last few missions that I have done, all of them but one has had at least one generic Boss (orange or red) in addition to the main 'named' Boss or Lieutenant.
The one I just finished (Crey/Council) had two generic (red) Bosses and one 'named' (orange) Boss.
The one before that (Devouring Earth) had four generic (orange) Bosses.
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I didnt want to impact solo play by increasing mobs across the board. Instead, I focused on Bosses.
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The problem is that this has still impacted solo play, and it has also resulted in very 'lop-sided' missions. Minions are way too easy and Bosses are too hard.
If I leave the difficulty slider at default, minions and lieutenants pose no challenge or threat, but Bosses can take me out if I make too many mistakes or just happen to get really unlucky (they can dish out some insane damage in a single shot).
If I bump the difficulty slider up (which is what I want to be able to do, at least with my Scrapper), the minions and lieutenants get a little more challenging, but the Bosses become too risky to be worth it. All it takes is one mistake or just a little bad luck and I'm down.
I can't raise the slider any more than that without making it impossible to take on the Bosses.
The net result is that I can't really use the difficulty slider effectively, due to the Boss changes.
Not only that, but my other characters will be unable to do many (most?) missions, even at the default difficulty setting.
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As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them.
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Yes, and Team-based content is great. I like Task Forces and I think Trials are cool. I'm all for Team Missions, but I don't feel that they should ever prevent me from being able to log in and have interesting, content-based gameplay, whether I can find a Team (or want to spend the time looking for one) or not.
This is why I would really prefer to see Team Missions be offered from different contacts (or else have my Contact notice whether or not I'm in a Team, and if I am offer me Team-specific missions: "Ah, Silas Dark, I see you have some friends with you. Good, because you're going to need some help for this one...").
If I'm not in a Team, and my regular missions from my regular contacts require a Team, it simply derails gameplay for me. If I wanted (and had time) to join a Team, then I could go to my Contact and get a Team Mission (or else go to special 'Team' Contacts and get one).
Team content is great. Let's have more of it. Solo content is great. Let's have more of that too.
I just want to be able to choose, so that I can spend my time playing instead of going through my missions saying "No, I'll need a Team for that one"... "No, that sounds like it might have a Boss"... etc etc
Silas Dark - Magic Scrapper
Blurg - Science Tanker
Quantium X - Mutation Controller
Grey 17 - Natural Defender
Santabot - Technology Blaster
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
If you want a headstart on your research, you will find MANY examples of solo missions that have unnamed bosses in them in the following thread (and many other threads):
Boss level too high!
I recommend checking out pages ca. 10-20, after you made your 'if there are any bosses, they will be in the mission text' statement but before the thread devolved.
By the way, all but one of the indoor Stiga Islands missions I've done have had an unnamed, unscripted boss in them (either Totem or Archon).
Scorus
Well, since datamining for missions with multiple bosses has begun, I'll present one of them.
A short while ago, my lvl 35 Blaster (solo) did the CoT missions for the Frontline badge. In the last mission for that, he had to face 8 Death Mages, 4 pairs of 2, with a couple close together. Needless to say, I didn't do too well, but succeeded eventually. True, this was BEFORE the Issue 3 changes, but I thought it was worth noting. I don't mind the bosses being there (expected at least), but I would have preferred 2 compared to 8.
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There is also the issue of things like the respec trial, which was even before the change considered very difficult for the average group.
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Before the change, there was a success rate of just under 80%.
[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps, but I'd suggest data-mining the 20% failures to see how many were repeats by the same players over and over. My supergroup failed repeatedly until we picked up a couple heros with abilities we were missing; I suspect (but cannot prove) that certain team maekups are at a distenct disadvantage in there...
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As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them.
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The above statement concerns me quite a bit. The best part of the game to one person is not necessarily the best part of the game to someone else. I prefer to play solo most of the time. But, I do get into groups from time to time. I've been in some good ones, and some bad ones. There are some great people out there. But, there are also some who are not so nice or considerate. I enjoy being in an evironment with other players, though. It presents the chance to chat from time to time, and to see how creative people can be with their name and costume creation.
The great thing about City of Heroes was that it was easy for players new to the MMO game to pick it up and begin playing. I know, I've introduced 4 newbies to the game, who never played an MMO in their lives. They are still learning, but the game was approachable for them. With all the changes that are being made to make things harder, they are having an increasingly difficult time in the game. It's no longer as much fun, because they spend their game time trying to get out of debt. One of those players is my son. I discourage him from grouping with anyone I do not know. My point is that there are alot of valid reasons to make the game enjoyable for both solo and group based players. I don't see any reason to disgruntle those who enjoy soloing. There are lots of comic heroes who go it alone. There are much better ways to promote grouping. Try some better group experience bonuses, for instance.
I personally found the bosses to be quite challenging enough, prior to issue 3. Wouldn't it be easy enough to make the difficulty level the same as pre-issue3 with the slider at the easiest point, and perhaps at post-issue3 difficulty at it's most difficult?
It's easy to get wrapped up in something the more time you spend with it...especially work. Sometimes its good to step back and get some perspective. The vision for the game can and should change, based on what the players most desire, otherwise the game becomes an exercise in frustration, rather than something to enjoy.
Anyway, I hope this path towards forced grouping will stop, and someone will realize that the game needs to be catered to both those who solo, and those who group...and not just one or the other. If I didn't see how much alot of newer MMO gamers used to enjoy this game...and how frustrating its becoming for them now, I wouldn't say anything at all. I guess I've rambled on long enough...time to step off the soapbox.
Hello Statesman, Frankly, regardless of how many paragraphs of supporting ideals you present - if whatever character I play (assuming I do it well) doesn't equal 1 boss, your fired.
I believe that you've raised the level of discouragement in this game too far, and hopefully you will lower it very soon.
I love grouping, but it doesn't always happen - and generally speaking if you don't change this game back to a solo supportable (1 boss = 1 hero) equation then its all just trash in my opinion. And I don't plan to pay the monthly fee just for the comic book....
Here's hoping you decide to give this customer what he wants. But assuming not, thanks for trying to provide a game that let me feel like a hero - it WAS a blast.
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In levels 1 to 22ish, this system works perfectly. Things are about as hard as we wanted them to be. But as soon as players can purchase single origin Enhancements, they rapidly make the above calculations almost irrelevant. A player enters a mission or a zone and can rapidly breeze through +1 to -1 leveled spawns using the calculations above.
A solo player (unless the mission calls specifically for a boss in a spawn override) will create spawns with minions and lts. ONLY. My concern at the mid and higher levels is that a solo Archetype isnt all that powerful. Their inherent weaknesses and strengths really come into play post level 25.
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Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You first say that a solo player can breeze through a mission, and then you say that a solo player is not all that powerful. A well-built solo player has no problem with +2s and +3s for the most part, and any solo player that could effectively solo bosses before is not going to have any trouble doing so now, because this game is about enemy neutralization rather than fighting them straight up. Things only go bad for good players when neutralization becomes impossible.
This holds true for pretty much any non-Blaster archetype, as follows:
<ul type="square">[*]Controller - Before pets it can be fairly slow going, but afterwards it's no issue for pretty much any controller to solo enemies. (This includes Mind Control; the experience drain from confuse is greatly overrated.)[*]Defender - A defender specifically built for soloing will take a bit longer than a blaster, but be extremely difficult to kill while doing it, with less downtime. (Rad, storm, dark, and kinetics primaries mainly.)[*]Scrapper - An extremely well built /DA, or just simply a decently built Inv/Regen/SR don't have any trouble at all. Heck, my SR was taking Terra Volta Raider packs by herself with very little downtime during the 20s, and with the exception of the gaping AoE defense hole, breezed through the 30s. And we won't talk about post-Elude, where I can take on maximum sized mission spawns of +4s, including bosses, just fine if I pay attention to what I'm doing.[*]Tanker - A decently built tanker that sacrifices some defense for offense can start really pounding the snot out of things in the 30s, especially once they get to their 35 and 38 slugger hits.[/list]
Note that all of these are due to support skills, including defenses, debuffs, knockdowns, and the all-important Stamina. That is a large part of the problem with this: The game is too binary right now. You have the support abilities to nullify the enemies, or you don't. That's pretty much it. A /dev or /ice blaster can almost nullify a heck of a lot of enemies. A /fire can't. (Actually, what the crap is /fire good for anyway?)
So, exactly how do their weaknesses and strengths come into play in the late game? As far as I can tell, my Scrapper can ignore the attacks of 99% of the enemies she faces, including bosses, Monsters, Archvillains, and so forth. It takes either an acc buff, def debuff, or something to hit for more than my maximum hit points for me to give notice. Seeing as how enemy buffs/debuffs are comparitively rare, and only a few Archvillains can even hit that hard, this leaves precious few enemies to pose an even remote threat. Exactly what is my weakness here?
My controller gets the amazingly stupidly overpowered EM Pulse, and with the standard Gravity holds can keep the enemies locked down indefinitely while the sings crush them into paste, while the Rad secondary neutralizes what enemies are not held. I don't consume much endurance doing this, I just sit there and toss stuff out occasionally to pretend I'm doing something. And he doesn't even eat the alpha strikes of most groups, since he pulls the Singularities into the group with SS stealth. Where is my weakness? Enemy Dispersion Bubble, which is nonexistent outside of Possessed Scientists post-35, and Fungoids, which are also almost nonexistent post-35. Beyond that, it takes a ridiculous quantity to even bother me.
The simple fact is that enemy difficulty is still there, it is just that some characters are much, much better at nullifying what the enemies do than others are. If you look at the predominant builds in the game, you'll see that a large majority of the successful soloers nullify a large portion of what the enemies do to a great extent. It's not really fighting the enemies when they can't do anything to you. Look at the laundry list of the most popular builds for higher levels right now: Fire and Illusion controllers. Regen, Inv scrappers.(and as soon as people figure it out, SR too) Fire tankers. /Dev blasters. Etc. All of these can nullify the majority of what the enemy is capable of doing, eliminating a large portion of the risk involved.
It isn't SOs that do it, it's the fact that enemies are outright nullified by the available powers. Increasing boss power doesn't make it any harder except for those characters that have not chosen to neutralize them, and this will further sideline builds that cannot. Don't get me wrong, I like the tougher bosses. I really do. But conceiving that it's going to make a huge difference for anything but the players of the game with lesser builds is a joke. The real solution here is to make the enemies buff/debuff more than they currently do, to offset the neutralization that they receive. Don't just make it more difficult for the average players, make it difficult for the good ones too. (The Council Sonic guns are a step in the right direction IMO.)
Were I in your shoes, I would start looking at the situations that cause this and what can be done to rectify them, rather than attempting to modify the numbers involved.
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I have to say that's an extremely perceptive & well-thought-out post.
DS
"Hello Statesman, Frankly, regardless of how many paragraphs of supporting ideals you present - if whatever character I play (assuming I do it well) doesn't equal 1 boss, your fired."
*Chuckle*
Gods I hope that was sarcasm.
I can second that, 2 devoureds in a DE mission solo yesterday. I'm a tank, built for it, but even I get nailed pretty good by them, and damn slow to kill purple bosses now.
Not complaining, I like the new challenge.
Oh - and have you read the posts about the mission experience NOT being the same for two team members after they exit a mission set on invincible? Might be other settings as well. Had a partner today, exited, I got 6000xp as the mission holder with invincible, she got 12000.
I haven't read the whole thread because, honestly, I'd rather get back to the game.... Forgive me if I'm just repeating someone more experienced than me. 
My biggest problem with the bosses in this game is that they're all tank/scrappers.... There's no expression of Bosses that seem more like the other archetypes until late in the game, and even then they're tanks with extra powers.
Raw damage capacity shouldn't be the only way to make a strong opponent.... If you balance the bosses the way you've balanced the player ATs, people wouldn't have much cause to complain. I could accept a boss with the massive damage output if they were Blaster-style glass cannons, and I could deal with ultra-tough Tankers with less damage per minute.... I would crap my pants if a group of bosses were balanced ATs, but I'd still want to fight them. Fighting a group of 5-6 tanks is not an impossible battle, but it is a really boring one.
When I see one boss, I don't get intimidated, I get pissed because (depending on my own AT) I'm going to either pile up the biggest set of cheap shots I can manage or plunk myself down for a long and uninteresting drag-out fist fight. Either would be fun once in a while, but neither is fun every time.... I predict that this kind of grind is the reason I'll eventually leave the game.
The fix you implemented really makes this difference between heroes and villains really clear. I hope the solution you come up with goes more in the direction of differentiation of bosses, rather than overall scaling up and down of them all. I realize that leaving the possibility for one-shotting bosses is scary, but creativity should trump all. You've been creative enough to get this far, so you should be able to keep piling new innovations on top of it.
I've noticed a few tankers expressing their happiness with the status quo of the moment. I would like to point out that one well managed tanker or scrapper still DOES equal one boss, or better. But they are not for me.
Give the squishies back their dignity. Like my daughter says, "I want to do it myself".
Let people choose to team, and enjoy soloing as well. Drop the BS about "vision" and "data gathering". Or, just do it your way....
For your datamining:
Mission: Defeat all Freaks and Family
Contact: Christine Lansdale
90 minute timed mission, no mention of bosses (named or otherwise)
Boss: Rivets (Tank Smasher) - even-level boss (orange)
Edit: Here's how the fight went.
* Spent 3+ minutes laying 10 trip mines and a caltrop field.
* Sniped Rivets with Zapp (NOTE: Freakshow are vulnerable to electricity).
* Managed to hit with both Lightning Bolt and Charged Bolts before his ranged attack knocked me over.
* Boss entered melee as I was getting up, killed me.
* Fortunately, boss hit my trip mines just as he killed me. He died from the combined power of 10 trip mines and my earlier attacks.
End result: I gain more debt than XP for the timed mission.
In response to statesmans original post...
Okay, I realize that by saying this, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is going to hate me... but if the problem starts when people start getting single origin enhancements...
Get rid of Single origin enhancements. Or rather make SO's as effective as Dual origins, and elimnate dual origins. Tihs would make the enhancements system a bit boring, i suppose, so maybe at higher levels they could get enhancements that last longer or something.
You all hate me now, I guess.
I firmly believe that boss difficulty should ramp up with group size, or mission slider. If a character walks into a mission solo with mission on hard boiled, boss would appear as normal, pre I3 hp and damage. Invincible, what we have now. Groups of 3 or more get the new tough bosses, regardless of sliders...
If a spawn can check level of group leaders passing by, it should also be able to check mission sliders...
The game was marketed as an "anyone can solo" game. If soloing means leaving a mission, and coming back in 3 levels so you can finish it, someone better check their Websters..
I can solo the new bosses. I'm not upset about any of my heroes getting nerfed. Even my Invuln scrapper is still doing well, and having fun. I am upset that now I will never have a controller or defender. Because I will never make a hero that HAS to group to play. It's just not heroic.
And why is a normal boss 1.5 heroes? Shouldn't it be even odds for any hero to defeat a normal boss? A named boss should be 1.5, but then, which hero do you base the 1.5 on? Logic would dictate that you base that 1.5 on the lowest common denomenator. Which means that 2 of the 4 AT's should still be able to solo it at any level....
Choosing to group is a fun and rewarding time. Having to group is a grind, and it gets old very quickly.
I will repeat for emphasis, please let boss difficulty be tied to mission slider, or group size. Let people solo when they want, and group when they want.
The choices we get to make about our gameplay can make a good game great. We need to have the choice to solo or group.
It might be different if it weren't 8 months into retail, but we have grown to love a game that we can actually play without a huge group, and a huge timesink. Why take that away?
Again I stress, not all AT's are affected, but I will never play an AT that has been....
This all kind of reminds me of when there was the problem with mobs in missions going from +1 to -5 levels below the hero! (Ie., the frontloaded mission problem part II)
At that time, Statesman, said, "No the maximum level range in a mission is 2 levels, or +1 to -1, based on the player with the mission."
That statement was correct as far as he knew it to be but in fact it was not.
That was not his fault. He told the designers: "Do it like this" and they said, "Ok, we did," but in fact they didn't. There was no way for him to know that...other than through the forthcoming 1,000,000 posts by us saying that we were getting gray bosses at the end of missions--what a different world we live in now, eh!