[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
States, it has been the experience of a great many players (mentioned on other threads) that *multiple* unnamed bosses show up on missions that they entered alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll check this!
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking as a scrapper, PLEASE don't change this! Or, at least make increasing the difficulty keep multi-boss spawns in missions!
Speaking as a non-scrapper.... Hm. I mostly team then.... Um.... Same as above?
Thanks for the response, States!
[ QUOTE ]
In levels 1 to 22ish, this system works perfectly. Things are about as hard as we wanted them to be. But as soon as players can purchase single origin Enhancements, they rapidly make the above calculations almost irrelevant. A player enters a mission or a zone and can rapidly breeze through +1 to -1 leveled spawns using the calculations above.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hm, what I'm hearing here is that the real problem my level 26 blaster is suddenly facing is that I didn't run off and buy him SO enhancements right away.
Which kinda sums up the problem for me.
I wrote about the dedicated but casual player after I2 came out and my friends and I suddenly stopped enjoying the game. I'm getting a similar feeling here.
I don't want to play CoH with crib notes on the absolutely optimal build for the game. I don't want to have to stop every time I level and look for a guide to know what to do next. I want to enjoy the game. I was not aware that switching over my DOs for SOs at level 22 (or that 22 was the level this was possible) was a goal I had to focus on. Quite honestly, I looked at my level 23 controller recently and realized I hadn't switched all his trainings for DOs and I wasn't able to afford that. A teammate told me my problem was that I should've been making sure to sell my enhancements at the "right" stores all this time, which is just further of that kind of perfect game grind that makes the game lose its appeal.
I guess the short version is that I'm feeling that, like in I2, the powergamers' perspective on what makes the game challenging was seen over the more casual gamer's perspective.
[ QUOTE ]
As for why we put Bosses in missions at all in other words, why isnt everything solo-able the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them. Ive made many good virtual friends through other MMPs that I simply would not have done if I could solo everything all the time. I admit it: Im anti-social. Its hard to get me to group up with strangers. But after I do it, I always wonder why dont I do this more often
I might still be anti-social in real life, but in MMPs Im a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come
)
[/ QUOTE ]
Teaming unlocks a lot of what makes and MMO great, but it also draws out unhealthy MMO behavior in me. I realize that and I have characters that are meant for soloing so I could get my CoH fix without taking a risk. Unfortunately, teaming brings out some compulsive behavior for me. I'm not good at walking away. I've skipped meals, caused relationship tensions and been a zombie at work because I had a hard time walking away from a team. I know that's my problem, but one way I deal with it is by playing solo. However, now I'm feeling less like I can't jump in for a quick game, take care of a mish and satisfy a CoH itch.
I guess one question I have to ask is was so many people feeling like the higher level game too unchallenging so that everyone had to had their difficulty upped to this degree? I see how some people felt that way, but at level 26 with DOs not SOs the game was feeling comfortable to me. Still giving me challenge but not frustrating me.
I think a good part of my frustration is the increased power of the bosses. With cautious strategy, I used to be able to solo a boss. I'd have to take the time to isolate him and be ready to run, but now a Freak Tank can send me from 2/3 HP to zero with one hit. It feels like I should run the first time I get hit by a boss. Increased HP is understandable, but they also seem to be hitting much harder. I used to feel like I died because I made some dumb move and if I learned to be more alert in my play I would survive the next battle. I'm not feeling that way anymore, I don't see lessons to be learned when my character dies.
[ QUOTE ]
Because of your feedback, I'll have someone on our team look at the number of bosses in missions from levels 1 to 50. I don't mind later missions perhaps including a greater % than earlier missions (if only because players are more powerful and have made friends with others), but your posts want me to doublecheck the exact numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's great to hear because I regularily get 2-3 bosses in 3/4 of the missions that I get - and that is not fun for a blaster.
My Recent Boss Experiences.
Main Character: Moonboy, 31st level Force Field/Radiation Technology Defender. Infinity server. Six slotted X-Ray and Neutron Blast filled (save for one slot I think) with five SO damage enhancements and one SO Accuracy enhancement. The main big bubble power also has six mostly SO defense enhancements.
1. Yep, noticed the new boss toughness right away. So far I've done three missions with bosses and been told there was a boss on one of them. I managed to solo the two orange bosses - but it was a tought fight - , then went to get help to deal with the red boss.
2. I can understand the idea behind encouraging teaming, but... I don't like it. In fact, I really dislike it. Been playing for eight months now, still have never found a supergroup to join. I've grouped in the past, a little, but never ever seen the same people again or been contacted by them. I have a couple people in my friend list, but I never see them on. So, teaming is reallly a big minus for me. Enforced teaming... well, not good at all. Even de facto forced teaming.
I've given it some thought, though, and might take some of the Leadership pool powers that enable others to do more damage or defend better. But I'd really prefer not to.
3. Really, really need to make sure that the boss warning is in the mission statement. As in a big red 'Warning: Lark's Vomit, er, Boss' Usually seeing a person's name is an indication, but not always. Also, there have been a couple where I've accepted and then the contact says 'Oh, by the way, look out for Hero Skull Buster, he's bad news' or something similar.
I still have two missions to do that require teaming, since they require that a number of bombs or whatever be fooled with at once.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll check this!
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. I can only imagine in my mind Jack Emmert running down the halls of Cryptic with one of those "issue 2 exclusive capes" on and punching one of the server guys in imitation of the power "brawl".
[ QUOTE ]
I liked City of Heroes for one reason mainly. I could play solo. I am a Dad and when things come up with the kids and the wife I MUST leave the computer you just can't REASONABLY stress reasonably do that in a group. Its not fair to the group. You say MMP shines with a group that may be true. But yours was different it finally was a place solo players could fight solo and just chat with other people. You did not have to fight as a group. But as time goes by each change seems to move away from that. I just feel you are working against me now. As a dad I may need to look elsewhere for an online game.
Terry Bailey Sr.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto on this statement.
This is the only online game I have stuck to (and plan to stick with) precisely because I can log on for a quick mission while the kids are getting put to sleep, wife is getting ready to go out, etc.
I think the genre (and the great game) attracts many of us who want some online gaming experiences, but need it to be flexible enough that we can solo at will (instead of standing around trying to form a team for 10 minutes).
I'll keep paying my monthly fee, even if I'm not on 4 hours a night, grinding through levels. But only if it continues such a great game for my situation.
I3 IMHO was a solid update(and that is from a DM/Inv Scrapper). The Boss change I think was cool. Talk about being suprised the first time I "aressted" a Boss after I3 - hehe.
I can say that as a Scrapper it is loads of fun but as a Def it can be rather rough. I realise however that was the choice I made as a Def. I just need to relearn how to beat them, change my tactics and have fun doing it.
[ QUOTE ]
Some people are unable to read between the lines. When Indigo told me that the Malta were going to be guarding a hideout with some "pretty heavy firepower" I knew there were going to be multiple Zeus Class Titans in the mission in addition to the named boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, when the contact says "Search for clues regarding..." and does not say to take help I dont' expect to find 3 fake nemisis standing around.
I don't know if there can ever be a game designed for casual players because I don't think there will ever be a game designed BY casual players...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is also the issue of things like the respec trial, which was even before the change considered very difficult for the average group.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before the change, there was a success rate of just under 80%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesmen you have used the 80% number before on the success rate of the Respec TF and that did not feel right to me then and it does not feel right now. 
So, I have a couple of questions for you about that statistic, first what constitutes a failure?
My meaning is if a group starts the TF and then the whole groups drops the TF before the Reactor explosion because they think its to difficult or have had to many deaths is that considered as a TF failure? Because many of the groups I have been on that we as players have considered failures were when the whole team drops out after several team wipes. This would usually happen after going into the first big room of Tera Volta mission, the room with 6 side doors and the bomb trap by the far door, after one or two team wipes everyone would quit and go back to the IP contact to get-on or make a better team for the TF. 
IMO that's a failure.
SO could you give me the statistics on the % of the respect TF that are started to the % that are completed successfully?
I just can't believe that 80% of the Respect TF started are completed successfully!
Really, Really, Really interested in the answer...
PS what type of army do you play in 40K? I play a Black Templar space marine army 
I have some mixed feelings on this. If the player hits the boss first, they will most likely win. If not...well running never hurt.
Since you are looking into this, would you mind looking at AV AoE's? My little blaster has to stand uncomfotable close to one to use something besides my two bolts and snipe attack.
~Liger
I think my thoughts on the matter can be condensed into one simple question.
Why does 'encouraging grouping' have to come at the expense of soloing?
I just don't get it. A fairly reasonable number of missions seemed soloable by most people before, they were having fun, and they weren't harming anyone in doing it.
Now, the option to run a solo mission or two is gone for some people. I don't have the numbers, heck, now that I think of it, the numbers are pretty much irrelevant.
It just doesn't make sense to me to remove an option that people might enjoy rather than improving things for the people that do group. How does 'making it nigh impossible for many to solo' equate to 'rewarding grouping'? I guess in the broadest sense it does, because your reward is 'being able to advance in the game', but that doesn't necessarily make it the best option.
If you want to 'reward grouping', why can't you just tweak the xp so that no matter what the condition, groups are able to get better xp than soloing? Bang. Groups get every possible benefit. From faster xp, to folks to chat and joke with other people while they play.
Meanwhile, us soloists are off in our corner, contentedly beating things down alone in between writing our paper, surfing the net, taking care of our kids, or whatever it is that makes us prefer to solo. Someone, please, tell me where the downside is to this, cause I just don't see it.
Wile E. Canuck.
On a personal note, I'd just like to say while I still don't love a lot of I3, I found the Invulnerability changes less disruptive than anticipated. Everything is tolerable. That's the good news.
However, the patch went live buggy. Obviously it was undertested. Tough Hide is still mislabled, server crashes are prominant (especially notable on Guardian and Pinnacle from what I've seen), and there are quite a few minor errors sprinkled in. But as for bosses...
Well, I've yet to be 1-shotted. And this is because I play a tanker. That being said, I've seen numbers that might 1-shot even tankers coming from bosses, barring damage resistance. This is a bad sign. Their utterly insane HP makes scrapper damage mitigation (taking down the threats) impossible. Others have even more nightmarish episodes. The scaling is so bad I can fight +6 minions and Lts, but have trouble with a boss my own level. This combined with obvious errors in mission programming makes it difficult or impossible for even teams to deal with bosses they come up against. Bosses need their damage reduced significantly, and their HP reduced slightly. An easier method of compensating would be to have minions and lts spawn at higher levels or in larger groups than before.
Then again, it is your system to tinker with.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
States, it has been the experience of a great many players (mentioned on other threads) that *multiple* unnamed bosses show up on missions that they entered alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll check this!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a few of examples of this happening, although, to be completely and utterly fair, one was near the end of a story arc and I think two said that I should get help for the missions (in one case, it said "Bring help. Lots and lots of help.")
One is during the 12 Men of Malta arc. During a mission in which you have to infiltrate a lab, there are Zeus Titans everywhere. Like, every other room.
The second is during a Nemesis mission that you get from Maxwell Christopher. The entire base is apparently a trap set up to snag you, so it is filled to the brims with Fake Nemesis, only one of which needs to be beaten down for the mission complete. This is the one in which my contact advised me to get help.
My final one was during a Nemesis Portal mission, in which I'm supposed to cut off a dimension that Nemesis used a doomsday weapon on off from our reality. On 'Tenacious', there were False Nemesis in a good quarter of the groups standing around. This one didn't say anything about help that I can recall, although it didn't require the bosses to die for the mission complete. They did spawn so close to the glowies that it would have been very, very difficult had I not had stealth.
Problem: Bosses are too easy for teams at high level, but AFAIK about right solo.
Solution: Make bosses harder for teams, while not making them more difficult for solo players.
(Current solution: Take away problem for teams, give new problem to soloers.)
.................Level of Players
# Players.....25-30....31-35....36-40......41-45....46-50
1.................--...........--..........--..........--..........+1
2.................--...........--..........--..........+1.........+1
3.................--...........--..........+1.........+1.........+1
4.................--..........+1..........+1..........+1.........+1
5.................+1.........+1..........+1....... ...+1.........+2
6.................+1.........+1..........+1....... ...+2.........+2
7.................+1.........+1..........+2....... ...+2.........+2
8.................+1.........+2..........+2....... ...+2.........+3
...................PLUS TO BOSS LEVEL
Or whatever.
And instead of having the boss say "Lvl 45" and fight at Lvl 46, please have the boss say "Level 46" if it's fighting at Level 46.
From the man:
[ QUOTE ]
I didnt want to impact solo play by increasing mobs across the board. Instead, I focused on Bosses. We increased the damage, hit points and XP of Bosses to be exactly one level higher. In other words, a level 30 Boss, now more closely resembles a level 31 Boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi,
Here's the squishy point of view:
As a fire/fire blaster (lev 38) I was never a boss killer, but with a few
luck inspirations I could do most even level bosses, except Paragon
Protectors. That "I'm now immune to fire/fire blasters" spell they cast at 25%
HP is a pain! 
Now, I just avoid bosses completely, unless they con white. Maybe yellow
if I'm feeling really adventurous and have been debt free for awhile.
If I HAVE to fight one I'll load up on purple inspirations first.
As for running across a suprise boss and being one-shotted... I always
run around with SuperSpeed and Stealth on, so they don't see me.
AVs? Ha! Haven't even tried soloing them since Dr. Vahz mopped the floor
(the sewer floor, yuck!) with me at level 15. This was with 8 or so
inspirations up and running.
So give me a good tank and a brutal/regen scrapper, and I'll try an AV...
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, please understand that a lot of us aren't asking for everything to be soloable. What we want is to be able to solo interesting story-based missions when we choose.
This means having soloable instanced missions separated from the group-encouraged/required ones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well-put!
It is very easy for players to decide that when they form a Task Force and go to a special Task Force contact, that they are in for a long series of group-based missions.
What bothers some of us is that when we deal with our private contacts, we may not be able to solo the missions they offer -- indeed, may not be *allowed* to solo them in a few cases (simul-click bombs).
It is wonderful to emphasize and reward group play, but it is also important to make solo content available to players in an unambiguous way.
If the standard story arcs really require groups to complete, then there should be a new venue for solo-players to choose missions that are absolutely soloable by even the weak archetypes.
One easy solution is to allow the difficulty slider to slide in the "easy" direction instead of just making things harder.
Even marking the mission one-liner summary at the bottom of the window with (Solo) or (Group) would be reasonable as long as there were some story arcs that were (Solo)-rated all the way through.
But I would then ask: If Task Force missions require groups, and respec missions require groups, and arch-villain missions require groups, and contact missions require groups what TYPE of missions are intended for soloing?
Also, changing enemy Hit Points can never really balance difficulty issues with a game like this. All it does is skew the overall difficulty of the game whether solo or in a group. The difficulty is now skewed harder, with the option to make it "even extra-more harder" with the slider. That is, those who struggled before now have no chance of success, and those who breeze through it are fewer in number and thus resented by the rest even more than before.
[ QUOTE ]
I think the genre (and the great game) attracts many of us who want some online gaming experiences, but need it to be flexible enough that we can solo at will (instead of standing around trying to form a team for 10 minutes).
[/ QUOTE ]
Eighth - you've hit the nail on the head! Positron and I were just talking about this; part of the beauty of the game is that you don't need to wait in order to get to fun. I don't want to lose that in the rush to encourage grouping. Like I've said, I'm going to review the missions this week and see how many have bosses at the different level ranges.
Thanks for the post. it's nice to get so detailed an explanation.
I'd like to address one of the forced grouping issues that has not yet gotten much play -- that of how it takes away from the ability to enjoy content in the game.
As a bit of background, I am a co-lead of an active SG and team very regularly. I also take pride that my main character has done every single story arc that was available to her at the time. I like to go through story arcs in depth. I read all the clues, pay attention to the back story, and generally try to enjoy the content as much as the battles. Arcs like The Wheel of Destruction, the Freaklympics, Ubelmann the Unknown, and the Organ Grinders are clever and unique and add a lot to the normal grind of the game. At least for me. Some of my teammates get more enjoyment out of the group dynamics and the fighting (which I also enjoy).
BUT -- no matter what your feeling about the content is, it's a lot harder to really savor content on a team, because you're likely to be switching from arc to arc, depending on who has missions in which zone ("why schlep to Talos for that next mission on your arc when there's two others right here in Brickstown?"), and who can call a contact for new missions instead of having to run across the city for more missions.
So for me at least, there's a contradiction. Teaming is a lot of fun, but it's harder to really appreciate significant parts of the content when you're teaming. I solved this contradiction by soloing my story arcs. That doesn't work so well anymore. Now, as my Controller hits her upper 30s, I've run into the problem that as I get more powerful, I am less able to solo. This Boss change has made life harder -- and my Ill/Rad controller is a pretty solo-friendly build. My Controller can generally avoid being one-shotted by a boss, but if my holds miss and/or my toggles drop I am one dead Controller. Not fun.
In other words, it seems to me that the goal of encouraging grouping and the goal of content enjoyment are somewhat mutually exclusive, and that this change has sharpened the contradiction there.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the genre (and the great game) attracts many of us who want some online gaming experiences, but need it to be flexible enough that we can solo at will (instead of standing around trying to form a team for 10 minutes).
[/ QUOTE ]
Eighth - you've hit the nail on the head! Positron and I were just talking about this; part of the beauty of the game is that you don't need to wait in order to get to fun. I don't want to lose that in the rush to encourage grouping. Like I've said, I'm going to review the missions this week and see how many have bosses at the different level ranges.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please make grouping better, don't punish soloers. There are many ideas on this thread how to do that. Exp bonus comes to mind. Listing missions as group/solo, which you indicated will happen, will also help.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is also the issue of things like the respec trial, which was even before the change considered very difficult for the average group.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before the change, there was a success rate of just under 80%.
[/ QUOTE ]
The figures after shouldn't be as huge.
Then again, people will wander in and call us that cannot complete the first respec trial whiners and bad tacticians.
1st respec - I messed up, and I need to fix it.
2nd respec - I've gotten it to where I want it, now I wanna fine tune it.
3rd respec - Almost done, but I still seem ineffective, lets rearrange my enh's slots and get myself into an epic power pool, because I missed it before.
It's the 1st respec I'm worried about, especially with my squishy Kheldon that can't take more than 2 shots from a boss, or one and a half from those overpowered Void Stalkers, which i'm sure litter the taskforce in +1's and +2's. The bosses you've changed will play havoc with those on their first respec, because as you enter the outter reactor, your greeted with handfulls of bosses, many +1, just as many +2.
Check the first set of statstics of pass vs fail for the first task force after a month. I'm sure that percentage will drop on pass/fail.
Dont forget to look at Task Forces / Respecs / Glowie missions too
[ QUOTE ]
part of the beauty of the game is that you don't need to wait in order to get to fun. I don't want to lose that in the rush to encourage grouping.
[/ QUOTE ]
That should be on a big flying banner over Cryptic, and forcibly tattooed on the foreheads of any upcoming MMOG developers.
While you're at it, could you /please/ take a look at the number of door missions beyond 45 that can be done solo? It seems like I can't find a mission that doesn't have an AV or Monster in it, much less a boss. Bosses I can still handle, but AVs and Monsters are out of the question. Thanks.
The easiest solution to bosses 1 shotting more squishy AT's is you can add a gloating/taunting aspect to the encounter b4 the boss actually attacks. This would add flavor to bosses and also give us a chance to back up a bit b4 getting whalloped by them. Have the bosses talk alittle "game" b4 he does his business.
I dunno. I just think bosses during TF's are..way too tough.
States me and my group of 32's and 33's took the manticore TF oohh about last saturday, we started it about at 7:00. and granted I'm used to long TF's taking from 7:00 to 4:00 or so. but we only got done with the first two missions and only about 10% of the third.
It was about 1:00 when we quit. There would have been no way we would have completed it in a reasonable hour. I dunno I think these boss changes are good in the fact you're upgrading bosses.
but they're bad when it comes to respec / Task Forces / Save the Glowie missions