States: Will you be true to your word?
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2004-11-30 06:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game.
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Don't mean to pick on this one too much, not all Controllers have pets, and they are not all equal in Damage per second either, I had a quick play on the test server and those Rikti Bosses sure were tough, but because of the 'controlling' factor in some aspect you are correct, it was still relatively risk-free, will just take a long time, would love to hear some experiences from a Mind/Grav/Ice Controller.
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Increased mob hitpoints will just increase the amt of time it takes a controller to kill something. While this would affect all the controller classes, Gravity, Ice and Mind would be hurt the most due to their lack of damage potential from their pets or in minds case lack of a pet.
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lower the damage dealt by blasters and scrappers slightly.
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Um, excuse me? Aoe alpha strikes are an issue, so lower scrapper damage? Please show me my ranged aoe attack, I seem to be missing it. Thank you, no, my damage is high, but mostly against single targets, I don't need it lowered. Don't lump scrappers in with blasters.
Actually the AoE fall off idea isn't mine, it's a SG mates, but as he's not as much of a Forums hound as I am, I'm championing it. I've always liked it, this isn't the first time I've posted it, and others of my SG have posted it as well. It's something I'd really like to see, and I think it is the solution we need here.
I'm glad you liked it too.
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This sort of fallacy is driving me *nuts!* The HP increase is a nerf. Here's why.
1. Problem = AoE attacks (particularly alpha strikes) are dominating combat and making combat too easy.
2. Solution? Raise Mob HP and XP. Now alpha strikes are hindered.
3. Problem? Now all other attacks are hindered, too.
4. Result? Everybody gets nerfed, but AoE attackers can make up for it a little easier than single target attackers.
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That's exactly right. Imagine another scenario. You have a school with 1 genius kid, and the rest are normal kids. The genius is blowing away all the tests, so instead of doing something to affect the one kid(in that case, make things harder on THAT kid only, by moving him to harder material perhaps), you decide to make all the material 3 grades higher for everyone. Great, the genius is now sweating and being challenged! But wait, now the other 99% of the class are failing! Ah well, that's ok, at least you fixed the problem of the genius having things too easy. Problem solved!
The genius kid is the COH players who have the AoE attacks that cause the problems. If those are the problem, the best thing is to fix that problem, not raise the difficulty on everyone. The key is to fix it properly, and only change what is broken, and if that means a AT by AT decision, or even one power set gets changed and another stays the same, or even single powers get changed, whatever is the problem should be addressed. Upping the "grading system" for everyone only makes everyone else struggle in order to adjust the more limited problem.
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lower the damage dealt by blasters and scrappers slightly.
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Um, excuse me? Aoe alpha strikes are an issue, so lower scrapper damage? Thanks you, no, my damage is high, but mostly against single targets, I don't need it lowered. Don't lump scrappers in with blasters.
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Blasters and scrappers deal comparitive damage, with blasters (at least theoretically) being higher than scrappers. By the deffanitions within the game itself, scrappers are already "lumped in" with blasters.
If they lower blaster damage without touching scrapper damage, suddenly they will not be the top dog of damage dealers, and while I have no problems with this personally, I'm sure the blasters would complain, and to a degree, rightfully so.
Perhaps the answer is not to lower blaster OR scrapper damage, but blaster AND scrapper AoE damage. Perhaps just blaster AoE's, but since we don't have the sheer numbers in front of us, it wouldn't surprise me to find that one needed to be tweaked alongside the other.
I just wanted to say that as a post-level 32 fire controller I absolutely love the change to mob hit points. However, had I been a pre-32 fire controller I'd probably be gnashing my teeth something awful.
Please don't change the hit points (because I think it makes the game more fun), but do consider upping dmg for low dmg characters.
*does a Tourettes happy tanker dance*
Thank you for stating this publically. I'm sure that I speak for all tanks when I say thank you, and that we very much look forward to your words this Friday.
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I don't expect an answer form States on this one.
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I do. 
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Heheh. God, I love when the cynical whiners trip over their own feet like that.
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Hey, don't lump my blaster in with the scrappers (Couldn't help it)
Anyway, unwelcome as it will be, I'm going to add in my two cents here. First off, for those of you that care, I'm a level 33 AR/Energy blaster (Just for the record, I picked those because it fit the character, and shied away from AR/Dev because it didn't feel heroic to me, not because I ran to consult to Powerleveling Guide to The Next Nerf Target). People continually throw a lot of stuff at me over the AOE damage, and constantly site that blasters are only improved by this upgrade.
Not quite.
First, I'll admit that truly hardcore power-built blasters can probably still do what they used to do, they're better then I am.
However, when people refer to the AOE 'problem' it seems like the problem is 'Blasters can kill mobs quick! But I can't do that! Why should they breeze through so many minions so quickly?'
Because it's fully neccesary. Lowering AOE damage to solve this problem would not hinder blasters, it would destroy them. The ONLY successful strategy for a soloing blaster is offense. An even conned freak minion can hit me for 1/7 of my total hp...at range! I can kill the minions quickly, or they get off a handful of shots and I catch a blaster-nap. If the minions survive any longer then they already do, I'm toast. Hell, I've been killed just waiting for the animation for Full Auto to end. Blasters are supposed to be an offense geared class, and they're turning into dedicated support classes, by virtue of only being somewhat playable in groups...and what happens in groups? They bug everyone for killing the monsters too fast for the other members to get more shots in.
Just my ramble, you don't have to agree with me (In fact, I would be very sad for you if a half-hearted rant changed your mind) but you really do need to think of what would happen to blasters with AOE reduced. We're already half-way useless for a team, tolerated only because we can kill things. Take that away, and we'll be ungroupable AND Unsoloable.
Bah, my .02 influence. Let the tanker/controller/defender/scrapper/fire-energyblaster counter examples begin
en/en blaster here. i only have one AOE and i use it to knock people down, not for damage. take it away. i don't care.
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However, when people refer to the AOE 'problem' it seems like the problem is 'Blasters can kill mobs quick! But I can't do that! Why should they breeze through so many minions so quickly?'
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AFAICT, the "problems" w/ AoE attacks are mostly alpha attacks. Alpha attacks kill mobs before they can strike back, which destroys the "glass cannon" game balance for Blasters (a dead mob can't kill you, right?). Also messes up some Tank and Scrap balance b/c they can rake in much more Xp than intended. W/o AoE attacks that can take out big groups of mobs, it's not that big a deal. But the AoE attacks allow heros to take out huge groups of mobs solo, which was not intended.
AFAICT, the hp changes were intended to get rid of the alpha strike by making mob hp>capped AoE damage. The intent was to make AoE blasts require teams - some damage mitigation - to make it work on big groups, b/c otherwise too much damage would filter back.
It doesn't work as intended, though. Subby for one can still plow through teh same mobs as before, just a little slower. And w/ more net XP/minute. AoE blasters can just attack -1 level mobs and do the same thing. Worse, single-target blasters adn support AT;s are totally screwed.
I must agree Blasters the way they have been designed are simply damage dealers that is all. Personally I am not so sure why they even feel there is a problem with Alpha Strikes and such. I think if they are worried as much about Alpha Strikes then they need to make it so such large groups of mobs do not get as close together as they do now. Thereby making the Alphas not as useful. I can tell you even now if I use my AoE in a group to early before other characters can get some aggro I am dead in a few seconds. The truth is I find a lot of the time it is almost better to stick with my single attacks until a lot of the mobs are dead.
I'm sorry. I thought mob HP were fine. Did I miss something?
Why even make things more difficult for tankers, controllers, and defenders? My controllers and defenders have a hard time soloing as it is. Why increase the HP at all?
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If you really want to address the AoE problem you need to... nerf the AoE attacks .
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I think I speak for most players when I say this should NEVER be a suggestion. First, it's just wrong to call for another AT to get weakened in any way just because you don't like it, are jealous of its success, can't think of a better way, and so on.
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I see, only Blasters have AEs. My Spines scrapper must be pretty confused then. And all Blasters are AE masters. Guess those Electrical blasters are a bit confused, too.
Herding works because AE attacks can kill an unlimited number of MOBs if they can be encouraged to be close enough together. The max HP a single target attack can do = ~4X its base damage. You need 6 damage SOs + build-up + an outside buff to get there. To do 4x their (lower) base damage, an AE attack needs to have 4 MOBs within its AE radius. If base damage for an AE is half that of an quivalent single target, than it takes 3 SOs + those 4 MOBs.
AE attacks are imbalancing. They aren't limited to blasters. They need to be fixed. Raising MOB HP has a lot of side effects that a true AE fix (decreasing damage as you get further from the center of the AE, Total HP cap, Max 3 of MOBs per hit, lower base damage, separate damage and acc enhancements like the cone range enhancement, or one of the 50 other ideas on these boards).
That said, the minion HP change isn't really aimed at AEs. It is meant to make combat longer in the belief that longer combats and the death of the alpha strike will make the roles of tanks, controllers and defenders more needed in combat. I don't know that this is true. I do know that the extra end needed to get through a combat makes it harder for support ATs even on a team - and soloing is even worse for ATs who were already far, far below the other ATs in soloability (so much more disadvantaged in the ability to solo than they are advantaged in their ability to team).
In short, the implementation of this change to production without the "oomph" promised is going to hurt the support ATs more than it helps them.
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If you really want to address the AoE problem you need to... nerf the AoE attacks .
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I think I speak for most players when I say this should NEVER be a suggestion. First, it's just wrong to call for another AT to get weakened in any way just because you don't like it, are jealous of its success, can't think of a better way, and so on.
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I see, only Blasters have AEs. My Spines scrapper must be pretty confused then. And all Blasters are AE masters. Guess those Electrical blasters are a bit confused, too.
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I'm more confused as to why you think we (electrial blasters) are bad at Area of Effect attacks. We are better at it that either energy or ice blasters. And heck, I'd take Short circuit over Fireball any day, and I certainly like it better than Buckshot.
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Blasters and scrappers deal comparitive damage, with blasters (at least theoretically) being higher than scrappers. By the deffanitions within the game itself, scrappers are already "lumped in" with blasters. If they lower blaster damage without touching scrapper damage, suddenly they will not be the top dog of damage dealers, and while I have no problems with this personally, I'm sure the blasters would complain, and to a degree, rightfully so.
Perhaps the answer is not to lower blaster OR scrapper damage, but blaster AND scrapper AoE damage. Perhaps just blaster AoE's, but since we don't have the sheer numbers in front of us, it wouldn't surprise me to find that one needed to be tweaked alongside the other.
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There's a little thing called ...."range". Please show me my aoe ranged attack, I seem to be missing it. Scrapper's aoes do not compare to blasters. You don't think that higher damage aoes, more aoes (in general) and range makes up for anything?
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I'm just about to leave to catch a flight back to the West Coast...
Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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Has it dawned on you that this likely wouldn't be an issue if you had never bothered with the purple patch?
-- Xurbax
Did anythone think about the difficulty slide pushes mob level from below 25 to above 25 the mobs become WAY harder. Just a random thought!
I do agree that the increase in mob hit points isn't necessarily a good thing. However I think that the real problem here is the total fallacy that support archetypes are "weak". I can pretty much guarantee you that blasters, the most-maligned of the two "damage" ATs, have experienced several times more debt than any controller, defender, or tanker that has a decent grasp of how to use their powers effectively. I really don't see the problem with alpha strikes, either, to be honest. Yes, they do massive amounts of damage.. but in a sense, they need to do that. If a blaster alpha strikes a pack of mobs even two of them live through that, the blaster is dead. The assault rifle's 9th primary power is Full Auto. It deals out massive damage over time . When they activate that power, they have to stand there for several seconds. If a few mobs get close enough during that time.. again, dead blaster.
The other large issue here is this: People need to spend less time worrying about what other peoples' heros can do. If you play an archetype and enjoy playing that archetype, all good. I don't care if a blaster can stealth his/her way into the middle of a dozen +10 bosses and alpha strike them into dust! If they can do that and are happy to be able to play that way, it's none of my concern. If the abilities of another archetype are somehow ruining your enjoyment of the game, that is your problem, not theirs. Concentrate on your character and your gameplay, and you'll enjoy it a lot more.
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I do agree that the increase in mob hit points isn't necessarily a good thing. However I think that the real problem here is the total fallacy that support archetypes are "weak". I can pretty much guarantee you that blasters, the most-maligned of the two "damage" ATs, have experienced several times more debt than any controller, defender, or tanker that has a decent grasp of how to use their powers effectively. I really don't see the problem with alpha strikes, either, to be honest. Yes, they do massive amounts of damage.. but in a sense, they need to do that. If a blaster alpha strikes a pack of mobs even two of them live through that, the blaster is dead. The assault rifle's 9th primary power is Full Auto. It deals out massive damage over time . When they activate that power, they have to stand there for several seconds. If a few mobs get close enough during that time.. again, dead blaster.
The other large issue here is this: People need to spend less time worrying about what other peoples' heros can do. If you play an archetype and enjoy playing that archetype, all good. I don't care if a blaster can stealth his/her way into the middle of a dozen +10 bosses and alpha strike them into dust! If they can do that and are happy to be able to play that way, it's none of my concern. If the abilities of another archetype are somehow ruining your enjoyment of the game, that is your problem, not theirs. Concentrate on your character and your gameplay, and you'll enjoy it a lot more.
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Quoting the entire previous post, because, this just NEEDS to be emphasised that much!!!!!
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I've tried out the increased HP mobs on test and have come to this conclusion: Increased mob HP doesn't make the fight harder, it only makes the fight longer.
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False. No matter which way you slice it, a longer fight means using more endurance and giving the enemy more opportunity to damage you. That makes the fight harder.
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I've tried out the increased HP mobs on test and have come to this conclusion: Increased mob HP doesn't make the fight harder, it only makes the fight longer.
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False. No matter which way you slice it, a longer fight means using more endurance and giving the enemy more opportunity to damage you. That makes the fight harder.
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Indeed, and Statesman has said he want to make the game harder. I don't think the current difficulty is hard at all. Issue 3 is certainly "harder" but I don't find it too hard. Of course I am a mighty Electric/Energy blaster so your results may vary. Yes, if your character was on the marginal level of play this may make the game too hard. If not it shouldn't ruin it. If anything it may make the controllers and defenders have less need of soloing, as the marginal tanks and blasters now need to team with them to gain respectable experience. Hurrah for us all!
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The other large issue here is this: People need to spend less time worrying about what other peoples' heros can do. If you play an archetype and enjoy playing that archetype, all good. I don't care if a blaster can stealth his/her way into the middle of a dozen +10 bosses and alpha strike them into dust! If they can do that and are happy to be able to play that way, it's none of my concern. If the abilities of another archetype are somehow ruining your enjoyment of the game, that is your problem, not theirs. Concentrate on your character and your gameplay, and you'll enjoy it a lot more.
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Normally you'd be right, but since the devs obviously think it's a problem, they're implimenting changes that negatively effect us all. Several of my characters will not be able to solo at all once this goes live, and that bothers me. By implementing changes that effect every AT to solve the imbalance of one, they have made it my concern. Normally I wouldn't really care.
If Alpha strikes are the apparent problem, there are other ways to deal with them rather than nerfing us all. This is a concern of the Devs, not a concern of ours. Please spare us your contempt.
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I'm just about to leave to catch a flight back to the West Coast...
Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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Statesman, please, realize that this isn't an AT specific issue. The issue is that Single Target attacks are dramatically less efficient compared to AoE and cone attacks. The goal of this change in hitpoints was to solve the AoE imbalances, yet you are only considering solving it for 3 of the 5 ATs?
For example, Fireball does slightly less damage than Fire Blast, yet it does it in a HUGE radius, and for only a little over twice the endurance. Haymaker vs. Foot Stomp, Lunge Vs. Spine Burst, Slash Vs. Slice, they are all like this, the only time a single target attack is better is if you are only facing two or less foes, it isn't much better, and that only happens when you are soloing.
Please, raise single target damage and/or lower single target endurance across the board. Single Target Blasters (Energy, Electric, Ice) and Scrappers (MA, DM) are dwarfed by their AoE counterparts, and many of the AoE sets have single target attacks (Flares, Barb Swipe) that are skipped due to their massive DPS and DPE inefficiency (sometimes compounded by animation length imbalance), so please don't leave them out.
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LadyMage,
I believe your thinking is spot on. I love your idea about AoE drop-off with range. Full damge at the center of an explosion, half damage at the edges, with a gradient in-between. Cones would work similarly (and this might increase the desire for cone range increases). The only issue would be whether the server can accurately keep position location. I assume it can, since it already can keep track of whether players are in various ranges of other centered powers.
Nice Idea! AoE has crazy damage in the center or near the start of the cone, decent damage at the fringe, and decent between. Adjust percentages to taste. Nothing else would have to change. A fire blaster could still nuke the heck out of small groups but would have to be more careful on big groups.
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