States: Will you be true to your word?
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2004-11-30 06:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
This will probably garner me a big flaming response, but here it goes, (and if this is already implemented, I apologize):
Use the datamining and other records to see how quickly different AT's and builds are leveling. Based upon this, and a lot of playtesting, adjust the necessary XP to level accordingly.
Thus, a defender soloing blues and whites would level at approximately the same pace as a scrapper soloing, say, whites and yellows, (just as an example).
Now I see how this could be circumvented by having a scrapper/blaster kill reds, oranges, etc, could level defenders really quickly, so some grouping adjustment for XP would have to be taken into account.
What I am getting at is making it so that all the AT's can level at a similar rate, while not removing one AT's penchant for soloing, (i.e. what strength of enemy they can successfully fight)
Go ahead... comment, criticize, but make a suggestion that is better, not just an attack!
[ QUOTE ]
This will probably garner me a big flaming response, but here it goes, (and if this is already implemented, I apologize):
Use the datamining and other records to see how quickly different AT's and builds are leveling. Based upon this, and a lot of playtesting, adjust the necessary XP to level accordingly.
Thus, a defender soloing blues and whites would level at approximately the same pace as a scrapper soloing, say, whites and yellows, (just as an example).
Now I see how this could be circumvented by having a scrapper/blaster kill reds, oranges, etc, could level defenders really quickly, so some grouping adjustment for XP would have to be taken into account.
What I am getting at is making it so that all the AT's can level at a similar rate, while not removing one AT's penchant for soloing, (i.e. what strength of enemy they can successfully fight)
Go ahead... comment, criticize, but make a suggestion that is better, not just an attack!
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I see where u are coming from and is a very good suggestion. However this would be diffficult to implement in a balanced way and would cause even more debate and arguments on tweaking the various XP rates on the forum.
I think adjusting the amount of XP a AT gets to balance the levelling is not a bad idea. That said overall I think the problem has someone mentioned is that for some reason the DEVs have come to the conclusion that Alpha Strikes are overpowered. Therefore I think they need to look into why they think they are overpowered and rework that.
Here is an idea to fix AoEs. Just a suggestion but here goes.
Think of AoE dmg as a bomb or mine. Now everything in the bombs radius doesnt get completely destroyed some times u can be close unscathed if u were say right next to the bomb in rare cases (ears maybe ringing).
So.... Lets say u hit 100% of mobs with ur accuracy (which I think there is an accuracy cap of 90 or 95% not sure sorry)
Now we have some statistical weighted roll for each mob to take full or partial damage. so 75% to 95% of mobs take full dmg from the AoE and fall over and die.
The other 25% to 5% of MObs take 1/2 to 3/4s dmg.
What this does is annihilates a large portion of the Mobs as a lvl 32 Skill for a blaster is meant to do. But it leaves a mess for the Blaster to clean up. 2nd part of this fix is to make mobs chase the AoEr for a longer period of time. so that even if a SS blaster runs a mile away eventually that mob is going to chase him down. so the Blaster will either have to zone out / kill the mob / or tactically run away for health and come back for the mob b4 it gets him. This costs the blaster extra time and endurance which will slow down his progression by Alpha Strike AoEs.
My main is a scrapper (though I have alts of all ATs).
Frankly, you could increase minion HP and damage by 100% and it wouldn't significantly effect my play.
It would take a few extra swings, sure. But it wouldn't ever change the outcome, because minions remain no threat whatsoever while their accuracy is so low.
Currently I can easily take on 20-30 white minions if I want to, but never, in practice, have any reason to take on more than 10.
In the brave new world on test, 10 minions would be as hard as about 13 of the minions currently on live. Practical effect on outcome of battle = zero.
I agree with those who say the wrong change has been made. Minion accuracy should get a boost instead of HP. That would increase the threat to my scrapper, but not have any effect on controller soloing (since it involves holding the mobs), or be too big a deal to debuff/buff equipped defenders, or tanks with uber defences.
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Frankly, you could increase minion HP and damage by 100% and it wouldn't significantly effect my play.
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But I bet the big boost to boss HP and damage will slow you down a little!
Yes, if it was as high as the 100% I mentioned in my post.
Personally, I doubt they need to do much to bosses if they were to fix the minions that come along with the bosses.
The reason bosses are a threat is primarily their already reasonable accuracy.
The problem the devs are trying to address is all about accuracy.
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The problem the devs are trying to address is all about accuracy.
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Yes, because otherwise SR scrappers would be too powerful.
</sarcasm>
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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Please, raise single target damage and/or lower single target endurance across the board. Single Target Blasters (Energy, Electric, Ice) and Scrappers (MA, DM) are dwarfed by their AoE counterparts, and many of the AoE sets have single target attacks (Flares, Barb Swipe) that are skipped due to their massive DPS and DPE inefficiency (sometimes compounded by animation length imbalance), so please don't leave them out.
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On another note, how does this solve the AoE power problem?
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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The problem the devs are trying to address is all about accuracy.
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Yes, because otherwise SR scrappers would be too powerful.
</sarcasm>
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In cases where SR scrappers hit the cap, an acc increase would affect SR less than any other set.
In cases where SR scrappers do not, (ie. when not using elude) the disproportionate effect is easy to cancel out by calculating the relatively greater reduction in survival time and adding the delta to low end SR scrappper defence powers.
Low-mid SR scrappers need a small boost anyway.
But lets face it, the vast majority of scrappers today are regen and invul.
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Here is an idea to fix AoEs. Just a suggestion but here goes.
Think of AoE dmg as a bomb or mine. Now everything in the bombs radius doesnt get completely destroyed some times u can be close unscathed if u were say right next to the bomb in rare cases (ears maybe ringing).
So.... Lets say u hit 100% of mobs with ur accuracy (which I think there is an accuracy cap of 90 or 95% not sure sorry)
Now we have some statistical weighted roll for each mob to take full or partial damage. so 75% to 95% of mobs take full dmg from the AoE and fall over and die.
The other 25% to 5% of MObs take 1/2 to 3/4s dmg.
What this does is annihilates a large portion of the Mobs as a lvl 32 Skill for a blaster is meant to do. But it leaves a mess for the Blaster to clean up. 2nd part of this fix is to make mobs chase the AoEr for a longer period of time. so that even if a SS blaster runs a mile away eventually that mob is going to chase him down. so the Blaster will either have to zone out / kill the mob / or tactically run away for health and come back for the mob b4 it gets him. This costs the blaster extra time and endurance which will slow down his progression by Alpha Strike AoEs.
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The problem with this idea is that the alpha strikes we are talking about cause the blaster to be disoriented for a little while after the attack and not recharge end. This means that unless I misunderstand the way things work. No blaster can speed away from anybody that survives his Alpha Strike. This is why some Blasters are wondering why people feel the alpha strikes are overpowered. Remember a blaster is a Glass Canon especially after using his alpha strike if mobs survive he is almost guartneed to be dying in the next few seconds.
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This will probably garner me a big flaming response, but here it goes, (and if this is already implemented, I apologize):
Use the datamining and other records to see how quickly different AT's and builds are leveling. Based upon this, and a lot of playtesting, adjust the necessary XP to level accordingly.
Thus, a defender soloing blues and whites would level at approximately the same pace as a scrapper soloing, say, whites and yellows, (just as an example).
Now I see how this could be circumvented by having a scrapper/blaster kill reds, oranges, etc, could level defenders really quickly, so some grouping adjustment for XP would have to be taken into account.
What I am getting at is making it so that all the AT's can level at a similar rate, while not removing one AT's penchant for soloing, (i.e. what strength of enemy they can successfully fight)
Go ahead... comment, criticize, but make a suggestion that is better, not just an attack!
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You'd have to do it by build, and again by level. A radiation defender solos completely different mobs than an Empathy defender. A level 17 illusion controller hunts different cons than a 19 illusion controller and different cons than a 33 illusion controller. A 33 mind controller solos different things than a 33 fire controller. A fire/dev or fire/NRG blaster hunts completely different fodder to a electric blaster.
That would take hundreds of hours of play testing, and wouldn't take into account people who don't know what they're doing in building their toon, grouping, roleplayers who don't take potentially useful skills for concept reasons....what a pain in the ....
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Here is an idea to fix AoEs. Just a suggestion but here goes.
Think of AoE dmg as a bomb or mine. Now everything in the bombs radius doesnt get completely destroyed some times u can be close unscathed if u were say right next to the bomb in rare cases (ears maybe ringing).
So.... Lets say u hit 100% of mobs with ur accuracy (which I think there is an accuracy cap of 90 or 95% not sure sorry)
Now we have some statistical weighted roll for each mob to take full or partial damage. so 75% to 95% of mobs take full dmg from the AoE and fall over and die.
The other 25% to 5% of MObs take 1/2 to 3/4s dmg.
What this does is annihilates a large portion of the Mobs as a lvl 32 Skill for a blaster is meant to do. But it leaves a mess for the Blaster to clean up. 2nd part of this fix is to make mobs chase the AoEr for a longer period of time. so that even if a SS blaster runs a mile away eventually that mob is going to chase him down. so the Blaster will either have to zone out / kill the mob / or tactically run away for health and come back for the mob b4 it gets him. This costs the blaster extra time and endurance which will slow down his progression by Alpha Strike AoEs.
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The problem with this idea is that the alpha strikes we are talking about cause the blaster to be disoriented for a little while after the attack and not recharge end. This means that unless I misunderstand the way things work. No blaster can speed away from anybody that survives his Alpha Strike. This is why some Blasters are wondering why people feel the alpha strikes are overpowered. Remember a blaster is a Glass Canon especially after using his alpha strike if mobs survive he is almost guartneed to be dying in the next few seconds.
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Actually you're wrong. The 32 Alpha strikes do not disorient. And the post you quoted is actually the way the alpha strikes work now. There are three ticks of damage on nova and Psychic wail that I've seen, each with their own to hit chance, that checks against all mobs in the area. Thus sometimes someone standing in the middle of it goes completely unscathed, and others are only somewhat hurt.
And while you don't naturally recover end, you can pop a blue and keep blasting. And any end regen powers that were on you will continue to work (recovery aura, Adrenaline Boost, Speed Boost, accelerate metabolism)
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Please, raise single target damage and/or lower single target endurance across the board. Single Target Blasters (Energy, Electric, Ice) and Scrappers (MA, DM) are dwarfed by their AoE counterparts, and many of the AoE sets have single target attacks (Flares, Barb Swipe) that are skipped due to their massive DPS and DPE inefficiency (sometimes compounded by animation length imbalance), so please don't leave them out.
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On another note, how does this solve the AoE power problem?
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If minion hitpoints go up (as they are), and single target damage and/or endurance go up, it shrinks the gap between single target DPS and/or DPE and that of AoEs.
If you are referring to the "level 32 Blaster AoEs can kill everything before it has a reasonable shot at retaliating" problem, It doesn't address those issues at all unless minion hps are raised to the point that you cannot one shot them with these insanely damaging powers, which would be really absurd.
My issue is with single target vs normal AoE/Cone balance, which can easily be fixed by raising villain hps and increasing single target DPS and/or DPE (though it would be simpler and easier to just lower the AoE/Cone DPS and/or DPE).
The Nova/Inferno/Thunderous Blast issue is a different issue altogether, which raising minion hps by 28% will not even come close to solving. You would need to change the purpose of these powers (kill everything in a 15' radius instantly) to solve this problem.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Please, raise single target damage and/or lower single target endurance across the board. Single Target Blasters (Energy, Electric, Ice) and Scrappers (MA, DM) are dwarfed by their AoE counterparts, and many of the AoE sets have single target attacks (Flares, Barb Swipe) that are skipped due to their massive DPS and DPE inefficiency (sometimes compounded by animation length imbalance), so please don't leave them out.
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On another note, how does this solve the AoE power problem?
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If minion hitpoints go up (as they are), and single target damage and/or endurance go up, it shrinks the gap between single target DPS and/or DPE and that of AoEs.
If you are referring to the "level 32 Blaster AoEs can kill everything before it has a reasonable shot at retaliating" problem, It doesn't address those issues at all unless minion hps are raised to the point that you cannot one shot them with these insanely damaging powers, which would be really absurd.
My issue is with single target vs normal AoE/Cone balance, which can easily be fixed by raising villain hps and increasing single target DPS and/or DPE (though it would be simpler and easier to just lower the AoE/Cone DPS and/or DPE).
The Nova/Inferno/Thunderous Blast issue is a different issue altogether, which raising minion hps by 28% will not even come close to solving. You would need to change the purpose of these powers (kill everything in a 15' radius instantly) to solve this problem.
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I'm an advocate for getting rid of those powers altogether in exchange for something that does wide spread damage but dosen't drain the blaster of endurance... or some sort of defensive or control based power. I don't see how you can "fix" these powers without making them useless. And If it's going to be useless don't waste peoples lv32 power choice. I already had the awesome choice of hot-feet at lv38. don't give me two worthless finals in the same build.
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The Nova/Inferno/Thunderous Blast issue is a different issue altogether, which raising minion hps by 28% will not even come close to solving. You would need to change the purpose of these powers (kill everything in a 15' radius instantly) to solve this problem.
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I'm an advocate for getting rid of those powers altogether in exchange for something that does wide spread damage but dosen't drain the blaster of endurance... or some sort of defensive or control based power. I don't see how you can "fix" these powers without making them useless.
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I agree. Definately eliminate the endurance drain on these powers for one thing, "drawbacks" just result in people doing everything they can to avoid being affected by them, to the point that they don't balance the power provided.
Thunderous blast would be fine as simply a high damage ranged AoE, maybe 2.5 times the total damage/endurance/recharge of Ball Lightning.
You can't really just do that with Nova and Inferno without making them ranged as well, and I like the Nova animation, effect, and concept. I would like Inferno if it looked cool and explosive instead of just like combustion (heck, just use the fireball graphic centered on the character).
So, maybe these two powers should do similar damage to the adjusted Thunderous Blast, but have some controlling aspects to them so you can get back out after using them. I love the Knockback on Nova, but lets face it, the way the game currently is, knockback on AoEs just makes your teammates angry if it also doesn't kill them outright. Maybe Nova should knock down and have like a 2-3 second disorient (wish they'd fix the freaking superspeed on disorients), and Inferno should leave a 2-3 second copy of Bonfire in the spot that knocks them down (to simulate rolling around trying to put out the fire). Their animations could stand to be cut a tad as well, melee range attacks should have lower animations than ranged ones, since they put you at more risk, I'd cut them by 1/3.
Many people want Blizzard to be adjusted anyway, so maybe you make it a very high damage version of Ice Storm, that only lasts a few seconds, to ensure that those near the edges take about 75% the damage of the other final powers, but those near the center take about 125%. Just so it has a different feel, and a slightly different purpose than the others.
Full Auto will probably be just right after the hitpoint increase, though it's animation could stand to be cut by 1/3 if it won't be killing most even-con minions before they can get into melee with you like it does now.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
To refresh, when asked about the problems defenders controllers might have with increased mob HPs, Statesman replied-
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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!
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Still waiting to hear details of the "oomph", since boss HPs are definitely up on test.
unless the words coming out of statesman's mouth are: "we're rolling back the hp & xp increase on bosses" I doubt you are going to hear any more on this issue.
How about blasters? As it is, my elec/elec blaster has a hard enough time with bosses, dying far too often for my tastes.
You didn't hit the uber-drive button on your blaster? Its right next to the god mode button you use for scrappers. You just have to unlock the developer mode and then............ hey wait a minute, I promised the devs I would never tell anyone how the QA team plays the game.
Well, I guess we know now, the answer to the question in the original post is "no". Issue 3 is live, boss hps are ridiculous (mainly because of the increased healing rate), and defenders/controllers got nothing.
Huh. Even Statesman posting "Meh, I changed my mind" would show a certain level of integrity.
Here's the official final word, we all "misunderstood" what Statesman meant.
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Actually, what I said was that if mob hp, etc. was boosted, we'd give Defenders and Controllers some oomph. That means ALL mob hp, damage. Only bosses, AV's and monsters were affected.
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Of course, it's bosses that give defenders/controllers the most trouble.
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I've tried out the increased HP mobs on test and have come to this conclusion: Increased mob HP doesn't make the fight harder, it only makes the fight longer.
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False. No matter which way you slice it, a longer fight means using more endurance and giving the enemy more opportunity to damage you. That makes the fight harder.
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Indeed, and Statesman has said he want to make the game harder. I don't think the current difficulty is hard at all. Issue 3 is certainly "harder" but I don't find it too hard. Of course I am a mighty Electric/Energy blaster so your results may vary. Yes, if your character was on the marginal level of play this may make the game too hard. If not it shouldn't ruin it. If anything it may make the controllers and defenders have less need of soloing, as the marginal tanks and blasters now need to team with them to gain respectable experience. Hurrah for us all!
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BS. people will still solo. because they WANT to solo. Amp the difficulty up too far and those people will just reroll soloing builds or quit the game. Forced teaming won't work. This game isn't good enough for me or anyone I know to stand around and Spam LFT. I know some people like to team and that's fine. But I want to do both. That's why even my defender is built with soloing in mind. And I'm not going to lower myself to hunting blues and missing mission content. Make this game an unplayable grind and sadly I'm going to have to pack it in.
And btw... flying squids ain't gonna save the game. They're fine... but I want to take one of each archetypes to 50. I'm obsessive like that. Make that impossible and theres nothing left in this game for me.