States: Will you be true to your word?
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2004-11-30 06:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The changes are currently on the test centre, the enemies which are level 30+ have seen a dramatic increase to both their HP and the damage they can cause. I'd say its an increase of around 50% more damage and around 75% more health. The exp has also increased from typically around 160 for a level 33 white con to around 230 now for the same enemy.
Does this negatively impact the controllers soloing? Yes, however the AT was never intended to solo very well so nothing has really changed beyond the original design brief.
While there would be some changes to adjust to with such a change, I don't think it will be as negative as implied. My primary is a scrapper, but I've been playing more and more of my defender alt lately. One thing I've noticed is that with my defender, I have to be much more selective with my mobs. Can I solo the same mob make-ups and levels as my scrapper? Hardly. However, if I adjust to the next con level down, I can solo quite fine. Sure the xp isn't the same, and it takes a bit longer, but I can solo quite easily.
I also find that with the defender, the mob cons are more in line with what the rulebook indicates they should be for toughness. 3 white cons, my scrapper would go through them like a hot knife through butter. With my defender, it's a hard fight. If the hps increase (along with xp) then it will simply be a matter of adjust to it. If the whtie cons are too tough, then start hitting the blues instead. Or smaller groups of white cons. With missions, the -1 lvl for soloing was extremely easy for my scrapper. For my defender it's just right.
The point is, you _can_ solo with any class in the game. Providing you can adapt or adjust to the circumstances. The problem is, many expect to be able to have a Defender or Controller solo at the same level cons as a scrapper or tanker. Apples and oranges, in my book.
Narcissus is right.
Now, I know the HP/XP increase is still in test mode and data mining needs to be done - but could a red name speak up and let us know what the planned "oomph" is? States has already said that the increased Tanker damage was a failure - so what IS the oomph? And how will it help us solo.
Of course controllers/tankers are worse soloers. That's not relevant. These ATs are already at or below the 1 hero/3 even con minion standard. With the new HPs some more oomph is a must to avoid forced grouping for "support ATs". Is it just more damage? Is that only for Tanks and Controllers? Answers are needed before the changes go live.
As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game. The two ATs effected directly are defenders and tankers, while tanks may have the HPs to stay alive against the harder hitting mobs, defenders won't and only dark defenders have pets to get between them and mobs. Also update #2 saw an decrease in endurance costs for defender/tanker attacks. With an increase in mob HPs there was no re-adjustment in endurance costs. So as far as endurance goes these two ATs are back at square 1.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
In the Tanker forum Statesman said this
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So I promised action. Well, some playtesting quickly showed that any adjustment to damage meant that the Tanker quickly outshined every other Archetype. We came up with a number of balancing strategies, but in the end, we found that if we boosted the damage, we'd need to turn the Tankers resistances down. That meant making a Tanker a Scrapper.
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Basically I read that as saying "No change for Tanks". I also expect that if they aren't going to increase Tanker damage they they aren't going to touch Defender or Controller damage either.
Since I though the pace of play after Issue #2 was just right I am extremely disappointed. I've done a reasonable amount of testing on the Test Room server and for my tank the game has been made a lot slower.
The basic hit point seems to be 28%. Basic xp increase 50%
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Hopefully Statesman addresses this, as he says that tankers are currently in his crosshairs. I'd hope that at the very least we'd get a damage increase somewhat akin to the HP increase (It's not like tanks are uber soloers or something) but we're not seeing it because they're working on another system for increasing tank damage.
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but we're not seeing it because they're working on another system for increasing tank damage.
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Wrong.
Statesman has gone on the record saying that the "Increased Damage System" or IDS if you like 
was abandoned as it would make Tankers too powerful.
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The point is, you _can_ solo with any class in the game. Providing you can adapt or adjust to the circumstances. The problem is, many expect to be able to have a Defender or Controller solo at the same level cons as a scrapper or tanker. Apples and oranges, in my book.
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Sounds just dandy if you like Street Grinding. Problem here is the Hit Point increase forces Controllers, Defenders and to an extent, Tankers to hunt lower con enemies. However the new fancy schmancy Mission Slider doesn't allow for a decrease in difficulty. You start at Hard boiled (default standard diff) and can raise it to Invincible +2 to +3 level increase.
What this means is that those same above classes will have even MORE difficulty doing missions from their contacts and may have to resort to Street Grinding as an alternative. This forces those classes to either group up (forced grouping) or abandone 80% of the game content due to the new hitpoint system. 
Sigh..
My greatest concern is ENDURANCE. If the health pool for minions is upped then natural recovery needs to be upped. Taking longer to damage something is not that bad. It's not having anything left TO DAMAGE BY that's the problem. I think they will be testing this for quite some time, and I hope they don't try to rush it in issue 3. Issue 3 has enough goodies. We don't need to top off the cake with a rotten cherry.
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In the Tanker forum Statesman said this
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So I promised action. Well, some playtesting quickly showed that any adjustment to damage meant that the Tanker quickly outshined every other Archetype. We came up with a number of balancing strategies, but in the end, we found that if we boosted the damage, we'd need to turn the Tankers resistances down. That meant making a Tanker a Scrapper.
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Basically I read that as saying "No change for Tanks". I also expect that if they aren't going to increase Tanker damage they they aren't going to touch Defender or Controller damage either.
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Statesman announced that the tanker modification and fixes (whatever they are) have a higher priority than issue 4. So, we'll see issue 3 and then the tanker fix, and then issue 4.
If you read enough of his comments in the Dev Digest, you get the whole picture. Most likely Tanker and Controller damage will go up some, just not dramatically. The problem you have is that some controllers and tankers do more damage than others. Fire tankers and controllers seem to break the mold when it comes to damage for the AT, and as long as there are those examples in the set, you won't see a dramatic change throughout the entire set. I have a mind controller that I play, and I enjoy, despite the knowledge that he's not going to have a pack of mental monkeys (or whatever) doing all the killing for me in his 30's. But I knew that coming in when I made the character, that he wouldn't be a great solo character. 
I'm just about to leave to catch a flight back to the West Coast...
Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
I don't expect an answer form States on this one.
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I don't expect an answer form States on this one.
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I do.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
What about defenders?
My empath defender is a marginal soloer at best, but since I respec-ed her, she's been able to. Since that respec, she's gotten several times more of the story arcs done than previously, and has levelled at a far more respectable rate. I'm actually getting to see the late game content. I won't tell you how many arcs I missed before her respec.
Even now on live she has to run for help if the boss happens to be +1, or something that can mez. Or worse, an AV. With an increase in mob HP without a similar increase in her damage, I fear she's going to be relegated back to unsoloable.
I'm not asking to solo reds or purples. If I have to continue as I have been and ask for help with mezzers and red bosses, so be it. But soloing whites shouldn't be beyond an empath defender with a build balanced for support and offense. And that's what I fear is coming.
Edit: Thanks Statesman. I'm glad to hear this is still on the radar.
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As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game.
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Don't mean to pick on this one too much, not all Controllers have pets, and they are not all equal in Damage per second either, I had a quick play on the test server and those Rikti Bosses sure were tough, but because of the 'controlling' factor in some aspect you are correct, it was still relatively risk-free, will just take a long time, would love to hear some experiences from a Mind/Grav/Ice Controller.
If you think things can't get any worse, it's probably because you lack sufficient imagination
Kenshin - lvl50 Scrapper Katana/SR
Kaigame - lvl50 Controller Earth/Emp
Mayfair - Lvl50 Defender Kinetic/Psy
Kai's Guide to Earth Controlling **Old**
With missions I'd like to see if it is being solo'd, that consideration be given of the class type when generating mobs. Instead of a defender getting the same mobs that a scrapper would be getting, perhaps lessen the number or rank of the mobs for the support classes. Or at least to whatever level the data mining would support.
Thanks. Even when I'm worried and frustrated, I do thank you for taking the time.
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
*Posted in Positron's thread about the Difficulty slider*
Here's a random thought (pardons if it has been mentioned):
Is it possible to raise the HP/Exp/Damage of minions on the streets *only* while leaving mobs in missions as they currently are?
With the current implementation of this "slider", my idea would work. People can amp up the difficulty in the mission based on the supposed "easiness" if they desire (based on current mob difficulty), there would be NO CHANGE for any AT currently having trouble with missions (since the Devs seem opposed to the CHOICE of slightly easier), and only street sweeping (which should be harder due to the larger mob groups) would actually require tactics and the occasional grouping for some players.
Would require the players to realize this difference, and play as needed with that knowledge. Can even be incorporated story-wise by explaining the differences as something along the lines of: While outside, mobs must be more vigilant (stronger) in fighting off heroes and opposing factions but while inside, they feel more secure and are caught off guard by the invading hereoes?
Comments?
I've already forgotten about most of you
An interesting idea, but I'd have to disagree with it due to one point. If we started making the same color con's having different strengths, it could be a problem and a lot of complaints. If a white conned freakshow smasher (for example) has a certain lvl of hp's in a mission, then it should be the same on the street, not more.
That's why I have the comment about the story-driven reason for this change. There has to be a distinction somewhere; either same color mobs have differen't attributes between the streets and missions, or street mobs will have to have different colors than mission mobs.
I feel the story-driven aspect is an easy compromise that fits in well.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
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I wonder about the changes to Tank Taunt and PP Provoke. Those are not in dispute, so they should be the first to go in.
Right?
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*Posted in Positron's thread about the Difficulty slider*
Here's a random thought (pardons if it has been mentioned):
Is it possible to raise the HP/Exp/Damage of minions on the streets *only* while leaving mobs in missions as they currently are?
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Wow. That's a good idea.
I can't think of any negatives associated with that idea (assuming that increased mob difficulty is a given).
The only trick would be making sure the con is accurate. If you fight red con 36's for 30 minutes in your mission, then come outside and decide to take on some red con 36's outside, but WHOOPS! These red cons are 50% tougher than the other red cons.
This is not a bad thing. Making the con system accurate would be nice.
That's the rub. Would probably have to tweak the color con system somehow to allow this so you can have 2 different sets of the same mob.
Ambushes would have to be considered "mission based" mobs and not "street based" mobs as well.
The rest is left up to the players realizing this. And of course, this shouldn't really take affect for mobs under whatever level the actual change is supposed to affect.
I've already forgotten about most of you
A while ago when the possibility for a mob hitpoint increase were first brought up, many Controllers, Tankers, and Defenders expressed concern over how this might hurt their ability to solo or erm... "arrest".
Statesman made the following two comments:
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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?
[/ QUOTE ]We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!
Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.
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Increasing hit points on enemiesÂ….StatesMan no disrespect but that won't help a damned thing.It'll just make it all the harder for tanks to actually kill things.
[/ QUOTE ]True. Very true. That's why IF we did that, we'll also be affecting Tanker damage so that he still can keep up.
I think every Archetype should be able to solo. Can't find a team? Feel like just doing something on your own? The reason doesn't matter - just 'cause you're soloing doesn't mean that you should be prevented from enjoying the game. I'm keenly aware that increasing hit points WOULD impact Tankers (and for that matter Controllers) negatively.
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In the first post you insinuate some change (not necessarily damage) to positively increase the strength of controllers/defenders with the "new" mobs.
In the second post you indirectly reference Controllers after speaking about Tankers issues/damage with the new mob hitpoint increase. You state that you are aware that this will negatively impact controllers.
My question is simple: Are these changes still in the works, or were they passed over. If they were passed over, why did you choose to do so after stating that you saw the change as having a negative impact on Controllers.