States: Will you be true to your word?
By
Adam7,
Posted on: 2004-11-30 06:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm also curious how much longer Stone Tankers and Dark Armor scrappers will have to wait for stackable armors. The players I know who use these power sets are at a disadvantage throughout their careers, but most especially in the 40+ portion of the game. It's especially hard to tolerate these broken power sets when I heard that Kheldians already have stackable armor. This seems like a case of misplaced priorities to me. Any ETA on this fix hitting the test server? I would also like to hear why stackable armors were first addressed in the epic ATs rather than the existing ones that we all have access to.
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*Posted in Positron's thread about the Difficulty slider*
Here's a random thought (pardons if it has been mentioned):
Is it possible to raise the HP/Exp/Damage of minions on the streets *only* while leaving mobs in missions as they currently are?
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I disagree completely. Street mobs are perfect as they are. If they are too easy for you go to a hazard zone. Street mobs can't just be for teams and power solo builds. Any build should be able to take down smaller street mobs.
Now if you are one of the people going through Steel Canyon with a 6-8 person team, I can understand why you think the mobs are too easy, but that is not how the game is designed to be played. City zones are intended for 1-3 character teams, beyond that you are expected to go to a Hazard zone.
The current system works just fine. If you need harder fights go on a mission with your slider all the way up.
Actually the slider will make the team leader's job a lot harder. Up till now you judged which missions were good for your team by the character's level and the relative level of your team. Usually only taking missions from highest level players. Now if you take a mission from the highest level player if he has slider all the way up your team may not have a chance, but if slider is down all the way it may be too easy.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Personally I am wondering what advantage raising the HP's of all mobs does. It makes everything more difficult and yet the AE are still more powerful then the single target attacks. doesn't seem to accomplish anything really productive IMO.
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If we make any changes
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If? You stated that if you raised mob HPs, defenders/controllers would get a boost. Period.
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*Posted in Positron's thread about the Difficulty slider*
Here's a random thought (pardons if it has been mentioned):
Is it possible to raise the HP/Exp/Damage of minions on the streets *only* while leaving mobs in missions as they currently are?
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I disagree completely. Street mobs are perfect as they are. If they are too easy for you go to a hazard zone. Street mobs can't just be for teams and power solo builds. Any build should be able to take down smaller street mobs.
Now if you are one of the people going through Steel Canyon with a 6-8 person team, I can understand why you think the mobs are too easy, but that is not how the game is designed to be played. City zones are intended for 1-3 character teams, beyond that you are expected to go to a Hazard zone.
The current system works just fine. If you need harder fights go on a mission with your slider all the way up.
Actually the slider will make the team leader's job a lot harder. Up till now you judged which missions were good for your team by the character's level and the relative level of your team. Usually only taking missions from highest level players. Now if you take a mission from the highest level player if he has slider all the way up your team may not have a chance, but if slider is down all the way it may be too easy.
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You do realize that currently on TEST, *all* mobs starting at level 25(?) are increased in HP and Damage? This includes street settings as well as missions. The difficulty "slider" only allows you to increase mob level/amount which includes the increased HP/DMG....there is nothing to allow an "Issue 2" difficulty.
My idea would keep the status quo as of right now in missions only and have the devs increase the difficulty of spawns out in the world (which they already seem intent on doing). And it works in tandem with their version of a slider because you could still increase the difficulty of missions by ramping it up with more mobs/higher level mobs.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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The team value for AE vs single target attacks got DRAMATICALLY boosted if this goes live without a boost in damage or a significant end reduction for single target attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]I stated this weeks ago and got no reply.
It would make a lot more sense to just lower AoE damage and call it a day. But this "stealth nerf" they are going for is going to get single target blasters and scrappers too. I wasn't aware they needed any balancing.
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As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game.
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Don't mean to pick on this one too much, not all Controllers have pets, and they are not all equal in Damage per second either, I had a quick play on the test server and those Rikti Bosses sure were tough, but because of the 'controlling' factor in some aspect you are correct, it was still relatively risk-free, will just take a long time, would love to hear some experiences from a Mind/Grav/Ice Controller.
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True I guess when I first wrote my post I was thinking more of the fire and ill controllers. I almost forgot about Jack Frost and and the Earth turd pet. I guess I never see them around.
But as for Statesman, I think that update #3 HP increase directly negates the changes you made in update #2 as far as endurance costs for defenders/tankers
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Well I was in IP looking for how to spawn the Giant Oct with my lvl 25 Ice/Storm controler. I was going by TV when I saw 2 DE of my lvl. One Lt and a minon. So I thought, they have uped xp for some mob types because they are inatly harder. DE being one of them (I think).
So BoI Lt. Drop Ice. BoI minion, Rain Brawl, brawl, BoI. Rinse repeat.
Neather one ever got free from my BoIs. I had to use Rest to get End back about half way though (no CoB). The whole thing took 8-10 minutes (Rest was about halfway recharged).
Xp was good per mob (160 for the minion, 230 I think for the Lt) But it took 8-10 minutes!
Thats .8125 xp per second.
My Scrapper could have killed them in 8 seconds. Same with my blaster. Scrapper would have taken almost no damage or would heal it compleatly in the next 30 seconds. Same with the blaster.
So the Damage dealers can get 45 xp a second and my controler can get .8125 xp per second. In one hour giving 1/4 of that time taken up moving to the next mobs.
Damage Dealing ATs get 121,500 xp
((45 minutes * 60)*45xp)
VS.
Controler getting 2193 xp.
((45 minutes * 60)*.8125xp)
That does not count in that both my Scrapper and Blaster can take on +1s and some +2s in larger groups.
Both Tankers and Controlers (and in some extent Defenders) need to have their single target attacks do more damage.
Illusion controlers Spectral Wounds is about what ALL controlers single target Hold needs to do.
This would make it so we would still, never get close to a damage dealers damage output AND Illusion would still stay on top for the first 30 lvls of there life.
Right now on live the best way to kill groups of mobs is to heap on AoE attacks. By upping the mobs hit points you haven't changed that fact.. if anything you've re-enforced it. If you really want to address the AoE problem you need to either nerf the AoE attacks or up the hit points AND the effectiveness of the single target attacks. This was obvious before so I'm not sure why the AND part got lost.
This is especially true for those low damage single target attacks that the tanks and controllers have to depend on (especially mind controllers that get no pets, or any controller from levels 25 to 32). The increased hp regeneration due to those added hit points is going to be a nasty thing to overcome for a low damage dealer when facing an even level boss.
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We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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Statesman,
I've tried out the increased HP mobs on test and have come to this conclusion: Increased mob HP doesn't make the fight harder, it only makes the fight longer.
I wish that your team would attempt a more nuanced approach. I've suggested (and seem similar suggestions) giving every mob a small aura increasing the +RES and +DAM of each other mob in the area. Minions give other minions maybe +2% RES and DAM, Lieutenants give maybe a +4% RES and DAM, and Bosses give perhaps a +8% RES and DAM.
Take for example a group of 2 minions and a lieutenant. The minions would each have +6% RES and DAM and the natively strong lieutenant would have a +4% RES and DAM. Another example would be a group of 8 minions. Each minion would have a +14% RES and DAM.
Anyway, thanks for reading.
Corinna
Lady Deacon, 50 ill/ff
Cinder Imp, 50 fa/wm
and many more!
Hmmm.... That being the case, I wonder if my blaster should be able to heal himself like a defender. Or perhaps he should doe AoE holds like your controller. I don't post often so I am more than likely going to get the ole "shut-up" treatment.
If you want to deal damage... get a blaster or scrapper. If you not interested in that, get a defender/controller. 
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Hmmm.... That being the case, I wonder if my blaster should be able to heal himself like a defender. Or perhaps he should doe AoE holds like your controller. I don't post often so I am more than likely going to get the ole "shut-up" treatment.
If you want to deal damage... get a blaster or scrapper. If you not interested in that, get a defender/controller.
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Paying attention for teh win! They aren't asking for anything *near* scrapper/defender damage, they are talking about Statesman's statement agreeing that it will be necesaary to give controllers/defenders some sort of boost to maintain their viabilitywith rhe increased mob HPs.
I am genuinely confused, please forgive my ignorance. What is the reason they are raising the bad guys health? I thought I read, a while ago, that it may be a solution to what was being called "the AoE problem". Is this still the rationale behind the change?
Back when I read it, I always just assumed this would be one component of many changes, and it made some sense. Now, if this is the only change, it doesn't really make much sense at all. As far as I can tell it only solves one smallish design flaw; that being the Alpha strike AoE.
The price tag on fixing that one aspect of AoE's seems fairly high concidering that it will amplify the discrepancy between AoE and single target in normal usage. It will virtually undo the stamina changes for Tanks and Defenders. It will make the solo abilities of 3 of the AT's a lot weaker.
Am I off here? Was there another reason for this beside the AoE alpha strikes? Is this also some move towards the 3 whites per hero ideal?
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While there would be some changes to adjust to with such a change, I don't think it will be as negative as implied. My primary is a scrapper, but I've been playing more and more of my defender alt lately. One thing I've noticed is that with my defender, I have to be much more selective with my mobs. Can I solo the same mob make-ups and levels as my scrapper? Hardly. However, if I adjust to the next con level down, I can solo quite fine. Sure the xp isn't the same, and it takes a bit longer, but I can solo quite easily.
I also find that with the defender, the mob cons are more in line with what the rulebook indicates they should be for toughness. 3 white cons, my scrapper would go through them like a hot knife through butter. With my defender, it's a hard fight. If the hps increase (along with xp) then it will simply be a matter of adjust to it. If the whtie cons are too tough, then start hitting the blues instead. Or smaller groups of white cons. With missions, the -1 lvl for soloing was extremely easy for my scrapper. For my defender it's just right.
The point is, you _can_ solo with any class in the game. Providing you can adapt or adjust to the circumstances. The problem is, many expect to be able to have a Defender or Controller solo at the same level cons as a scrapper or tanker. Apples and oranges, in my book.
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That fine and great. For Mob Hunting. You don't get to CHOOSE who you fight in a mission. If they screw up the missions so you HAVE to play a scrapper to solo ANY missions, which is the case on the test server, why would anyone ever what to play anything else? And they claim to be worried about "balance"? How balanced is it going to be when noone wants to play other AT's? 
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If you really want to address the AoE problem you need to... nerf the AoE attacks .
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I think I speak for most players when I say this should NEVER be a suggestion. First, it's just wrong to call for another AT to get weakened in any way just because you don't like it, are jealous of its success, can't think of a better way, and so on. Second, nerfs have a snowball effect. If you start the process by calling for nerfs on one class, then you will soon find most classes getting nerfed to "balance."
This is why I support the HP increase for minions. It doesn't make the hero weaker, it just makes enemies a little tougher. I understand why the devs want to do this (to remove the City of Blasters mentality with overwhelming AoE attacks), and I think avoiding the simple nerf approach is the better of the two options.
I must admit though, I hope things are not as bad as people are saying. Controllers and Defenders are going to need something. As for tankers, I've ALWAYS said that they need an increase in damage, and this new change just reinforces that need.
As I've said many times before I have faith in this dev team and I'm sure they will work something out to help all ATs fit in with the new minion increase.
Sorry for the rambling post, I'm a bit tired. 
Shrug. I soloed missions with +1 Nemsis and +1 Rik with my defender yesterday. Tough yes, impossible no, and no deaths. It just took time to devise the right tactics for each type of baddie, for best effect.
You get 3 open slots for missions, you yes you can choose. Think one mission is too tough at the moment? Keep it until after you level and try again. No one says you _have_ to do every single mission the moment you get it.
I'll try to be short.
I play a Invul/SS tank, and the way I've respecd my character, I am basically a Provoke machine. I use taunt and provoke like my main attacks. I also have Punch, Haymaker, and knockout blow as my main 3 damage attacks.
I rarely go crazy with attacking in a fight, because I'm more focused on keeping things on me, and off my team mates. Uping HP on mobs didnt seem to big a deal for my toon, because I'm not a damage dealer anyway, but then I asked...can I solo?
I can hold mad agro, like +3-4 minions and Lieus, and a boss here and there quite well without really needing many inspirations. But, as is, it takes me several minutes of cycling my attacks on a -2-3 boss (or lieus even). So I'm basically usless as a soloer unless I respec more damage bubbles into my attacks, and reduce my damage sponge abilities...
Any commments from some other tanks with this problem?
Or am I off my meds again 
?
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This is why I support the HP increase for minions. It doesn't make the hero weaker, it just makes enemies a little tougher. I understand why the devs want to do this (to remove the City of Blasters mentality with overwhelming AoE attacks), and I think avoiding the simple nerf approach is the better of the two options.
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This sort of fallacy is driving me *nuts!* The HP increase is a nerf. Here's why.
1. Problem = AoE attacks (particularly alpha strikes) are dominating combat and making combat too easy.
2. Solution? Raise Mob HP and XP. Now alpha strikes are hindered.
3. Problem? Now all other attacks are hindered, too.
4. Result? Everybody gets nerfed, but AoE attackers can make up for it a little easier than single target attackers.
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IMO, the hp increase is a fiasco. It doesn't have much impact on the game issues it was intended to address. For example, it has almost no impact on Subby. None. He solos exactly the same on Test as on Live, except on Test he can't take on +4 bosses. Which I hardly ever do anyway, so no big deal.
For AoE blasters, the HP increase means one more attack - at best - or you attack one level lower. Yellow instead of orange minions, orange instead of red, or whatever. XP is very little different.
The paradox is that missions are actually better solo for these builds b/c you can get decent XP. Before, missions only really were fun in teams so everybody tended to want groups fro them. So really, the main impact was to make solo builds less likely to team for missions.
For builds that couldn't solo, like pre-32 trollers (non-illusion) and Tanks, the changes mean you suck. You are now absolutely worhtless as a damage dealer, which means having a Tank and a troller, or 2 Tanks or 2 trollers, is now worthless. IOW, the support classes have an even tougher time soloing.
The mob changes aren't working. They don't fix the problem, and instead cause more.
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I'm just about to leave to catch a flight back to the West Coast...
Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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In order to prevent blaster alpha strikes from dominating the game, the hp and ensuing exp of the mobs had been increased, which has further saddened the Tankers, Controllers and Defenders, who struggle to keep up with the ability to solo (not to keep up with blasters and scrappers, but to be able to solo at all, or at least, at a reasonable pace).
Isn't this just robbing one neighbour to pay off another?
Let's face it, rather than increasing mob HP across the board, in order to slow the advance of one class, do the rational thing; rather than inflate all the mobs against all the players... lower the damage dealt by blasters and scrappers slightly.
OH NOES! I'm sure I just heard a thousand flames coming my way, but look at it logically: why screw over 60% of the classes (not counting Kheldians, since we're not sure yet how they fit into this equation) in order to put 20% of them back in their place? Groups should be useful at any point, and yes, are just about required once AV's come into play, but such changes don't bode well for anyone but blasters and scrapper to be able to solo their own missions, and they are the classes that can already do it!
I agree that changes should be made, and I agree that "nerfing" is never seen as a good thing (at least initially), but coming from someone with one of each AT, and a blaster 1 level from 50, I'd rather see my damage slightly toned down than watch 3 of my other characters be unable to solo any of their even-con missions, relagated to hoping to find a quality team, or outleveling missions by abusing Task Forces and Trials eventually as levelling measures.
No, I don't feel this is gloom, doom and woe, the end of the world, but it strikes me as overly and unneccessarily complicated to change EVERY mob in relation to one class, rather than change the one class in relation to every mob.
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Right now, Tanker changes have highest priority. The Design team tested some stuff last week while I was in Philly, and I'll personally test some more things this week. I'll post an update on this stuff on Friday.
We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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Tankers needed more damage and lower end costs BEFORE the increase to mob HP's. If these options apply to Defenders and Controllers because of the increase to mob HP's, they should also apply to Tankers, because Tankers cannot get groups at higher levels and are forced to solo. Controllers easily get groups and can solo well with their pets. Defenders are always in demand. Tankers were and are left out in the end-game. The extra mob HP's exacerbates the problem.
There needs to be a way for Tankers to significantly improve damage. Anything else requires nerfing Controllers and Scrappers to make the Tanker the only aggro manager.
In the end game Controllers manage aggro and Scrappers tank, the Tanker is a ball-and-chain for team xp, and is unwanted. The Tanker AT needs to increase its damage to change that perception so as to be able to tank without being perceived as a ball-and-chain on team xp.
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If you really want to address the AoE problem you need to... nerf the AoE attacks .
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I think I speak for most players when I say this should NEVER be a suggestion.
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Why not?
If the AoE problem is the reason for the minion HP increase, then it's addressing the problem, AND it's creating new ones, or exacerbating existing ones.
It's been a long standing, existing problem that certain ATs or combinations of power sets have great difficulty soloing at all, or at least with any form of speed. Statesman himself has said that soloing should be an option for all heroes. The increase in mob hit points is going to simply deepen this problem. Combos that are good soloers are going to be slowed, but combos that were weak soloers are going to be neigh unsoloable.
While Statesman has not been overly concerned about a lot of characters taking Stamina, he has said that it's something that may have to changed, made inherant (IIRC). Fights with higher hit point mobs are going to last longer, and the limiting factor on how long a fight can last is how long your endurance can hold out. Builds that might not have needed stamina pre hit point increase may now find that they need it. Another problem exacerbated.
Tanks complain that they don't do enough damage. This increase in hit points makes the rift between tanker damage and scrapper defense seem even larger. Another problem made larger by this "fix".
Yet this increase does address the need to do something about AoE alpha strikes. But wouldn't it be more productive and better to address that problem directly than tripping over so many other problems on the way there? Now defender, controller and tanker damage will have to be increased, or their endurance tweaked downward, or both. But how much can you tweak it? You don't want tanks who become scrappers, and you don't want defenders who become blasters. The testing is going to be time consuming, problematic, and difficult. Or you could just make a sweeping change to AoE.
Consider a AoE damage fall off. Fire blaster goes in and pops inferno. Everything in melee range takes 100% damage. Just beyond melee, the damage falls off somewhat, everything just outside melee takes 85% damage. Shortly to the outside of that ring the final ring takes 70% damage. If the mobs were nicely gathered, they're all, or almost all taking full damage. If you were less careful, you're going to have some pissed off mobs who are pretty hurt, but still alive enough to take pot shots at you.
And this would be a sweeping change. To us, blasters and defenders alike, and to mobs. So those grenades that hit the tank and do full damage to him, might not kill you outright because you were a little too close (unless you were a lot too close). So you, the fire blaster who went in close for a fire breath won't get all of the alpha strike when the psychic clockwork king gets pissy at your melee-ers.
Yes, this too would require testing. But at least it would be adressing the problem directly, rather than prancing around it and creating havoc in it's wake.
So I was typing out a response to defend my post, but in the middle of that I realized you made a compelling argument.
All I was saying is that I hate to see one particular player class singled out, then have their powers reduced. It just doesn't seem fair to that group. And I hate the precedent it sets. But you have a good point, this HP increase it going screw up everyone. You win
Look, at this point there needs to be some consistency IMHO. AoE's are the damage kings. That's why Electricity Blasters will always be inferior to Assault Rifle Blasters, and why there are so many more AR or Fire Blasters than Elec Blasters.
Similarly, I think the distinction between Scrappers and Tankers should be that Scrappers should be the AoE kings, while Tankers should be the Single-Target kings. Make Tankers AoE's weak (well actually, they're already weak) but give them the strongest single-target attacks. The Scrappers then use their AoE's to take out 5 mobs in the time it takes a Tanker to take out 3 mobs (so the Tanker is only 60% as effective and efficient as the Scrapper ... not even 75%), but the Tanker now has a purpose. They become the Boss Killer. The slightly higher single-target damage helps keep that boss aggro'd to the Tanker. The Tanker then uses his punchvoke or Tauntvoke to maintain aggro of the rest of the mobs.
If the Tanker damage is not significantly raised (doubled would be more appropriate frankly, but I realize that's not being considered), then at least remove the post-animation delay from Tanker attacks so that Tankers can attack more often. That's a sneaky way to raise DPS without many people even noticing. (Let's see ... crap damage x 1.3 = pisspoor damage ... that's a nice upgrade!).
Hear hear for the pisspoor damage update!
There really is no point in even discussing changing AT roles in the game. That would be a totally different game. That just isn't going to happen. If you ask me, Tankers and Scrappers should have been one AT with the ability to make yourself more defensive, or more offensive or blend the two. But that's me.
The HP/Damage increase needs to be dropped and something else put in place, or my idea from above should be tweaked and implemented
I've already forgotten about most of you
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We're still analyzing the numbers for Defenders & Controllers. We need to get a better picture of the impact of the mob hp/damage increase. If we make any changes, I can't say whether it'd be an Endurance decrease or a Damage increase or both.
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More HP on mobs means my tank and defenders not only have to swing/shoot more, but also keep their toggles running longer per fight. Id vote for the both category.
Also, while on a team, my friends ice blaster needs 10 more shots to help finish off 10 more mobs. Another friend's fire blaster only needs 1 more shot (if that) to finish off those same mobs (or as many as we can cram into a small area). Given you ahve stated AE attacks are a concern given their disproportionalte value over single target attacks, how do you view these changes in terms of fire blaster/spine scrapper vs say, elec/claws? The team value for AE vs single target attacks got DRAMATICALLY boosted if this goes live without a boost in damage or a significant end reduction for single target attacks.