For those who say fighting for something is wrong
By
63rd_Assassin,
Posted on: 2004-11-22 18:37 in Tankers
So the primary purpose of Burn was for status protection huh?
Think we should go over to the Test Forum and gloat?
Ive been part of a lot of MMO communities.. and actually I recently left COH for 2 reasons.. one, I moved and couldnt get a good enough connection.. and two, i was interested in WoW.
But after spending some time in the WoW community.. I realized just how spoiled I was by the Cryptic devs 
. You guys do a great job of listening to, and supporting your community and it really makes a difference.
needless to say, now that im getting a better connection im coming back to COH and getting geared up for COV
Not to sound too sceptical(sp?) but ice armour has been due to be fixed "soon" pretty much since release, as has untyped damage.
I'll believe it when I see it
MA Arc:
Overload (Arc ID #405822) | Status: Final | Last Edited: 5th Nov 2010 for text fixes.
I wanted to believe that I hadn't been spit on. I tried to believe that this wouldn't happen. But it's gonna. World of Warcraft is coming so that's the plain and simple reason this rushed update is gonna be so bad for us. If you'll notice in all the game guides, the way the choices are listed when you create a character. Tankers are always last. So it's probably just a matter of numbers. I can't believe that an idea such as this would make it all the way to the powers that be without someone saying" Hey, something's wrong here." Tankers have been ignored for a long time so just what in the hell makes you people think that things are gonna change all of a sudden. You know I don't care about a blaster having my best power. But when you just basically forget about my class and treat us like second class the whole time. Then give some "Epic Powers" that don't help us at all. Well that's just the last straw. If this issue goes live like it is what's the point of my lvl 50 tank that I modeled after an idea for a hero I thought of 11 years ago. Reach the highest lvl to become as useless as a car with no wheels. Our only purpose was as a "MEATSHIELD" A term I absolutely hate. As far as the changes I'll believe em when I see em. But that any of you think that all of a sudden things are gonna change....WAKE UP!!! Words are nothing! My suggestion.......scrap Tankers from being chosen as archetypes. You've already killed them.
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Statesman :
5. The Archetype description in character creation should be changed to say that they are the third best melee damage type in the game.
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Just out of curiousity, if Scrappers are #1 in melee damage archetypes, and Tankers are #3....
....and Blasters and Controllers and Defenders are range oriented then it begs the question....
Who exactly is the #2melee archetype??? 
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Statesman :
5. The Archetype description in character creation should be changed to say that they are the third best melee damage type in the game.
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Just out of curiousity, if Scrappers are #1 in melee damage archetypes, and Tankers are #3....
....and Blasters and Controllers and Defenders are range oriented then it begs the question....
Who exactly is the #2melee archetype???
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Wondering this myself. Probably a typo.
Who said scrappers are #1? You guys have never seen a blaster up close, have ya?
OK here is a thought... Question.... or whatever you wanna call it.
I play a Nat. Tanker (Medieval Hope on INF. lvl 33 ATM)... All my power can be explained in the way that "fits". She is INV (without U.S. Just can handle that when I was knocking back the baddies and had to run after them, since I made it so far without... just done feel like I needed it... but that is another story) The INV comes from her Medieval Armor and her skills in fighting/Dodging (love to watch her sway away from the punches BTW). 
Her secondary is Battle Axe hence all the new powers with that come from skill again Fitness... well you have to be fit to fight like she does. Provoke... WELL How you YOU like a ticked off Female with a battle Axe in full armore coming after you to arrest you?? (All the movement powers were too hard to fit, so S.J. was the one I liked that could get me everywhere I needed to go)
Although I have not got to see them yet, (Not high enough) I do have to wonder about the EPP's for the tankers... they all sound so.... UN Natural 
I mean it is hard enough to try to fit S.J. in there, I dont know how to add in Ele. Beams shooting from my eyes..... 
Any chance of getting some EPPs in all ATs that seem more... natural for those of us that take Natural.???
Just a thought....
As it stands, I will more than likly not be taking an EPP, BUT then I lose a whole chance at a power pool slot and 4 more powers to pick from... Acrobatics and Combat jumping, the other 3 in presence and Hurdle are not needed. So other than blowing it to just lvl up, not worth the picks... I planned on Leadership, but alot say it is not worth a Tank taking... That would have been worth all 4 powers BUT since I eat END, I dont think it would help that much... So from here I will have 6 new powers coming, and nothing that really fits, other than 3 that are in my main pool sets that I like, which will leave me needing 3 more...
(Unless the new Fear changes work in the power pools too and I misread it... Now that would be worth taking )
Also Please do look at the END cost it now take for Tanks to arrest the higher HP minions... I have a choice right now: I can have my Toggles up and be safe and do a very long battle OR Drop the toggles and hope for the best. ((Really really sad when you cannot take a group of 7 total in Crey that codes Green Minions Blue LTs and 1 white Boss and go down in a heap because your Toggles all dropped and you stay mezed till the trip to the Hosp. THAT for a tank is slow and painful.... ))
We're talking about melee damage archetypes, not ranged.... however, if Blasters can go toe to toe in melee as well as or better than Tankers, then.... :whimper:
Moo.
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We're talking about melee damage archetypes, not ranged....
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Actually, he said "Melee Damage Type," not archetype. Blasters have the most powerful melee damage in-game is the point, easily eclipsing scrappers. Scrappers are #2, and tankers are #3.
And as far as blasters going toe-to-toe with mobs? I see it often. A guy in my SG has Thunder Strike slotted up and uses it as a finisher quite often. The damage he doles out with that attack makes me weep in jealousy.
Blappers pretty much died off with the emergence of split-damage and increased status effects from Issue 2, but I'm betting that with the new EPP's, you'll probably see a new resurgence of them from 44 onward.
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Dang straight. Post your ideas/thought/opinions. I read 'em - and so does the design team. And I'm not such a prima donna that I can't go back on a past decision and eat some crow.
The most important thing is the quality of the game. That's it. Everything else is secondary (including ego's).
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Then why was mt lengthy and informative 6 page thread removed? There were no flames. There were intelligent posts from many people arguing against my idea that the epic powers are a joke. and even a few arguing for my idea.
Hmm but I logged onto day at lunch time, posted a few responses, checked back after work and my thread never existed.
time to eat some crow. 
*Nova Guard picks himself up, dusts himself off and once again leaps into the fray* "Yo Freakshow!! You ugly and so's your momma!!" BURN 
Thanks to the devs for listening. Sometimes simpler is better 
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The most important thing is the quality of the game. That's it. Everything else is secondary (including ego's).
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OMG, you all just read it! Statesman's nerfing egos!!!!!1!!11!
/teasing
Thanks States. Appreciate what we've seen and heard today. Hope to hear and see more in coming tomorrows.
Dathus: [ QUOTE ]
Besides. Scrappers really don't start to get UBER until the veryyy late game. I'd say about 41+ is when there uberness really becomes apparant. By that time you're so close to end game it really doesn't matter.
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Uh, by that logic you realize you just justified any late-game downgrade or "nerf" that might come your way, right? Because "By that time you're so close to end game it really doesn't matter" right?
Look, we've got plenty of threads going for those issues already, and there'll be plenty more. Michael_Au_Cluin made a nice thread, and Statesman was very gracious and big by popping in and making the comment he did. Changes are coming, and at this point can't be avoided. Either Tanks just walk off into the ocean, all become tanking Scrappers, or migrate off into other AT for good. OR... we work on getting things balanced and fun, a challenge Statesman has said he and his team are up for. My hope is that everyone will work together positively to achieve this. You just might get more of your concerns listened to without the hyperventilating over-reacting.
Exactly.
We fought to have our tankers recognized.
They were and in the doing so Statesman and this staff have created a better atmosphere of a caring community. Yes harsh and strong statement were made by passionate and hard working Tanks. Would you want any other kind on your team?
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Now about those Mind Controllers...
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Mind Controllers are actually really good if you know how to play one.
So do we get the old Burn back on the third update or the fourth?
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I wanted to believe that I hadn't been spit on. I tried to believe that this wouldn't happen. But it's gonna. World of Warcraft is coming so that's the plain and simple reason this rushed update is gonna be so bad for us. If you'll notice in all the game guides, the way the choices are listed when you create a character. Tankers are always last. So it's probably just a matter of numbers. I can't believe that an idea such as this would make it all the way to the powers that be without someone saying" Hey, something's wrong here." Tankers have been ignored for a long time so just what in the hell makes you people think that things are gonna change all of a sudden. You know I don't care about a blaster having my best power. But when you just basically forget about my class and treat us like second class the whole time. Then give some "Epic Powers" that don't help us at all. Well that's just the last straw. If this issue goes live like it is what's the point of my lvl 50 tank that I modeled after an idea for a hero I thought of 11 years ago. Reach the highest lvl to become as useless as a car with no wheels. Our only purpose was as a "MEATSHIELD" A term I absolutely hate. As far as the changes I'll believe em when I see em. But that any of you think that all of a sudden things are gonna change....WAKE UP!!! Words are nothing! My suggestion.......scrap Tankers from being chosen as archetypes. You've already killed them.
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The reason I am quoting you is quite simple... the logic you base your conclusions upon is completely unfounded. You claim that tankers are only an afterthought as evidenced by the fact that they are always listed last in the manuals and the character creation engine. While that could certainly be argued, don't you believe that it is far more likely (and probably the real reason for the order) that things were listed alphabetically. In such an order T certainly comes after B, C, D and S. I do not point this out to be inflamatory, but I see no justification in jumping to ludicrous assumptions when far more logical ones exist. You certainly have a right to take issue with the order of the alphabet, and demand that T rise up the ladder, but until such a change is implimented I hardly think that cryptic can be at fault for this.
you totally missed my point. I was stating that when empleting any changes to the game structure as a whole the Tankers are always last because that's the order that they were put in. And it had nothing to do with the .......alphabet? I'm just saying that instead of completing the job with Tankers they just threw those crap tastic epic powers our way. I've enjoyed this game, I really have and I'm not leaving the game. I just realize that playing my Tanker is gonna be out of the question because of his uselessness. I'm will ing to see if they "unnerf" what they've done. But as far as things being changed before issue 3 goes live. I don't buy that one bit.
I'm dusting off my old tanker Rock Steady after issue 3 and try him again. I love the big lug but he was just so darn frustrating to play. The only char worse is my grav/ff controller. But Rock will be out of retirement soon thanks to you States. At least, I hope this makes him fun to play again. If I put him away again, I'm afraid it's the old delete key for Rock to free up a great name for some deserving hero for Christmas.
Pinnacle - Rock Steady, Warp Speed, Dr. Twilight, Toybox, The Turtle, Quark Master, Snow Spirit, Spirit Shaman
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Dang straight. Post your ideas/thought/opinions. I read 'em - and so does the design team. And I'm not such a prima donna that I can't go back on a past decision and eat some crow.
The most important thing is the quality of the game. That's it. Everything else is secondary (including ego's).
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And that sir, is why you are one of the finest developers ever to grace the MMORPG industry!
*applauds Jack for being human and having humility in a world where businesspeople having such is normally considered foolish*
Good show Jack!
Most tankers I talk to would be more than happy to lose the +RES component of UYS if it ment they could move with it on. It basically becomes Integration like that though, and that may be a bit too powerful for an already crazy powerful set.
Even if it has a high endurance drain (like integration), that is balanced out by not having to run Acrobatics all of the time.
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I am happy that we the tankers who I believe are the heart and soul of this game and who love to stand toe to toe in the trenches were others fear to tread - are finally getting some attention.
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For being the heart and soul, I have to say I haven't grouped with a tanker since level 30 and I'm level 43 now. Where are all the tankers if they are the heart and soul of the game. LOL
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Then I feel it's only proper I point out that you used the possesive rather than plural of ego.
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Well, since "ego" means "I", the plural of "ego" should be "emeis" which means "we". N'est-ce pas?
To every "Joy joy joy, Statesman is fixing us" replier, I'd like to remind you.
He does this all the time.
The "fight" will be over when the neccessary changes are actually on test, tested, and then moved to live.
All I've seen is more stall tactics.
"Yes, I will focus on Tankers after issue 3."
Always "after" something.
See, Issue 3 will bring bugs into the game.
So those will come before tanker fixes.
Then while the fixes are coming in, the other 4 archetypes will start asking about Issue 4. Then Issue 4 will start testing before Tanker fixes, and then the cycle will renew.
It's been like this since release, and I've seen nothing new today that changes it.
I do like the fact that Statesman has the right attitude about a MMOG community and game design changes. Here's to Statesman, he's a stand-up guy... and let's hope he finds a way to make his promises happen, too. The life of a developer who can't do that is a scary one indeed, at least on a message board.