RE: Statesmans Comments on Electric Blasters
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-10-07 24:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Electrical Blast does have a power to stop En Recovery: it's called Short Circuit.
However, that power's recovery debuff flag doesn't seem to work on ArchVillians, from what my fellow players are saying. I haven't tried it in Issue 2, but I'll be doing so soon, so I guess I'll see it for myself.
I happen to think Electrical Blast and Electrical Manipulation are both rather effective if used correctly, but I'm just one hero. Try them for yourself.
Oh, and I use Thunder Strike and Havoc Punch quite a bit; at least once a battle. When the mobs can't strike back those two attacks are very effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I know, but I'm saying stop end reduction for a few seconds with EVERY attack...ball lightning, lightning bolt, etc, etc. As I said, I'm far from the end drain authority but it's just a thought.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you are saying, and I see the majesty of this plan (I really like it); however, the developers seem to almost never give a player a power without also giving it to the enemies. If they buff the elec blast attacks in this fashion for the players, I would be very concerned that they would do the same thing when used by villains against players. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? Freaks alone.
[ QUOTE ]
I see what you are saying, and I see the majesty of this plan (I really like it); however, the developers seem to almost never give a player a power without also giving it to the enemies. If they buff the elec blast attacks in this fashion for the players, I would be very concerned that they would do the same thing when used by villains against players. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? Freaks alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch. Not to mention Clockworks at lower levels. Point taken.
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see what you are saying, and I see the majesty of this plan (I really like it); however, the developers seem to almost never give a player a power without also giving it to the enemies. If they buff the elec blast attacks in this fashion for the players, I would be very concerned that they would do the same thing when used by villains against players. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? Freaks alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ouch. Not to mention Clockworks at lower levels. Point taken.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is a good way to show how weak the END drain is. As it stands, it takes a pack of clockwork to really make a dent in folks. And we don't have 800 end and massive regen.
[ QUOTE ]
However, I think that every electric attack should do noticable end drain and have a chance to halt end recovery for a few seconds.
As it is, its a complete waste to slot end reduction in the vast majority of electric powers. I think your average electric power should drain between 10-15 endurance -- that'd make slotting worthwhile, if you chose that strategy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knockback for energy blasters is noticeable, and produces a tangible effect. The DoT from fire is, as well, very noticeable. Ice's holds & slows are very noticeable. Yadda yadda.
The endurance drain of electricity is SO MINOR as to not be noticeable. This is a secondary effect that is ineffectual until you pick up Short Circuit (available as soon as level 8). Short Circuit is a PBAoE, which equates to "high risk usage" for a blaster, and is therefore not an easy power to manage.
Even then, the impact upon a mob is relatively minor; mobs do not use endurance for Flight, for instance. Heroes are constantly burning through endurance because we always face multiple foes; villains are part of groups, and therefore the demands on their individual endurance pools is very low. Blasting away 5-10 points of a community mob's endurance is not going to get you anywhere.
I picked up Thunderous Blast at 32 and Power Sink at 35 (a logical progression, as TB is such a massive drain on your endurance, as well as your targets'). I can keep minions perma-drained and the occasional boss, provided I have a controller handy to lock them down before I jump in. If I try to do the SC+PS combo (followed up by a TB or Ball Lightning, depending on recharge times) while solo, I get wailed upon. Particularly if the baddies have a hold/sleep/disorient guy in their numbers. It's no fun taking a nap in the middle of death, as any tanker can tell you.
Besides, if I have a controller handy, then why am I -- the blaster -- on crowd control duty? :P
The only.... the ONLY.... secondary effect I care about with electricity is the "convulsion" stun that mobs sometimes receive when I zap them. It doesn't last as long as what Ice gets, but I'd be thrilled to be able to slot enhancements that increase the duration of that thing.
I've tried to entertain the argument before that "Hey, as an electricity blaster, I get TWO secondaries! The drain and the hold!"
Then I'm reminded that half of that list doesn't do much, and the other half doesn't last long. Useless + Mediocre != Good.
I'm sorry, devs, but the difference between playing an electricity blaster and any other blaster is very noticeable; in the bad way.
[ QUOTE ]
I do have short circuit six slotted with Endurance Drains, I can drain any boss 3 levels above me nearly totally of endurance so long as I don't miss totally. I have NEVER seen this power do anything against an AV OR Monster level Villain at any level. I went through and beat down Adamaster for the badge (I'm currently 48, he was 20something) I could not drain his end at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fact, and many other good points are made here. Im a lvl 49 elec/elec, I have SC and PwrSnk 6 slotted SC all drains, pwr snk 4 drains 2 recharge rates. I have lighting field 3 slotted (always running) all drains. Im a drainer. I have noticed a tweak in villans end recovery since issue 2. Purple patch brought sappers with the power of an AV. (cant drain their end) Carnies recover quick as it is an make drain near useless. The makers of the game are petrified of us drainers. I used to be able to run into a mob drain em and with lighting field running they just sat there. No range, no melee, no run. Now the melee back, run or recover end quick enough to either run and range or melee with a big power with a sliver of end. This is a sign, i'm not agaisnt Ai responce to my drains, just allow my drain to have the proper effect.
My suggestion for Av's and Monsters: It should take like 10 full slotted Sc's to drain an AV ( gota be high and dangerous to do but still possible) 8 for a monster.
Last but not least and I wanna stress this (thus the new paragraph) Sappers, not being able to be drained is a joke. A pure joke. The power of an AV in a minion. Go solo a malta mish and its chock full of sapper goodness. This power is directed to just 2 types of toons you can make that are drainers. I can see energy resistance but not being able to drain em one bit is dumb and a pure message. Sappers are the little babies of the devs and they protect them as a mother holds her suckling infant. Make it fair , 2 full slotted SC and a sapper is outa business. Get real. Sorry for the rant but this fact alone about sappers is completly sad, that and the fact that after getting no souviner for the Crimson (Kronos) arc I got no souviner and was emailed from support theres nothing they can do about it. Reset the contact for all 5 lvls of missions he offers, data mine that time and date I gave ya, look at our toons and see that crimson offers no more missions (proof we did arc.)
Thanks for lending an eye
Personally, i'm of the opinion the End. Drain is useless. Lack of End. doesn't get a MOB arrested, lack of HP does. Anything you slot to increase End Drain. would be better slotted to increase damage. A MOB with 100% End. and 0%HP gets arrested. MOBs are arrested, or your dead long before lack of End. becomes a factor. Also, considering how often we fight AV's they shouldn't be a factor in your slotting.
End. Drain sounds great in theory, but is useless in application.
I did notice the end drain from clocks. They'd always make me carry extra end inspirations.
As a Kin/ Elec Defender I use the following powers with great regularity to drain end.
Transferrence: Drains ALL of an equal level minions end, MOST of an LT's, and about HALF of a boss's. This is with NO end drain enhancer.
Transfusion: Exact same as Transferrence.
Ball Lightning: Used for DMG, as END drain is not noticible w/ this.
Short Circuit: Drains over 1/4 from almost all mobs the same. ADDED bonus of locking out END recharge for a short duration. This I have 6 slotted w/ Recharge redux (with perma hasten) so that the mobs DON'T regen END.
Lightning Bolt: Used solely for DMG, as END drain is not noticible here, not much anyways.
What am I getting at? Thanks to Transferrence, and Transfusion I can get the mobs to zero pretty quick. Relying on Electricity to do the job would leave me.....visiting the Mr. Taxi wing of the hospital. (Gawd how the HMO's hate me.)
WV
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
States, I hate to be rude, but if you seriously think that an electric blaster's drain can be helpful againest an AV, you obviously have never played one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhh so the way to use the END drain is Tank Def and Six Elec Blasters. Thats such a usefull Secondary effect.
Phosphorus
Ya know......let's test.
I can get an AV mission, either this afternoon or late tonight/tomorrow. I am a level 42 elec, willing to SK. Please PM me with name, level, and available times, and let's copy over to Test and see what a full team of 8 elec blasters can do to an av.
Everyone, please try to have full slotted SC with green SOs, Thunderous Blast charged up with some end drain, and as much general end drain as possible.
I am pretty sure that even with a full team we're not going to have much luck (and I can't really see an arguement that would require more elec blasters than any variety of controller, but that's another amtter), but if we test, we'll know 100%, yes?
Make sure you get a video of it. I'm very curious on the results.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
#1 End drain only works if they're fully drained, partial, it's a no go.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooops. That's not true. Some AV powers require an amount of Endurance - so that if the AV doesn't have it - he can't use it. So bringing one down to 0 isn't exactly necessary to have an impact.
[/ QUOTE ]
That seems fairly misleading because AVs have far more endurance than player characters. The figure I keep seeing thrown around is 800 endurance...so I'll start with that (yes I know it's an assumption but that's what we're left with in the absence of hard numbers ). Reducing an AV with 800 endurance to 10% of their blue bar will still leave them with 80 endurance - more than enough to use virtually any power in the game.
If this scenario is accurate, then I can't see how endurance drain versus an AV would ever be an "outstanding" tactic. A single tic of endurace recovery would provide an AV with roughly 40-60 points (based on the estimated 800 total). It appears that you'd need a full party with endurance drain attacks to keep an AV that close to empty anyway...and how often does that happen?
My question to the DEVS: is this scenario accurate or is it based on false assumptions? Also, do all AVs have around 800 endurance?
Actually, this isn't estimated. Every AV I've fought has 800 endurance, but granted I didn't know how to check it until just recently.
In the target box you can find out their health and end just by holding your cursor over their red and blue bar, just like yours.
Someone else has made this point, but I think it bears repeating.
Endurance Drain is a useless effect against most enemies because they don't live long enough for the Endurance Drain to matter.
AV battles are the exception, but players spend a very small percentage of their playing time in AV battles. When not in an AV battle, the Endurance Drain effect is wasted and may as well not even be present for all the difference it makes.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, this isn't estimated. Every AV I've fought has 800 endurance, but granted I didn't know how to check it until just recently.
In the target box you can find out their health and end just by holding your cursor over their red and blue bar, just like yours.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for that handy fact, Vagabondx. I guess I never sat still in battle long enough to check that.
So...I guess a full party of Kinetics users and Electrical Blasters is needed to drain an AV to 0...and the group will have to spam Short Circuit to disable the AVs endurance regen or else he'll have enough to fight back in one or two tics.
I guess I'll wait to see how Crenson's test goes...because I don't even know 8 people with endurance drain attacks on Justice.
[ QUOTE ]
Endurance Drain is a useless effect against most enemies because they don't live long enough for the Endurance Drain to matter.
AV battles are the exception, but players spend a very small percentage of their playing time in AV battles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok just to add injury to insult...Yes AV battles might have a Mob that lives long enough that END drain might actually be useful versus just knocking out their HPs, but you basically can't drain an AV so really END drain is worthless here too? 
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'll wait to see how Crenson's test goes...because I don't even know 8 people with endurance drain attacks on Justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know maybe 4 around the same level on Freedom...at most.
Hence why I think we need to all copy over to Test. The AV will be 43, so the more people in the higher levels we can get, the better. Kineticsists, Electric blasters, ect. An Ice or a Fire tanker with thier end drains would help too.......
I'm pretty seirous about this. Heck, if nothing else, it's on test, so hardly much punishment if we loose.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
States, I hate to be rude, but if you seriously think that an electric blaster's drain can be helpful againest an AV, you obviously have never played one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
[/ QUOTE ]
This argument is as logical as the past argument you made about putting multiple controllers on a team in order to be able to affect an AV with any kind of hold. Sorry States - not good enough. No one wants to pad a team with multiples of a gimped character class just so they can maybe get his endurance down to zero - and never be able to kill him because they don't do enough damage.
Might as well /em boombox since the only thing that really takes down an AV is damage - with their regen rates and resistances to every power, sadly, the only thing that works against them is the might sword (or blast, etc.)
Just to throw my little bit in here .. My main is a level 44 Kinetics, but I also have a 30 Elec Blaster. I agree, things are dead way before end drain matters, but as a Blaster, well, that's the whole point of being a Blaster.
As far as Kinetic's go, I can drain almost totaly in one shot from boss on down, teh endurance with one Transference hit 
It's been pretty effective.
Here's a question though, if End drain on elec is useless, then what should replace it? personally, I never want knockback added, and I dont want something another AT already has.
Perhaps maybe the effect of lightning blast on all of our attack powers? (Where the guy will get shocked for 3-5 seconds after every lighthing blast, and can't do anything)
At either rate, let's here some suggestions on how to fix it. Had enough comlaining on the current problem
The main point of being a blaster is that we do more damage. Yet Electric Blasters have some of our damage removed and replaced with controllish type effects, which is fine, if he controllish type effects actually DID something that was as consistent as the other blaster secondarys.
Our secondary is very effective against a minority of the mobs in the game. I'd like to get it to the point where it is very effective against at least a majority...
As a Kinetic-Elec defender and using Transferance ( endu drain from target, buff to team ) I never ever saw an AV endu bar moving, never.
Example : few days ago, my SG mate and I in a group of 4 fought Siege twice and I landed all my Transferance, I casted it every 10 sec or so ( hasten 6 slotted and Transferance with 3 recharge reducer ) and it never drained any endurance from Siege or it was so small that I could not see it.
AV seems to have an endless endu pool or an insane endu recovery rate.
It does. Short Circuit is currently 5 slotted for end drain, Power Boost has the one recharge in it - both will be six slotted eventually. Using Stealth + Super Speed to approach, Power Boost and Short Circuit will end drain a red boss (or lower) completely. If I keep hammering him, I can keep him empty. It's not perfect - missing with an attack while I'm waiting for stuff to recharge can grant him a window to gain a sliver of endurance back and counter-strike.
Enemy targets with stealth detection can aggro the spawn onto me before I am in melee range for the Short Circuit attack, which is painful! I can miss with the initial end drain and get smooshed, and I have been *noticed* and attacked during the Short Circuit animation. I can burn through my endurance bar pretty quickly spamming Power Boost and Short Circuit atop with my damage cycle, too. But overall, it works very well for me and I have fun with it.
The same tactic works on minions, but it's generally wasted on them. Depending on the group makeup, tho, I will end drain larger spawns sometimes as my AE damage isn't so great and I'll be whittling down the group one or two at a time. I might as well reduce the attacks against me while I do.
Thunderous Blast is decent endurance drain, too - but it's on a slow timer (as it should be), and I will be slotting it out for damage, obviously. Without Short Circuit, I do not have endurance drain as a useful tactical advantage. I'd love to see the other attacks have a more noticeable effect too, and I'd like it if Short Circuit were a ranged AoE. But those are convenience issues and mebbe a little unbalanced. (ie: Short Circuit being a PBAoE adds risk to what is a very large advantage - that's fair to my thinking.)
Until I see what comes with the 40+ game (and maybe after that, I dunno till I get there), I will feel that the electricity endurance drain effect is useful and balanced against the sub-purple content - but that you need to build towards it much more aggressively than the other blasters do to reap the benefit of their secondary effects. (A target that is 30% has its damage output reduced by 30% - one that drained of 30% endurance can do 100% damage output.) Against an AV, I have yet to find that the endurance drain has any usefulness at all. Against an AV, I say its HP drain for the win.
[ QUOTE ]
reply to post in general..
Maybe some mobs need to be looked at (I recall MR.Taxi saying no effect on fake nem. and I know for a fact its very effective on tsoo sorcs)
[/ QUOTE ]
That might be true but what is the point? They can still teleport and heal like mad with no endurance showing. *shrug*
Cheers,
FD
[ QUOTE ]
95% defense, with a 90% resist? INvul tankers can reach this, and the other tankers aren't too far behind.
'I'm sorry. Was I supposed to -feel that-? How do you feel about -this-! *squishy elec blaster sound*
End drain isn't psi, and no power in the elec blaster's repitore is nearly as good as, say, the Sappers. You notice how a tanker doesn't really have issue with Anti-matter....the elec blaster (tanker edition)? Of the 3 main end draining aiblities present in elec/elec, he doesn't seem to haev Thunderous Blast (The selfcost would be very high, and why owuld he drain his own end sinec we can't? Not to mention the outcry if he used a power this damaging), nor does he seem to have Short Circuit (this is probablyjust the devs being nice).
However, he does have (and use) power sink, as well as the inherent drain on all other attacks. Did any tankers notice e heavy end drain from him? I don't think there's a whole lot of chance of PvP powers being better- but I'm not a tanker and I couldn't survive a flury of his attacks well enough to notice end drain.
I am honestly not saying that end drain wasn't effective, but I would like to know if it was highly noticable or not. I do think that this is a somewhat valid representation of how the drain should work in PVP. Any comments on this from Scrappers/Tankers would be highly appreciated by me, I know. I've been told that the drain wasn't that high, but I'd like to have more confirmation.
[/ QUOTE ]
!!!!
I've got it.
I think I've figured out why Statesman thinks electric blasters should be able to drain bosses, and why they can't, AND it was your post that reminded me.
Alrighty.
Let me begin by stating the assumption that States bases his assumptions upon the "Pen and Paper" aspects of how end drain works, not it's current implementation.
My train of thought is brought mostly from fighting lots of sappers recently, one of the worste parts of which is of course, the fact that they are essentially immune to my end drain, and then, they're very resistant to my attacks.
I've read on the boards (now, I admit this is only something i've read) That sappers have huge energy resistance, (and thus are able to survive our Thunderous Blasts.)
For a while, I just thought of them as a tough mob, that was impossible to drain.
Until it dawned on me, as I read your post.
Not exactly sure why I thought about it, but I wondered if your resistances would apply to end drain, and then I thought, if they did, tanks would be as impossible to drain as...
An Archvillain...
So then I went back up and read State's reply.
[ QUOTE ]
All secondary effects against AV's are resisted
[/ QUOTE ]
And then, we all know Archvillains take less damage from all our attacks, which brings me to wonder...
Is endurance drain factored into energy reduction?
Think about it, if it is, it would explain so much about the problem, AVs would have stacked endurance drain resistance, first, the resistance of their basic resists, and then, the added bonus of AV resistance to secondary effects.
This mistake could have easily been made in the coding, causing the resistances to reduce end drain.
Alrighty, that's my theory, I'm gonna let it out there for a while. Please comment. 
Why did Cuppa jo edit the topic so statesmans name is no longer in it?
For some reason that really annoys me.
reply to post in general..
End drain is secondary effect of ele attactks. For a Defender thats a secondary effect on a secondary power.. By design it will not be as effective as a blasters. I have both and ele blaster and an ele def and on both againt most leuits and Boss mobs once their end is low I have no trouble keeping it low to 0 and neither of them have endreduce slotted.. I have tracted this effect by the fact they either only use their lesser attacks and / or stand waiting for end to use their bigger which does not happen once in low end and I keep them their..
Maybe some mobs need to be looked at (I recall MR.Taxi saying no effect on fake nem. and I know for a fact its very effective on tsoo sorcs)
As far as AV jsut as no single controler can effectively hold an AV and no one single damage dealer can effectively take done an AV. A lone ele balster is not going to see major end drain... firstly i wager since they are AV they recover faster the average bosses.. Second States has already said this.. I am not saying it does not need to be looked at.. I am saying anyone who thinks their single lone hero should be able to the single crux of taking down and AV better have a hell of a team backing him / her up debuffing , buffing, damaging, holding etc et al... else they need a reality check.. At least in with the current AV model.. What this game needs is AV for the soloist.. Call them Villains toss out some solo arcs that wont allow you to take a team have option at contact to set the contact as s team contact or solo contact (else when offered contacts choose team contact and solo contact) then if single at is useless against the Villian we got a complaint..