RE: Statesmans Comments on Electric Blasters
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-10-07 24:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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#1 End drain only works if they're fully drained, partial, it's a no go.
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Ooops. That's not true. Some AV powers require an amount of Endurance - so that if the AV doesn't have it - he can't use it. So bringing one down to 0 isn't exactly necessary to have an impact.
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Hate to burst your bubble, but this statement is false. I can drain a mob (not just an AV, but ANY mob) to zero endurance, but as soon as their end bar has ANY blue in it they are immediately able to fire off any power in their repatoire that has cycled. Go fight the fake nemesis if you don't believe me.
WV
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Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
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Statesman, this is exactly why, in another thread, Im asking you and your team to put in words what endurance drain is supposed to be doing and how effective individual endurance drainer should be.
In one line of questioning we get the impression that its OK for endurance drain to be ineffective or less effective against minions and lieutenants because it is hghly useful against bosses an AVs (not a direct quote, but several times Ive gotten this impression). In another line of questioning, youre stating that, like all other secondary effects, AVs are highly resistant to endurance drain. Which seems to indicate that its not highly effective against AVs.
Can we just get, in one place, your thoughts on exactly what the strengths and weakness of endurance drain are? How many draining heroes should be necessary against certain types of enemies (bosses and AVs)? Is it intentional that a small handful of powers carries the bulk of the endurance draining effects? Why?
First, the End bar we see might not be an acurate estimation of the End the mob really has. This is unfair, I know, but there is such a thing as time delay. So the mob might have more endurace than we think. Actually, it might have BEEN out of endurance 5 seconds ago - and your monitor only tells you now, when it just got 5 seconds worth of End back.
Second, it doesn't seem to be fair that Electricity should be rotten in PvE because it rocks in PvP - both because it is unfair to PvE:ers and PvP:ers. I can accept distinctions such as "good vs crowds" or "good vs singles", but "good in PvP" should not be one of the factors we play with here. It forces the PvP and PvE communities appart.
Say Electricity really does rock in PvP. Say it is as overpowered as people say it is underpowered in PvE (I can't tell personally, as I never played it). Then dedicated PvP:ers will take it and use it to hose others - including the few PvE:ers who wish to look what's on the other side of the fence. Meaning they may think that PvP is unfair and never try it again. This sucks.
There is no way to make the rules so that every character or power set is equal in PvP, but to purposefully make a set strong in PvP and thus weak in PvP is simply bad.
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Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
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Hmm, I don't think I've ever been in a group with an Electric Blaster, let alone a TF or Story Arc with TWO or more...
Are they hiding somewhere and all you have to do is throw up a signal or something and they'll bound forth to fight the AV? Maybe Elec Blasters are sold in Bottles somewhere and we can just add water like Sea Monkeys? I just know if I was a TF leader my first thoughts would be "Huh, I got a Fire and Energy blaster that WANT to join, but I've already got an Electric Blaster... YEAH, that's the Ticket, I'll just spam for a while and try to get another ELEC blaster or even two! so we can stop SOME of the AV's attack... once we get to him... If we ever get to him ...Dang this Paote that indian sold me is some Craaaazy tasty stuff!" 
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not cool. I've never seen devs interact with players like this dev team does. Disrespecting them is seriously uncool. Save the pie for yourself.
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Yeah, but it's not like they don't have a sense of humor either. ...ok maybe Jo doesn't seem to have one, but it shouldn't be Verboten. Heck maybe you're the only one here that doesn't have one. ...in that case.. *PPHHHBBBTTT!*
I'm might aswell add "Everything I can say, Rith_the_DM can say a few times better" to my sig and stop posting 
I'm not gonna, but I could
My main is an Elec/Elec Blaster, and I'm only lvl 22, and so far I enjoy every minute of BEING an Elec/Elec blaster.
The endurance drain is just an added bit of our goodness, but honestly, I think the strength is in our wide range of capabilities. I mean if you look at it, we're like the red mages of the game, a little bit of everything, master of none, and we got endurance drain as an added bonus.
My favorite thing to do, is activate lightning field while a tanker friend aggros, I run in and start meleeing with Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch, Short Circuit, and Lightning Ball. It honestly works well if you've got a good team.
Another thing I'm seeing is ppl complaining how useless we are vs AV. Anything SOLO against an AV isn't going to be all that, it depends on the team and its abilities, not if it has a blaster or 3 elec ones....
I may not have the higher level abilities, but from what I've got and I use, I have fun.
I'm really curious to see Stateman's next response on this topic because, when you consider his comments in the chat transcript and his follow-up here...they seem a bit contradictory, as if he's saying: Endurance drain is an outstanding secondary effect against bosses and AVs...except that AVs are naturally resistant to secondary effects...but it's still great 
$$em thumbsup
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Hate to burst your bubble, but this statement is false. I can drain a mob (not just an AV, but ANY mob) to zero endurance, but as soon as their end bar has ANY blue in it they are immediately able to fire off any power in their repatoire that has cycled. Go fight the fake nemesis if you don't believe me.
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I believe you, but I've also heard some AVs have more than the 100 endurance that heroes are awarded. This could mean that a small portion of the blue bar is worth more to an AV than it is to a hero...so they can cast more freely when they appear to be running on fumes. Just a theory of course; I still think Endurance Drain is a lackluster secondary for blasters.
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The only ones who drain end is electric users
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Not true: Controllers and Defenders with Kinetics have access to Transference, which is a superb endurance drain attack. Does anyone else know of other builds that have Endurance drain available?
It is indeed true that some of them at least have far more end than 100, just mouse over their bar before engaging them to check.
I don't remember for sure but I'm Pretty sure Antimatter had like 800ish (please don't quote me I don't know for sure I just thought I remembered that).
I'll have to take a look and see what I can find.
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States, I hate to be rude, but if you seriously think that an electric blaster's drain can be helpful againest an AV, you obviously have never played one.
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Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
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I, on the other hand, do not hate to be rude. My patience has run thin and my adherence to the standards of courtesy dwindles with it.
So, how many severals do you think there are in a group of eight? How many electric blasters are going to come along especially if you also have to bring along the three controllers it takes to make a dent?
I'll put a word in your mouth. Clueless.
Play your own game. Don't calculate it. Try it.
When they tell you endurance drain doesn't accomplish anything, go try it for yourself especially if you hear fifty people saying it. If it accomplishes something for you, tell them how you did it. That would be productive.
You are going to find, I might add, that the DAMAGE from the electricity blasters matters. The END drain does not. Give them an endurance drain like you gave to the Maltas to hit players with, where it sucks you completely dry on one hit and keeps you there. THAT would matter.
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Dude, we're not Electric blasters. We're Energy blaster that don't annoy Tankers by sending mobs flying 
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Classical, and you're right; however, we would rather you be an Ice blaster that not only does not annoy us by scattering the enemies to the for winds but also holds them still ...
Hence the discussion on secondary effects...
I think what we're most irritated about his how he blanketly stated how electric blasters aren't broke, and how many of us think we are.
I LOVE playing my blaster. I think of myself as a blastroller. I can do a ton more damage than a controller, and have a bunch of holds and hold-like abilities that alow me to control multiple mobs at once.
Another note, ever notice how the electric blasters that talk about how awesome!!!111 Havoc Punch and Charged Brawl are never past level 30? Just a comment.
I think that Voltaic Sentinel is bad.
I think that Lightning Field does NOT drain endurance like it should.
I think the electric secondary is generally worthless except for build up and power sink. (and occasionally the final hold)
I think when newer elec blasters complain about damage, they are just comparing themselves to other classes who have many more attacks. I have three attacks I use on a regular basis, Charged Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and Ball Lightning. Everything else is situational.
I can't remember where I was going with this.
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Another note, ever notice how the electric blasters that talk about how awesome!!!111 Havoc Punch and Charged Brawl are never past level 30? Just a comment.
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Oh har har har :P just HAR, Their good abilities IMHO, at least for now, and if they aren't so good post-30, then I'll just develop a new strategy for fighting.
The devs should get together with a few electric blasters (2 or 3 as a larger number is unrealistic) and make a go at some AV's.
I think that you will find that the drain on AVs could be adjusted if this is supposed to be a viable strategy.
I know our SG's Elec/Elec blaster uses his end drain abilities to solo. I've watched him make Rikti do neat things like pull out their big swords, stand there a second or two, and put them away. So it does work. I guess it doesn't work well enough for those complaining here, but it does have an effect on the game.
On the matter of AV/Monster Endurance bars, I know that Adamastor, the Envoy of Shadows and Terra all have 800 Endurance. All you have to do is hover your mouse over their end bar and it will tell you.
Neither our Blaster nor our Kinetic/Electric Defender can drain an AV reliably - it's more useful for them to spam damage or buffs/heals, respectively.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think what we're most irritated about his how he blanketly stated how electric blasters aren't broke, and how many of us think we are.
I LOVE playing my blaster. I think of myself as a blastroller. I can do a ton more damage than a controller, and have a bunch of holds and hold-like abilities that alow me to control multiple mobs at once.
Another note, ever notice how the electric blasters that talk about how awesome!!!111 Havoc Punch and Charged Brawl are never past level 30? Just a comment.
I think that Voltaic Sentinel is bad.
I think that Lightning Field does NOT drain endurance like it should.
I think the electric secondary is generally worthless except for build up and power sink. (and occasionally the final hold)
I think when newer elec blasters complain about damage, they are just comparing themselves to other classes who have many more attacks. I have three attacks I use on a regular basis, Charged Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and Ball Lightning. Everything else is situational.
I can't remember where I was going with this.
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Havoc Punch and Charged Brawl are great. I use them every fight as long as I'm sure I have my target either tesla caged or out of END. And I'm level 37-going-on-38.
Edit: I never took lightning field and respec'ed out of thunderstrike, however. I always felt those powers were lacking, but not in a radical "this needs to be changed now" way. In the kind of way a devices blaster might avoid taser kind of way.
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States, I hate to be rude, but if you seriously think that an electric blaster's drain can be helpful againest an AV, you obviously have never played one.
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Shadowhunter = drained
Nemesis Rex = drained
Bobcat = drained
Dr Vahz = drained
Psychic Clockwork King = drained
Theres 5-6 others that ive seen drained, and kept drained, that i cant think of the name of.
Electric blasters are fine, why dont you try leveling past 16 before trying to sound like youve got a clue. Any electric blaster that doesnt drain, needs to delete and reroll an energy blaster.
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I don't believe you. I faced Shadowhunter (he's a bad man) and 6-slotted end drain Short Circuit followed by 2-slotted end drain Power Sink didn't make a dent. Cycled this combo several times (long fight) with no success, even with aim, build-up, and the big accuracy enhancement. Either I was whiffing every time or he just regened it too fast for anyone to notice. Either way, end drain is pointless vs. AVs unless you got a whole squad of elec blasters...which I've never been a part or seen in game.
Maybe this is a bit simplistic of me, and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about since, as previously stated, I slot for damage (and do not have short circuit or power sink) but couldn't the whole problem be solved if Electric also had a built in effect to STOP end recharge? In every attack? Just a brief pause in end recharge would make a huge difference IMO. I know it's been suggested before, but I think if properly done it could solve the Electric blasters dillema in one fell swoop.
Electrical Blast does have a power to stop En Recovery: it's called Short Circuit.
However, that power's recovery debuff flag doesn't seem to work on ArchVillians, from what my fellow players are saying. I haven't tried it in Issue 2, but I'll be doing so soon, so I guess I'll see it for myself.
I happen to think Electrical Blast and Electrical Manipulation are both rather effective if used correctly, but I'm just one hero. Try them for yourself.
Oh, and I use Thunder Strike and Havoc Punch quite a bit; at least once a battle. When the mobs can't strike back those two attacks are very effective.
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Electrical Blast does have a power to stop En Recovery: it's called Short Circuit.
However, that power's recovery debuff flag doesn't seem to work on ArchVillians, from what my fellow players are saying. I haven't tried it in Issue 2, but I'll be doing so soon, so I guess I'll see it for myself.
I happen to think Electrical Blast and Electrical Manipulation are both rather effective if used correctly, but I'm just one hero. Try them for yourself.
Oh, and I use Thunder Strike and Havoc Punch quite a bit; at least once a battle. When the mobs can't strike back those two attacks are very effective.
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Yes I know, but I'm saying stop end reduction for a few seconds with EVERY attack...ball lightning, lightning bolt, etc, etc. As I said, I'm far from the end drain authority but it's just a thought.
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States, I hate to be rude, but if you seriously think that an electric blaster's drain can be helpful againest an AV, you obviously have never played one.
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Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
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Endurance drain is useless against Archvillians. There's no point to bothering. I'd like to see you (statesman) fight an AV as an electic blaster on god mode for awhile and see how long it takes until the drain does a thing. My guess would be at least 5-10 minutes.
I fough the clockwork king yesterday and with enough +Def inspirations I went for several minutes by myself. And he wasnt drained more than 10%. Drain is effectively usless on AVs. The only thing that matters is damage. I don't have a problem with that, but to suggest otherwise indicates a huge lack of understanding of your own game. That's a little discouraging.
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I know our SG's Elec/Elec blaster uses his end drain abilities to solo. I've watched him make Rikti do neat things like pull out their big swords, stand there a second or two, and put them away. So it does work. I guess it doesn't work well enough for those complaining here, but it does have an effect on the game.
On the matter of AV/Monster Endurance bars, I know that Adamastor, the Envoy of Shadows and Terra all have 800 Endurance. All you have to do is hover your mouse over their end bar and it will tell you.
Neither our Blaster nor our Kinetic/Electric Defender can drain an AV reliably - it's more useful for them to spam damage or buffs/heals, respectively.
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It might be true that it can be useful. I've never played an electric blaster but i can tell you that ive never seen electric secondary useful in a game situation. Ive watched high and low lvl electric blasters solo, ive never notice any difference. I also grouped with low and mid lvl electrics and again, no effect noticable. And i was looking for a difference...
What does that tell me? Not that the end drain CANT be useful, just that its not useful and not noticed even when watched closely to MOST players i know.
Now electric blasters are not terrible, just not particularly attractive (but some visuals are nice to watch). The more i advance in lvls, the less electric blasters i see, just like some other defenders/tankers/controlers power set. And when i grouped with some, i found their dmg pretty medium (i do look for things like atck rating, animation times, etc.)
Medium dmg + a secondary that most people dont like... Might want to look at the power a bit. As much as Statesman likes the idea on paper, in game to most players i know its not wanted or used as it is supposed to be...
This may have been brought up before, but Energy Absorption in the Ice Armor line also drains endurance. Granted, you are a lot more likely to find a group of eight electrical blasters, but there is another power that drains endurance. I don't follow other power sets very well, but aren't there other powers that drain endurance?
I do agree that Arch-Villains have a ton of endurance and it looks like their stamina is maxxed. I never have been able to dent it for more than a few seconds with Energy Absorption. And although AV's use a lot of endurance to use special attacks, I've never seen anything but AV's with a full or next to full endurance bar. I do admit that my experience is limited to Dr. V, Clamor, Vandal and Hopkins. (Monsters Kraken, Adamastor and Babbage if they count too)
I forgot where I was going with that, but my point is that you don't necessarily have to team with just electrical blasters to drain endurance.
The Dark Blade
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Having my main toon as an ele/ele blaster I think this is a great idea, to have the end-stopper on every attack. Just a minute percentage, but if that's all we're attacking with it adds up.
Realistically - you're just zapped with say, ZAPP (the greatest sniping power EVAR) and suddenly you just jump right up and say "wow, there's the hero get her!" it's not gonna happen! You're gonna say, "holy crap! I just went down to less than half my hp in ONE freakin' hit! I can't do anything just because it's so freaking awesome!"
Okay so that's my semi-fictional account of what should happen but still....
I love my ele blaster. I do feel a bit too exposed and vulnerable when I have to get in too close and use short circuit, which I do have, which does a great job - when it hits. I am not playing a Scrapper. I don't want to be close to everything. I'd far rather play sniper at a distance...
But I've never noticed a single significant end drain on ANY of my powers on ANYthing - minions or up. I agree that the tactic of just piling on the damage where it counts is the best thing in that case, until they stop nerfing the end drains and allow us to do our jobs...
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Repurposed
War1911 obviously did one of two things.
He either went into a mission at boss-end with side-kickable teammates to see ER like that ( was seven or so levels above the AV's ) or he's an out and out liar, (Like a good republican ) and he simply made those statements sans the actual facts in the matter.
War, don't make claims like that and then a blanket statement like "play past 16th before you try to talk like you know something." The arguments put forth here by the true tesla gods are insightful and pertinent.
ED does very little in combat, mostly because combat is too swift to take into account their drain, and partially because as stated, AV's will go down firing their best shot at you, regardless of ED drain. Thus there is very little reason to slot anything but damage. The Electric blaster's only saving grace at this point is a TC that as we all know won't work on most combatants who are bosses or better.
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#1 End drain only works if they're fully drained, partial, it's a no go.
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Ooops. That's not true. Some AV powers require an amount of Endurance - so that if the AV doesn't have it - he can't use it. So bringing one down to 0 isn't exactly necessary to have an impact.
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If a power requires 15% of a mob's power bar to use then you must drain that target to under 15% to deny it to him. Contrast that to any other secondary effect which has immediate results upon application. Knockback occurs and the target wastes time standing up each and every time you succeed at knocking it down. Slowing immediately reduces how often abilities recharge and how often attacks come. Extra damage leads directly to a shorter fight. Only drain requires multiple applications to get to the point where you're denying the target capabilities, and in the case of AV's they get back endurance so quickly that it is highly unlikely that you're going to ever deny them the use of a power.
I fought Nemesis Rex just the night before last while playing my Radiation/Electrical Defender and I can assure you that draining played absolutely no role in defeating it. My damage was the only significant contribution I made.
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