RE: Statesmans Comments on Electric Blasters
By
123456789,
Posted on: 2004-10-07 24:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I have never played an electric blaster but I've teamed with one and their end drain ability is worthless, by the time they even got someone half down (one boss in a room full of badguys) I had killed everyone else and was almost done with that one. I think the end drain should be significantly increased or just up their dmg output, whatever so they aren't nerfed from the start.
Who knows why Cuppa does anything? Seems childish and unprofessional to go around monkeying w/ threads that ARE on topic and ARE about CoH. I recon she couldn't find a flame here so, changing the title was all that was left.
/shrug
As to the fake nemesis. I know movement powers are inherent to mobs (such as a shocker flying) but a fake nemesis can do de-solid (phase shift) with Zero or at least Next to Zero endurance. This really ticks me off! When Statesman puts, "Mobs require a certain amount of end to use powers." I wonder if he means ONE END?!?!?!
WereVampire
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
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Why did Cuppa jo edit the topic so statesmans name is no longer in it?
For some reason that really annoys me.
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That re-naming was uncalled for. This thread is addressed to Statesman...so his name is in the thread title. What part of that required moderation? 
How about this: Drop the end drain all together and let us disorient the opponents for a bit after each shot. I know I'd sure as heck be dizzy if I'd just been electrocuted.
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..., but it's potentially far more lethal than the other secondary effects. If that mob is at 0 En, he's done -- ...
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hmm... if that mob is at 0 HP he's done...\
so in my book extra damage as a side effect is way more powerful...
Give electricity it's own damage type and make all robotic type mobs "HIGHLY VULNERABLE" to electrical damage
I dont get it anyways... exposure to electricity wares you down?... if a droid is exposed to electricity his batteries are drained?... Huh... yeah... I dont think so...
Wow. Everybody sure got in an uproar here over us elec blasters. Well, I guess I should throw my two cents in. After all, I've spent countless hours tweaking my main to exactly the way I want.
The electric set rocks. There is no two ways about it. I've played other blasters (yes, past 20) and I've tried all the ATs. I love my scrapper, and believe it or not, I picked Katana/Dark Armor just cause everyone keeps complaining about it. I picked the electric blaster because everyone kept talking about how much of a challenge it was to make it work.....and guess what? It WORKS.
The drain brings the pain. Short Circuit is my bread and butter, and in my opinion, it's the best power in the whole game. I don't care if it is melee range.....just hop in there and hit it! Once it fires (it's non-interruptable) it doesn't matter if you DO get stunned.....cause they can't do anything about it. A complete boss drain is do-able.....VERY much so at 27. Just go get your single origin drains. I picked the energy set as secondary for Power Boost. I was hoping it would work like the description outlined and sure enough......Power Boost + Short Circuit has got to be one of the most awesome combos in the game. Tanks.....Warhulks......Vamps.....it don't matter. Once the blue is gone, you can stand there and talk smack for a good 5 or 6 secs before they get a tick back. There is nothing gimped about an elec blaster in the least.
As for the AV issue. No....you can't drain em with one SC, but you can really start messing with their attacks. Personally, as a blaster.....I'd be out of my freakin' mind to try to solo an AV. I really don't think any AV was designed to be soloed. If you watch them during a battle, they WILL expend different amount of blue for different attacks. That means just the endurance drain alone can cause them problems. I don't think States was trying to justify a team of 4 elec blasters Vs. the AV. He was just saying they can effectively disrupt his attack sequence.
Reguardless, I just don't see any treaking necessary for the elec AT. They are rock solid as is. A little tougher to get to 20 or so....but well worth the wait.
I have to agree with the OP. Just looking at the Electric Primary the end drain is really pretty weak. Sure, Short Circuit can drain a lot of end but it requires melee to use. Try missing a freakshow tank with it and see how long you last at melee range against him (and I just mean red or orange like you might find in a solo mission). And you better not miss against a LT or boss that can chain holds (lots of those 20+) or you are going down for the count.
As for the arguments about increasing our powers making the enemies too strong:
I don't see that going both ways at all. There are level 15 bosses in SC casting fire imps (level 32 controller power) and then throwing fire blaster attacks. There are crey bosses with defender, tank, and blaster abilities. And then we have sappers which have a end drain that puts any electric blaster to shame. Obviously there is a seperation between the powers we have and the powers enemies have, so make electric blasters primary better.
I tried end draining Dr. V, Babbage, and the Clockwork King back in the day before I "learned my lesson" that Short Circuit was ineffective against AVs and Monsters. I don't know how that one guy drained 6 AVs but he must be amazing. I could barely see the end bar move myself.
I have played every type of blaster and I can see a noticeable weakness in my electric blaster. Granted he is only level 26 (please no flames) but he just isn't as effective as my other blasters. Maybe it is my play style or maybe I just suck as a blaster but that is how I see it.
-AZ
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If you watch [an Arch Villain] during a battle, they WILL expend different amount of blue for different attacks. That means just the endurance drain alone can cause them problems. I don't think States was trying to justify a team of 4 elec blasters Vs. the AV. He was just saying they can effectively disrupt his attack sequence.
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You mean disrupting in the sense of taking away so much end that the AV can't use his powers, right? I don't see how draining some end will provide a disruption when 10% of an AV's blue bar represents 80 Endurance. Unless AV's spend more to use powers than we do, then there aren't any powers that cost more than 100 End to use. It would appear the sole purpose of giving them 800 Endurance is to make Endurance Drain less effective against that class of enemies. Oh yeah...and their extra resistant to all secondary effects...so AV's have that going for them too.
How does any of this sound useful, let alone "outstanding"?
Well I'll throw in my own experiences ...I have a level 41 elec/dev blaster as my main...and I have all my elec attacks slotted for 1 end drain and 5 damage...except short circuit which is 6 slotted end drain. (using 3 slot TD as my accuracy aid.) I cloak in and lay mine for alpha strike and short circuit them as it goes off, what the mine doesn't defeat outright the end drain has crippled any ability for a counterattack...so they generally stand there for a few seconds waiting for end to return, voltaic sentinel and followup attacks prevent this from happening...they remain helpless generally....lts and bosses are not usually fully drained, but their attacks cost more endurance for specials...so they generally use a lesser attack instead. usually by the time the survivors of the initial strike close in I have another short circuit ready, and the second will always completely drain even bosses (up to +2 levels) That is the usual effect of my fights when soloing
AVs have a similiar issue...but it takes a lot longer and not possible solo...but slowing the AVs end recovery is possible with two elecs and the AV will be reduced to weaker attacks as he burns himself out.
My Short Circuit allows me to stand in a pack of mobs(+2) with little fear, because it is very accurate by itself and WILL drain them to helplessness.... I rarely die in melee because of this. But I will note that I need stealth of some kind to close in when I'm solo to get the important first Drain off on the group and I usually use other elec attacks and Tesla cage to stop those the drain missed or were just out of range. it takes some forethought is all. Any team that I've been on has been very happy with the drain...and surprised at its effects. I have found elec/dev at least to be the best suited for tactical fighting either solo or as a group...and probably PvP but thats not really my thing.
Hope this is Helpful 
101 Elec/dev Blaster 41st
Polarity Ice/elec Blaster 34th
Hematite Stone/stone Tanker 23rd
...and many others
Pixel, I hate to be argumentative, but everything you are posting seems to go completely contradictary to what every other person in the thread is stating. Red and Orange bosses completely drained in ONE Short Circuit? Not that I don't believe you, but it has never done so for me when I use the power (Six slotted w/ End Drain).
AV's, we all can agree here, are completely immunized to our attacks. I work until midnight CST, but after I get home tonight I"d be happy to copy Mr. Taxi to test and help try to drain an AV...but I'm not real confident it would happen. ESPECIALLY if the AV tries any of those "Damage the heroes" tactics. LOL
WV
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
I wanted to throw in a additional note here...I made a demo of myself and one controller taking down Terra, Note at the time Smoke Grenade still was granting its major accuracy debuff which made this even possible, I'm at work at the moment But if I recall correctly By the time Terra fell "She" was at roughly 1/2 end because I kept halting her end recovery and she continued to weaken as she continued to attack...I'll try to locate that demo and make it available as a cohdemo file for those who are interested If I find if my memory is faulty as to the details I'll come back and post that here instead. 
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a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).
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Ugh. So not only do I need to join a group that has other blasters, they need to be elec blasters?
We have often heard the assertation "Well, just as a fire blaster is best (among blasters) for taking out a group of minions, an Elec blaster is best for taking out bosses and AVs." But now you're saying the elec isn't even good at that unless you have two of them.
Meaning that elec blasters aren't minion killers or boss killers. I'm okay with my secondary only being useful against bosses and such, but it has to actually be useful against them.
There is no other archtype build that requires someone else in your group to have the exact powers you do in order to be effective. It's particularly silly to make this a component of a build that is already unpopular.
So far, the only thing I've heard is that in higher levels, an e/e blaster might be able to pull off end drains and that the entire tactic requires a stealth power pulled from the pools and a single specific power, namely Short Circuit. That, and the fact that the tactic generally should be done with another electric.
Now, I don't dispute that Short Circuit might be the end-all be all of the endurance hosing game, but to justify the usefullness of an AT type on one specific power is silly.
The fact is that half of this discussion seems to be about whether the secondary effects have ANY effect on mobs in the game, and the other is about whether Short Circuit really is effective against AV's...
The fact is that the secondary effects are an interesting footnote to a battle and have marginal at best effects on what happens. The differences between secondary effects are so profound that it borders on absurd to even do the comparrison.
If I want to keep a mob standing around looking silly, I'd rather just make a mc controller.
Also, I'm currious about all the higher level e/e's here, how many mobs can you end-stun at a time? It seems to me like you're having to focus everything on one mob to keep it from being able to recoup end while it's minions are wailing on you...
Heya ...Short Circuit has pretty good "blast radius" effect which extends well outside of melee range as well. anything within that radius Will be drained (using my above example) to helplessness except lts and bosses may have a sliver of end left...which follow up electric attacks will finish.
I see many, many posts here complaining about end drain being useless against AVs. And I agree that I wouldn't mind seeing AV's be slightly more vulnerable to end drain.
But frankly AVs are a pretty minor part of the game overall. A much more important factor, for me, is that end drain is terrific against bosses. You can completely lock down a red or purple boss using end drain, and simultaneously do blaster-level damage in the process.
Bosses are usually a much bigger threat than their minions, so the ability to shut a boss out of the fight after he makes one or two attacks and do significant damage at the same time is quite nice. That was part of Statesman's point; end drain is not useful against minions, and only mildly useful against lieutenents, but is a boss-killer.
So frankly I don't think end drain is "broken", assuming you fight bosses on a regular basis. The only adjustment it could really use, in my opinion, is to tone down AV end and end recovery somewhat. If I were redesigning the powers from scratch, I'd also reduce the number of melee powers in the electric secondary, but that's not a huge issue for me.
My two cents
Thanks for the reminder, I haven't played my e/e blaster in ages.
With end recovery as it is and the fact that many mobs use marginal/no end for powers, how do you keep em at 0?
I could see you being able to keep 2 at 0 end, but unless there's a negative end value, I don't see being able to keep them standing around for long...
Still, one highly powerful power doesn't change the fact that the powerset relys on one power for any use out of its secondary effects and that it is further limited since that power requires a delivery system (stealth, etc.).
It's like dropping a nuclear bomb with a biplane. It's possible to do successfully, but needlessly dangerous...
Okay, probably a stupid idea but I'm bored at work so what the hey. Earlier in this thread I rehashed an idea that I had heard somewhere else: making every attack power actually STOP end recovery for a couple of seconds. A couple of people liked the idea but one person pointed out how annoying it would be when villians ALSO got the ability.
Okay, stupid idea time. What about a new enhancement? Call it, I don't know, Endurance Recovery Freeze? Say for each one slotted in an attack power you get a 1 second stop to endurance recovery (not sure what the exact number would be for each type of enhancement...just tossing out a number). People who WANTED to go for end drain could slot them at the expense of some damage potential. People like me who just care about damage could ignore them. I myself can see several problems with the idea (why should we have to slot ANYTHING to make what should already be a viable secondary useable), but it's just a suggestion anyway.
Like I said, stupid idea I know. Just thought I'd toss it out there and let everyone rip it to shreds or ignore it completely.
As far as Short circuit goes...it is a very powerful standalone power that recharges fairly quickly...after its initial Drain they are unable to recover end for a few seconds...using other electrical attacks I can keep knocking those starting to recover back to 0 very easily, and Voltaic sentinel does a pretty job if it has a drain slotted too so I can keep draining lts and bosses and keeping them at 0 while I tend to the minions
As far as basing yourself around a single power...many powersets rely on one or two critical powers as well...so its hardly unusual.
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Okay, probably a stupid idea but I'm bored at work so what the hey. Earlier in this thread I rehashed an idea that I had heard somewhere else: making every attack power actually STOP end recovery for a couple of seconds. A couple of people liked the idea but one person pointed out how annoying it would be when villians ALSO got the ability.
Okay, stupid idea time. What about a new enhancement? Call it, I don't know, Endurance Recovery Freeze? Say for each one slotted in an attack power you get a 1 second stop to endurance recovery (not sure what the exact number would be for each type of enhancement...just tossing out a number). People who WANTED to go for end drain could slot them at the expense of some damage potential. People like me who just care about damage could ignore them. I myself can see several problems with the idea (why should we have to slot ANYTHING to make what should already be a viable secondary useable), but it's just a suggestion anyway.
Like I said, stupid idea I know. Just thought I'd toss it out there and let everyone rip it to shreds or ignore it completely.
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I like that idea, it's good.
and it solves the primary problem with endurance drain. It's EXTRAORDINARILY temporary.
Plus, it was stealth nerfed when Issue 2 gave mobs faster recovery.
When I first started playing the game, I spent a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons of the various secondary effects of the blasting powers available.
I play an Empathy/Electric Defender as my main. He was built with the intention of being a purely support character.
The premise was that by reducing the endurance of the enemy, it would serve to hinder their ability to use various attacks, thus affording my teammates a greater chance of sucess with an enhanced level of safety.
I have noticed that the endurance drain applied to my targets seems to be out of scale with the damage. I've tried to compensate by slotting endurance drain enhancers, but the effect seems to be so minimal that it's counter-productive to do so.
I have noticed however, that occasionally there seems to be a tertiary effect associated with the electricity blasting set I have not seen elsewhere. On occasion, I will see the target do an animation that resembles the siezing effect one would expect with a large amount of current.
I have often been able to take advantage of this momentary stunning effect, and would like to see it more often.
Could we perhaps have an enhancement of some type for this effect? Or is it directly proportional to the damage, or endurance draining potential?
Given the nature of electricity, one would surmise that this seizure like motion is the illustration of WHY the electric blasting set drains endurance, and would suggest that perhaps the endurance draining qualities should be more closely tied to this effect.
It would appear that the net drain on enemies endurance is however dis-proportionate to the primary effect, unlike other blasting sets.
Perhaps it would be beneficial to re-evaluate this effect on the test servers?
My suggestion would be to start with making the amount of endurance drained 20% of the damage inflicted before applying modifiers such as enhancements and resistances, and then adjust this number according to your findings.
If the stunning effect is intentional, the duration should be proportional to the amount of endurance drained to reflect their relationship. My suggestion is to make it approximately one half second for every 3 points of endurance drained.
By enhancing this 3rd tier effect, you can compensate for the apparent inbalance with the 2nd.
Actually, the shocking effect is graphical.
Now, if a villain were considered defeated when EITHER health or endurance bar was at zero.... THEN we'd have something.
Knock him out with damage or knock him out with fatigue; dead or alive, the bad guy is coming quietly.
100k Freedom Influence says it'll never happen. Takers?
Wow, lot of stuff I'd like to comment on.
First off, Pixel can definately drain bosses of up to about +2 in one shot- he's got Power Boost, which adds 3 grey Single origin drainers to -all- powers for about 15 seconds. He'll still have the keep-at-zero issues as the rest of us, but he can most certainly one shot everying in PBAoE, and probably keep them down for about 5 seconds or so (at a guess). This sort of one-shot is -only- possible for elec/energy, of which there are even fewer than elec/elec. As for why elec/energy has a notibly higher draining potential than elec/elec....take that one up with the devs.
Secondly, I personally think boss end drain is very -very- possible. IN fact, with my latest respeced into power combo that I figured out, I can do it without so much as getting a hit against me. SS+ stealth, activate Aim, turn on whirlwind, short circuit (timing is mildly tight), turn on Lighting Field, turn off Whirl, slam with Power Sink and be ready to Short Circuit again asap. Using this I can usually solo two even level bosses, though if there are any others in the near vincity I am in -serious- trouble (this includes minions). Tricky, requiring no less than 6 powers, and not reliable (Sc can miss, both bosses can tick up inbetween lighting field ticks- even if all hit-, all sorts of potential issue), and usually requires a two-slotted electric fence rapid-fired to stop them form running out of Melee range.
Elec does not hold bosses as well as ice, but it -can- disable all bosses in melee range (using power sink) just as well. And for the true power elec, a 6-slotted Power Sink -will- drain an even con boss to zero, followed by a SC to keep him there for a little while.
The biggest issue, in my mind, is the 'little while'. Short of SC, there is no other -recovery power in either the primary or secondary lines (discounting TB< because that's hardly a once a fight power). Lighting Field, which reads sort of like a power to keep them at zero, does not reliably do so with 1 acc and 5 end drain, agaist -1s. By reliably, I mean more than 15 seconds more than half the time (by my testing on Test). Yes, since elec's main strength is boss/lt only groups, fights do most definatley last more than 15 seconds, and unless you're switching targets quickly and lucky on top of it, you cannot keep more than -perhaps- two foes entirely drained- and if one of them stuns, sleeps, or holds you, they _will_ be back up at 'fighting end' in less than 5 seconds, regardless of SC.
A subissue is that fully drained mobs are not disabled or harmed in any other way, and almsot always do one thing- get the hell out of there. And the minute they're outside of melee range you're without recourse, because they sure aren't goign to stay drained if there are more than 2 of them (again, minions included). In fact, without an AoE immoblize you're kind of in trouble- and since you can't drain till 22 (assuming end drain SOs are available at contacs), exactly how many AoE immoblizers do -you- know who can't Hold at least as efficently?
But, hell, I can solo 2 even con bosses if they've got a minion friend, and I can do it without much risk. I usually get hit 2-3 times by the bosses, but over a 30-45 second fight that's not bad. Voltaic Sentiel even helps a little, when it doesn't wander off and try to make friends with that mob of 40 guys over there (which is a Pet problem, but most other pets don't wander -and- focus all aggro on the caster). Yeah, I have a lot more issues iwth a lot of mobs than many many people, but every once in a while....it's fun to be elec.
Frankly, I think there are a lot of things that need more work than elec. I'm glad that MA, Katana, and Dark Miasma got some love, and I'm very excited that the tanker AT (and hopefully specificly ice/earth) is getting look and work and stuff. I hope the devs will work at it, I hope that they will change stuff to make the game fun for more people.
I'd love some (minor) changes to elec- modify VS (frankly, I can't think of any change that would not at least be neutral), add a chance of -recovery to most or all powers (just a small chance would make a huge difference), maybe some minor increase on end drain, and can the end drain on SC at least be upped to that of Power Sink or Transference (considering it's the best end drainer of the primary line, not including TB, and there are at least 5 powers off the top of my head which do it better).
The reason behind this thread is quite simple. Statesman stated that end drain was outstanding vs Archvillans. Outstanding implies that it works on a level that makes it a -desirable- option, regardless of anything else. From even minimal testing, and I've attacked an AV with a kinetics defender and a fellow elec/elec, it appears that end drain is noneffective vs AVs. With 3 heavy draining attackers close to even level, we could barely even dent one. Admittedly, we weren't using Short Circuit, but I sure was using Thunderous Blast and Power Sink. Any stratagemn that would require more than 3 charecters of a specific type vs one foe....wow. Why not jsut grab 3 controllers with pets (esp gravity) and spam holds so the AV doesn't get a single attack off, ever? 3 controllers are certainly easier to find than 3 electric blasters (if anyone interprets this as a desire to nerf controllers, you're on some pretty good crack).
Exactly how much end drain for an 'outstanding' effect?
Personally, I find this the latest in some very inconsinstant answers and a whole lot of no responses with regards to end drain. I do feel that I am within reason to ask for a simple, consistant response- and I really think most people would agree that comparing Statesman's latest two responses when compared with his comment durring the Q&A chat, that's not a consistant response.
I'm not expecting tweaks, as I said in my other post- though I do think elec needs some help. What I would like is a couple of honest, long, explaining posts from the devs with regards to end drain and electricity- what exactly were thier designs? Failing that, I'd like them to stop claiming utility that does not exist- PVP functionality that may never come to fruition, or the high usefullness of end drain vs AVs. If we are good...fine. But when the devs throw us bones that we can't rely on, well, frankly, i'ts kind of insulting. It's like telling phase shifters 'Well, with a high end cost and high activation time it's costly, but at least you can walk through walls!'.
It's just not cool.
Edit: I was unable to do the AV end drain test tonight due to unexpectedly being called into work (damn you real life!), but I'm definately still up for it. Seeking any and all electric blasters, kinetics defenders, and a Fire or Ice tank, for end drain testing purposes. IF the devs are wrong (and I do think they are), wouldn't it be nice to be able to have pretty decent proof of it?
Crenson, sounds like speculation on your part...but I'd like to see the numbers. Heck, any combo that relies on Whirlwind is gonna be a hoot to watch implemented. (read: meet ya at the hospital)
Yeah, I didn't factor in the power boost he was using. Sorry 'bout that. Power Boost is the meanest mammer to ever Jam a Mammer. Heheh. Using the Energy Secondary you can turn any blaster....ANY BLASTER....into a damaging machine that will out melee damage wise any scrapper on the block.
I didn't believe it until I was helping a blaster on test and got to watch him 3 shot a boss +4 levels. Woah baby!! Plus he could stun them almost 100% of the time. Rockasaurus Rex!
Which brings us to Test server. I'll be off today after 6PM CST and able to provide a Kin/ Elec 'Fender on test with which we can try to drain an AV. I can also make video of the whole ordeal, so let me know when and where.
Mr. Taxi
aka WereVampire
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
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Why did Cuppa jo edit the topic so statesmans name is no longer in it?
For some reason that really annoys me.
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oh! I was wrong, it was a board rule, and I broke it! Please forgive me devs! I will have electric investigated, even at the cost of my account, but I won't break the rules!