RE: Statesmans Comments on Electric Blasters

The trick I have found is go ahead and make the cohdemo file, then use fraps on that. Comes out much smoother than just using fraps in game.

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Energy gets 3 single target hits and a snipe

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And an aoe (Explosive Blast).

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The trick I have found is go ahead and make the cohdemo file, then use fraps on that. Comes out much smoother than just using fraps in game.

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The thing is, we won't see end and health bars, so it'd be pointless.

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Remember that Statesman is eating pie. If you were eating pie then you would be able to drain an AV with friends too.

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What the hell does that mean?!

Not that I'm defending eating pie, I don't know what that means... online at least (he said hoping to avoid sarcasm)

you team with the wrong elc blasters i can drane a hole room in 1 skill

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Don't rule out that Short Circuit stops (supposedly) end regen. So, if you can get them to zero, (AND keep them from running away) then you can KEEP them at zero. They cannot regen from powers such as Stamina and such. (Unless they choose to let these powers and inspirations override the ability of SC to stop regen)

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Best way to thinkj about short circuit is like a toglge power that takes away exactly normal end regen, at the same time. They most certainly do keep regenerating from other powers, but since it disables the regular end regain..well..

TO clarify- Stamina recovers end at about 75 % of normal end rate, when 6 slotted. So end recovery rate is 175%...or, after, SC, 75%. This has a noticable impact- with only 75% recovery and full drain, a large number of attacks can not be used. That does not mean total lockdown but a bit of a dent.

FOr, of course, 3 seconds on even cons. Which is one hell of a sticking point. Not very good, because it's the only power that even can do this, it scales upward horribly....

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>> "TO clarify- Stamina recovers end at about 75 % of normal end rate, when 6 slotted. So end recovery rate is 175%...or, after, SC, 75%. This has a noticable impact- with only 75% recovery and full drain, a large number of attacks can not be used. That does not mean total lockdown but a bit of a dent."

Oh so wrong. Where did you get your information? I did a lot of tests on the Training server with Stamina and different socketing combinations.

Full Endurance Recovery times without any toggles powers on
Without Stamina: Empty to full 60 seconds.
With Stamina 4 sockets: Empty to full 43 seconds
With Stamina 6 sockets: Empty to full 41 seconds

(60 - 41) / 60 = 32%

Sorry. 32% is no where near your 75%.

On my Regen Scrapper I have Quick Recovery 6 socketed and Stamina 4 socketed. I may have nearly a 75% (or better) endurance recovery but stamina alone does not come close to 75%. More like 35%.

In PvP I would love to see a comparible level Electric Blaster take down a Regen Scrapper of that combo. Won't happen. The endurance drain secondary effects (or Powersink) will not be enough.

I totally disagree with you Statesman that an Electrical Blasters secondary effect of endurance drain is useful. It is not. Having played through so many levels I have never seen that effect make any difference. Others may like it but I have never seen it useful.

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Full Endurance Recovery times without any toggles powers on
Without Stamina: Empty to full 60 seconds.
With Stamina 4 sockets: Empty to full 43 seconds
With Stamina 6 sockets: Empty to full 41 seconds

(60 - 41) / 60 = 32%

Sorry. 32% is no where near your 75%.

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I'm assuming, here, but it's possible the math used was:

41 / 60 = 68%

.... So as to represent the fraction of normal recharge time.

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I haven't read every page in this thread yet, so I apologize if some points were made before. I am a bit perplexed about these concerns over Elec's secondary effect. Am I missing something, or do any of the other blaster primaries have really earth shattering secondary effects?

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The key thig that most of the posters (and I agree, to a lesser extent) are commenting on is that elec's end drain is only effective if it drops a foe below the activation cost of a given power. With villans' low end cost powers and quick regeneration, and the weak drain from most of elec's primary attacks, the secondary effect does not in -any- way apply, unless you are using one of the heavy draining attacks (specificly, Short Circuit).

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Typos aside, I applaud how well-put and in-depth that lengthy post is, Crenson.

Sorry, I do tend towards the overly verbose. And I also typo quite a bit...I have a thing about rereading and reworking posts to check for mistakes. If I do that..well, I end up rewriting the entire thing. But I thank you for the compliment.

And as for the 75%- a fully 200% of end recovery would pull out to around 30 seconds for full recharge. half of that increase, 45 seconds. Half again, 37.5, which is moderately close to your 41 second number- close enough, in my mind, to be within the margin of error. However, I pulled those numbers from a post on Stamina and Quick recovery, so I cannot vouch for thier accuracy. As the exact numerics weren't the point of the post, I did not take the time to fact-check them.

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Sorry, I do tend towards the overly verbose. And I also typo quite a bit...I have a thing about rereading and reworking posts to check for mistakes. If I do that..well, I end up rewriting the entire thing. But I thank you for the compliment.

And as for the 75%- a fully 200% of end recovery would pull out to around 30 seconds for full recharge. half of that increase, 45 seconds. Half again, 37.5, which is moderately close to your 41 second number- close enough, in my mind, to be within the margin of error. However, I pulled those numbers from a post on Stamina and Quick recovery, so I cannot vouch for thier accuracy. As the exact numerics weren't the point of the post, I did not take the time to fact-check them.

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I elect Crenson as Leader of the Electric Cause!

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#1 End drain only works if they're fully drained, partial, it's a no go.


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Ooops. That's not true. Some AV powers require an amount of Endurance - so that if the AV doesn't have it - he can't use it. So bringing one down to 0 isn't exactly necessary to have an impact.

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I would accept this as a counter argument if mobs had a lot of powers that require more than two ticks of power regen.

Seriously. Grab a coder by the neck, stick him on an internal server, get him to code in a flag that will log when an NPC wants to use a power, but doesn't have the endurance for it. Play for a week and count the times that log triggers off on one hand. Bonus points if you also log the time it takes between that "wanting to use the power" and when it's able to get the power off. I guarantee you that it will never be more than 4 seconds, and will be a rare occurrance.

Now, log damage inflicted by a stamina'd mob that is started at full drain, vs. one that you don't touch with drain. I think you'll find that due to the very high damage value of "brawl-equivalent" NPC attacks, the drain reduces damage over time by AT MOST 20%. Now go see how well a knockback can keep something on it's back, or look at the values of slows. Bummer, eh?

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...Now, log damage inflicted by a stamina'd mob that is started at full drain, vs. one that you don't touch with drain. I think you'll find that due to the very high damage value of "brawl-equivalent" NPC attacks, the drain reduces damage over time by AT MOST 20%. Now go see how well a knockback can keep something on it's back, or look at the values of slows. Bummer, eh?

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Even if you assume the 20% number is correct (which I have no idea if it is), the above argument overlooks that draining endurance prohibits all non-damage effects as well. So bosses/lieutenents drained of all endurance lose all their toggle powers and can't hold/sleep/stun/do AE attacks, etc. Note that even knockback won't turn off toggle powers like disorient fields, stealth and whirlwind. End drain is the only secondary blaster effect that will turn off a toggle power, short of killing the opponent of course.

So straight damage mitigation is only part of the story, even if you assume the damage mitigation isn't high enough.

My biggest beef...Is that even though if we were to successfully drain any villian of power enough to make NONE of his powers to work,It seems to me that statesman is countering his own points on the situations.
1. he says that ATs are resistant to secondary effects.
2. he acknowledges that a single elec powerset use couldn't drain effectively enough to make a difference.
3. But he remains firm to the fact that pow drain is an "effective ability vs. ATs?"

would you play fire if it took 2 "Fire Blasters" to do any real damage?

would you play energy if it took 2 "Energy" ATs to knock an opponent back?

what about defenders.....what if bubble only worked if cast by 2 different people.

just because an ability "Could be powerful if enough people spam it" doesnt make it a valid strategy for basing your whole AT,powerset,and whole game upon.

Fact. I'm electric/devices.

I zapp,i smoke,toss down caltraps,then run/jump around using charged bolt/lightning bolt everything slotted for hella damage. I've had fire blasters compliment me on my single-target damage. Stamina keeps aim/target drone going and all I have to do is time it all right and hardly run ooe.

If i ever felt my end redux was a decent part of my character,I might slot differently. but as an electric blaster why try to drain an enemy when you can kill it quicker than you can render him useless.

That is the real debate.

Can a single electric blaster/defender drain enough end by % of each attack to render the enemy useless as compared to the damage taken by % of the enemies' total hp for each of the same attack from the blaster/defender.

the reason this is an issue is because it could be a valid point in reverse.

If damage was secondary to end drain, and I had a choice of rendering an enemy useless or doing a very small percent of damage (such as brawl for a blaster) then the decision would be based upon reduction of % damage taken vs. enemy hp %damage dealt and I would proabably pick an attempt to render the opponent useless over dealing a very minimal % of enemy hp damage.

Now you say "Well,End drain is not meant to compare with the damage dealt"

Sure this may be true....but whereas Knockback,Hold,Resist,Recharge lowering...and most of the other secondary effects are nearly GURANTEED to allow you to not take as much % of your max hp in damage in a battle...

The Electric blaster community is now being told that their secondary effect is useful......against villians that will resist it......and even then only if multiple electric ATs (or end drain power ats) are also battling the same villian.

Now,I ask you this....most leveling players do not frequently battle AVs (like on a daily basis)

they want exp....which can be better in a team vs. enemy team situation,than in AT combat.

so now even if you have your 3 or so electric/end drainers....now your chances reduce for each enemy that you're facing that 2 end drainers are going to INSTINCTIVLY attack the same enemy.

Granted,this is where organization and tactics come into play. Teamwork.

Why should the electric community be forced into "Teamwork" when blasters are the least group friendly AT in the game?

Additionally why should anyone be forced into teamwork in a game where it seems that the only other non-soloable character (controller) can render their enemies completely useless in mere button presses.

I'm not saying that electric blasters are not soloable,I'm not even saying they have a hard time....I just want my secondary effect worthwhile no matter if I use it soloing...or in a team full of scrappers....or even if there are 50 electric blasters shooting my target.

I'd fully slot Caltraps with damage SOs before I'd put a single training end drain increase in any of my abilities.

How many times have you heard your healer say "Drain it's end...hurry...I'm dying"

now how many times have you heard "Kill it fast,I'm going down"


Don't be an idiot. Don't slot for end drain.

My main is an ELEC/ELEC blaster.
I do not play one to drain END. It isnt a worth while ENDevour.
I play one for fun and because I designed a character.

That said, the END sucking for El/El blasters is pathetic. Dont give me the "I can go into the hollows at lvl 7 and reduce the END of an entre group of Outcast bosses to 0 with one power." crap. I have (recently) taken a six slotted power that drains END and I kill more AVs before I ever drain them. Groups? I only take slivers of lieutenants and MAYBE half drain minnions before they croke.

I dont play an ELEC/ELEC blaster for END drains. It just isnt worth it. They are still fun though.

I boggle that this thread still exists.

I'm not upset by it, mind you.

If boggling leads to thread necromancy, boggle not.

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I boggle that this thread still exists.

I'm not upset by it, mind you.

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It probably has something to do with CuppaJo's comments about the board mantenence not working properly lately.

I'm scared. Hold me.

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I'm scared. Hold me.

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<.<

>.>

...

Awww... again?

in testing i think it took a group of 8 end drainers to drain an AV.

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If boggling leads to thread necromancy, boggle not.

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Well, the issue was never actually resolved, so I don't feel bad about beating a still-living horse.

I'd be interested to see the results of an internal "Blaster primaries" test, much like the devs performed on the Scrapper secondaries.

Any bets on which primaries shine and which ones shudder? My vote for underdogs are electricity and ice.

Die zombie thread, DIIIEEE!!!!!
*shoots it in head*

As long as the thread is here, how about adding % chance to toggle kill as an additional secondary effect of electric attacks?

Smack 'em with an electric blast and:
<ul type="square">[*]Do some damage[*]Drain some end / futz up end recovery[*]X% chance of toggle drop[/list]
It wouldn't be useful against every mob, but there are plenty of mobs where it would be nice to have an effect like that on your blasts.

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If boggling leads to thread necromancy, boggle not.

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Well, the issue was never actually resolved, so I don't feel bad about beating a still-living horse.

I'd be interested to see the results of an internal "Blaster primaries" test, much like the devs performed on the Scrapper secondaries.

Any bets on which primaries shine and which ones shudder? My vote for underdogs are electricity and ice.

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Well, having played a Storm/Electric defender for 50 levels, I can't say I'd dislike the idea of giving Electricity Blast some love...

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Any bets on which primaries shine and which ones shudder? My vote for underdogs are electricity and ice.

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Ice, the underdog? Ice has the best single-target damage of any of the Blaster primaries..