Is PLing a Form of Cheating?

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The thing is, in the case of a game, unless the DEVs are watching for someone getting PLed so they can then have something to reference in their datamine, it would be a daunting task to just start sifting thru logs and data at characters on an individual basis in the hopes of finding multiple characters that would show up as not having activated any, or very powers, while they leveled, so they are probably just doing a general spread of leveling vs time involved ...

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As a network tech, you should be well aware that raw logs are not what people generally review. Sure some admins do when looking for something very specific, but chances are they would still filter with something like grep. Even packet sniffing, you would probably use a filter built into the sniffer. Many times, log parsers are used to generate reports, import data items into a db, and so on.

It would be impossible to convince me that any dev is looking through a raw log for anything other than possibly evaluating a situation for gm response. Even then, I would be very suprised. More likely than not, everything is dumped into a db. Someone developed a form for querying this db. I would further propose that this already includes a breakdown of ATs/powers/levels/zones/missions/what-have-you. This form input would be interpolated into the SQL/db query.

Now, tell me as a dev, who wishes to get a true picture, that you wouldn't add a where clause to the sql to remove powerlevelers and afks... by simply toggling a checkbox on the form.

I don't want to downplay the abilities of the devs at all as I really enjoy this game... but this is basic 101 type stuff. It's almost insulting to say that this can not and is not already being done.

/boggle

as in response to the person stating that you can try to do a "check" and "balance" on power output vs xp gain.. it also hard....

For instance.. I was group with a bunch of people who needed a healer.. I have a healer and group with them.. I may have use my power 1 to 2 times per battle (well organize group) but gaining a bunch of exp...

there are always "instances" that may be hard to track who is powerleveling and who is not... to sift the whole database and check what zone, what char, what location, what powers etc etc is a tedious task to do

more than likely.. they (the devs) might just put a limit distant for exp gain (like 100 feet) or something worst.

Eh I called Elmers, told em I found their dead horse....slightly bruised but I found it.

Fascinating...

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there are always "instances" that may be hard to track who is powerleveling and who is not... to sift the whole database and check what zone, what char, what location, what powers etc etc is a tedious task to do


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Yes, these are called exceptions to the rule and may be allowed through the filter, with the understanding that their affect on the stats are minor. It should be fairly easy to identify someone who gained xp without any user input, for minutes prior to and after the gain. Tada... afk tram/autofollow powerleveler filtered. Ignore the ones buffing/healing unless you want to create an sql statement to filter those by autofollow/autocast. Tada, more filtered.

Regarding "sifting" through a database... as a dev I can say that I have only done this for fun, curiosity, and debugging. Since I can make forms and resulting report templates, I am not performing any "tedious task"... that's why we have computers. They do more than allow people to play games.

I can't believe this is still going. I think now you're just arguing to argue and amused with how far you can keep this going and up your post count. Let it go, both sides have a valid reason for their beliefs. Honor that and drop it.

Go create another thread on how you think the devs are cheaters and they're all wrong for not agreeing with you and be done with it.

IMO, it is. But that's just my opinion and I'm sure there are people out there who could care less what my opinion is. I'm more concerned about what the developer opinions are. When they designed this great game, did they have sweeping visions of people standing around train stations dinging and skipping content? There is a change is the Test Server right now about Demon Spawn XP. Stateman explained how he wanted to reward heroic behavior. Is standing around a train station while someone goes and powerlevels you considered heroic behavior ? Because it certainly seems as if the developers are rewarding that.

This entire topic is a complete riot.

First of all the OP posted to shed light on something that he thought was an injustice and now is declaring victory. Well congrats. They were always planning on upping the difficulty of the late game. The reason was not PL'ing, it is because you can blast a group of 12 minions in 3 seconds. If they remove this ability will it make PL'ing impossible? Nope. There is no way to make it impossible. Well, maybe if you remove the option to SK and also make the game the same difficulty at all levels (at level 3 you can take 3 whites, and at level 50 you can take 3 whites - where's the fun in advancing in that game?)

Real life example coming up:

My level 7 hero took more than a minute to take down three even conned foes. I team him with my girlfriends blaster and sk him. She is 14. Now if she kills level 14 minions i get xp as if I were soloing +1's (in essence). The difference being that she can kill 10 in 8 seconds. He auto follows until he can get xp without sk, then he sits by the chain link fence.

As far as I read nothing that Statesmen said will change this. He thinks thats boring behavior? I think the low levels are boring.

Kudos for you. You apparently declare victory in that the late game will be harder. Harder for who? Anyone that PL's now will still be PL'ing after that change is made. The way I see it it's a case of mind your own bussiness. Someone said that something doesn't have to affect you for you to care about it. Well, again, if it doesn't affect you you should probably mind your own bussiness and do the same story arc for the umpteenth time. I myself would prefer to make a guy on friday and have him have a travel power 2 days later without playing 24 hours a day.

Oh, and by the way, I'm playing the whole time this is going on. Am I still "cheating"?

BTW, big shout out to CuppaJo, as I suspect she is the one pruning the thread. I've noticed twice where page numbers have decreased. I haven't looked back for missing posts, but if they are personal attacks, I appreciate you keeping the thread clean. I suspect we are all about argued out anyways.

Perhaps not. Statesman posted another tid bit on the subject while discussing appropriate acts of heroism (vs the endless portal spawn exploit). He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that heroes have a responsibility to act heroicly. His is the second quote below:

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Then why am I still seeing (daily) lvl 2-whatever's sitting in Peregrine Island being Power-Leveled just like they always have (wherever it was popular to

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Definitely - this is an issue I'm looking into


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Look if you crybabies can't find someone to Pl you then don't run complaining to the Devs. Just solo PL instead. It's easy and it works.

Find a Cadavar and two Mortificators. Highlight the Cadavar and setup for Autoattack. Go to bed. Wakeup 8 hours later with a levelup.

Problem solved now go back to whatever rock you crawled out from under to start this thread.

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Until you can show me that you aren't being blinded by your crusade, and can understand posts completely, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Hopefully, at some point, you will realize you are the proverbial dog chasing/bitting it's own tail.

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Hmm.
You exxagerate my position as being some sort of crusade. I'm not so concerned about what happens as to feel like it's *that* significant to me. Maybe the OP is crusading.

Personally I just aired my agreement with some points, namely when a practice bordering on exploitive play could potentially end up affecting me in how it's "fixed."

I'm not vehemently spouting a lot of irrational drivel. I'm citing a valid point: This issue could end up adversely affecting me, even though I don't participate in it.

And that's all.

regards,

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Perhaps not. Statesman posted another tid bit on the subject while discussing appropriate acts of heroism (vs the endless portal spawn exploit). He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that heroes have a responsibility to act heroicly.

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No, there shouldn't be much argument regarding that. This time it isn't someone twisting his words, they are quite clear.

But, I will say that this is the first time he has made a post like this since during beta. It does appear that he will at least be "looking into" the situation. I honestly don't know what he can do about it, beyond the overall changes to the game he had previously spoken of (which will only slow everyone down... hopefully by challenging them).

Well, good show. I think we can put this debate to rest.

EigoEahiek,

I’m sure that the designers thought about Pling issues long before I did. As I have mentioned before it is in their best interest to do so. I was outraged by what I saw as cheating and being approached by a guy that was leveling and selling characters. Frankly, I am new to the online gaming world and was shocked by the whole thing. Anyway, I’m sure that they will take steps to straighten it out.

When you step back and look at the game it’s great! The art work alone is fabulous. Sometimes I enjoy flying around and looking at what has been created. There is even fine detail in the upper buildings where no one goes. That’s quality!

I admire the designers for attempting to make an immerse world. People get into it. Sometimes players sound genuinely sad when someone dies! It’s great! Like I have said, the designers are trying to make something that is not real seem real and that’s the fun of it. Moves that break with reality help to shatter that illusion and are not fun.

I’m not on a crusade (what would be wrong with that anyway) but the thread keeps going and I’m hanging in there with it. Even this is a kind of a simulated issue of importance. Its all part of the world! Its fun!

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THEpunishcrime: where is cryptic's policy of not rewarding people for not playing the game?

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actually it has been brought up several times in sveral different phrases, most notably during the end of beta when players were all trying to discuss debt, how debt works, and different possibilities of paying off debt. the reference ofcourse to the people who somehow wanted debt to just go away over time without working it off.

but it does come off as a very "pat line" when said (even when cryptic said it) .... and a lot of times there is a huge difference between what people say they are doing .... and what they do.

such as, cryptic has said this .... cryptic has said a lot of things .... and i just don't see the way they are moving towards it. not a knock really ... but i just don't see it on most of the statements they have made about general gameplay ... most notably in their advertising of the game.

In a strange twist, I recently found two web sites that where selling characters. The customer is charged a certain dollar amount per level and so total cost is determeined by what level you want your character to be. The other site was suggesting that PLing could be a kind of job that would net 300 per week. So, there's a kind of PLing mafia out there! Amazing!

Those sites have been out for a long time. I can't believe you're still on your crusade. You are obviously doing this for the sake of argument and the fact that idiots like me that keep on responding only adds to this trash.

Like I said I'm new to the whole thing. I can't believe that someone would pay hundreds of dollors for a video game character. Its pretty unusual if step back and think about it.

My opinion:

Powerleveling is an exploit in the game. Exploits is cheating. Cheating should not be allowed.

And thats that. It doesnt matter if it effects me or not. Stop with that individual mentality. It effects CoH as a whole.

Its not a hack, mod or bug exploit so bottom line...its not a cheat its a moral issue. PLing doesn't take anything away from the people not participating. KSing isn't cheating either but it is directly interferring with another persons gameplay and in that lies the difference in the two. If my friend wants to make an alternate and lvl quickly so they may be a formidable ally and join me in battle I will PL them with no problem. The only way the effects anybody that isnt participating is the knowledge that there is some people out there getting better xp than them and just chatting while a workhorse does all the work. If it was that big of an issue I think they would put a range limit who is collecting xp that way people couldn't sit on there butt. Its a victimless crime. No harm no foul in my opinion.

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My opinion:

Powerleveling is an exploit in the game. Exploits is cheating. Cheating should not be allowed.

And thats that. It doesnt matter if it effects me or not. Stop with that individual mentality.

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The first two words in your post were the only important ones.

What is an exploit and what is a cheat is not a matter of personal opinion; it's a matter of rules laid out by the creators of the game. The creators of this game have decided that this is not against the rules. It is not necessarily what they want people to spend their time doing, but that doesn't make it a cheat, an exploit or unethical.

"In my opinion," being 7'9" tall and weighing 425 lbs. is an exploit in basketball, but until the NBA decides to make it against the rules my opinion means Shaq squat.

Have your opinion. Love it. Snuggle up with it in bed at night and talk to it about how your day went, but when it comes to jumping on here and shout "cheaters!" and "exploiters!" and "viscious immorality that effects us all!" then, please, spare us. Not everyone shares your opinion. In particular not the people who make the rules.

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It effects CoH as a whole.

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Feel free to back this up. I'm anxious to hear your reasoning, as you would be the first in this thread to provide any evidence that this is indeed the case.

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I have made several well thought out posts with many points that explain the pros and cons of powerleveling. Not ONE of my posts had it's contents contested by an anti-pl'er (unless you include the semantics one regarding the words "religious crusade").

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This cracked me up. It is your opinion that they were well-thought out. I thought opinions are supposed to stay out of this thread, right?

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Typically, posts that have no merit will be torn apart by the other side. A lack of response only shows that there was no fallacy in my logic and statements.


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Assumption can be a major fallacy, my friend. Just because you feel the need to argue for arguments sake does not mean that when some one decides to quit because a closed mind that you've won. It just means it's pointless to keep this going.

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I stand uncorrected. This means it's a matter of opinion regarding the whole topic. We can chose to agree to disagree based on that fact. I doubt anyone will sway the other's opinion. Feel free to try, I'm out unless someone can make a post worth responding to.

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For someone that is bashing opinion, you have made 3 in this post alone. Follow your own advice. I've seen those who are against put it plainly using facts. I've seen those in favor cry jealousy, name call and use arguments that are simply irrational. The 3 basic arguments seem to be
1) Your jealous. People can honestly say they know how another person feels or thinks? Throw that one out.

2) Power leveling has been going on for a long time. Traditon: the weakest of all reasons.

3) It doesn't affect you. It's a multiplayer game. Everyone is affected to a certain degree by anothers actions. It's why we have rules of conduct. False argument.

4)It doesn't say you can't do it or the it allows me to do it argument. Yeah, right. An argument that never worked when you were a kid. "But, mom, you never said I couldn't drive the car at 8!" We are adults, right? We bought this game to play, right? Any arguments about how it's fun to sit at the Tram while your hero goes from 2-50 is a semantical argument to justify behavior that is not desirable in this game.

Changes are coming. Why don't we revisit this after they do?

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Feel free to back this up. I'm anxious to hear your reasoning, as you would be the first in this thread to provide any evidence that this is indeed the case.

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It's been backed up. You guys say it doesn't affect everyone then when someone proves it you then backtrack by saying "it doesn't affect you much."
Which is it?
If you want a game where an exploit doesn't affect you play GTA 3. Then that would be true.
If you want evidence read back through the thread.

I agree with the original post, except if I have already worked my way up to 50 and really don't want to face the tedious first few levels of the game again.

I think the other thing I hate about it is people building up characters like this on generic accounts and then conveniently selling them on. I guess I don't like seeing the hard-working developers having their product being used for other people to make a quick buck. Especially when its a product this good.

Anyway, its not much of a worthy discussion any more. They're cutting PLing down severely when issue 2 goes live...

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For someone that is bashing opinion, you have made 3 in this post alone. Follow your own advice.

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Wow! Just wow! Take a breath, read my posts, think before responding. I knew that post, in particular, would cause someone to respond negatively. The fact remains that I made many valid arguments that remains undisputed, while people continue to personally insult each other. BTW, they were well thought out, concise, and even got Adlerian to acknowlegde some of my points... it wasn't an opinion that they were "well thought out".

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3 basic arguments seem to be
1) *snip*
4) It doesn't say you can't do it or the it allows me to do it argument


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Hmmm...

Beyond the obvious, some of those points are valid when you read the posts that they respond to. I mentioned 2 of those in my discussion because they were appropriate when put in context with posts prior to me.

Regardless, I think this discussion is well beyond beaten down as page 60 is starting to look just like page 2. If you care to discuss any of the points by providing new information, that hasn't been rehashed many times, please do. I welcome it and will enjoy the debate. Number 3 is still of interest to me (how the powerleveling microcosm affects the other players).