Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Here's my stance...
It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.
But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....
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States: If you ever get a chance to read this, I would like to thank you for posting a response in this thread. Not to show who is right or wrong, but just to show that you guys are paying attention to the community is awesome. 
Good job Green Jackel!
I wish that you were on champion!
How does everyone feel about the situation now?
I felt like I had to use a lot of harsh language, but it was worth it!
Also, I believe that the words cheat and exploit are pretty close. Its just a matter of word play!
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i think that each individual is paying for his her own account. and should be able to do wtf he she wants to do. and as long as it doesnt hurt you, you should but the f* out!
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Nice language there. You need to seriously calm down and show a lot more respect.
It seems to me that Statesman has satisfied both sides.
A. He said they are actively trying to discourage it by making it harder
B. He didn't call it cheating and said if it's what floats your boat, then go ahead (paraphrasing)
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It clearly goes hand in hand with Jack's Gencon Q&A session in which he was asked what an exploit was, and his reply was "I consider an exploit to be anything that rewards boring behavior."
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At the risk of replying to this before reading further to see an identical reply...
I consider doing the same missions for levels 1-20, which I have done naturally many times before, boring behavior. Therefore, I am exploiting by just leveling an alt naturally? Of course not.
How about grinding in a hazard zone to level. What could be more boring behavior than running between 5-8 spawns in rotation, "arresting" for xp? Exploit? Of course not.
How about "arresting" mob after mob in a mission that is an almost exact duplicate of one I did 5 levels ago, simply because of the lack of variety in the game's mechanics. Exploit? Of course not... "arresting" is how we level.
Obviously there is much room for interpretation in even such a straight forward quote. Open your mind when it comes to such things.
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Your analogy is a poor one. It would be more accurate to say that there are 2 people on bicycles, headed towards the same destination (in this case level 50). At some point the person being powerlevelled throws his bike into the back of his friend's truck (his friend is the powerleveller) and get's a ride part of the way.
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I don't think my analogy was poor. No more poor than yours. There is simply no perfect real-world situation that mimics the in-game tactics being discussed. Besides, had you read and understood my post, I was attempting to give a more reasonable explanation of the feelings the anti-powerlevers are experiencing. Not jealously, but disdain.
Your analogy will work just as well. If you think mine was so poor, use yours.
The end result, I have made several well thought out posts to refute points made by anti-pl people. Not one point has been under controversy. It appears when valid points are made for the powerleving side, anti-pls ignore that and stick to name calling.
Regarding the journey or destination being what's fun... that is up to the player and for no one else to decide.
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How does everyone feel about the situation now?
I felt like I had to use a lot of harsh language, but it was worth it!
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I would be suprised that a psychologist thinks that using harsh language is ever the answer to conducting a constructive discussion, much less call it "worth it".
Makes me wonder about your credibility, both of your occupational status and your abilities in that profession.
EDIT:
Statesman's post is not an admonishment of cheating/exploiting. His response purpose is obvious to any business man/woman.
Perpetual boring play results in perpetual boredom, which ultimately results in cancelled subscriptions. For those not keeping up, boring play equal less dollars.
The post-30 game is a grind. It isn't as challenging as it could be, regardless of whether you are powerleveling or not. It doesn't get harder, just longer. I hope that this does get addressed at some point, or it will fall under the same fate as he mentions (pl'ing existing or not).
Here is to hoping things get better... and to hoping others can play the game as they desire without worrying about how others are doing it.
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Good job Green Jackel!
I wish that you were on champion!
How does everyone feel about the situation now?
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I feel pretty good about the situation, Adlerian. How do you feel about Statesman's reply? I'm curious, since you've stated in this thread that you'd like to know what the developers think.
Interesting posts, thought I'd butt in my personal xp 
in power levelling. My current favorite character (about my 15-16th alt) was power levelled from 2-14. That allowed me to more quickly contribute to supergroup teams, travel about on my own etc. All of the alts I've played into the teens (only a couple were deleted before travel powers) and I was fortunate enough to fast forward to the travel power stage.
Why power level you ask? Why the heck not, it was an AT I'm very familiar with and it saved me the somewhat painful days of active leech teaming (thats just frustrating) where my character can't contribute much. After you've levelled every AT to 14 there should be an option to start new characters at that level.
On a side note I really do enjoy the game and the team aspects with my friends from rl, and I look forward to the all the changes the devs have in store for CoH over the upcoming months.
I am sorry I read most of this thread. But no one has explained how exactly do you power level. And what would be the plus in doing this besides levels. Or what would be the minus of this. It is your char.
Techno,
I used to work wit hsome of the hardest criminals in the Philly area. They tend to use a lot of colorful language to describe their criminal behavior. For instance, they might call doing drug deals "a mission" which makes it sound cool. Usually I would break down what they were doing into plain language so that they feel it. A friend of mine used to always cheat on his girlfriends and call it adventure. I explained to him just much of a lying, using, ******* that he was for making nice girls into sucks. I turns out that he got the message and stopped doing that. Its called tough love (although I hate that term)
About Statesman,
I'm happy with his response. However, I just wish that they would have a timeout on immobile characters or something. I have no desire to wade through more of Bricktown if things just get harder.
Pling doesn't hurt other players? It's the same as people buying characters. They haven't bothered to play their class, learn their AT, and develop a modicum of strategy.
I.e,, you group with them, they get you killed.
Aside from the fact that it's just gimp.
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Here's my stance...
It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.
But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....
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Some people will always have much better builds and tactics, Stateman. You can correct AT balance issues with changes to the difficulty - like making things tougher so they last long enough for tankers and controllers to matter - but if you make the game so hard to deter PLing, you'll also deter weaker players.
It'd be a good idea to simply have a range requirement on xp gains, so you can't be across an area soaking up xp; that means you have to be at the keyboard to group up and gain xp, even if you're staying out of harms way.
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Here's my stance...
It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.
But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....
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Some people will always have much better builds and tactics, Stateman. You can correct AT balance issues with changes to the difficulty - like making things tougher so they last long enough for tankers and controllers to matter - but if you make the game so hard to deter PLing, you'll also deter weaker players.
It'd be a good idea to simply have a range requirement on xp gains, so you can't be across an area soaking up xp; that means you have to be at the keyboard to group up and gain xp, even if you're staying out of harms way.
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It also means that patrol missions will suffer, "normal" hunting groups will suffer, and heroes who split up to tackle a large mission map will suffer. Reducing range will hurt vastly more players than the number of PL'er that it will "fix".
The only way you can be angry about others Power Leveling is if your jealous.
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It seems to me that Statesman has satisfied both sides.
A. He said they are actively trying to discourage it by making it harder
B. He didn't call it cheating and said if it's what floats your boat, then go ahead (paraphrasing)
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I agree completely with this. People may as they're prone to do read into something but that is exactly what he said. Neither side is wrong here, each side has reasonable explanations. The only part I didn't agree on was some people calling it cheating and comparing it to real life crime which is going too far.
It will be hard for Cryptic to find a solution the matter since the game is flawed and the reason why it drives most to pl in the first place. Most people get sick of the lower levels, I've went through them many times which I am starting to hate the teens in general.
It's going to take quite awhile though and updates to make any changes to make it worthwhile. The Hollows will be interesting probably for two weeks until that gets old for me. I hate KR with a passion and avoid that zone like the plague.
Making level 30+ more of a challenge won't solve anything unless there is some reason to make it wortwhile. There's still a lack of content for the higher levels at the moment.
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The only way you can be angry about others Power Leveling is if your jealous.
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Always that one person who can't read or reason.
Lemme give a "profession de foi". (okay, fancy french blah, it means my take).
I was just duoing docks with a blaster. A lvl 50 controller was helping us out smoking the mobs. I also know the controller had been pled. He's a nice guy and that's all good.
But I didn't like it. I don't like being helped. It ruins my game experience. By no means was it easy, two 41s clearing docks isn't exactly cake, even with a controller, cause he'd go afk. We coulda done it alone. But he *was* helping us.
I don't want help. I am a superhero! But at least the guy got me outta debt .
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The only way you can be angry about others Power Leveling is if your jealous.
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good observation i was thinking the same exact thing. cause power levelers dont hurt them in any way. so why would they be making this big of a deal about it. anyways flame away i dont care i know that you guys are just jelous of anyone who doesnt have to play 600 hours to get to 50.
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good observation i was thinking the same exact thing. cause power levelers dont hurt them in any way. so why would they be making this big of a deal about it. anyways flame away i dont care i know that you guys are just jelous of anyone who doesnt have to play 600 hours to get to 50.
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Since you can read people's minds and/or feelings in real life, you have any lottery numbers for us?
That is the most ignorant observation on this thread, and it's been repeated way too often.
How can you honestly say that you know what another person is feeling?
In court that would be followed with a loud"OBJECTION."
ok well you tell me why you are mad that other people are power leveling. and plz enlighten me on why you care so much about what other people are spending there money to do.
its like when two girls get together and one guy starts hitting on one of the girls cause her assets are better than the other ones. then the girl with out the nice assets ( non power levelers) start hating on the girl with the nice assets (power levelers) just cause shes jelous. but if you try telling her that shes jelous she would prolly try to kill you (or flame you for calling her jelous) or make up some bs like its nice to know that you can read peoples minds and so on.
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Here's my stance...
It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.
But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....
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There you go, in case you missed it in this thread.
That is from Statesman. Think he's jealous?
all im saying is why do you care so much. i havent ever had anyone power lvl me. just my devices have helped a bit and i kind of see that as power leveling, which im lookin forward to issue 2 that is coming out cause i think that smoke is too cheap. anyways im not trying to defend them im just saying why try flaming them if they arent doin anything to you. there paying for their own accounts and they arent doin anything illegal, and there not hurting you in any way. so why make a big deal out of it?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's my stance...
It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.
It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.
But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....
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First, let's define the power leveling that was commonly being referred to. It is the kind where a low level hero will stand at the train(in a safe zone) while another higher level hero takes all the risk and helps them level quickly. Being Sidekicked doesn't count. Basically, if you contribute in some way(actively, of course), then you are expected to agin xp.
Now, the quote form Statesman says that it is not what was intended. It does affect the game in some small ways and, maybe, bigger ones that we can't see, yet.
Overall, it is an issue of rules, though. That type of power leveling is against the rules as defined by Statesman.
It should always matter to us if someone is breaking the rules.
Wouldn't you agree?
i think that each individual is paying for his her own account. and should be able to do wtf he she wants to do. and as long as it doesnt hurt you, you should but the f* out!