Doc_Phantom

I suspect squids not flying will be like when you get hit by hydra spit. You flop about, but are still in full control.

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On the other hand, the decision to remove the stealth effect of Super Speed from PvP would seem to send the opposite message by rendering the power completely useless in no-travel-power PvP matches.

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Maybe because there is no "stealth" on SS? While the real stealth type powers follow the theme of making you fully or partially invisible by mechanically increasing your -aggrorange, SS was given this component to stop insta-pop mobs from aggroing on you before you can do anything. SS does not make your model transparent in the least. I suspect we won't have PCs insta-popping when you approach them, so -aggrorange really means nothing in PvP.

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Fliers get the shortest end of this stick. They have no bonuses associated with their travel power that could be retained to preserve some usefulness in a no-travel-powers scenario.


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Flight has hover, which provides defense. Speed has hasten, which provides defense. Leaping has CJ, which provides defense. The level 14 powers in each of these PPs do not provide a defense bonus.

If anything, your argument is only valid for Teleporters... who don't have def bonuses in their entire pool.

So, to confirm, hopefully by Geko, no defenses stack if they are against the same type?

So, picking up CJ and haste (both non-slotted for def), you still only have 5% defense? Add in stealth and that defense is used instead of CJ and haste, not in addition to?

As a better example, as an illusion controller, slotting out maneuvers and group invisibility nets you nothing, as only the higher value will be used?

Kid, hold down the middle mouse button and move your mouse. You can swing the camera around. There is a button to reset your cam I think, I just roll the mouse wheel forward all the way in and then back out. That centers you again and is pretty quick.

For those that want the UI and don't want to use a photo/image program, there is a bind in the same control area for toggling your UI. Unfortunately, I don't see any visual confirmation that the mode has changed, but hitting a screen shot makes it pretty obvious what mode you are in. Without it toggled on, your UI disappears when you hit the key, but stays when it is toggled on.

Hope that helps someone.

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Looking at the wallpapers there.. on this one, is it my perspective, or is the antennaed guy missing his right hand? His arm looks to end at the wrist.

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Oh, so now we are going to pick on the disabled, eh? Can't be a superhero because you lost a hand, eh? I have 3 words for you, sir, equal opportunity employment!

EDIT: BTW, that ingenious superhero is probably the one that came up with the crotch cannon weapon.

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The bugs with the TF was the Ambushes:

1) They happen in the wrong zone -- not Exemplar related, but if I have to go kill 20 Sky Raiders in Terra Volta, why are they ambushing me in Crey's Folley, etc.

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There were ambushes? Oops. Sorry victory peeps! That means I left ambushes in like 10+ zones... ouch.

Last night I was doing an Orenbega mission solo (34 ill/rad - Doc Phantom - Victory - ~2am EST). Got a mission complete but since I had 3 phantasms out and an unexplored area, I went to clear it out.

First duo of mobs I found, cast PA in front of them, each mob took one hit and faded out. My PA blinked out also. Same thing for all the mobs left in the area. I thought this might be a recent change to stop people from clearing out missions, so I exited after the 3rd set of mobs fading out on me.

Guess it was a bug after all.

OP: While I have seen your posts about the meaning of the post versus the actual builds, I would like to stress again... for anyone reading this for starting a new hero... do not follow the order of powers obtained in the examples. Consult the proper boards and look for advice on power ordering.

Anyways... in doing something like this again, my suggestion would be to focus more on the attributes, theory, and key powers, but only if you know those builds well. You will open yourself up for less friction.

Other than that, I could argue some other builds that should be included. First one that comes to mind is fire/ice/provoke tank, as it's built for soloability while controlling the mobs. Another option would be an inv/ice tank, which using invincibility and ice patch is about as much control as a group could ask for... although slow in the solo dept. I guess it all depends on what you consider control. An almost invincible tank with mobs stuck to him like glue is pretty solid control... just because hitting you doesn't mean much. Anyways... I am off on a tangent.

Something is afoot at the Circle K!

Crime, you gave a decent argument about how min/maxing can affect other players. And while I agree in general, this does not apply to powerleveling. They are 2 seperate beasts... although not mutually exclusive in the gaming world, only for this discussion. I could argue points on how min/max players also expedite the finding of game balance bugs before the majority of the base gets there. I could talk about early bug/loophole identification. Problem is, this isn't the topic, but feel free to start a new thread... I would participate.

I am still looking for a valid discussion on how powerleveling, specifically, affects others. Saying that it is clear how it (and min/maxing) affects everyone, yet providing only min/max examples doesn't make sense. Support your statement on the topic, not a secondary concern.

At that point, we can discuss differences of opinions or facts, whatever they may be.

EDIT: BTW, I fully support min/max. People say it like it's a negative thing. Since I don't role play and have very limited free time, the most efficient build/zone/mob/xp is suited to my tastes. This gives you your opposing statement, to start off the new thread.

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This is the least intelligible dev post I've ever made. If you can't wade through the above: "CROSS-VERSION BUG FIXES HARD. BIG UPDATES MAYBE GOOD" and ignore the rest.

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lol, you sound like a developer at a sales team meeting... "ok, bug fixes good, empty promises of new features bad". Not that I have been that developer or been in those meetings weekly... sigh.

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For someone that is bashing opinion, you have made 3 in this post alone. Follow your own advice.

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Wow! Just wow! Take a breath, read my posts, think before responding. I knew that post, in particular, would cause someone to respond negatively. The fact remains that I made many valid arguments that remains undisputed, while people continue to personally insult each other. BTW, they were well thought out, concise, and even got Adlerian to acknowlegde some of my points... it wasn't an opinion that they were "well thought out".

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3 basic arguments seem to be
1) *snip*
4) It doesn't say you can't do it or the it allows me to do it argument


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Hmmm...

Beyond the obvious, some of those points are valid when you read the posts that they respond to. I mentioned 2 of those in my discussion because they were appropriate when put in context with posts prior to me.

Regardless, I think this discussion is well beyond beaten down as page 60 is starting to look just like page 2. If you care to discuss any of the points by providing new information, that hasn't been rehashed many times, please do. I welcome it and will enjoy the debate. Number 3 is still of interest to me (how the powerleveling microcosm affects the other players).

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Perhaps not. Statesman posted another tid bit on the subject while discussing appropriate acts of heroism (vs the endless portal spawn exploit). He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that heroes have a responsibility to act heroicly.

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No, there shouldn't be much argument regarding that. This time it isn't someone twisting his words, they are quite clear.

But, I will say that this is the first time he has made a post like this since during beta. It does appear that he will at least be "looking into" the situation. I honestly don't know what he can do about it, beyond the overall changes to the game he had previously spoken of (which will only slow everyone down... hopefully by challenging them).

Well, good show. I think we can put this debate to rest.

BTW, big shout out to CuppaJo, as I suspect she is the one pruning the thread. I've noticed twice where page numbers have decreased. I haven't looked back for missing posts, but if they are personal attacks, I appreciate you keeping the thread clean. I suspect we are all about argued out anyways.

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there are always "instances" that may be hard to track who is powerleveling and who is not... to sift the whole database and check what zone, what char, what location, what powers etc etc is a tedious task to do


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Yes, these are called exceptions to the rule and may be allowed through the filter, with the understanding that their affect on the stats are minor. It should be fairly easy to identify someone who gained xp without any user input, for minutes prior to and after the gain. Tada... afk tram/autofollow powerleveler filtered. Ignore the ones buffing/healing unless you want to create an sql statement to filter those by autofollow/autocast. Tada, more filtered.

Regarding "sifting" through a database... as a dev I can say that I have only done this for fun, curiosity, and debugging. Since I can make forms and resulting report templates, I am not performing any "tedious task"... that's why we have computers. They do more than allow people to play games.

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The thing is, in the case of a game, unless the DEVs are watching for someone getting PLed so they can then have something to reference in their datamine, it would be a daunting task to just start sifting thru logs and data at characters on an individual basis in the hopes of finding multiple characters that would show up as not having activated any, or very powers, while they leveled, so they are probably just doing a general spread of leveling vs time involved ...

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As a network tech, you should be well aware that raw logs are not what people generally review. Sure some admins do when looking for something very specific, but chances are they would still filter with something like grep. Even packet sniffing, you would probably use a filter built into the sniffer. Many times, log parsers are used to generate reports, import data items into a db, and so on.

It would be impossible to convince me that any dev is looking through a raw log for anything other than possibly evaluating a situation for gm response. Even then, I would be very suprised. More likely than not, everything is dumped into a db. Someone developed a form for querying this db. I would further propose that this already includes a breakdown of ATs/powers/levels/zones/missions/what-have-you. This form input would be interpolated into the SQL/db query.

Now, tell me as a dev, who wishes to get a true picture, that you wouldn't add a where clause to the sql to remove powerlevelers and afks... by simply toggling a checkbox on the form.

I don't want to downplay the abilities of the devs at all as I really enjoy this game... but this is basic 101 type stuff. It's almost insulting to say that this can not and is not already being done.

/boggle

Adlerian:

You, and others, might have a misconception about what is going on with powerleveling. Just as powerleveling is a small minority of how people play the game, powerleveling a new player's toon from 2-50 is also an action taken by a very small minority of the powerleveling players. Since you are not involved, you may not understand this. You probably see the guy sitting at the tram ding, but you have no idea about that toon's player's background, experiences, or intent. Using the extreme example of the new player going from 2-50 may help make a point, but it is not the right point, and not close to the norm.

Regarding the whole "do nothing but gaining from it is a cheat", let me share something with you.

I play Texas Holdem and consider it a decent 3rd income at this point. I play a lot of sit and go tournaments (1 table of 10, last 3 are in the money). My starting strategy at times is to do the following: fold, fold, and fold again. Done correctly, I can outlast at least half the table. I may play a hand here and there, but if I don't, I am only down the blinds (occasional ante). When I see that the dead money is gone, I buckle down and start playing. Is this what the original game creator wanted? People to fold hand after hand just to get ahead? I doubt it, but it is a tactic supported by the game mechanics. Am I cheating? Certainly not. I choose when to start playing hands based on the situation and my goals. Usually, I end up in at least 3rd, picking up some of the pot... all from using fold as a tactic, a tactic where I am not really participating until late in the game. I just choose not to play early on because it is dangerous and usually boring.

Now, apply that to COH. Change hands to levels. Fold to powerlevel. Playing to "naturally playing". Money to xp.

I am sure someone is 1/2 inch from the reply button to tell me how this analogy is flawed, based on my tactic's impact on other players in the poker game. If so, you've missed the point completely.

In COH, I fold until I see a hand worth playing and then I buckle down and have some fun. It's still about the journey, but I choose when the journey starts.

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I'm still trying to figure out if you're just playing devil's advocate for the sake of a debate, or if you legitimately believe deep down that the game designers are glad to see this practice growing in popularity as it is.


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I used the terms "reading comprehension" and "religious crusade" previously for this exact reason. I don't think you could have proven my point any better. Some of you anti-pl'ers are so one track minded, that you fail to even see when someone agrees with you.

Let me quote myself, from the same post you just argued against:

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Actually, I agree with your statements (regarding Statesman's view on the game) completely. Powerleveling is not something a game designer wants to see his game turn into. It will happen though, as some players prefer it and the system allows it with the SK feature. This cannot be stopped, minimized perhaps, but not stopped.

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Until you can show me that you aren't being blinded by your crusade, and can understand posts completely, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Hopefully, at some point, you will realize you are the proverbial dog chasing/bitting it's own tail.

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Then our disagreement is simply in how we interpret Statesman. From reading anything and everything i have been able to find that are from the horse's mouth, I feel like I undrestand his intention one way, while you read it from another angle and feel like he is fairily apathetic about the issue of AFK leveling.

We read him differently.
The way I read him, based not only from the quotes pasted here in this thread but from all the interviews and Q&A sessions and his posts on this forum, I see Jack as a game designer who would like to see his players enjoy the process of advancement. Like I said, that's just how I read him. *shrug*

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Actually, I agree with your statements (regarding Statesman's view on the game) completely. Powerleveling is not something a game designer wants to see his game turn into. It will happen though, as some players prefer it and the system allows it with the SK feature. This cannot be stopped, minimized perhaps, but not stopped.

My disagreement is simply that you and others have taken his post as a banner to wave in the face of powerlevelers, when he obviously did not call it a cheat or exploit. It was just a tremendous leap and a desperate grasp to alter this in support of anti-pl argument. Powerlevelers are taking the words verbatim, anti-pls are using microscopes to read between the lines.

He did not even make a statement regarding stopping it, only stopping the ease at which you can level post 30. This will slow both natural and power leveling, although a powerleveled toon will still level many times faster.

Perhaps none of the vocal anti-pls have played in the 30s and 40s and this whole 30+ game ease is just way over your heads. I would understand this to be a cause for your misinterpretation.

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Techno_Ice you are right in alledging that it's all opinions whether it's "cheating or not", but what I don't think you've shown me in your debate is that it cannot affect me the non-PL'r.

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Then you have not read my posts.

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I see it as something that *can* and probably will affect me the non-PL'r. I see Jack's take on this issue as a forecast of changes being investigated that will make the game harder on me in and effort to curb the practice of PL'ing.


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See, again, this is where you and many are misinterpreting Statesman's post. The game is horrendously easy post 32/33 for most builds. Sure, it takes longer to level, but that is just the requirement of more minions (which are too easy to take out). His post says that they are looking to increase the difficulty in the late game, which will have an impact on powerleveling.

As I said before, I am not sure the previous idea of increased HP and XP will accomplish that. I don't think you can stop powerleveling as long as you retain the SK system.

Again, for those who are having a problem reading:

The game has issues post 30.
They want to fix this.
This fix may curb powerleveling as a side effect.

Please, understand which is the cause and which is the effect.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that those posting against powerleveling in this thread have no valid stance anymore beyond their opinions, which are fine to have. It's exactly what powerlevelers had to start with and have ended with.

I have made several well thought out posts with many points that explain the pros and cons of powerleveling. Not ONE of my posts had it's contents contested by an anti-pl'er (unless you include the semantics one regarding the words "religious crusade").

Typically, posts that have no merit will be torn apart by the other side. A lack of response only shows that there was no fallacy in my logic and statements.

I stand uncorrected. This means it's a matter of opinion regarding the whole topic. We can chose to agree to disagree based on that fact. I doubt anyone will sway the other's opinion. Feel free to try, I'm out unless someone can make a post worth responding to.

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Something material? Something other than your warped sense of morals and ideals?

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Nothing is warped about their sense of morals or ideals. By their very nature, they are subject to opinion, which we all are allowed our own. Some in this thread are just very adament about foisting theirs upon others. I don't take it to heart, so should you not.

Regarding the 30+ game... mobs/game adjustments will not affect the ability to powerlevel, just at which level it is being done and perhaps the speed. Everyone, including Statesman, is aware of this. In fact, if you increase mob xp along with hp, as Statesman suggested a possibility of, powerleveling would be easier. If I was getting more XP per group, despite the increased fight duration, I would spend less time hunting for the next group. In Statesman's words, "Bravo".

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There are some Gen Con quotes where he says something to the effect that he considers bugs anything that makes the game boring. Add that to what he said about leveling and I think that adds up.

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Quite frankly, if you take everything he posts verbatim, the game is completely full of bugs. It really isn't that bad, but does go to show that taking things word for word can be misconstrued easily.

After 1000+ hours, I may say that the whole game has become boring, therefore bugged. But I don't. I harmlessly powerlevel toons to a stage where I would enjoy playing, therefore increasing my enjoyment of the game. This also keeps me paying. My inv tank got some powerleveling to get some key powers. I have been naturally playing that toon since, for almost 10 levels now solo or duo. So what is the problem? Who suffered?

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Techno: Religious Crusade? Why is it that after the lead Dev says it will be dealt with, you still hurl those little insults at those of us who are against this?
Why should we be forced to play the way you expect us to?

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I have yet to see any powerleveler in this thread demand that everyone else does the same. But, I have seen the entire anti-pl contingent quite content to tell others how they must play on their dime.

So, who is telling who how to play again?

If you fail to understand the zealot comparison, sorry.

EDIT: BTW, I haven't insulted anyone up to this point, in all my posts. Unless you consider the term "religious crusade" to be an insult. /boggle

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I consider doing the same missions for levels 1-20, which I have done naturally many times before, boring behavior. Therefore, I am exploiting by just leveling an alt naturally? Of course not.

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Use just a little common sense before making a statement like that and weigh it out in your head. That's Ludicrous.


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Did you see the "of course not" on any of those? Reading comprehension...

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How about grinding in a hazard zone to level. What could be more boring behavior than running between 5-8 spawns in rotation, "arresting" for xp? Exploit? Of course not.


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What could be more boring? The answer to that question is, sitting afk making experience is more boring. You have at this point reduced your interaction with the game to such a degree as to have completely abandoned gameplay.


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Actually, I am no more than 3 feet away from my other PC, using one of my toons to level another. How am I not playing?

This is turning into a religious crusade for some of you. You don't really have to impart your gameplay ideals on others. If everyone were to play exactly alike, we would all be playing the same AT/build. We aren't.


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To try to extract such a ludicrous idea as "level 1-20 is boring to me, and Jack said boring gameplay is exploiting" is soooooo completely grasping for straws here. Please spare me the desperate interpretation.

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Again... reading comprehension.