Is PLing a Form of Cheating?

Wow, this topic just keeps on truckin'.

This is something I mentioned earlier. What about those of us who aren't going to be a liability to any team we enter? And those of us who can't dread the thought of playing through level 20 again? Would the OP care if I PLed an alt, even though I have a level 50 I worked on myself? What if I want to play with my SG? Would that be against his code of ethics?

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After reading this thread, one might think hoardes of people were buying CoH, then getting insta PLd the moment they opened the box.

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That's the impression I seem to be getting too.

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the PLers tend to be the ones who have already experienced the game content and would be quitting without a shortcut to the higher levels for their Alts.

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Thank you! I'm done debating this topic, as too many people continue to conjure up horror stories about how their neighbor's sister was killed in a power leveling accident. But I would like to know how the OP feels about those who have done all the hard work already once before.

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You asked him the wrong question. The topic here is "Is powerleveling cheating?" Ask him that and see what he says.

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He asked if it was considered acceptable behavior, and the answer was no.
How much more clearly does he have to spell it out? It's not that hard to read between the lines is it?

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Reading between the lines in this case means making up your own interpretation of question that was carefully worded to get a response he was looking for. You need to remember that he asked if it was intended behavior in the same sentence. There is no way to know which question Statesman actually answered. As I said, he asked a very carefully worded question. Why didn't he ask the real question which is "Is Powerleveling cheating?" I know why he didn't. Ninja knows why he didn't. He didn't ask it because Statesman would have had to have said, "no, it's not cheating." Now, he might well have said he didn't like it in addition. But, the term "powerleveling" entails a heck of a lot more then the specific instance that Ninja asked about.

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Reading between the lines in this case means making up your own interpretation of question that was carefully worded to get a response he was looking for. You need to remember that he asked if it was intended behavior in the same sentence. There is no way to know which question Statesman actually answered. As I said, he asked a very carefully worded question. Why didn't he ask the real question which is "Is Powerleveling cheating?" I know why he didn't. Ninja knows why he didn't. He didn't ask it because Statesman would have had to have said, "no, it's not cheating." Now, he might well have said he didn't like it in addition. But, the term "powerleveling" entails a heck of a lot more then the specific instance that Ninja asked about.

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It clearly goes hand in hand with Jack's Gencon Q&A session in which he was asked what an exploit was, and his reply was "I consider an exploit to be anything that rewards boring behavior."

Add those two statements together and consider what you really think Statesman's position is on this subject.

You'll note that I did not in fact call powerleveling "cheating" anywhere in this thread.

That is because Cheating implies breaking some rule. This isn't happening.

What is happening is that some folks are taking advantage of a flaw in the XP mechanics.

I am interested in whether the XP mechanic was indeed flawed as I thought it to be, resulting in the inevitable behavior of players exploiting it.

I am not interested in whether the players commited some wrongdoing. I could care less if they were punished in any way. I'd rather just see the problem in the mechanics fixed.

I look at it from a design point of view. Players will behave in fairly predictable ways in most cases to the way rules are set up. To ensure players behave in a manner you intended them to, you need to make sure the rules are set up to encourage them to do so. Abstractly, it's like running rats through a complex maze. If you want them to run in a particular direction, you alter the maze so that direction is what they want too.

I did call AFK powerleveling exploiting. I define exploiting as using loopholes in the rules to deliberately engage in behavior that is fairly obviously not what the game designers intended. Using the letter of the law to violate the spirit of the law, as it were. Again, I don't count this is necessarily cheating, as the rules of the game as laid out ARE being followed. Those rules are just flawed is all.

I got the answer I was looking for. AFK powerleveling is not an intended behavior, and steps are being taken to fix the rules, the game mechanics, to discourage that behavior.

I asked exactly what I intended to. No more or less.


-np

I think one problem here, MadSqueegee, is that we've got a lot of different questions floating about and no one's sure which one we're debating. For instance, there's the topic: "Is PLing a Form of Cheating?" To me that's a very conceptual question that goes to the design of MMOGs and how people play them -- particularly games where the player isn't competing against anyone but a game engine. In my mind, that's a matter of competing against yourself. This leads to the question, "If there's no direct competition, how are PLed characters hurting the game/other players?" Already bandied back and forth, not going there again.

"Is powerlevelling (specifically, getting XP while actually doing nothing and taking no risks) acceptable in City of Heroes?" is a different question. Stateman has already answered that (it is not acceptable). There we go, case closed.

"Why do people powerlevel anyhow?" Is yet another question, one I don't think is easily dismissed by cries of "cheater! cheater!" Yeah, of course there's always going to be people who only want to be ub3r and will do anything to get there for... I don't know, some sense of validation, I guess. For others, though, the points where people powerlevelling *might* point out spots in the game where there are problems -- thin content, repetitive gameplay, whatever -- and tweaking those spots might help diminish the powerlevelling "problem."

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too many people continue to conjure up horror stories about how their neighbor's sister was killed in a power leveling accident.

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But...<sob> Powerlevellers killed my parents!!

Thanks Ninja. I have noticed exactly what you have posted and apprecitate the candid response to my post. You might have also noticed in all my posts that I have never said that I think you should be able to level as you presently can at train stations. I am not opposed to this being changed. I simply disagree with the statement that powerleveling is cheating.

Frankly, this thread would have gone very differently if the thread premise had been ... "Do you think players should continue to be able to stand around at train stations and be leveled by others in their group without doing any of the work?" I believe that would have been a very different thread. Of course, that would have also meant that the original poster wouldn't have gone around accusing everyone who disagreed with him of cheating.

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Let me give the best analogy I can:

What we have is a backed up busy interstate off ramp. We have people sitting patiently in line to exit the interstate. Occasionally we have a driver who drives past the majority of the line in hopes of wiggling in. He does. Now all the people, who just saw this, are angry because that one driver skipped way ahead of them without having to wait. They aren't exactly jealous. They do wish they could do the same, but are bound by their beliefs that sitting in line was the proper thing to do and someone who jumps ahead is cheating the system.

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Your analogy is a poor one. It would be more accurate to say that there are 2 people on bicycles, headed towards the same destination (in this case level 50). At some point the person being powerlevelled throws his bike into the back of his friend's truck (his friend is the powerleveller) and get's a ride part of the way.

I didn't read all the posts after yours yet, but I had to respond and give you a better analogy. Personally, I think the destination should be fun, but people who have a problem with powerlevelling seem to find the xp gain to be the main issue. No one in this thread is complaining about people afk at the train station who aren't being powerlevelled.

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Reading between the lines in this case means making up your own interpretation of question that was carefully worded to get a response he was looking for. You need to remember that he asked if it was intended behavior in the same sentence. There is no way to know which question Statesman actually answered. As I said, he asked a very carefully worded question. Why didn't he ask the real question which is "Is Powerleveling cheating?" I know why he didn't. Ninja knows why he didn't. He didn't ask it because Statesman would have had to have said, "no, it's not cheating." Now, he might well have said he didn't like it in addition. But, the term "powerleveling" entails a heck of a lot more then the specific instance that Ninja asked about.

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It clearly goes hand in hand with Jack's Gencon Q&A session in which he was asked what an exploit was, and his reply was "I consider an exploit to be anything that rewards boring behavior."

Add those two statements together and consider what you really think Statesman's position is on this subject.

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I finally found what I was looking for and it was from reading this post, so thank you poster. I did a search for "gencon q&a" which was where Statesman responded to how he felt about power leveling and other stuff. And here is a Quote from the transcript.

"Various misc. things that came up during the QA, but were not direct answers:
- The Super Secret Non Combat System will be in Issue 3
- I do not care how fast people level. The key criteria is that it must be FUN, so that you'll want to keep playing even after you've leveled up your character.
- I consider an exploit to be anything that rewards boring behavior. The Smoke Grenade bug is an example - it's about as fun as "poking yourself in the eye" (direct quote) but people do it since they level faster.
- Eventually instanced missions may have an interactive environment, since griefing won't be as much of a problem."

I doubt this will clear anything up for anyone, but I'm just happy that I found it.

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I don't know the age of the average person on the boards but sometimes kids or young adults have trouble understanding the notion of fair play and may never have been exposed to ethics and a system of beliefs. I have gone over this many times.
Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with. They would constantly use they "how does my behavior affect you" line of reasoning. How did my stealing a car affect you! One does not have to be affected directly by a behavior to not like it. And once again the designers do mention that they do not want people to gain an unfair playing advantage. What more is there to say. The problem is that people that are unethical are either so unethical that they don't know it, or they are rationalizing.

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You're pretty judgemental and not very open-minded for a psychologist. Hopefully, you're not a therapist, although from what you said, it sounds like you are. Stealing a car hurts someone. Powerlevelling does not. I'd like to see you defend your arguments or criticize specific points of other people's arguments. I don't see you doing much besides calling people cheaters and judging them. That's pretty lame.

I've never done what you find so unethical, which is sitting at the train station getting xp. But I disagree with you and find nothing wrong with it. I have grouped with higher or lower level characters and done or received some degree of powerlevelling in that way.

So there, he defines what an exploit is.. at the same time it seems he's stressing that cares about people having fun more so than exploits. At the same time, it doesnt mean it's not going to be looked at.

So there you go. The fact that ppl are having fun power leveling is pretty much what it says. Sure it's an exploit by his explanation, but they are also pleased that these people are having fun or logging their time into the game. Now, the obvious question is.. how does it affect these persistent whiners. I've yet to see any of these whiners give me concrete evidence that it significantly impacts their enjoyment of the game. Sure it pisses people off to see someone gain levels at an accelerated rate due to jealous/ethical/moral/bs reasons, but really how does it affect you?

Here's my stance...

It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.

It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.

But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

statesmen I think they are talking about the 46 who Sks the lvl 11 then the 11 groups with a 50 and is gaining mad exp. Even if the 46 stays in the group

Dude, Statesman has spoken.

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But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

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He understands what we're talking about. Fights are easier for higher level characters than they want it to be, but he said if someone wants to do it (power level)... Bravo. Sounds like Statesman just wants everyone to have fun.

I think it's very cool he took the time to write a response. Hope he didn't wade through too many of those posts, though. I'd like to offer the following suggestion:

I think part of the problem is how lower level people gain more xp when the team defeats villains higher than their combat level. There should be some comparison to the average level of the team, and the higher level characters should get more xp than the lower level ones because they contribute more. So, if 5 characters the same level defeat higher level villains they still get more xp, but if one of the characters is higher level than the rest, he should get more xp because he contributes more.

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Frankly Miir,

I'm a 37 year old clinical psychologist from Philadelphia.
I have a masters in health car admin.
A masters in counseling psychology
A masters in clinical psychology
A doctorate in clinical psychology
I have 15 years experience in the field of psychology.
I like people that take things seriously.
I never cheated to get any of those degrees.
I enjoy video games because they take me away from the human [censored] pile that I am used to dealing with. Can I get any more honest than that?
More importantly, what do you think about the Statesman?

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This is post getting to be pretty ugly.... my opinion is that if people did pay that thy can do whatever they want as long as no one is offended. The best mentality to maintain is the fact that this is not a compitition, that no one is getting a prize for level 50, and by power leveling, people are simply cheating themselves out of 15 dollars a month, money which you have spent well because you are enjoying the game.

Hooray!

I must say, I sent a PM to Stateman directing him to this thread a couple of hours ago, and bamm, he actually posted here. What a guy!

Cheers!

No, he is discouraging PLing, at least in the form of leveling by doing nothing. Statesman wants people to have fun, and he considers leveling by doing nothing NOT fun, so since that's not fun, that would not be somthing he wants people doing. But he can't stop you if you really want to. Though in the future with the increasing difficulty of the higher level game it should be less of a problem because people should run into trouble with an inadequate team per team size for missions anyway.

But yes, PLing is a form of cheating the game by getting levels you did not earn. Paying for a gaming service does not entitle you to get to level 50, be it in one month or ten. Cryptic will not say: "Oh, it looks like you haven't surpassed level 20 for over a year now since you've subscribed, we need to bump you 10 levels to get you up to speed." All the subscription does is allow you to play the game, you are not purchasing any leveling rights by paying for the service, nor by already having a higher level character. For example what you've earned as a lvl 50 blaster does not credit one towards a lvl 50 controller as you did not work for that controller and played for it to deserve it. This applies to all ATs and the variations of them. What makes anyone think that having a higher level character allows them to have another for less work or free is beyond me. That's like saying, "since i purchased this expensive car which i worked really hard to get the money for, i deserve another". Sorry, but the real world doesn't work that way, and gaming world social contracts are a microcosm of the reality that they are trying to create, and in this case, a world like ours but with superheroes and villains- NOT a world like ours but with superheroes, villains, and insta-high-level-hero-creation or cloning perks.

[EDIT: more stuff i wanted to add]
To the people that say what someone else does will not affect you. Stop deluding yourselves. Easy example: the U.S. presidential ballot. If it weren't for Florida... well i think you know where that's going. As a result of that, a monkey may have sent some of your friends and family to fight a war on foreign soil and lose their lives for it. Still not convinced? I doubt anyone of you know me but if you read what i post, i will affect you. Even if you disagree, or even forget, or anything short of a lobotomy, after all is said and done you will still have that lingering gut feeling that someone opposed your opinions, and that would be me and all the others who share an opposing view.

To the people who say that they can play the game THEIR way: We are playing the devs' game. We can only do what they have let us do. Hence when they find something wrong, they will fix it (or what some of you have lovingly dubbed "nerf"). You're not going to be able to play a lvl 99 hero, have every power on one hero, have infinite endurance, etc., just because you want to play that way. If there are ways to play that they do not intend, that is just a flaw that they haven't gotten around to fixing yet. Give it time. Just because something hasn't been dealt with doesn't mean it's "working as intended". The devs are people too and have other things to deal with than pamper us with extra code to keep people playing the way that's intended.

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Here's my stance...

It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.

It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing.

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You say it is not fun to lvl by doing nothing. There is another possibility. People may think the early lvls are not fun to play and therefore want to be higher lvl ASAP. There are a few reasons that come to mind:
1) They may have done the early lvls so many times with different alt already that they are bored with them. What will help with this is new low lvl content, which we all know is about to be added. Badges might help somewhat too.
2) They may feel that the character build does not come into its own till later lvls and the early ones are torturous. The best example of this would be Illusion or Fire Controllers (pre Update 2 changes of course). This is a serious problem. Character sets should be fun to play at all lvls. If you have a power set that is painful enough at lower lvls that people want to start the game at lvl 10/20/30/whatever I think the powerset needs revamping.
3) It isn't powerset specific but lvl specific. To be precise, the fact that people hate moving like a turtle with a bum leg till they get a travel power at lvl 14. I happen to share this view. Movement is painfully slow at the lower lvls. How many minutes should it take me to get to my mission in another zone? How much time should I lose then traveling back to my contact? Getting to lvl 50 the fun is in the destination not the journey. Getting to/from my mission, its the destination, get me there as fast as possible. I'm curious, what % of newly created characters are new to the game and what % are old timers with alts? For new players maybe running to/from missions/contacts helps show them the world and gets them engrossed in the game. For the rest of us though, it is a major annoyance. You made the decision to allow experienced players to skip the Tutorial. Find a way to allow experienced players to get from place to place a bit quicker in the early game as well.

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Here's my stance...

It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.

It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing.

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That's cool and all, Jack, but let me run this by you. I P/L'ed my scrapper past 19, with the help of a friend because of one thing: my only other option was to street sweep for a level, because my contacts wouldn't give me any more missions at that point.

Street sweeping, to me is DEFINITELY not fun. I am again playing and enjoying my scrapper, in missions, thanks to the fact that a friend was able to help me skip the stuff that sucked.

Now I understand that missions will be added in the next update, and the gaps that I so hate will (hopefulyl) disappear, but I just want you to understand that SOME of the P/Ling that goes on is to skip the stuff that is NOT fun.

Edit: WHat I mean specifically is that when I hit the gap at 19, I had a friend PL me past the gap so that I could continue having what I consider is fun. Street sweeping, competing with others and dealing with griefers is not, to me, fun.

He's discouraging it because it isn't fun, not because it's considered cheating.

What I would like to know is: if Statesman is so concerned about discourging boring behavior, then why put us in the position of having to choose between "boring street grind" and "boring standing-around-in-the-train-station?" Statesman and the rest of the devs are far from stupid, and I'm sure they realize that people engaging in this boring (and controversial) behavior is only a symptom of something much worse. By making the mobs more difficult, what exactly are they going to accomplish besides making the game slower?

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But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

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He understands what we're talking about. Fights are easier for higher level characters than they want it to be, but he said if someone wants to do it (power level)... Bravo. Sounds like Statesman just wants everyone to have fun.


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I think he made it clear that this is something of a loophole that will be remedied by upcoming changes. He and the rest of the team are aware that it happens. They are looking into changing mechanics that will cause the issue "to resolve itself."

While he did say "...if people want to do this, Bravo..." and therefore make it clear that it's not *cheating* per se, it's obvious that things aren't working as intended since it's being done so widely.

Take that for what you will.
Some people will interpret it as exploiting, since it's been confirmed that it's an issue of things not working as intended, ala smoke grenade stacking or whatever the loophole of the month is next.
Some people will interpret it as a case of "just getting all the fun they can for $15a month" and not have qualms about continuing to use this loophole while it exists.

*shrug*

How does it affect those of us who don't do it?
I guess that depends on the changes that are made to straighten out the issue. If they can make changes that will simply make this practice obsolete, and non-participants aren't affected by those changes, hurray! If they make changes that globally affect the difficulty of play because the AFK-PL-crowd has brought it to the attention of the devs that it can be done so easily, then maybe the changes will affect even those people who don't participate in this type of play. Casual gamers who don't have high level toons, who find the game to be hard enough as it is now.

It's all opinions about what is good sportsmanlike play, what affects your fellow player, and how, etc etc.. There aren't any facts. It's completly subject to interpretation.

We will see in future weeks/months what becomes of it. I hope there can be a fair way to adjust things so that the bulk of people can be satisfied.

regards,

First, Statesman, thanks for responding to this thread, although I'm afraid people (including myself) are going to use that response as their own personal inkblot. Rorschaching away:

I think this addresses the deeper issue, which is discouraging AFK-XP-earning (and other forms of more-rapid-than-intended levelling) by making it so that the majority of players don't want to do this.

Playing a game should never be about work, which is why I find some of the analogies and terms in this thread interesting.

I think the analogy of the "sitting in traffic while someone else cuts in" is actually fitting, in that it reflects a mindset that playing the game at lower levels is somehow like sitting in traffic. If you feel that way (and, by extension, feel somehow there's a need for you to pass using the shoulder and cut in further down the road), then the problem is the game, or at least your appreciation of the game. Maybe the game has hit a dull patch for you, or maybe you just don't (won't?) appreciate what your current place in the game has to offer.

For my fiance, it was getting Flight. She wanted it because it fit her character (she recreated an old Champions character here) and because she was tired of sprinting to missions. That part of the game had become Not Fun for her. So I parked her character while she was at work (not in the train station, I might add), grouped with her, and went to pound on some people until she made it from level 12 to level 14. She's happy, I'm happy, and I don't think it hurt anyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Statesman didn't state that powerlevellers were throwing off the level-distribution curve or the like. I hope that means that the activity isn't causing the developers' focus to get skewed. I *can* see that as a potential detrimental side-effect (as other people have mentioned), but it all depends on how many people are doing it, how rapidly they're advancing, and how well the developers are able to account for that when trying to figure out the target group for updates. I don't have enough knowledge about the situation either way.

Time to relax, I think.

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Here's my stance...

It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.

It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.

But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

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Awesome. Now if we can fix the Extreme (tm) grind at the post 30 levels, so I might not get frustrated and role another character. We will have a winner.

5 stars for you. Sitting in traffic is exactly how I would describe the lower levels. And I do feel the need to drive on the shoulder, get off the pavement completely and drive on the grass, or any other "skipping in line" metaphore you can come up with.

It doesn't feel this way to new players because they don't know any better. But for me, creating an alt is like flying in first class, then getting stuck back in coach. I really want to play that Ice Tank (seriously), but the road to 30 looks like a sun-parched highway in the middle of the desert.

Now I can choose between crawling down this highway, or driving down it in a sports car. For most people, the decision is easily made.

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5 stars for you. Sitting in traffic is exactly how I would describe the lower levels. And I do feel the need to drive on the shoulder, get off the pavement completely and drive on the grass, or any other "skipping in line" metaphore you can come up with.

It doesn't feel this way to new players because they don't know any better. But for me, creating an alt is like flying in first class, then getting stuck back in coach. I really want to play that Ice Tank (seriously), but the road to 30 looks like a sun-parched highway in the middle of the desert.

Now I can choose between crawling down this highway, or driving down it in a sports car. For most people, the decision is easily made.

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Right on the nose here.