Green_Jackel

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And if you can believe it, you can build solo Defenders that don't suck at street grinding (I think they'd always be better with an attack AT, though).

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Some defender builds are great soloers, particularly those that have strong offensive leverage, ala rad/storm/kin primaries.

The ability to solo well is I guess just measured by your own personal goals about progression. I am content with my ability to solo with my Defender. I'm one of those people who don't always have time to go find a team and see time go to waste when it turns out to be a bad team.

People who plan defenders for soloing can perform adequately, IMO.. not as fast, but probably paying a lot less debt in the big picture is a nice bonus. =)

With that said, I offer you this funny panel I made on the subject of good defender soloing.

Cheers!

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Until you can show me that you aren't being blinded by your crusade, and can understand posts completely, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore. Hopefully, at some point, you will realize you are the proverbial dog chasing/bitting it's own tail.

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Hmm.
You exxagerate my position as being some sort of crusade. I'm not so concerned about what happens as to feel like it's *that* significant to me. Maybe the OP is crusading.

Personally I just aired my agreement with some points, namely when a practice bordering on exploitive play could potentially end up affecting me in how it's "fixed."

I'm not vehemently spouting a lot of irrational drivel. I'm citing a valid point: This issue could end up adversely affecting me, even though I don't participate in it.

And that's all.

regards,

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Perhaps none of the vocal anti-pls have played in the 30s and 40s and this whole 30+ game ease is just way over your heads. I would understand this to be a cause for your misinterpretation.

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Maybe that is the case with "a lot" of people, but it's not where my input is concerned. Like I stated in a prior post, I have a lvl40 toon who could go out and strike up a PL for PL deal if he wanted.

Is the game easy post 30? or post 40, to me? Sorta, yeah. I find myself looking around for a hero passerby (or two) who I can get to team with me long enough to enter my mission and raise the bodycount, in lieu of the "mission difficulty sliders" we've been told will be coming in a future publish. It works. You can make a mission insanely hard if you try, with just a little short term cooperation from a fellow player or several fellow players.

I hope you can believe me when I say that my oppostition isn't about jealousy or haves and have nots, that my opposition to the practice of AFK leveling is rooted in concerns over changes that might be made to curb it which could possibly influence me.

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My disagreement is simply that you and others have taken his post as a banner to wave in the face of powerlevelers, when he obviously did not call it a cheat or exploit. It was just a tremendous leap and a desperate grasp to alter this in support of anti-pl argument. Powerlevelers are taking the words verbatim, anti-pls are using microscopes to read between the lines.

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I personally have never called it "cheating." I think that's a bit extreme. I may see it as lazy, but not as cheating.

It doesn't take microscopic analysis to derive the common sense notion that Statesman would rather see players playing than players sitting AFK in the railstation leveling up. For you to imply that that's a preposterous notion I'm wishfully extrapolating is, well to quote you, [a lack of] "reading comprehension."

Sure, if you *only* take into account the one or two liner statements he's made directly on the subject, I could see you thinking it to be a vague and questionable interpretation. But if you are somewhat familiar with how Jack has responded to other issues that "promote lazy play", it's not a far stretch to realize that he's probably not chuckling about AFK leveling and saying "Well those cute little clever kids! good for them, they're thinking out of the box." Give me a break, will you? Surely you can see that? You seem perceptive enough to be able to agree with a simple and common sense idea like that.

I'm still trying to figure out if you're just playing devil's advocate for the sake of a debate, or if you legitimately believe deep down that the game designers are glad to see this practice growing in popularity as it is.

Let me just ask in plain, simple form, your opinions - a simple yes or no would be all that you need give, as I will ask you these questions in a yes or no format:

Do you believe Statesman thinks AFK powerleveling is a good thing?

Do you believe that the development team as a whole foresaw such activity when they implemented the SK system, and just assumed it to be a fair and logical extension of said system?

Do you think that AFK-Powerleveling is a practice that the development team will try to preserve as a fair alternative to playing through the levels actively?

I guess if you can answer "yes" to those questions, then you indeed believe in the fairness and legitimacy of AFK leveling, and you of course really do feel like you would be "cheated" if the developers figured out a way to pull the rug out from under the practice.

regards,

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See, again, this is where you and many are misinterpreting Statesman's post. The game is horrendously easy post 32/33 for most builds. Sure, it takes longer to level, but that is just the requirement of more minions (which are too easy to take out). His post says that they are looking to increase the difficulty in the late game, which will have an impact on powerleveling.

As I said before, I am not sure the previous idea of increased HP and XP will accomplish that. I don't think you can stop powerleveling as long as you retain the SK system.

Again, for those who are having a problem reading:

The game has issues post 30.
They want to fix this.
This fix may curb powerleveling as a side effect.

Please, understand which is the cause and which is the effect.

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Then our disagreement is simply in how we interpret Statesman. From reading anything and everything i have been able to find that are from the horse's mouth, I feel like I undrestand his intention one way, while you read it from another angle and feel like he is fairily apathetic about the issue of AFK leveling.

We read him differently.
The way I read him, based not only from the quotes pasted here in this thread but from all the interviews and Q&A sessions and his posts on this forum, I see Jack as a game designer who would like to see his players enjoy the process of advancement. Like I said, that's just how I read him. *shrug*

Techno_Ice you are right in alledging that it's all opinions whether it's "cheating or not", but what I don't think you've shown me in your debate is that it cannot affect me the non-PL'r.

I see it as something that *can* and probably will affect me the non-PL'r. I see Jack's take on this issue as a forecast of changes being investigated that will make the game harder on me in and effort to curb the practice of PL'ing.

You disagree then, that there is a decent chance that possible changes may affect/change the playstyle of those people who didn't engage in the practice to begin with?

regards,

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In this case, Statesman's view on idle play places him in the role of the NFL Owners at the time. They want to encourage fun and exciting viewing. Jack wants to encourage fun and exciting play. In both cases, it is legal to continue to perform the activities that they are trying to discourage. It isn't illegal to kick a field goal, nor is it illegal to powerlevel. But, in both cases, the game is changed to encourage the playstyle that those in charge are looking for.

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That's a pretty fair and reasonable comparison, Scholar.

It also illustrates once again, in a different way, how the changes can affect everyone - If too many of us decide to take the easy field goals, and the goal posts get moved back another 10 yards, everyone will face the same increase in difficulty together.

Why do Powerlevelers feel like the people who have a problem with the concept are full of jealousy, that it's the haves vs. the have nots?

Is it so difficult to see that we fear the changes that other people's exploitive gameplay could bring about that can affect ALL players, including those who have no desire to PL in the first place?

I'm opposed to AFK PL'ing. I'm not jealous of anyone for being able to do so. Heck, I have a Lvl. 40 character and a half dozen alts in the 12-18 range. I could work out a PL'ing deal with a supergroup mate if I cared to do so. "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, and we'll both skip to 30 on this next round." Personally, as I mentioned in a post lost a few pages back, I don't find it boring to re-play the content again, because the challenge changes with each different build I play. Some of us aren't JEALOUS. we just don't want to see changes made to the game mechanics that will stop this type of gameplay and at the same time make it tougher on those of us who want to play the game as it was intended to be played.

In my mind, it's not at all about jealousy. To me it's simply a matter where my opinion is "Here is the game system, let's all play it as the devs intended for us to play it rather than seeking out ways to take shortcuts, or they're likely to make changes to the system that will make the game more difficult for us in order to eliminate potential shortcuts."

regards,

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I consider doing the same missions for levels 1-20, which I have done naturally many times before, boring behavior. Therefore, I am exploiting by just leveling an alt naturally? Of course not.

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Use just a little common sense before making a statement like that and weigh it out in your head. That's Ludicrous.

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How about grinding in a hazard zone to level. What could be more boring behavior than running between 5-8 spawns in rotation, "arresting" for xp? Exploit? Of course not.


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What could be more boring? The answer to that question is, sitting afk making experience is more boring. You have at this point reduced your interaction with the game to such a degree as to have completely abandoned gameplay.

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How about "arresting" mob after mob in a mission that is an almost exact duplicate of one I did 5 levels ago, simply because of the lack of variety in the game's mechanics. Exploit? Of course not... "arresting" is how we level.

Obviously there is much room for interpretation in even such a straight forward quote. Open your mind when it comes to such things.

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Fighting through your missions and arcs with another character, with a different arch, a different set of powers, is by no means boring. I faced a boss with my main character (defender) and later faced the same villain as a Scrapper, a Blaster, and a Controller. In each scenario, the difficulty, and the strategy, were MUCH different. I found it more difficult to accomplish with some, easier to accomplish with others. I learned a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of all those different AT powerset combos. Through this experience, I've also learned something about other people's choices in their builds and how the world looks through their eyes, to a degree. Playing through those same boring stories (that's sarcasm, they aren't *that* boring..) a 3rd or 4th or 5th time has been a learning experience and skipping over them would have been denying myself of the ability to learn about different ATs at differing levels vs. different types of foes.
That's all I need to say about the issue of "boring repetitive 1-20 leveling".

Statesman's input can be interpreted as abstractly as you want to try to interpret it, you can extrapolate more or less from what he said if you like - but it seems evident to me (and I would think anyone who isn't simply trying to bend his words to fit their own argument) that he was saying "There is a problem with this that hopefully we will see solve itself with future changes. This type of play isn't what we intended to see happen."

To try to extract such a ludicrous idea as "level 1-20 is boring to me, and Jack said boring gameplay is exploiting" is soooooo completely grasping for straws here. Please spare me the desperate interpretation.

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But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

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He understands what we're talking about. Fights are easier for higher level characters than they want it to be, but he said if someone wants to do it (power level)... Bravo. Sounds like Statesman just wants everyone to have fun.


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I think he made it clear that this is something of a loophole that will be remedied by upcoming changes. He and the rest of the team are aware that it happens. They are looking into changing mechanics that will cause the issue "to resolve itself."

While he did say "...if people want to do this, Bravo..." and therefore make it clear that it's not *cheating* per se, it's obvious that things aren't working as intended since it's being done so widely.

Take that for what you will.
Some people will interpret it as exploiting, since it's been confirmed that it's an issue of things not working as intended, ala smoke grenade stacking or whatever the loophole of the month is next.
Some people will interpret it as a case of "just getting all the fun they can for $15a month" and not have qualms about continuing to use this loophole while it exists.

*shrug*

How does it affect those of us who don't do it?
I guess that depends on the changes that are made to straighten out the issue. If they can make changes that will simply make this practice obsolete, and non-participants aren't affected by those changes, hurray! If they make changes that globally affect the difficulty of play because the AFK-PL-crowd has brought it to the attention of the devs that it can be done so easily, then maybe the changes will affect even those people who don't participate in this type of play. Casual gamers who don't have high level toons, who find the game to be hard enough as it is now.

It's all opinions about what is good sportsmanlike play, what affects your fellow player, and how, etc etc.. There aren't any facts. It's completly subject to interpretation.

We will see in future weeks/months what becomes of it. I hope there can be a fair way to adjust things so that the bulk of people can be satisfied.

regards,

Hooray!

I must say, I sent a PM to Stateman directing him to this thread a couple of hours ago, and bamm, he actually posted here. What a guy!

Cheers!

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Reading between the lines in this case means making up your own interpretation of question that was carefully worded to get a response he was looking for. You need to remember that he asked if it was intended behavior in the same sentence. There is no way to know which question Statesman actually answered. As I said, he asked a very carefully worded question. Why didn't he ask the real question which is "Is Powerleveling cheating?" I know why he didn't. Ninja knows why he didn't. He didn't ask it because Statesman would have had to have said, "no, it's not cheating." Now, he might well have said he didn't like it in addition. But, the term "powerleveling" entails a heck of a lot more then the specific instance that Ninja asked about.

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It clearly goes hand in hand with Jack's Gencon Q&A session in which he was asked what an exploit was, and his reply was "I consider an exploit to be anything that rewards boring behavior."

Add those two statements together and consider what you really think Statesman's position is on this subject.

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THAT tells me, should tell us all, that AFK powerleveling, aka reward without risk (and he's stated in the past that he considers any event of reward without risk to be an exploit) is not considered to be acceptable play.

So, it's being looked at. How can they fix the problem? Make the game a little harder... and voila, there's the answer to all of the people who asked "How does my afk-PL'ing affect you?"


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That's faulty logic.

COH would still be too easy even without powerleveling.

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Faulty logic?
The question posed was Is it intended/acceptable behavior, and the answer was No.

As far as "it's being looked into" - is it faulty logic to postulate that if changes are made to the game to curb this sort of unacceptable behaviour, these changes COULD affect all of us.
This issue has been analogized to death, but the old "that kid shoplifting isn't hurting me/yes he is because we will all be penalized by the increase in prices necessary to counterbalance his theft" analogy is a fairly decent one.

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You asked him the wrong question. The topic here is "Is powerleveling cheating?" Ask him that and see what he says.

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He asked if it was considered acceptable behavior, and the answer was no.
How much more clearly does he have to spell it out? It's not that hard to read between the lines is it?

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"Is standing in a safe zone (like next to a police drone) while higher level teammates level you up considered an intended or acceptable form of behaviour on the part of players?"

His reply:

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Originally posted by Statesman:

No - it's a side consequence of the game being too easy at certain levels. I'm looking into it.

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I'd really say that Jack's reply is the answer to the whole question.

Is it considered acceptable? No. It's being looked at.

THAT tells me, should tell us all, that AFK powerleveling, aka reward without risk (and he's stated in the past that he considers any event of reward without risk to be an exploit) is not considered to be acceptable play.

So, it's being looked at. How can they fix the problem? Make the game a little harder... and voila, there's the answer to all of the people who asked "How does my afk-PL'ing affect you?"

regards,

It's a great post, thanks for taking the time.

One bit i disagree a little on is that we can't take out a large group. I am currently 32, and go to Bricks to find big groups of foes. I prefer even con or +1 lvl foes, but don't mind if there's a LT or two in the group. The Crey are good. Freaks, except for those darn self-rezzing occasions can throw off my rythm. 5th Column if I don't get too many Riflemen in the mix slowing me.
I have my tentacles rooting down to a near perfect science, I can imagine a picture of my cone on the ground in front of my character almost perfectly. This comes from practice. I prefer a dozen or so even cons. Tentacles will catch about 90% or better, depending on the foes, some spread out and roam a little more than others, but if you approach from the right angle you can usually hit 90%. The strays will beat on you a little but you can change their angle and lock them up next repetion. Night Fall has great range, i can back up a bit from my mobs after i lock them down and drop EF and then hit myself a heal, which i need now that 12+ mobs just took a shot at me, then hit NightFall. 2nd pass with Tentacles now, change your angle a little so that you're going to get those pesky fellows you missed last time in the mix, then back off, heal, NightFall. Boom, all the minions dropped on the second pass. Now your LTs are standing there wetting themselves. Re-Tentacle them, Nightfall one more time, and then polish them off with a burst of gloom.
The exp. for Minions when x10 or x12 is pretty nice for a little <2 minute fight.

There are some obvious situations where this scenario won't work, or needs to be adjusted. Nazi Vampires sleep you and you cant afford to miss one of your heals after you agro the whole lot. Same with those Crey cryo guys and protectors. There are lots of mobs that won't hold/sleep etc, you just have to keep an eye on them.
Boss mobs will resist the hold effect on tentacles more often than not, but even then, I can usually kite them around the rest of the tentacled hoard and lock them in after the second try or by the time i've dropped the minions and LTs.

I love my rad dark to pieces. I hope everyone has as much fun. =)

I update my template shot each day usually, have a look!

regards,