Is PLing a Form of Cheating?

Techno

I like your post. I don't know the age of the average person on the boards but sometimes kids or young adults have trouble understanding the notion of fair play and may never have been exposed to ethics and a system of beliefs. I have gone over this many times.
Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with. They would constantly use they "how does my behavior affect you" line of reasoning. How did my stealing a car affect you! One does not have to be affected directly by a behavior to not like it. And once again the designers do mention that they do not want people to gain an unfair playing advantage. What more is there to say. The problem is that people that are unethical are either so unethical that they don't know it, or they are rationalizing.
Frankly, at this point I would almost pay to have one of the designers give their opinion.

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I'd love it if anyone would come up with solid reasons why powerleveling, more specifically AFK leveling, is a POSITIVE contributor to the game. In any way.


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I outlined a few points in my long post last night, which show how a powerleveler will enhance your game experience in the long run. Refer to the balance and bug area.

Although, I don't think anyone should have to justify that the way they play is any type of contribution to the game. Quite inversely, it is more important how the game contributes to the player's entertainment.

The reason arguments are involving phrases such as "how does it hurt you", is simply because any player should be able to do what they wish as long as it doesn't negatively affect another player in some form. Positive contributions, while appreciated, aren't an issue. So, until someone identifies a negative impact of this action on others' gaming experience, why should it not continue.

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Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with.

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ROFL!

Techno,
any player should be able to do what they wish as long as it doesn't negatively affect another player in some form.

This is not true because the designers have rules against cheating. A player can't do what they want in the game. The designers say they will take action against cheaters.
So, I think we have a point that does not stray far from the designers ideas.

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This is not true because the designers have rules against cheating. A player can't do what they want in the game. The designers say they will take action against cheaters.

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I gave you a typical powerleveling sceanrio.
Please answer my question.
What, in that scenario, could be considered cheating?


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Player A is level 40
He groups with Player B who is level 35 and Player C who is level 5
Player B sidekicks player C

Player A proceeds to fight level 40 mobs while B and C are elsewhere in the zone.
Player A shares his XP with B and C who gain XP at level 35 and level 10 respectively.


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Okay, I PMed Statesman directly.

I asked:

"Is standing in a safe zone (like next to a police drone) while higher level teammates level you up considered an intended or acceptable form of behaviour on the part of players?"

His reply:

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Originally posted by Statesman:

No - it's a side consequence of the game being too easy at certain levels. I'm looking into it.

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So AFK Levelling, at least, is not an intended behaviour, and they intend to do something about it.

His comment on "too easy" is curious, though.


-np

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In a sense, it is a game community, as we are all playing it. If you are working on a job and your coworkers were stealing money it may not affect your ability to do your job or even your paycheck, but it would probably make you feel uncomfortable.

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I think your analogy is a bit flawed, in that there's no top-down recognition (salary, positon, etc.) here for all your hard work. I'm not getting paid to do this -- exactly the opposite. I'm paying to be entertained, and my playing the game doesn't affect the game's performance at all (maybe; more on this in a moment). We're not in competition with each other here for the most 'ub3r' character. We're here to have fun.

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The kiosks, badges and such are now putting us in competition with each other to some small degree.

I wonder how the kiosks will come into play here. Are defeats/heals/etc. shared by sidekicks and teams? If a person stands their toon in IP and has a string of friends/greedheads/gullible fools powerlevelling it, will that toon then become the #1 character in that zone? Since the stats last a bit, that toon could remain on the board for quite some time. Anyone who checks that board will see that The Lazy Dorkman (Team Powerleveller) looks like an uber-hero, but the reality would be completely different. Anyone know if that's what would happen?

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His comment on "too easy" is curious, though.

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Curious? Not really.
For some AT/Builds the game game ridiculously easy at 30+

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Also, the designers warn you against using bugs, so that implies that they desire fair leveling. So, the constant argument about PLing not affecting me is not in keeping with the designers wishes. They want equal game play for all.

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There is equal gameplay for all. Everyone has an equal opportunity to PL and be PLed.

I think power leveling is a play style. Power leveling does not mean you are using illegal exploits. It's like when the media got a hold of the word "hacker" and ruined it. Maybe the story is more important to one person, while getting the next level by killing 173 super one armed radio-active monkey's is another. I hear a lot of people say "I worked for my levels...you should have to too". I just laugh when I hear this. For anyone who thinks they are WORKING when they play a mmp...hell, I don't know. Game / Work... don't they contradict each other? Anyway if I were able to make one design decision for a mmp I would do this: After you level one character to max level you get double xp for all alts on 'said' server. What would be the problem with that? I would think it would *help* with people who try to find any means necessary to earn the most xp/hour. And by "any means necessary" I mean using illegal exploits.

NinjaPirate,
Thanks for that! I'm not well-versed with the system here and did not knowthat you could do that. I knew that that had to be the case!

Miir,
we said many times that its the afk Plers that we are opposed to the most. What more is there to say. Time to think it over now that Statesman weighed in.

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Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with. They would constantly use they "how does my behavior affect you" line of reasoning. How did my stealing a car affect you!

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Unless the car was stolen from you it does not directly affect you, but it does affect the person that owned the car. Someone is cheated out of their property.

If I have a job, earn money and buy a car. I earned it.

If someone takes my car without permission they cheated me out of my property.

If I give a friend my car, who is jobless and has no money, does that mean he cheated all the other people who bought a car?

If I want to give up my time and xps to power level a friend how is that any different from me helping a friend out in real life.

If someone's parents are rich and gives them a house, did they cheat in life. Sure it may seem fair, but their parents earned that house and it is theirs to give away.

Why isn't my choice to give my time away to PL a friend? I earned those levels, I earned the ability to be able to help a lower level character?

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One does not have to be affected directly by a behavior to not like it.

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Not liking something does not mean it is cheating.

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They would constantly use they "how does my behavior affect you" line of reasoning. How did my stealing a car affect you! One does not have to be affected directly by a behavior to not like it.


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Well, I would liken this situation more to prostitution than grand theft auto. Even that comparison is reaching. Prostitution is a victimless crime (not in some legalized areas), a simple transaction between two parties (not talking about crack addict style, more high scale). Your prisoner stole a car. You were affected. Victim's insurance affected you by trickle-down effect. Your tax dollars went to the investigation. The list actually goes on. Sort of like the butterfly effect.

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And once again the designers do mention that they do not want people to gain an unfair playing advantage. What more is there to say.

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There is a fine line here. I have been an active member of many online gaming leagues in the past. You'll find that with online gaming, there is no such thing as fair. Someone will always have an "unfair advantage". Just computer and connection specs alone usually involve an "unfair advantage".

The best you can do, as a developer, is to try and remove any discrepency that results in one player being able to directly impact another in a negative fashion (i.e. every time I afk xp, a random blaster loses a power). Easy to do in games such as COH that aren't PvP, but much harder in games like first person shooters.

new category for the kiosks.

Most XP (non)earned by lazy heros. Just records XP earned while further than 200 yards from arrest or XP earned over a period of time without moving.

This whole discussions is bizarre. Talk about non roleplaying.

Late game is more interesting than early game because you get to hit a few more buttons and didn't actually have to work at your toon when they were learning the superhero ropes and maybe had to think about the few powers they had and use them effectively.

So lots and lots and lots of people comment about how easy the game is later on - heros FAR outperform the poor mobs abilities and AI. So this is just another way of

1) Not actually having to think about your development (why bother trying combinations of powers/selected powers when you have your path all thought out but just need someone to hand you 1Million XP to get there
2) Avoiding risk. No deaths, No actual fights, don't play the character until they have uber powers - no stamina early? Don't worry? Don't play the game until your character gets 6 slots on stamina

Illegal, cheating - obviously not or they would implement a SIMPLE rule like they did with KS'ing where you need to be within 200 yards - or maybe they just haven't bothered - YET, but is sure is:

Sad, Sad, Sad - life is full of shortcuts I guess. Maybe the addition of low and mid-range content might change this behaviour a bit and maybe they might actually go look at what's new before they sit back down for their lattes

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This is not true because the designers have rules against cheating. A player can't do what they want in the game. The designers say they will take action against cheaters.
So, I think we have a point that does not stray far from the designers ideas.

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Agreed. Luckily, powerleveling is not cheating. The one bug, which is still not defined as a cheat, that exists is being resolved in issue #2. So why all the discussion?

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They would constantly use they "how does my behavior affect you" line of reasoning. How did my stealing a car affect you! One does not have to be affected directly by a behavior to not like it.

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Like 2 homosexuals engaging in sex in the privacy of their own home.
Some people do not like it and think that it should be illegal.

Since it does not affect you (or anyone else) in any way, shape or form, nor does it contravene any laws... you can feel free to comment on it but you have no right to call them criminals/cheaters/liars/etc.

Boys,
I discussed the financial aspects of PLing long ago and how it can affect the game company. In the way I described it can hurt the company and the game.

I don't feel much of an impact from crime as most of the services that go to prevent it are on a budget. Also, being gay is considered immoral rather than unethical. Morality tends to be more in the religious realm and ethics to be in the secular. So, two gay people having sex does not both me but it might both a religious person because its against the rules.

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Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with.

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LOL, I just spit my drink all over my keyboard reading this. How about you go back to just closing your eyes, ears and repeating cheater over and over as your original argument? That or keep talking about the word ethics.

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Okay, I PMed Statesman directly.

"Is standing in a safe zone (like next to a police drone) while higher level teammates level you up considered an intended or acceptable form of behaviour on the part of players?"

His reply:

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Originally posted by Statesman:

No - it's a side consequence of the game being too easy at certain levels. I'm looking into it.

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Fie upon thee, NinjaPirate, and your loathed common sense! Glad to hear him comment.

I also find the reasoning curious and perhaps a bit flawed -- I hope he elaborates at some point. In my DIRECT experience, powerlevelling happens because:

1) Someone makes an alt and wants to play with their regular group on an even par, partially to have the same power spread, but mostly because of mission level equality. Reverse side-kicking and mission level selection should help with this.

2) Movement powers. I PLed one of my fiance's characters from 12 to 14 so she could get flight. We found the long jogs during levels 1-13 to be boring, plus the wait the level 14+ has for the person who is 13 or less at mission doors (one of the reasons I expect Recall Friend is so incredibly popular).

I don't think "too easy" enters into the equasion. "Not interesting enough", maybe, but that's a different problem.

I'll see if he'll elaborate.

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I think that PLing is a kind of bug in the game. How is it right that a person can just stand there at the train station and level. I know a guy that went from 16 to 32 in four days by PLing. This is not right.
A feature should be added that cuts ex if the character is not moving for a certain time period. I believe that PLing is a form of cheating as it takes advantage of a game feature in a way that was not meant to be.
I have had two amusing encounters with people PLing. The first one was when I encountered some people doing it (they were sitting on the Brick station) and they denied that they were. Then, the one guy suddenly levels! He didn't know what to say! The second was after a week of working to get to 29 I finally made it! I then went to the trainer in Brick and two people leveled while just standing there. It appeared that they weren't even using their character and where afk.
Frankly, this took a little out of the game for me. What is the meaning of planning and spending months on a character and facing death and debt when others don't have to.
Remember games are supposed to have some code of conduct and instant advancement is not usually one of them.

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Not anymore when issue 2 comes out. SK's will be dropped if they are not within range of their mentor. No more standing at the train station are up high on a building. SK's will have to be pretty close and risk having the smack down put on them. I'm sure some one will figure out how to get around it, but for sure you wont see the train station thing anymore.

I like how you claim to be a 'psychologist', call us 'boys' in a transparanet attempt to sound superior and scream childish names like 'cheater'.
I'm guessing that you're, more accurately, a call center phone jockey who did a few years at community college and took a couple of psych courses.

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Also, being gay is considered immoral rather than unethical. Morality tends to be more in the religious realm and ethics to be in the secular. So, two gay people having sex does not both me but it might both a religious person because its against the rules.

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Morals and ethics go hand in hand.
The two are essentially synonymous.

Using your personal morals and ethics to judge someones actions and completely ignoring the accepted code of conduct makes you a bigot, sir.

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I discussed the financial aspects of PLing long ago and how it can affect the game company. In the way I described it can hurt the company and the game.

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I'm sure your financial beliefs fully support previous MMORPGs such as EQ. Yep.. i'm sure power leveling in that game HURT it in the long run lol. Good one.

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Frankly, I am a psychologist, and the arguments here remind me of the prison inmates that I used to work with.

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LOL. We all have the mindsets of inmates. Someone take this guy away from his secluded office and show him around to what we call "the real world"

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No - it's a side consequence of the game being too easy at certain levels. I'm looking into it.

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From what I interpret from this, he's saying that high level game might be too easy. So for instance, people can nuke a large group of lvl 50 mobs and get mass experience without much risk or penalty. So because of this, people get the idea to plvl their alts through this means because they can. Of course for people shadowing, it's inevitable. But the SK situation, there's obviously reasons for why people have discovered and do it. It's legit, and of course an unintentional side effect of the shoddy end game. That's what I believe he is saying. This does not have to do strictly with the end game though, but I see it most used around that time.

Frankly Miir,

I'm a 37 year old clinical psychologist from Philadelphia.
I have a masters in health car admin.
A masters in counseling psychology
A masters in clinical psychology
A doctorate in clinical psychology
I have 15 years experience in the field of psychology.
I like people that take things seriously.
I never cheated to get any of those degrees.
I enjoy video games because they take me away from the human [censored] pile that I am used to dealing with. Can I get any more honest than that?
More importantly, what do you think about the Statesman?

Yeah, but my dad can beat up your dad!


And you're still a bigot.

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Not anymore when issue 2 comes out. SK's will be dropped if they are not within range of their mentor. No more standing at the train station are up high on a building. SK's will have to be pretty close and risk having the smack down put on them. I'm sure some one will figure out how to get around it, but for sure you wont see the train station thing anymore.

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Not if the Mentor is there at the tram hanging out as well.

It won't change anything, it will just slow experience down a minor amount forcing the mentor to group up and get some exp as well.