Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, it's not illegal.
^^ Fact.
But it is poor game design.
^^ Opinion.
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How is a mechanism that encourages players to NOT play the game ever anything but a bad thing?
Every part of the game should ideally encourage folks to actively participate in the game.
Anything that discourages such is bad game design.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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Here's another idea. The game takes your highest level character and remembers his/her level. Until you reach that level you earn 50% (or 75% or whatever) more xp than normal. You continue to earn the bonus xp until you reach that remembered level). If you sk to someone higher than the remembered level, you earn regular xp.
Won't solve most of the PLing problems but will alleviate it a small amount AND will help encourage people to play alts, which just adds replay value which is good.
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I think this is a nice suggestion as well. There should be some form of encuoragement to want to play a secondary character and so on. Not have to tread through zones you've been through over and over again bored out of your mind.
I like these ideas and would love to see them implemented. As it stands now though we're far off from this being addressed and as of yet Cryptic hasn't taken a stand to oppose or support this. The game is flawed, it's not necessarily a mechanic of CoH but in all MMOG in general.
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no im just tired of the "fact" being stated that there is no work being done....i have posted that once and people are still saying"i have a problem with blah blah blah" when the majority that get pl'ed and pl do what i said...they pl each others alts. Not sensitive just tired of the lies.
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I don't mean this to sound nearly as cruel as it's going to sound, but...Isn't that a little arrogant on your part? Yours is not the final word on the subject. When you speak (er post), it's not time for everyone to fall into line behind you...
This is one reason why I cant wait for Middle Earth Online. Leveling is 'REAL' time. Now dont grind to level. You dont exp per kill. You sepnd your time exploring the game and doing adventurous things. Unfortunately, there will probably be time sinks some other way. In my opinion I would have to say ALL MMOs are not fun to play. Some things in the game are fun to do, but after the novelty of doing certain things has worn off, they become repetitive and boring. Then the new things you run into is more of the same with just different skins or more hitpoints. There isnt enough adventure, boss encounters, etc - there is too much exp farming, time sink, and repetitive play in MMOs. Thats why people power level, thats why they pay to have others level them (check online services), thats why they use Ebay to by already maxed out characters. The "journey" is too boring, too slow. And yep I know, some of you out there have a real good knack for RPing and have good friends who make up for what the game lacks and you still find it fun - all you need is a graphic world and some buttons to mash and you will fill in the rest.
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It is my opinion to gain experience without risk is unnatural and is therefore a bug in the game mechanics
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The mobs aren't killing themselves.
Someone on your team is taking a risk to defeat them.
As for your selective definitions of 'Team', try these:
To form a team or an association. Often used with up.
To harness or join together so as to form a team.
Group
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Simply being on a team does merit the reward.
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So you're essentially saying thet every member of a team must contribute to the defeat of every villian, otherwise they should not receive any experience?
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As long as the person hanging in the back is in some danger from the mobs being fought I have no issue with it. You are taking the risk so should reap the rewards.
I only have an issue where the risk part is non-existant.
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When I do solo missions on my scrappers, there is zero risk.
I can herd up every single mob in my mission and afk forever hours while they try to beat me up.
I have no risk of dying... zero, zilch, nada... absolutely none.
By your rules, I should not receive any experience from defeating those mobs.
Is this accurate?
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But you are never going to convince me that the devs EVER intended for a player to deliberately be able to level up while AFK or otherwise taking zero risk to himself.
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So what really bothers you is that they are afk... flaunting their powerlevelage... rubbing your nose in it... mocking you...
What if they were moving around... or sitting on the top of the Zig... or sitting under a bridge somewhere?
Out of sight, out of mind maybe?
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.) PLing just cheats you out of gameplay fun. City of Heroes is not about just being level 50.
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I totally agree.
But I think most powerlevelers are really just leveling up alts so they don't have to go through the lower level content that they have probably been through 5-6 times already.
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Well you know, I have to put up with ugly costumes and stupid names too. Guess we should ban those too.
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While you're at it, ban the idiots who think 'ne' is an acceptable spelling for 'any'
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No risk is no risk. No risk should equal no reward.
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So giving a newbie 10k influence is an exploit/cheating in your opinion?
Since they took no risk to gain the influence they are not entitled to it.
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Have you teamed with a level 32 controller that did not do any CC and only was trying to deal dmg and letting the pet running around? I have. This guy didn't even use blind or flash. The way he was play was so weird and he kept on kissing the dirt and take group memeber with him.
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Crappy players affect everyone.
Powerleveling != Bad Players
Playing COH badly is not against the rules.
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Gaining experience (knowledge or skill resulting from observing or acquaintance with facts or events) through inactivity is unnatural and thus the definition is achieved.
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The way in which the experience is gained is via normal game mechanics... defeating mobs.
The mobs are not defeating themselves.
There is nothing in the rules stating that a player must actively partake in defeating mobs in order to gain experience.
Shared team experience is an existing game mechanic.
Powerleveling uses 2 basic game mechanics (defeting mobs, shared team XP).
If the developers did not intend for teammates to share XP, they would not have incorporated that mechanic.
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And I'm tired of people on the Broadcast channel spamming "PL me, Plz". If everyone is trading work with their Supergroups, no one would be doing this. Looks like an existence proof that at least *someone* or many someones are not using the method you're describing.
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Those people aren't powerlevelers, they are losers.
They see other people powerlevelign thier alts or friends and think that they should be entitled to powerleveling.
In actuality, the powerlevel beggars are usually stupid kids with no friends or Supergroup. They are most often really terrible players who have minimal understanding of game mechanics.
They annoy powerlevelers and non-powerlevelers alike.
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This is one reason why I cant wait for Middle Earth Online. Leveling is 'REAL' time. Now dont grind to level. You dont exp per kill. You sepnd your time exploring the game and doing adventurous things. Unfortunately, there will probably be time sinks some other way. In my opinion I would have to say ALL MMOs are not fun to play. Some things in the game are fun to do, but after the novelty of doing certain things has worn off, they become repetitive and boring. Then the new things you run into is more of the same with just different skins or more hitpoints. There isnt enough adventure, boss encounters, etc - there is too much exp farming, time sink, and repetitive play in MMOs. Thats why people power level, thats why they pay to have others level them (check online services), thats why they use Ebay to by already maxed out characters. The "journey" is too boring, too slow. And yep I know, some of you out there have a real good knack for RPing and have good friends who make up for what the game lacks and you still find it fun - all you need is a graphic world and some buttons to mash and you will fill in the rest.
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Personally I like leveling but I would be happier with a skill point system. I think GURPS Supers, Champions and even Fallout did great jobs at representing that kind of system. I hear that's what CoH was originally and it didn't work because it was too easy to gimp a hero. I think that's a shame...
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How is a mechanism that encourages players to NOT play the game ever anything but a bad thing?
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So, by your (still flawed) rationale, if I login to chat with my friends, that constitutes "bad game design." I guess they should take out the chat feature unless you're actively fighting, since it encourages people to "not participate int he game." Right? Makes sense to me, at least based on your "my opinion of gameplay design is the only right one," kind of logic.
How is your definition of "playing the game" more right than anyone else's? If someone wants to "play the game" by getting PL'd to 20 before they start hitting the streets to fight some crime, why is your way better than theirs? They are having fun, they are in the game, they are interacting with people and accomplishing goals; granted, perhaps not in the way you "think they should," but what difference does it make to you?
They pay their money to "play the game," however they see fit to maximize their enjoyment. If that means wandering the streets seeing the sights while a friend of theirs is off sweeping up villians and passing off the XP, why must you take issue with this?
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what difference does it make to you?
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That's a question that's constantly being asked to these people, and they are unwilling to answer. This thread has been 36 pages of the same stuff reiterated over and over.
Guys its cheating.
NinjaPirate knows what he's talking about. Its clear that the guy has a professional attitude and knowledge base.
To Icarus and the bunch please tell me what is cheating? What more would one have to do? Being afk and still collecting points in a game. If a person is Pling at the station it would be possible for them to be at the supermarket shopping. How is this playing a game?
Its cheating.
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NinjaPirate knows what he's talking about. Its clear that the guy has a professional attitude and knowledge base.
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It's also clear that you are close minded with no sense of direction in your arguments. This whole thread started by you seems more like flamebait for your amusement to annoy people.
If you answer the question I quoted above for Icarus, then it may make your accusations credible. However, since you did not, I'm going to make a statement similar to yours: "You are unethical. Throwing accusations without reason or for self pleasure is not a very ethical thing to do for someone who opposes unethical practices such as cheating." Contradictions abundant with the credibility the size of your brain. Enjoy.
PLing allows you to put together builds that nobody in their right mind could have leveled using the normal route.
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PLing allows you to put together builds that nobody in their right mind could have leveled using the normal route.
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The respec mission will allow the same thing.
V,
The idea of ethics is very important to me. It has alot to do with my job in the medical field.
Ethics is the discipline of dealing with what is good and bad and ones moral obligation and duty. (Websters)
A person does not have to have a deep reason to follow through on the confrontation of unethical behavior. It's a duty.
You and many others attempt to question my motives. I'm a person that does not like cheating and unethical behavior here or anywhere. In life I am a trustworthy person and it is reflected here to. Here we have a game. The game has rules Pling seems to violate some of those rules. Maybe I'm wrong but I can see how Pling isn't an exploit.
Also, why don't you show some guts and tell me how it is that a person could go shopping and still play the game. Put yourself out there brother and answer.
Finally, this is the first post that I have ever made on any kind of board like this. Flamebaiting is not a term that I even know. It sounds like some form of prostitution. As I said before, I was simply enjoying a great game and noticed what I thought was a weird feature. Its a value system thing for me. Not everyone has one so I understand.
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To Icarus and the bunch please tell me what is cheating?
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Cheating is exploiting a bug to gain an unfair advantage over another player(s).
Powerleveling uses game mechanics to maximise XP gain.
1) Shared team experience
2) Defeating mobs
3) Sidekicking
4) Maximum level range for XP gain
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If a person is Pling at the station it would be possible for them to be at the supermarket shopping. How is this playing a game?
Its cheating.
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The crux of your argument is based on your opinion that players who do not contribute to the team should not receive experience.
I can accept and respect that.
What ruins any credibility you might have is your crying that powerlevelers are cheaters.
If the developers see fit to change game mechanics so that non-contributors receive no XP, then I will accept that.
But the fact of the matter is that it is not possible, given the restraints of the game engine, to accurately quantify someones contribution to a team.
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Guys its cheating.
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Guys it's not cheating.
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NinjaPirate knows what he's talking about. Its clear that the guy has a professional attitude and knowledge base.
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Ahh, classic; "The guy who agrees with more is quite obviously correct. I mean, just look at him being all agreeable with me and stuff! How could he be wrong?"
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To Icarus and the bunch please tell me what is cheating?
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Sorry, but that question has no simple answer. It's quite complex, and often strays into the realm of opinion, as we see evidence of here in this thread. In the end it's up to the developers to decide what they think is within the rules of the game and what is outside the bounds, and to adjust the mechanics accordingly.
As it stands, PLing is a perfectly legitimate application of the rules and mechanics of grouping and XP distribution. We have no way of knowing what the developers actual intentions are, without making some pretty serious assumptions; they could very well condone PLing in all its forms as a means to level up your ALTs as well as help out your newbie friends who want to "skip" the low level content and get right to the beefy stuff. You may not think this is the "right" way to play the game, but as they are not breaking any established rules, it's unfair to call them cheaters or liars. Lazy? Perhaps; but that's about it.
Being afk and still collecting points in a game. If a person is Pling at the station it would be possible for them to be at the supermarket shopping. How is this playing a game?
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Ever play Sim City? I've probably put more time into that game "AFK" than I have at my keyboard.
What about EQ, DAoC, etc.? Ever have a friend give you any equipment or money that you didn't directly participate in the acquisition of? Technically, that's "advancing" and "gaining points" while AFK -- you weren't there, so why should you benefit, right? Well, you should benefit because your friend has agreed to donate his time to your advancement, even though you didn't contribute. Same situation, just different means to measure the acquisition of power/points in question.
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How is a mechanism that encourages players to NOT play the game ever anything but a bad thing?
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So, by your (still flawed) rationale, if I login to chat with my friends, that constitutes "bad game design." I guess they should take out the chat feature unless you're actively fighting, since it encourages people to "not participate int he game." Right? Makes sense to me, at least based on your "my opinion of gameplay design is the only right one," kind of logic.
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Eh, even chatting is participating to some degree.
While I will admit that any sort of reward without risk grates a bit on my design sense, I really am only bothered by the AFK levelers. When I see someone AFK next to a police drone for hours while leveling up over and over, something's very wrong with the system. And I see this quite a bit.
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How is your definition of "playing the game" more right than anyone else's?
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You know, this kind of statement puzzles me. Isn't the whole concept of discussion to express your opinion? I don't recall ever telling anyone to "shut up" or "You MUST accept my words". I've only posited my positions and my reasonings behind those positions.
Me, I base my reasonings on game design principles that are well established and accepted by most folks in such design fields. "Risk = Reward." "Always engage the player." "Idle time is bad." My thoughts are coming from not on what affects me personally, but on what would help or harm the long term quality of the game.
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If someone wants to "play the game" by getting PL'd to 20 before they start hitting the streets to fight some crime, why is your way better than theirs?
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You'll note I did suggest an ability to "unlock" higher level characters if you have already leveled another one to the top.
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They are having fun, they are in the game, they are interacting with people and accomplishing goals; granted, perhaps not in the way you "think they should," but what difference does it make to you?
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Why does anything have to affect me personally for me to be interested in it, or to want to discuss flaws I see in it?
This is another thing that puzzles me. Folks actually thinking that "leave them alone, they're not bothering you" is any sort of valid arguement. The ONLY time I EVER see that phrase used is in reference to something that everyone knows isn't proper anyway. It's the sort of defense I hear from punks spraypainting tags on fences. Or the guy smoking pot. It's tantamount to an admission of guilt.
I'd love it if anyone would come up with solid reasons why powerleveling, more specifically AFK leveling, is a POSITIVE contributor to the game. In any way.
But so far all I've heard is, "Hey, man, we got a good thing here, why can't you leave it alone?"
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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I'd love it if anyone would come up with solid reasons why powerleveling, more specifically AFK leveling, is a POSITIVE contributor to the game. In any way.
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Let me try; there are players out there who want to do it. They enjoy doing it, and hence enjoy their time in the game. They have fun leaving their keyboard and coming back later to an extra level and a new power, or what have you. It's how they choose to participate in the game to a given degree. It's what they want to do.
Combined with the fact that it does not adversely affect anyone or anything else in the game, it sounds to me like that's reason enough.
uh...i... what was the topic again...i was...distracted by your avatar......... oh yeah now I remember...power leveling! How does it work (for use new to the game)?
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Guys its cheating.
NinjaPirate knows what he's talking about. Its clear that the guy has a professional attitude and knowledge base.
To Icarus and the bunch please tell me what is cheating? What more would one have to do? Being afk and still collecting points in a game. If a person is Pling at the station it would be possible for them to be at the supermarket shopping. How is this playing a game?
Its cheating.
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Then stop saying PLing is cheating. It's possible to PL and not cheat. Yet the blanket statement "PL is cheating" is being stated over and over.
You just qualified it yourself by stating "if the person is PLing at the station..." This means it's possible to PL somewhere else and *gasp* contribute to the team.
The definition issue has been brought up by both "sides." Please stop using the term powerleveling and call it what it is...
Non-contributing team members gaining XP while in relatively safe areas.
The problem is everyone likes simple and descriptive terms. PL doesn't really describe this yet it's being used over and over again. (and yes, it's that definition thing again) I propose a new term for this behavior. Silly AFK XP, for now on please use the term SAX. This in no way should be associated with the wind instrument but clever referals to sex will get bonus points.
Something like... Hey! Check out the lowbie in Bricks SAXing it up!
On Justice
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But the fact of the matter is that it is not possible, given the restraints of the game engine, to accurately quantify someones contribution to a team.
The designers have done this in many ways. A players gets a warning if their sk is too far away. You do not get points if you are in a different zone, etc.
Also, the designers warn you against using bugs, so that implies that they desire fair leveling. So, the constant argument about PLing not affecting me is not in keeping with the designers wishes. They want equal game play for all.
I don't care that other games are full of cheaters. I'm not playing them.
Icarus it seem like you think that you are very deft with the argeuments but frankly you do not address the strange afk leveling ability, and you can't counter NinjaPirate's knowledge of design. Finally, all of the vague stuff about "what is cheating" is silly. Games have rules. It just some happens that computer games have many different factors and are dynamic, so they make cheating easier and sometimes harder to define. I think that being at the mall and Paragon city at the same time makes the issue pretty clear.
Let me give the best analogy I can:
What we have is a backed up busy interstate off ramp. We have people sitting patiently in line to exit the interstate. Occasionally we have a driver who drives past the majority of the line in hopes of wiggling in. He does. Now all the people, who just saw this, are angry because that one driver skipped way ahead of them without having to wait. They aren't exactly jealous. They do wish they could do the same, but are bound by their beliefs that sitting in line was the proper thing to do and someone who jumps ahead is cheating the system.
Clearly, this isn't the best analogy, as this ignores many points regarding the "powerleveled" car taking up space ahead and slowing your progress. The situation also cannot involve how many times the "powerleveled" driver has taken the route. This doesn't show that this driver is any worse of a driver than anyone else waiting, as I am sure there are worse drivers sitting behind him in line now.
Maybe a better analogy would involve pointing to the guy who let him in as the powerleveler.
But, if nothing else, it shows a situation that most people find is not right. It isn't illegal. There isn't a high degree of jealousy by the driver who has been waiting patiently, only disdain for the actions of that other driver. Both drivers can be moral and have standup character traits.
In the end, it's a moot point if the "powerleveled" car took up no space and caused you no delays... as it is in COH. This is why pl'ers want to know how it's hurting others. I would suspect that if someone came up with a valid point as to why these actions cause them personal grief, many/most powerlevelers would find a way not to intrude or possibly stop. As it is, no one has made one.
P.S. Broadcast messages would be like horns? Since everyone is hitting them, including people not involved, it can be removed as a valid arguement against pl'ing.
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The designers have done this in many ways. A players gets a warning if their sk is too far away. You do not get points if you are in a different zone, etc.
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None of those quantify a players contribution to a team.
They simply put physical/distance limits on principal game mechanics.
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Also, the designers warn you against using bugs, so that implies that they desire fair leveling.
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Since nobody has gotten warned, suspended or banned for powerleveling, we can positively state that powerleveling (or gaining XP while AFK) is neither a bug nor an exploit.
Here's a scenario:
Player A is level 40
He groups with Player B who is level 35 and Player C who is level 5
Player B sidekicks player C
Player A proceeds to fight level 40 mobs while B and C are elsewhere in the zone.
Player A shares his XP with B and C who gain XP at level 35 and level 10 respectively.
This is the standard scenario for powerleveling.
Please indicate where cheating or the exploiting of bugs occurs in that scenario.
If a person PLs themself. Has two accounts, is that cheating? The person is at the computer playing and earning the xps by playing one of the characters while the other is a the T stop? They are actively contributing to the team.
Also the person doing the PLing has made a decision to reduce their own xps to help another gain xps.
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If someone wants to "play the game" by getting PL'd to 20 before they start hitting the streets to fight some crime, why is your way better than theirs?
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You'll note I did suggest an ability to "unlock" higher level characters if you have already leveled another one to the top.
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Ok, let's roll with that.
How does this actually differ from powerleveling, with the condition that I stop powerleveling a toon once it hits 20.
Am I not just using what is available to me now to accomplish the same goal? In fact, I am actually doing A LOT more work. I could put a good 10-12 hours to powerlevel a toon up to 20. What you suggest would remove my time taken completely.
I would propose that if you find your suggestion reasonable, you would also find powerleveling (up to 20, providing you already have a high lvl toon) more than acceptable.
BTW, that suggestion has been made many times over the last few months with different ideas for level ranges. So far nothing. Regardless, I support any decent implementation of this.
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Well, not to be a jerk (as I am in principle in agreement with you), but actually most superheroes seem to get power and glory by doing nothing. The X-men were natural mutants born with their abilities, Spider-man didn't 'work' to acquire the abilities he posessed, the Fantastic Four were victims of an accident and Superman did absolutely nothing to acheive his powers. In fact, I would say it may be more the exception than the rule that a superhero in comics gains his/her powers through hard work and dedication than through dumb luck or fate...
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well if superman and the xman had just stayed at home they wouldnt have been very famous, so they did actually have to go out and do something. And most super heros get better/ more proficient at using their powers some even do develop new powers, which if you look at the power pools as a power and the levels not as new skills but development of base power that fits in quite nicely with actually doing stuff rather than sitting ion the train.