Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Pling isn't cheating then it is the most unusual game feature that I have ever seen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gee how is having friends higher level than you cheating? Seriously, the anti-PL people really sound like they're sickly jealous of those who can progress levels faster than them.
~ A A ~
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the real culprit here is the multiple definitions we have for PLing.
My definition:
Simple SKing = Not PLing
Grouping with someone within the 8 lvl limit = Not PLing
AFK and earning XP = Not PLing (lazy and stupid, but not PLing)
Using a combination of SKing, range + grouping to your advantage = PLing and exploiting
Using any exploit to level a lower level unnaturally fast = PLing
To me PLing occurs outside of the rules. It's bending the rules or looking for loopholes to maximize xp for a lower level.
Anyhow, I think this thread falls victim to the multiple definitions players have. One person is insisting it's cheating because they have a definition that matches mine, while another says get over it and stop whining because their definition is simple SKing and AFK earning. The sad reality is, if they truly understood each others definition, they might actually agree. Instead they shout at each other for multiple pages.
*shrugs*
At least that's how I'm reading things at this point...
[ QUOTE ]
Well after all of this I would love to here what the designers have to say! You can tell by the amount of posts that this topic is of interest to many people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Powerleveling will always be a controversial topic.
The developers will not try to stop powerleveling aside from fixing some things that they consider to be exploits. Trying to stop powerleveling would probably have a much more negative impact on non-powerlevelers, since it's likely that they'd wind up inadvertently nerfing legitimate leveling methods. It isn't worth it to a developer.
Keep in mind that what is being changed about the current exploit will only have a very small effect on using it to PL, because aside from one factor it IS a valid leveling method. Right now, to provide an example, this is what is happening:
- Level 34 player forms a group with level 2 player
- Level 29 player sidekicks the level 2 but doesn't join the group
- Level 29 stays with the level 2 in some safe area while the level 34 player solos
- The level 2 player gains exp approximately on the scale of a level 2 defeating level 5 or 6 mobs, since their effective level is 27 or 28. The level 29 stays out of the group in order not to leech any experience from the level 2.
What is being changed is that in the scenario above, the level 29 would need to join the group. That's it. They can still do what they're doing and they can still powerlevel the level 2, it will only be slowed down a small amount.
Since powerleveling doesn't really affect other players, aside perhaps from offending their sense of (pick one- fair play, ethics, entitlement, etc), and since "fixing" the issue would probably create more problems than it solves, it isn't something that developers are likely to worry about.
No PLing is not cheating. Using an exploit to level is cheating.
My definition of PLing would be a low level character being buffed, healed, or some other activity by a higher level character to keep the lower level character from dying, such as a high level tank provoking low level mobs while the low level character kills them.
The low level hero is not grouped with the high level character. I do not think your friends helping you is cheating at all, but it certainly would be boring for the one doing the PLing.
I don't have a problem with a difference of opinion. I've read every thread here and saw both sides of the matter. I'm a pro pl'er as I am guilty of doing this. The biggest problem people seem to have is the level of risk and person being pl'ed hanging out at the tram levelling up with no effort.
If the devs do end up changing this it's not going to stop people who wish to pl at all. Ever heard of the follow command? I've done this many times whether a friend is afk and I drag them around getting exp while they're away or helping out a friend or my own character to get exp and debuff the enemies for me.
There are many ways to pl is what I'm getting at, sure you could complain until finally something is done. I could see the devs initiating a radius to the group member "arresting" a enemy in order to get exp for anyone in the group.
It's not going to stop myself or the many others who are helping out their friends, family and guild mates. As far as the belief there is no risk for anyone in the group if you want the best experience possible you'll be killing yellow/orange/red and purple enemies opposing the highest level person in your group.
We should just agree to disagree, everyone has their opinion on this matter and both sides have good reasons.
The only problem I have is with the original poster TheAdlerian. He's a troll, with ignorant analogies and comparing this game to real life because it's a "simulation" to real life afterall...he won't listen to another opinion because he just closes his eyes and ears and resorts to calling anyone opposing him a cheater.
Personally, I would like to hear a devs response to the matter.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Pling isn't cheating then it is the most unusual game feature that I have ever seen.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you never played EQ, E&B, or any of a number of other online games. You can powerlevel in many of them without doing a thing. Just sitting there in group.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thing of it is, I cannot for one minute believe that developers in ANY of these games actually like or condone powerleveling. I would strongly suspect it's a case of "we don't like it, it's a problem, but it would be too much of a hassle/we can't be bothered to properly deal with it". It's the sort of activity that skews way outside of intended design parameters and is generally a headache.
However, the devs here have repeatedly shown that they will in fact take the time and effort to correct even problematic design flaws like this. Therfore I have hope that it WILL be addressed in CoH.
Powerleveling is a pure case of meta-game thinking, of thinking as a player standing outside the game looking at rules and code, rather than a character operating within the given setting of the game. In some games you get folks that are particularly obsessive in this kind of thinking, going as far as to create formulas and spreadsheets to get that .01% more efficientcy out of their character.
These are folks that think of their character more as collections of numbers than a character.
To me it's like watching a movie by hitting fast forward to get to the end faster. Sure, you finish the movie in a fraction of the time, but what's the point?
At least in many other games the action is mostly concentrated at the end of the play time, somewhat justifying the fast-forwarding, but in CoH the action is fairly well spread out across the entire level range. Why fast forward past the good parts? 
I do understand the wanting not to have to level through a second, third or later character AGAIN after the first time, and it's a valid concern. Perhaps you could have a level 20 or so character unlocked after you get one character to level 50? I dunno.
As I said earlier, my ire is mostly focused on those folks parked at the tram leveling up. As long as you are actively trying to contribute to your team and are taking the risks, I have no issues with you fighting with folks even 30 levels above you - more power to you if you can do this.
But no game should award you for just standing around doing nothing.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
Any fix to earning XP without risk is going to be very, very tricky for the devs. Some of the proposed solutions:
TimeOuts for AFK earners = They just won't be afk
Distance for earning xp = They'll just follow but stay out of aggro range
Earning XP without fighting = hurts support heroes
Even if they change it so you have to be within aggro range to earn xp, what about runners who are taking DoT? What about patrol missions? What about regular groups that are spread out?
This is a pretty tricky problem (if it's a problem at all). The only solution I can think of is to degrade over time xp for SKs who aren't contributing. You can say that the SK has to prove themselves, or earn their keep...Healing/buffing a group member or a master would count as contributing. Of course, PL'd SKs will just throw in a buff or a heal here and there to offset this, but at least it requires some work on their part.
For anyone who knows programming this how it work...
1. Place a counter with the SK every time they contribute. Multiple contributions in a very short time don't count (i.e. casting 7 heals in 30 seconds)...
2. Slightly drop the counter over time.
3. If the counter = 0 then decrease xp over time
[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty tricky problem (if it's a problem at all). The only solution I can think of is to degrade over time xp for SKs who aren't contributing. You can say that the SK has to prove themselves, or earn their keep...Healing/buffing a group member or a master would count as contributing. Of course, PL'd SKs will just throw in a buff or a heal here and there to offset this, but at least it requires some work on their part.
For anyone who knows programming this how it work...
1. Place a counter with the SK every time they contribute. Multiple contributions in a very short time don't count (i.e. casting 7 heals in 30 seconds)...
2. Slightly drop the counter over time.
3. If the counter = 0 then decrease xp over time
[/ QUOTE ]
Set a power to auto-cycle. You'll be continuously casting it. Whatever rate you're counting at will be fulfilled. If no power cast more often than X counts, then choose a long recycle time power that doesn't affect targets but validly could be useful to a group--like Accelerate Metabolism.
Under construction
Oh, come on, folks. Power-leveling is realistic.
Stand around looking like a lazy idiot while your more powerful buddies do things and hand you power?
How do you think George W. became (acting) President anyway?
Yes, but is it heroic?
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but is it heroic?
-np
[/ QUOTE ]
Course not. As you can plainly see when you look back at certain National Guard records...
I have to say, this whole thread cracks me up.
Folks, it's a game!!
Unless what someone else is doing directly relates to your experience, why should you care?
I know that I hated seing trust fund babies drive around in BMW's in Highschool, but that was envy. I choose to be annoyed by that.
The stuff that happened in Counterstrike was REAL cheating! Folks were changing the game. That directly affected other players.
A just as valid gripe would be "Hey that Defender is just standing around healing, he's not even fighting, why should he get xp?"
Live and let live. My personal take on it is this. My friends and I have a group of characters that we team on a regular basis. I joined late, so my character is lower level. Our team can't take some missions or go to certain zones because of my level, this diminishes our choices (and further our fun). Add to this the nerf that is coming for Illusion and my character will become even less usefull than he is right now. If that is true, I will be very happy to PL a new toon so that I can continue to play with my friends.
The point of the game is to have fun, not to EARN anything. That's a job. I want to have fun with my friends. Sure, earning the powers makes it more fun, but not when you can't play with your friends because of level disparities. The only way to get up to speed is through PLing or plodding. When your trying to reach a certain level (for whatever reasojn), the leveling becomes grinding. PLing is an option to aleviate that grind and increase the fun to grind ratio.
[ QUOTE ]
Thing of it is, I cannot for one minute believe that developers in ANY of these games actually like or condone powerleveling. I would strongly suspect it's a case of "we don't like it, it's a problem, but it would be too much of a hassle/we can't be bothered to properly deal with it". It's the sort of activity that skews way outside of intended design parameters and is generally a headache.
However, the devs here have repeatedly shown that they will in fact take the time and effort to correct even problematic design flaws like this. Therfore I have hope that it WILL be addressed in CoH.
[/ QUOTE ]
The difference is whether they like it or not it's part of the game. It would be impossible to stop some form of pl'ing. This game encourages it with the sk feature which I think is a really good feature. Many problems with games like EQ is the inability to play with your friends unless you're close to their level. It made it incredibly hard for someone to get into a game and spend the thousands of hours to catch up to your friends just to play.
With the sk feature it gives people the ability to have fun the moment they jump in the game regardless of level. Yes, they may not be contributing very much but they have a active part in the group and experience stuff they won't for many levels.
I'd suspsect there are easily thousands of people that pl in some form or another in this game as any other MMOG. In EQ it was incredibly important to have certain classes for raids and most of the time some guilds would have more than a quarter of their members 2-boxing (playing two characters at the same time).
The devs would be upsetting quite a few people by taking out any form of pl'ing period. I know they'll make changes like taking away the ability for someone to gain exp sitting miles away from the group who's doing the killing. They did this in EQ and it worked rather well. This won't stop pl'ing in the slightest though, people will camp a spot and pull within the radius to kill. Or, just have their character use the follow command to stay close to them while they kill.
[ QUOTE ]
I do understand the wanting not to have to level through a second, third or later character AGAIN after the first time, and it's a valid concern. Perhaps you could have a level 20 or so character unlocked after you get one character to level 50? I dunno.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a excellent idea and would love to see this added in the game as a reward. This would take care of many of the problems people have with the games earlier levels. It most likely wouldn't happen though, they're taking great effort to adding in content for all levels and would feel they're taking away from their game by letting people skip it.
[ QUOTE ]
Thing of it is, I cannot for one minute believe that developers in ANY of these games actually like or condone powerleveling. I would strongly suspect it's a case of "we don't like it, it's a problem, but it would be too much of a hassle/we can't be bothered to properly deal with it". It's the sort of activity that skews way outside of intended design parameters and is generally a headache.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I suspect the development team is split just like we are in this thread. I am certain there are some powermongering number-crunching developers on every team. Some that see this as ok for the most part. I am sure all teams do look to impose a certain level of limit. Even the pro-PL members of the Dev team would support some limits. But, I'd be certain that the degree of restrictions supported vary across the spectrum from those development team members.
[ QUOTE ]
Powerleveling is a pure case of meta-game thinking, of thinking as a player standing outside the game looking at rules and code, rather than a character operating within the given setting of the game. In some games you get folks that are particularly obsessive in this kind of thinking, going as far as to create formulas and spreadsheets to get that .01% more efficientcy out of their character.
These are folks that think of their character more as collections of numbers than a character.
[/ QUOTE ]
The "pure" roleplayer vs "pure" powergamer arguement which has been going on for decades.
[ QUOTE ]
To me it's like watching a movie by hitting fast forward to get to the end faster. Sure, you finish the movie in a fraction of the time, but what's the point?
At least in many other games the action is mostly concentrated at the end of the play time, somewhat justifying the fast-forwarding, but in CoH the action is fairly well spread out across the entire level range. Why fast forward past the good parts?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I think it is more akin to taping your favorite show and skipping the commercials. Or, watching one of your favorite movies and skipping the "slow" spots. Or, the parts you simply don't like. It's a viewer's choice on how they "like" to view things.
[ QUOTE ]
But no game should award you for just standing around doing nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing of it is that most online games DO allow rewards for just standing around in a team. For doing nothing. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It simply makes it the way it is. It may not be desirable behavior to some. But, it isn't illegal behavior. As such, it also isn't cheating.
Here's another idea. The game takes your highest level character and remembers his/her level. Until you reach that level you earn 50% (or 75% or whatever) more xp than normal. You continue to earn the bonus xp until you reach that remembered level). If you sk to someone higher than the remembered level, you earn regular xp.
Won't solve most of the PLing problems but will alleviate it a small amount AND will help encourage people to play alts, which just adds replay value which is good.
It's not a matter of not "understanding" your defintion, it's a matter of totally disagreeing with it. Your whole argument is predicated on the assumption that PLing is a "form of cheating." You have done nothing, nothing to support this claim.
It's a clever application of the rules, yes, but isn't that what powergamers are all about? You're not being forced to participate, nor are you being affected by the result -- as noted by your various failed attempts to show how PLing somehow affects people who don't do it.
You might not be jealous, but if that's not your motivation then what are you left with except that you don't "think" people should be allowed to do it? In other words, all your arguing is that, in your opinion, it's not a legitimately way to level.
Well, I hate to be harsh, but your opinion is irrelevant. Until you can show that PLing is cheating in some concrete manner, or that it somehow adversely affects those that are not participating, then you simply have no argument beyond "I think it should be," and frankly, that's no argument at all.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But no game should award you for just standing around doing nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing of it is that most online games DO allow rewards for just standing around in a team. For doing nothing. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It simply makes it the way it is. It may not be desirable behavior to some. But, it isn't illegal behavior. As such, it also isn't cheating.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's not illegal.
But it is poor game design.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is that there are many group activities in the game and a lot of interaction, so it is not a simple game that you play by yourself.
Perhaps the analogy was not the best but I think that watching people cheat at the same activity that you are performing is annoying. Also, I don't believe that payment for the game entitles people to cheat. I'm sure that the developers didn't design a cheat system into the game. I would like to know what they think.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not cheating, it's playing a game you paid for the way you want to.
DANGIT....im going to post this one more [censored] time.....you say its not right that they camp there getting xp. Well when someone PL's you its MOSTLY a SG member or a friend of yours. When they roll and ALT you have to do the same thing. So actually you DO work i know it is hard for you to believe now shut the [censored] up. You have not provided any good evidence that power leveling is cheating. It is a way to get by the low levels but its not a way to get 50 in one hour by expoiting the system. You still have to do work when getting powerleveled so quit saying that PL'ers do nothing....i have to do my part jsut like my buddys do theres. Like i said get some strong evidence other than comparing it to crimes, and saying its wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, come on, folks. Power-leveling is realistic.
Stand around looking like a lazy idiot while your more powerful buddies do things and hand you power?
How do you think George W. became (acting) President anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
THE SECOND BEST POST ON THIS TREAD!!!
No, it's not illegal.
^^ Fact.
But it is poor game design.
^^ Opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
DANGIT....im going to post this one more [censored] time.....you say its not right that they camp there getting xp. Well when someone PL's you its MOSTLY a SG member or a friend of yours. When they roll and ALT you have to do the same thing. So actually you DO work i know it is hard for you to believe now shut the [censored] up. You have not provided any good evidence that power leveling is cheating. It is a way to get by the low levels but its not a way to get 50 in one hour by expoiting the system. You still have to do work when getting powerleveled so quit saying that PL'ers do nothing....i have to do my part jsut like my buddys do theres. Like i said get some strong evidence other than comparing it to crimes, and saying its wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, overly sensitive much? If this issue is causing you that much pain I suggest you stop reading the thread.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DANGIT....im going to post this one more [censored] time.....you say its not right that they camp there getting xp. Well when someone PL's you its MOSTLY a SG member or a friend of yours. When they roll and ALT you have to do the same thing. So actually you DO work i know it is hard for you to believe now shut the [censored] up. You have not provided any good evidence that power leveling is cheating. It is a way to get by the low levels but its not a way to get 50 in one hour by expoiting the system. You still have to do work when getting powerleveled so quit saying that PL'ers do nothing....i have to do my part jsut like my buddys do theres. Like i said get some strong evidence other than comparing it to crimes, and saying its wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, overly sensitive much? If this issue is causing you that much pain I suggest you stop reading the thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Poster's just worried someone is going to abscond with his PIE.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
no im just tired of the "fact" being stated that there is no work being done....i have posted that once and people are still saying"i have a problem with blah blah blah" when the majority that get pl'ed and pl do what i said...they pl each others alts. Not sensitive just tired of the lies.
[ QUOTE ]
no im just tired of the "fact" being stated that there is no work being done....i have posted that once and people are still saying"i have a problem with blah blah blah" when the majority that get pl'ed and pl do what i said...they pl each others alts. Not sensitive just tired of the lies.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I'm tired of people on the Broadcast channel spamming "PL me, Plz". If everyone is trading work with their Supergroups, no one would be doing this. Looks like an existence proof that at least *someone* or many someones are not using the method you're describing.
Anyway, I would be willing to bet 50k influence that this method of gaining XP is eliminated in the next couple months. Not because anyone whined, but because it was never intended and it slipped through the cracks when the game went live.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
[ QUOTE ]
If Pling isn't cheating then it is the most unusual game feature that I have ever seen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gee how is having friends higher level than you cheating? Seriously, the anti-PL people really sound like they're sickly jealous of those who can progress levels faster than them.
~ A A ~